1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,972 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talk zed B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,692 --> 00:00:20,693 Speaker 2: Joining us now as Josh Rues. He's an extremism expert 4 00:00:20,692 --> 00:00:24,133 Speaker 2: and associate professor from politics at Deacon University. Who's on 5 00:00:24,213 --> 00:00:26,773 Speaker 2: the line right now, Doctor Rue is very good afternoon 6 00:00:26,773 --> 00:00:28,413 Speaker 2: to you go, Affternoon. 7 00:00:28,973 --> 00:00:32,613 Speaker 3: There's always been extremism, Is there more now? And if so, 8 00:00:32,773 --> 00:00:34,053 Speaker 3: what is causing it? 9 00:00:35,373 --> 00:00:38,852 Speaker 4: Yeah, in particular post COVID, we've seen a significant escalation 10 00:00:39,133 --> 00:00:44,412 Speaker 4: in both societal polarization meaning you know, binary thinking. Everyone 11 00:00:44,492 --> 00:00:48,253 Speaker 4: frames the world in good and evil, but also in extremism, 12 00:00:48,373 --> 00:00:51,732 Speaker 4: and in particular in anti semitism. Post October seven, it 13 00:00:51,853 --> 00:00:54,853 Speaker 4: is absolutely rocket off the chart to here in Australia. 14 00:00:55,213 --> 00:00:56,892 Speaker 3: Right, And how do you combat that? 15 00:00:58,173 --> 00:01:02,973 Speaker 4: Well, it requires really powerful political leadership and bipartisan approaches. 16 00:01:03,053 --> 00:01:06,693 Speaker 4: So we've got to work across political lines, not seek 17 00:01:06,693 --> 00:01:11,573 Speaker 4: the point score, but absolutely stand down on anti semitism 18 00:01:11,653 --> 00:01:17,853 Speaker 4: online and address the permissive environment that's allowed it to flourish. Unfortunately, 19 00:01:18,253 --> 00:01:21,813 Speaker 4: in the last couple of years in particular, there's been 20 00:01:21,853 --> 00:01:23,853 Speaker 4: a lot of permissiveness to this. It's been allowed to 21 00:01:23,853 --> 00:01:25,372 Speaker 4: flourish online and in our. 22 00:01:25,292 --> 00:01:30,773 Speaker 3: Public discourse now, Australian Prime Minister Anthony Albanezi he seid, 23 00:01:30,773 --> 00:01:33,333 Speaker 3: there is no place for this hate violence terrorism in 24 00:01:33,373 --> 00:01:37,293 Speaker 3: our nation. Let me be clear. We will eradicate it. 25 00:01:37,333 --> 00:01:39,572 Speaker 3: Is it possible to eradicate this. 26 00:01:40,973 --> 00:01:43,293 Speaker 4: There's certainly steps that can be taken to hold people 27 00:01:43,292 --> 00:01:48,973 Speaker 4: to account, both spreading hatred online and in public, but 28 00:01:49,093 --> 00:01:53,653 Speaker 4: also in shutting down those platforms, for example, that allowed 29 00:01:53,693 --> 00:01:56,493 Speaker 4: to flourish as well. We've seen this play out in 30 00:01:56,493 --> 00:01:59,653 Speaker 4: a number of ways. We've seen it and the Jewish 31 00:01:59,653 --> 00:02:02,813 Speaker 4: community in Australia in particular are really being squeezed between 32 00:02:02,853 --> 00:02:06,013 Speaker 4: on the one hand, and arts who care for their 33 00:02:06,013 --> 00:02:12,253 Speaker 4: eradication and protesting in the streets carrying antithetic placards, and 34 00:02:12,293 --> 00:02:16,093 Speaker 4: on the other the online environment that's really flourished with 35 00:02:16,293 --> 00:02:21,613 Speaker 4: more the hard left and the illness extremists where they 36 00:02:21,933 --> 00:02:27,732 Speaker 4: conflate Judaism with Zionism, I'm sorry, Zionism and anti Semitism 37 00:02:27,813 --> 00:02:31,813 Speaker 4: and basically say well, we're not anti Semitic, we're just antisionists. 38 00:02:32,333 --> 00:02:35,773 Speaker 4: And that's really also created a space where people can 39 00:02:35,813 --> 00:02:37,293 Speaker 4: say and do what they want and get away with it. 40 00:02:37,813 --> 00:02:41,053 Speaker 2: We are speaking to doctor Josh Roos's Associate Professor of 41 00:02:41,093 --> 00:02:45,252 Speaker 2: Politics at Deacon University. Professor, does this incident suggest there's 42 00:02:45,293 --> 00:02:48,173 Speaker 2: may be some gaps in current threat assessment models at 43 00:02:48,213 --> 00:02:50,532 Speaker 2: governments and police and other security officials use. 44 00:02:52,093 --> 00:02:56,733 Speaker 4: It's certainly incredibly difficult to unpack, particularly with it with 45 00:02:56,813 --> 00:03:01,573 Speaker 4: its two individuals who were related, who had access to 46 00:03:01,613 --> 00:03:05,132 Speaker 4: firearmed and who may not have had a strong online signature. 47 00:03:06,093 --> 00:03:10,573 Speaker 4: The problem is again that it's the ecosystem in which 48 00:03:10,613 --> 00:03:15,532 Speaker 4: they're embedded online and engaging. We know that the Jewish 49 00:03:15,532 --> 00:03:17,933 Speaker 4: community has been telling us about the potential for a 50 00:03:17,972 --> 00:03:22,333 Speaker 4: deadly attack for several years, and quite frankly, we haven't listened. 51 00:03:22,573 --> 00:03:25,973 Speaker 4: The Anti Sevenism on Boys report has been sitting in 52 00:03:25,972 --> 00:03:27,773 Speaker 4: a draw for the best part of four or five months, 53 00:03:28,613 --> 00:03:33,692 Speaker 4: and there's been a strong reluctance to engage with Jewish 54 00:03:33,972 --> 00:03:37,053 Speaker 4: leaders about the dimensions of the threat. Where it has 55 00:03:37,093 --> 00:03:40,853 Speaker 4: been effective is targeting the Iranian ambassador due to Iranian 56 00:03:40,853 --> 00:03:44,613 Speaker 4: sponsorship of terrorism in Australia, but also targeting the extreme right. 57 00:03:45,133 --> 00:03:48,732 Speaker 4: They're much more reluctant to have a conversation about Islamistic 58 00:03:48,733 --> 00:03:54,973 Speaker 4: extremism in particular, and it's intersections with far left extremism. 59 00:03:55,173 --> 00:03:58,853 Speaker 3: So I mean, is this a funding issue or a 60 00:03:58,893 --> 00:04:01,693 Speaker 3: culture issue. Is there an amount of money and resources 61 00:04:01,733 --> 00:04:06,413 Speaker 3: that you could spin to identify these people and protect 62 00:04:06,973 --> 00:04:10,253 Speaker 3: the Jewish community or is this just going to grow 63 00:04:10,293 --> 00:04:13,133 Speaker 3: online if you see what I'm saying. Is there an 64 00:04:13,133 --> 00:04:15,813 Speaker 3: amount of money and resources that the government could throw 65 00:04:15,813 --> 00:04:16,733 Speaker 3: at this and solve it. 66 00:04:18,093 --> 00:04:20,653 Speaker 4: No amount of resources are ever going to solve the 67 00:04:20,693 --> 00:04:26,133 Speaker 4: problem of extremism and terrorism. This is ideologically driven, and 68 00:04:26,213 --> 00:04:29,493 Speaker 4: so someone who wants to carry out an attack will 69 00:04:29,533 --> 00:04:31,373 Speaker 4: at the very least put themselves in a position where 70 00:04:31,373 --> 00:04:35,493 Speaker 4: they could. However, as a case in point for security, 71 00:04:36,093 --> 00:04:39,413 Speaker 4: what we saw was an event on a crowded beach 72 00:04:40,653 --> 00:04:45,933 Speaker 4: on a Sunday afternoon where that attack appears to have 73 00:04:45,973 --> 00:04:48,533 Speaker 4: been carried out for at least five to ten minutes 74 00:04:48,573 --> 00:04:52,213 Speaker 4: based on the video circulating online that I've seen, And 75 00:04:52,253 --> 00:04:54,653 Speaker 4: whilst the police certainly put themselves in harm's way and 76 00:04:54,693 --> 00:04:57,733 Speaker 4: did the best they could, questions must be raised about 77 00:04:57,773 --> 00:05:00,933 Speaker 4: the resources that are available to the very least protect 78 00:05:01,373 --> 00:05:04,173 Speaker 4: the community in the instance of a public event. 79 00:05:04,813 --> 00:05:06,813 Speaker 3: On an individual level, we've got a text to hear 80 00:05:06,853 --> 00:05:08,933 Speaker 3: that says, could you please ask what to do if 81 00:05:08,973 --> 00:05:11,853 Speaker 3: you know someone who is anti Semitic and very loud 82 00:05:11,893 --> 00:05:15,133 Speaker 3: about it online. Is this something that members of the 83 00:05:15,133 --> 00:05:19,013 Speaker 3: public can do when they spot this kind of rhetoric. 84 00:05:20,173 --> 00:05:23,613 Speaker 4: It's really challenging because people who are avoudly and very 85 00:05:23,613 --> 00:05:27,493 Speaker 4: openly anti Semitic have a much deeper set of beliefs 86 00:05:27,493 --> 00:05:31,573 Speaker 4: in which that's embedded, and it's usually about some sort 87 00:05:31,573 --> 00:05:35,893 Speaker 4: of conspiratorial framing of the government, this idea of Jewish 88 00:05:35,893 --> 00:05:39,452 Speaker 4: people behind the scenes pulling strings and making things happen 89 00:05:39,493 --> 00:05:42,453 Speaker 4: and are perceived in justice as they see it in Gaza, 90 00:05:43,053 --> 00:05:45,093 Speaker 4: and so to that extent, it ties into a deeper 91 00:05:45,173 --> 00:05:47,173 Speaker 4: set of beliefs. Now, you can't tell someone who has 92 00:05:47,213 --> 00:05:51,213 Speaker 4: strong beliefs that they're wrong head on, because all the 93 00:05:51,293 --> 00:05:53,293 Speaker 4: research indicates that if you tell someone they're wrong and 94 00:05:53,333 --> 00:05:55,853 Speaker 4: they're just going to dig in further, You've actually got 95 00:05:55,853 --> 00:06:00,493 Speaker 4: to allow them to say their piece, but provide alternative approaches, 96 00:06:00,573 --> 00:06:04,093 Speaker 4: provide alternative viewpoints, and start to get them to question 97 00:06:04,173 --> 00:06:07,133 Speaker 4: those beliefs over time. It's a process that takes a 98 00:06:07,173 --> 00:06:10,013 Speaker 4: significant amount of time, but it's worked that's got to 99 00:06:10,013 --> 00:06:12,213 Speaker 4: be done because this is a problem that's not going 100 00:06:12,293 --> 00:06:13,053 Speaker 4: to go away overnight. 101 00:06:13,493 --> 00:06:17,413 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Doctor Rose, really appreciate your time this afternoon. I 102 00:06:17,453 --> 00:06:19,973 Speaker 2: know you're very busy, so really appreciate you coming on 103 00:06:19,973 --> 00:06:20,573 Speaker 2: the program. 104 00:06:21,053 --> 00:06:21,813 Speaker 4: No problem, thank you. 105 00:06:22,013 --> 00:06:25,173 Speaker 2: That is doctor Josh Russ, Associate Professor of Politics at 106 00:06:25,173 --> 00:06:27,693 Speaker 2: Deacon University in Australia. 107 00:06:27,893 --> 00:06:30,813 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks B listen live on air 108 00:06:31,013 --> 00:06:33,693 Speaker 1: or online, and keep our shows with you wherever you 109 00:06:33,773 --> 00:06:36,213 Speaker 1: go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.