1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,200 Speaker 1: Last time we heard from our former UK High Commissioner 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Phil GoF, he was asking a question that would get 3 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:06,440 Speaker 1: him sacked. Of course, the Foreign Minister said his position 4 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: was untenable, and that was that. Phil Goff his lander 5 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: back in the country and he's with us. Very good 6 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: morning to you. 7 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:12,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, good morning, Mike. 8 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: Good to be back on the land. 9 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,479 Speaker 2: Oh, fantastic being back in New Zealand. I'm not really 10 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 2: looking forward to going from one winter and for another, 11 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 2: but we've had a great week up to the rain 12 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: we're getting now, so lovely to be back home. 13 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: On the day you asked the question, did you know 14 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: what you were doing? 15 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I've given some thought to it, and I 16 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 2: thought there was a serious and important question that, excuse me, 17 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 2: needed to be asked about the Trump administration's policy and 18 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 2: seeking to appease Russia, which was clearly what they were doing. 19 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: Did they understand the lessons of history? Did they understand 20 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,800 Speaker 2: the things that you and I know about that had 21 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: happened pre World War Two when Neville Chamberlain had tried 22 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 2: to appease Hitler. And the result of appeasing and aggressor 23 00:00:58,120 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: is not to satisfy them but to wear their appetite 24 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: for more regression. I don't believe that the Trump administration 25 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 2: understands that. I thought it was a serious and important 26 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 2: question and it needed to be asked. 27 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: Was it a question more of a former foreign minister 28 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:13,160 Speaker 1: than a high commissioner? 29 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,480 Speaker 2: Probably? Look, a career civil servant is trained to be 30 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: very cautious, not to express any strong value that they 31 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 2: may hold personally in the question they asked. I thought 32 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: it was a critical question. The people in the room 33 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: thought it was a critical question, but no other diplomat 34 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: wanted to ask it. I'd just had a conversation though, 35 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: the previous night with the spouse of one of my 36 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 2: colleagues who was a high commissioner, and she was a teacher, 37 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 2: and she talked about the playground and the bully would 38 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: abuse the victim. But the people that enabled that to 39 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 2: happen were the people that stayed silent. I didn't want 40 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 2: to be an enabler. I think that, frankly, the lies 41 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 2: that Trump was talking about Zelensky being a dictator Ukraine 42 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 2: starting the war needed to be called out. He needed 43 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 2: to be challenged. Otherwise we were complicit in what he 44 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 2: was doing, and what he was doing was betraying the 45 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 2: struggle of the Ukrainian people for their freedom, their democracy 46 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: and their nationhood. 47 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,080 Speaker 1: How big a surprise was the sacond. 48 00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 2: I thought I'd taken the question right up to the line. 49 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: I didn't think that I'd crossed the line, and I 50 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: believed actually that the question I was asking must have 51 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 2: been the question on the minds of the New Zealand 52 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: government and certainly most of the people that I was 53 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 2: talking to back home in New Zealand as well. But 54 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: it's the minister's prerogative to decide who are his head submission. 55 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: I have no complaint about removal from office. That was 56 00:02:37,639 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 2: the price, if that was the price that I had 57 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 2: to pay for saying something that I thought was really important, 58 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: unprepared to pay the price. 59 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: Was it convenient to Sakia? Was there an element of 60 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: that to it or not? 61 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: It's really hard to know. I mean, I have had 62 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 2: no conversation with the Foreign Minister. He said that it 63 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: was a difficult decision and he held me in high 64 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: esteem personally if I'd been Foreign minister. So would I 65 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: have done that to somebody that had asked a question 66 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: that probably I thought was a relevant question. The answer 67 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 2: is no. I wouldn't have done that, but then he's 68 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: the minister. It's his prerogative. I've got no complaint about 69 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 2: his action. 70 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 1: What are you going to do now? 71 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: I do a bit of thinking and writing. I've been 72 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: approached by a publisher to see if I wanted to 73 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: write a book, and I'm going to take a while 74 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: working on the farm. I've doing a bit of chainsaw 75 00:03:24,520 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 2: therapy and wood splitting therapy. I'll think about it for 76 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 2: a while and then consider my next steps, but I 77 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 2: don't think it'll be going back into politics. 78 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 1: Good to catch up. Appreciate at Phil Goff for my 79 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: UK High Commissioner. Last time I saw him I was 80 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: in his office in London, just ahead of the coronation. 81 00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 2: For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast, listen live to 82 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 2: news talks that'd be from six am weekdays, or follow 83 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.