1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,800 Speaker 1: So Kiwis are leaving the country and record numbers stats. 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: New Zealand figures show New Zealand had an annual net 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,319 Speaker 1: migration gain of nearly fifty four thousand people in the 4 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: year to August. However, departures are the highest on record 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: at one hundred and thirty four thousand, driven by more 6 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: than eighty one thousand Kiwis heading overseas. So one hundred 7 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: and eighty eight thousand migrants entered the country, with Indian 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,280 Speaker 1: citizens making up the largest group. I might have been 9 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: talking about that. Francis Collins is a psychology sociology professor 10 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,480 Speaker 1: at Auckland University, and he joins me. Now, Hi, Francis, 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: franciscans to talk Nice to talk to you too, Hey. 12 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: How do these levels compare to the brain drain of 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:43,920 Speaker 1: twenty eleven twenty twelve. 14 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 2: Well, it's actually quite markedly different in a lot of ways. 15 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 2: Back in twenty eleven twenty twelve, we were seeing a 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 2: lot of New Zealand citizens apartment. It's not quite as 17 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 2: high as we're seeing now, but pretty high. But I'll 18 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: get you. The difference back then was that the arrival 19 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: of non New Zealand citizens, so people from India you mentioned, 20 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 2: but from China, from the Philippines are much lower back then, 21 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: so we actually have an overall net loss of people 22 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:12,559 Speaker 2: through migration, whereas all right now, as you mentioned, even 23 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 2: though the rate's coming down, net migration is very very 24 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 2: high by historical standards. 25 00:01:18,720 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: Do you think this trend of more people leaving and 26 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 1: fewer arriving is going to continue from the levels that we've. 27 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 2: Seen well, so that the flows of New Zealand citizens, 28 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 2: what you can say is that consistently over time there's 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 2: been very large numbers of New Zealand citizens who have 30 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,840 Speaker 2: left New Zealand and not returned. That pattern is very clear. 31 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 2: Since the late nineteen seventies, around eight hundred to eight 32 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty thousand New Zealand citizens have left and 33 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: not come back if we think about overall. But it 34 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: doesn't remain the same all the time, so there's a 35 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 2: lot of evan flows. So there are times when a 36 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:56,920 Speaker 2: level of New Zealand citizens leaving and not returning is 37 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 2: much lower, and there are times like right now, particularly high. 38 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 2: And the same actually goes for migrant arrivals as well, 39 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: which which do it and flow, and they often they're 40 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,920 Speaker 2: often associated with the economic cycle, but also also associated 41 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 2: when you know there are issues around inequality for example, 42 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: that can that can lead to increase increased migration as well. 43 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: What does it mean for our skills? Will shortage our 44 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: labor market? 45 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 2: Well, again, just come back to the point where there 46 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: is a very large number of departure of New Zealand citizens, 47 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: but the net migration rate is positive. In fact, it's 48 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: very high. So arguably there's actually there's actually an increase 49 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 2: in the number of people available or coming to New Zealand. 50 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 2: Many of them will be coming here to work. I 51 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: think the question is the difference between those groups, right, 52 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 2: we're talking about citizens and non citizens, and of course 53 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 2: then the mix of people in different occupations, which which 54 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: would need to get a bit more granular with the 55 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: data to really unpack that a bit more. 56 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: Do you know how we keep people here? It sounds terrible, 57 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: doesn't that we're going to lock among us something in front? 58 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:03,080 Speaker 1: So how do we encourage people to stay in New Zealand? 59 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: You know, the people that we need to stay here? 60 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I mean, from my perspective, we can't. 61 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: You can't keep people here, right, and New Zealand as 62 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 2: a kind of liberal democracy can't enforce some rules of 63 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: departure right, which some countries do do. It's relatively uncommon. 64 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 2: But what we can think about is what kind of 65 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: society do we have. And one of the biggest drivers 66 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: of immigration, and I would argue that New Zealand citizen 67 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 2: immigration is inequality. And it's quite clear that over the 68 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: last few decades inequality in this country has increased. You know, 69 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: it's evident and issues within the health sector and health inequity, 70 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 2: but it's it's evident in housing and affordability, in the 71 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: precarity and the rental housing sector. And I don't think 72 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: that's actually getting any better right now. So while immigration 73 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: is not new, and there's not there's not suddenly a 74 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: new pattern of New Zealand citizens leaving. It's been a 75 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 2: pad for some time. It is we have very high 76 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 2: numbers now, much higher than what used to be the 77 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 2: levels of immigration. I think a lot of that is 78 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 2: to do with the growth of inequality over many decades, 79 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: which you know, it's not really being substantially addressed by governments. 80 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 2: And for me, I would say, you want to address 81 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 2: immigration levels, you need to make me fe in an 82 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: inclusive society where there's a focus on social justice and 83 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 2: to focus on creating opportunities for people to see viable 84 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 2: lives for themselves and for their families. 85 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: Francis, thank you so much for your thoughts. That was psychology, sociology. 86 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: Excuse me, sociology professor at Auckland University, Francis Collins. For 87 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive, listen live to news talks. 88 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: It'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast 89 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:43,840 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio.