1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,960 Speaker 1: Now a group of lawyers is taking the government to 2 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: court over the emission's reduction plan. The lawyers say that 3 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,239 Speaker 1: the plan is dangerously inadequate and challenges the use of 4 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:13,240 Speaker 1: forestry to offset emissions. Doctor Christina Hood is a climate consultant. Hey, Christina, 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: Hi Thereheather, good to be here. Thank you very much 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: for your time. Now, let's say that they prove their case. 7 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,319 Speaker 1: Can they actually force the government to do something like 8 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: change the plan? 9 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: Well, that's actually what they're asking for. They're asking for 10 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 2: the court to say that the plan is inadequate according 11 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: to what's required under New Zealand law, and then the 12 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: government would have to go back and have a rethink. 13 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: Would the government have to. 14 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, the court can order them to go back and 15 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 2: do a new plan. There was a judicial review about 16 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 2: the missions training scheme a couple of years ago and 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 2: the High Court in that case told the government to 18 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 2: go back and have another thing. Can the government did that. 19 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:57,720 Speaker 1: And can the government tell Can the court tell the 20 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: government what it wants changed, what it wants to see, 21 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: and be quite prescriptive about it. 22 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: That's a little less likely. What's more likely to happen 23 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,640 Speaker 2: is that if the lawyers established that the government hasn't 24 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: taken into account all of the relevant factors when it 25 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: was making the plan. The court could say, when you 26 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: go and have another think, you must consider these aspects 27 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 2: and properly take them into account. Now, what's more about 28 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: how they do it than what the end outcome is. 29 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: One of the things that the lawyers have a problem 30 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: with is the use of forestry and that bang on 31 00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: about that, aren't they because that is actually good. That 32 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: is the weakest part of this plan, isn't it. 33 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a big part of New Zealand's climate 34 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 2: approach for a long time and it's past it's use 35 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,919 Speaker 2: by date. To be honest, we've been using tree planting 36 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: as a substitute for getting on with decarbonizing our economy. 37 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: And you can't do that forever. You can't just keep 38 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:55,920 Speaker 2: planting trees. We are going to have to move at 39 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 2: some point. 40 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: But Christina, we get the bigger problem that we're not 41 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: actually going to even end up planting enough trees, like 42 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: it's going to get to twenty thirty and we're going 43 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: to be so far short on what we're supposed to 44 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: do that we're supposed to send twenty eight billion dollars 45 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 1: or whatever off shorter plant trees and we're just not 46 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: going to do it. 47 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 2: Well, that's a separate that's a separat share that's not 48 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 2: even covered by this challenge. This one is about our 49 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 2: domestic pathway. Our target, unto the Paris Agreement, is a 50 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 2: whole other kettle of fish that the government's not dealing with. 51 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So what's the problem as far as you see 52 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 1: it with planting the trees. 53 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: It's what there's a couple of things. One is just 54 00:02:32,160 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 2: it's a it's a strategy that is that it just 55 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:40,520 Speaker 2: only works in the short term. It's like papering over 56 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: the cracks. You know. We can use it to keep 57 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: emitting and just try and plant enough trees to compensate, 58 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: but we run out of the ability to do that. 59 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 2: You can't do it at global level. There's not enough 60 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: land to plant enough trees on to cover all the 61 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 2: fossil fuel use. And at a global level, we need 62 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 2: to cut fossil fuel emissions by about ninety percent and 63 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: then it might be that nature restoration can kind of 64 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 2: cover the rest of the gap. Christine, we can't do nothing. 65 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: What is motivating these lawyers is someone paying them are 66 00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: they just doing this out of the goodness of their 67 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: own hearts? 68 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: It's pro bono. It's just a group of lawyers who 69 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: are concerned about, you know, a Liverpool future for us 70 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 2: and for our kids and wanting to use their skills 71 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 2: in law to try and do something about it. 72 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: And if this was if this proves to be successful, 73 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: do you think there will be copycat suits around the world. 74 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 2: Well, there's already you know, been lawsuits like this and 75 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: lots of places around the world. In the UK, our 76 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 2: legislation in New Zealand is modeled on what they have 77 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: in the UK, and the UK government's climate plan has 78 00:03:49,240 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: been thrown out twice actually by the courts for being inadequate, 79 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: so it's almost like we are copying them rather than 80 00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: the other way around. 81 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: All right, Christina, thanks very much. I really appreciate your time. 82 00:03:57,520 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: Christina Hood, Climate Consultant. 83 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 84 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: News Talk Set B from four p m weekdays, or 85 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 2: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.