1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,920 Speaker 1: Nichola Willis Finance Ministers with US. Now, Hi, Nikola, Hi, 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: So did you read the Sunday Star Times first or 3 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: did somebody tell you what was in there? 4 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 2: I read it first. I read all my news alerts 5 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: diligently on a Sunday morning. That one was surprising. I 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 2: hadn't expected that. 7 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 1: No, And how do you feel about it? 8 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 2: Well, you know, water off a duck's back. Really the 9 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 2: unfortunate reality of political life as people call your names 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 2: and say mean things. But I always think about other 11 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 2: young women who I want to go into politics, and 12 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 2: I don't want them to think that it's okay to 13 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: have their agenda weaponized against them. And I don't want 14 00:00:38,400 --> 00:00:41,400 Speaker 2: any young woman to think there's a difference between girl 15 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 2: maths and boy maths. It's called maths. 16 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing that's surprised, I think. I mean, 17 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: apart from the gendered put down, which was pretty remarkable 18 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: to read in print. But apart from that, that was 19 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,320 Speaker 1: the thing that really surprised me is that we had 20 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: a woman saying that another woman cannot do maths because 21 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,279 Speaker 1: she is a woman. That's bizarre, isn't it. 22 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is been bizarre, and it's not what you'd 23 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 2: expect to see in twenty twenty. 24 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: Tell me, tell me what you know from this, Nichola. 25 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: Do you want this column taken back? Do you want 26 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: an apology? What do you want? 27 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: I don't want it to be about me. I want 28 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 2: it to be about getting the truth out there, because 29 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,840 Speaker 2: the thing that has irritated me and my female colleagues, 30 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 2: who are also insulted terribly in that column is a 31 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 2: lot of half truth, smith leading information, lack of facts, 32 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,320 Speaker 2: and the facts on what we've done on pay equity 33 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 2: are quite different from many of the claims being made publicly, 34 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:32,199 Speaker 2: and I want that information out there. So I hope 35 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: that a few people click on my response to the 36 00:01:35,240 --> 00:01:38,760 Speaker 2: Weekend Star Tribe and read those facts. That's what's important. 37 00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: Don't worrying nobody read any of the misfacts because nobody 38 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: got past that word. 39 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:45,040 Speaker 2: That was fairly Shockum. 40 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: Yeah we got there and went, oh okay, that's the 41 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: end of that column. 42 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 2: Hey, you know that is a nice side of it. 43 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: Though heither, there's been some real solidarity. I've had messages 44 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 2: from women I haven't seen in years, just saying, you know, 45 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 2: I might not even be a NAT, but you should 46 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 2: not have to tolerate that someone sent me flowers. I've 47 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 2: had a real outpouring of suprecy. 48 00:02:04,400 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: Sure is I. 49 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,000 Speaker 2: Actually a former MP. I'll keep her name private because 50 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 2: you know I haven't been disclosed to bring her into 51 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: the public domain, but a former MP. And she just said, 52 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 2: there are no words, so I'm sending you flowers instead. 53 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: That's a very nice thing to do. Now, listen, how 54 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: much did you save by revamping the pay equity scheme? 55 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 2: Looks significant money billions, and it is the case that 56 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 2: without that money we would have far fewer positive initiatives 57 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: in our budget that we think are necessary and a 58 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: priority for New Zealand right now. But the most important 59 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 2: thing for me always as we've been looking at this 60 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 2: issue for some months, has been we've got to get 61 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 2: it right in principle, because I believe in the idea 62 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 2: of pay equity. I know not everyone does, but I do. 63 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: That is the idea that some women have been systemically 64 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 2: undervalued and underpaid because they are women, and I think 65 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: there should be correction for that in law. So I 66 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 2: wanted to be sure that any regime we put up 67 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 2: to replace the existing regime would uphold that principle before 68 00:03:05,760 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: we then move to make changes. Having satisfied ourselves of that, 69 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,520 Speaker 2: I was happy to go through with it. And it 70 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 2: is the case that if we hadn't done it, labor 71 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: scheme was in such a mess that it was exploding 72 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,239 Speaker 2: in costs. It was going to cost billions more in 73 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: the future. It was going to lead to borrowing extra 74 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,839 Speaker 2: taxes or massive spending cuts. And so the decision we've 75 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 2: come to is the right one. It's the financially sound one, 76 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 2: and it's the principled one. 77 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: Have you saved seventeen billion? 78 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: I'm not going to give you the number today, Heather, 79 00:03:33,760 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: that's what it would well be now. She's what she's 80 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 2: done is looked at how much money was in contingency 81 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: and the budget. That contingency number covers more than pay equity. 82 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: Okay, so is it more than ten billion. 83 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: It's a really big number. I'm going to reveal it 84 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: on budget day. The only but that's a bit subtle 85 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 2: about it, is we have retained funding for future pay 86 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 2: equities settlements, so we've kept money in contingency. 87 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: Yep. 88 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 2: That number I can't disclose because obviously it's a sensitive 89 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: figure for commercial negotiations for employment bargaining. That will occur. 90 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 2: So there's some complexity in what I can reveal about 91 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: how big the costs had got, how much we'd saved, 92 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 2: and how much we've kept in reserve. But I'm going 93 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 2: to be as candid as I can within those bounds. 94 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: On budget, I'll tell you what I did. What I 95 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: don't understand is why you're being honest with us today 96 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 1: and saying, yep, we've saved a whole bunch of money 97 00:04:25,240 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 1: for the budget. But then Chris lux In last week 98 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: was like, no, it's not about the budget. It clearly is. 99 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: Well, look, right on day one I said, look, this 100 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,160 Speaker 2: is going to deliver bit billiance. I was absolutely today. 101 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 1: And as to going out and saying it's not about 102 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 1: the budget, well, I. 103 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 2: Think he was probably reflecting the point I made to 104 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: you earlier, which is that actually, this is still a 105 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 2: principal change. It's not as if we were prepared to 106 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: do absolutely anything to fund the budget, which was how 107 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,479 Speaker 2: some were characterizing it. We first needed to satisfy ourselves 108 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,240 Speaker 2: that we could do this in a way that was 109 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: fair and just, and then having determined that, then the 110 00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 2: savings flow. 111 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: I don't believe that. Do you know why I don't 112 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: believe that because if you, guys, if this wasn't about 113 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:04,840 Speaker 1: the budget, you wouldn't have done it last week in 114 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: the space of a couple of days. 115 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,720 Speaker 2: Like, well, yeah, we'll just be clear about that. We 116 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 2: were thinking about it ages ago. I first brought a 117 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 2: paper on pay equity to cabinet in April last year. 118 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:21,320 Speaker 2: We first started discussing legislative change in December, having made 119 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: cabinet decisions in March. We didn't need to get the 120 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 2: legislation passed in order for those savings to be realized. 121 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: Why didn't Bunch talk about this publicly so you could 122 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: bring people with. 123 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: You, Because our concern was that we would create a 124 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 2: limbo land for many months in which people would not 125 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 2: know whether their current claims were going to be progressed, 126 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: the basis on which they were going to be assessed, 127 00:05:44,240 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 2: and we'd create a situation in which you'd have a 128 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 2: group of people thinking, should I be rushing in my 129 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 2: claim or should I be changing the nature of my claim. 130 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: This way, we've provided certainty, clarity. The new regime is 131 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: now a place that's very us clean inside how they 132 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 2: want to submit their. 133 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 1: But it's magnanimous of you, but you've ended up shocking 134 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 1: people to such an extent that it's backfired on you, guys, 135 00:06:04,680 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: I would say, don't you think. 136 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: Well, I think the truth will out. I trust New 137 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: Zealanders to see through the heat and the noise and 138 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 2: to get their heads around this. To reject the ridiculous 139 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 2: claims by labor and others that we've somehow got rid 140 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,280 Speaker 2: of equal pay, which remains as protected in law as 141 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 2: it always has been. To reject the idea that we're 142 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 2: actually cutting women's pay. No, all those nurses, all those 143 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 2: social workers who got pay equity settlements, they're still going 144 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 2: to be paid. And to reject the idea that we're 145 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 2: somehow getting rid of the pay equity. Actually, there will 146 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 2: be future settlements, so that information, once people have it 147 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 2: in their heads, I trust that they'll see this as 148 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 2: a sensible decision. 149 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 1: I was reading about Adrian Orr's last meeting with you 150 00:06:43,279 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: and US and Christian Hawksby was at the Select Committee 151 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 1: and say, I can't remember what it was about. He 152 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: doesn't remember, do you? 153 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah? I do. There were three topics we discussed. We 154 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: discussed capital adequacy ratios, We discussed the Reserve Banks funding agreement, 155 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 2: and we discussed the Reserve Bank's progress on the banking 156 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,920 Speaker 2: competition issues, which I had written expectations to them about 157 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 2: earlier in. 158 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: The year now, So I think this is quite suspicious, Nikola, 159 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: that it feels to me like this bust up has 160 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: been potentially about the capital adequacy ratios, right, because you 161 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: asked for multiple meetings with him about the capital requirements 162 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 1: and he said I can't do it, he can't do it. 163 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: Februy seven, can't do it, February ten, can't do it, whatever, whatever, 164 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 1: And then while you are getting that locked into the diary, 165 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: you ask Treasury whether it's possible for you to actually 166 00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 1: override him and force him to do what you want. 167 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: So was that what it was really about? 168 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: No, As I said, there were three topics up for discussion, 169 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,840 Speaker 2: the Reserve Banks funding agreement and its progress on banking. 170 00:07:41,640 --> 00:07:44,040 Speaker 1: No, I mean, why is that why he quit? 171 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: I know, I don't think that that is why he quit. 172 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: As I've said, his reasons for resigning are his own 173 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 2: there for him to express, not for me. But actually, 174 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,720 Speaker 2: the relationship I have with the Reserve Bank is also 175 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 2: with its board, who actually were very involved in the 176 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 2: decision to do their own review of capital adequacy reflecting 177 00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: the views of the board members that that was an 178 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 2: appropriate thing to do, reflecting what has been widespread public 179 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 2: discussion and critique of their position and their desire to 180 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: check it and to defend it. 181 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: So he didn't quit because you try to force him 182 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: to change the capital requirements. 183 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 2: I don't think that's the case. 184 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: He don't think that's the case. 185 00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: As I say, his reasons for his resignation are his own. 186 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 2: He worked through his employment relationship with the Reserve Bank Board, 187 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 2: not me. I'm not his employer. I was advised of 188 00:08:35,160 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: his resignation. I was told that there was personal reasons 189 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,720 Speaker 2: for it. Yeah, and actually that's where it's ats. 190 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: Okay, But so if you don't think that's the case, 191 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: it means it is also possible that it is the case. 192 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: Like it's possible, you know. 193 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 2: If you want the answers to these questions, the person 194 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,559 Speaker 2: to speak with is Adrian or himself. I can't tell 195 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 2: you what went through his mind and what fact did 196 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 2: in his decision. I suspect, like most people who decide 197 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: to end a job, there was all sorts of things 198 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: going on for the houses. 199 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, not for the not For the first time, you've 200 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: suggested that we interview somebody else and it's not a 201 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: bad idea. Actually, we will put a thank you very much. 202 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 2: I've got a future as a radio producer. 203 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:19,560 Speaker 1: Well, when Andrea is done with you, you might need it. 204 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: That's Nichola Willis's finance minister, obviously. For more from Heather 205 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,319 Speaker 1: Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to news Talks. It'd be 206 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:31,359 Speaker 1: from four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.