Speaker 1: Kyota. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this
Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the
Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. A twenty four year old woman has
Speaker 1: shared her identity in order to talk publicly about an
Speaker 1: inappropriate relationship she was involved in with a police officer.
Speaker 1: Alex MacPhail earlier spoke to The Herald anonymously about her
Speaker 1: relationship with christ Church based detective Luke Fazakerlie, whom she
Speaker 1: met when she was twenty two and reporting a rape
Speaker 1: to the police. She complained about his behavior to the
Speaker 1: Independent Police Conduct Authority, a complaint that has now been
Speaker 1: reopened after the Herald. Reporting today on the Front Page,
Speaker 1: NZ Herald reporter Katie Harris, who has covered Alex's case,
Speaker 1: as with us to discuss why this particular case is
Speaker 1: making waves on both sides of the Tasman and we'll
Speaker 1: also hear from Alex in her own words about what
Speaker 1: she experienced. Katie, can you tell us a bit about
Speaker 1: Alex McPhail and how you two came to be in contact.
Speaker 2: So Alex is a twenty four year old flight attendant
Speaker 2: from christ Church. Now we actually first spoke. I think
Speaker 2: it was a year or maybe two years ago, and
Speaker 2: it was unrelated to the story that we're speaking about now,
Speaker 2: but it was because Alex had a suspicion that a
Speaker 2: person I had previously written about had also sexually assaulted her. Now,
Speaker 2: I had interviewed a different girl about a serious sexual
Speaker 2: soul allegation, and she believed she had been assaulted by
Speaker 2: the same person. And so we did have a quick
Speaker 2: call and we were able to work out that it
Speaker 2: was the same person. But I didn't do anything at
Speaker 2: that stage because she was interested in going down the
Speaker 2: police route and I didn't want to impact that investigation process.
Speaker 2: And police did eventually charge that person with sexual assault
Speaker 2: in relation to alex case.
Speaker 1: And then, so how did she bring up the case
Speaker 1: that we are talking about.
Speaker 2: We hadn't spoken in quite a while, but I got
Speaker 2: an email from her out of the blow, just wanting
Speaker 2: to chat about something that had happened since we last spoke.
Speaker 2: And from there that's when this inappropriate relationship that she
Speaker 2: says really impacted her occurred.
Speaker 1: And can you describe the relationship we're talking about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, when Alex went to the police, an officer
Speaker 2: brought her into a room and she was introduced to
Speaker 2: a detective called Luke phy Ezacally and she was told
Speaker 2: that Luke would be managing her case. And things between
Speaker 2: her and Luke started off very professionally. He would text
Speaker 2: her updates about the case, but as time went by,
Speaker 2: she says, things became inappropriate. For example, there was one
Speaker 2: text on New Year's Eve where she says she kind
Speaker 2: of felt like that was something had changed, you know,
Speaker 2: Normally a police officer wouldn't text happy New Year's Eve,
Speaker 2: you know. And from their things developed, and she says
Speaker 2: they sort of had a comp about how they had
Speaker 2: feelings for each other, and she alleges that he encouraged
Speaker 2: her to send him sort of weird text so that
Speaker 2: he would get taken off the case. And then, she
Speaker 2: alleges the same day he was taken off her case,
Speaker 2: they had sex.
Speaker 3: The text messages and the phone calls they started professional,
Speaker 3: and then over time got more and more personal, more
Speaker 3: and more inappropriate. Luke really painted himself as this hero.
Speaker 3: He kind of said all the right things, and because
Speaker 3: I hadn't told my friends and family what I was
Speaker 3: going through, he was really my only support and he
Speaker 3: encouraged me to lean on him and so through that
Speaker 3: a intimate relationship developed. Now I can see that he
Speaker 3: took advantage of me when I was in an extremely
Speaker 3: vulnerable position, and that doesn't make it a relationship where
Speaker 3: two adults decide to come.
Speaker 1: Together, even before the messaging became flirtatious, or however you
Speaker 1: want to describe it. Is that sort of texting back
Speaker 1: and forth between an officer and a rape complainant normal.
Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people they might be
Speaker 2: surprised that a lot of these conversations do happen over text,
Speaker 2: because this is just how we interact now, and so
Speaker 2: it might be the police officer sending you your file
Speaker 2: number saying this is the process, just an update we've
Speaker 2: interviewed this person, or for example, we're busy with other
Speaker 2: jobs right now, but as soon as we have time,
Speaker 2: we'll get to the next stage of this investigation. So
Speaker 2: it is quite common to be liaising in that way.
Speaker 2: What's not common, though, what shouldn't be common, is things
Speaker 2: progressing into an appropriate relationship.
Speaker 1: So it might be worth clarifying what exactly it says
Speaker 1: in the Code of Conduct about relationships like this. Because
Speaker 1: he's not actually accused of anything criminal, is that right?
Speaker 2: No, he's not accused of anything criminal whatsoever. But the
Speaker 2: code of conduct is very clear and it states that
Speaker 2: staff must not enter into a sexual or intimate relationship
Speaker 2: with anyone they meet and a professional capacity if an
Speaker 2: imbalance of power exists or if that person is vulnerable.
Speaker 2: And I think in this case, it's quite clear that
Speaker 2: she tacks those boxes and there is an inherent and
Speaker 2: balance of power just in that dynamic. Not to mention
Speaker 2: that she was in a vulnerable position.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because I thought it was interesting that, like
Speaker 1: the way their relationship started, she was describing him as
Speaker 1: like a hero at one point.
Speaker 2: Which is quite natural for a lot of people when
Speaker 2: you have gone through something traumatic and someone comes along,
Speaker 2: like a police officer or a police detective, it is
Speaker 2: quite common to get quite close with people when you've
Speaker 2: gone through something traumatic and they are there to help you.
Speaker 2: In my view, it's on the detective or the person
Speaker 2: in power to ensure that that relationship stays professional.
Speaker 1: And so he was removed from the case. And then
Speaker 1: what happened.
Speaker 2: So he was removed from the case, and at some
Speaker 2: point during the investigation, she says she told his superiors
Speaker 2: that there was an intimate relationship going on between them,
Speaker 2: but at the time she was like, please, this is
Speaker 2: all my fault. I don't want him to get in trouble. Now,
Speaker 2: sheerly Jesus is quite a big issue and they should
Speaker 2: have intervened then, and he should have been fired or
Speaker 2: lost his job then, in her view, because she believes
Speaker 2: no police officer should have a sexual relationship with someone
Speaker 2: whose case they have managed, a case like this, for example,
Speaker 2: a rape case that didn't happen, and while he wasn't
Speaker 2: her detective anymore, they were continuing this romantic relationship while
Speaker 2: her sexual assault complaint was still being investigated, and it
Speaker 2: was ongoing from there. The relationship eventually broke down and
Speaker 2: she sought mental health support, and it was during that
Speaker 2: process where a doctorate and some other medical professionals advised
Speaker 2: her that this relationship, in their view, was not okay
Speaker 2: and that she should.
Speaker 1: What was the reaction from the superiors? Do we know?
Speaker 2: We know that he wasn't removed from his job. We
Speaker 2: know that he is still employed by New Zealand Police.
Speaker 2: It's not clear if anything else has happened from their
Speaker 2: Police haven't provided more context on what occurred after that report.
Speaker 1: So in your discussions with Alex. What sort of motivated
Speaker 1: her to go public with us?
Speaker 2: She sort of has term motivations. On the one hand,
Speaker 2: she wants to make sure this doesn't happen again, and
Speaker 2: she felt really concerned that by staying quiet it could
Speaker 2: happen again. On the other hand, she wanted to come
Speaker 2: forward and speak up and be named now because when
Speaker 2: she was a child, she says, she was sexually abused
Speaker 2: and she did speak up then, but she was told
Speaker 2: that she would have to endure it. She wanted to
Speaker 2: speak up now for that little girl and to show
Speaker 2: other women that they can speak up up and that
Speaker 2: women should be believed.
Speaker 3: The push to go public with this story came from
Speaker 3: the realization that it wasn't just a personal problem between
Speaker 3: Luke and I. It was actually a huge problem with
Speaker 3: the New Zealand Police and how they hold their officers accountable,
Speaker 3: the expectations that they have for the officers when working
Speaker 3: with vulnerable people.
Speaker 1: You've obviously reported on a lot of cases like this.
Speaker 1: How rare is it for someone to actually go public
Speaker 1: and name themselves.
Speaker 2: It is real, it's so vulnerable, and so it's so
Speaker 2: brave to come out and publicly name yourself in association
Speaker 2: with something that historically was really stigmatized and really shamed. However,
Speaker 2: I have noticed throughout my career that there has been
Speaker 2: an increase in victims and survivors of sexual assault wanting
Speaker 2: to be publicly named. I would say it would happen
Speaker 2: once a year five years ago, whereas now I'm probably
Speaker 2: doing this like two or three times at least a year.
Speaker 1: So what actually happened initially with the employment process after
Speaker 1: her complaint was made, because I know there was a
Speaker 1: job in Queensland.
Speaker 2: She said he'd already applied to work in Queensland and
Speaker 2: so he had this job offer on the table. He
Speaker 2: was due to start later in the year. And so
Speaker 2: when I did go to Queensland Police for comment, they
Speaker 2: responded and said that the job offer had been rescinded
Speaker 2: while an investigation was occurring. Now they haven't been able
Speaker 2: to update me on whether that investigation is done, or
Speaker 2: whether he still has a job offer or if it's
Speaker 2: still rescinded. But it is interesting how swiftly they acted
Speaker 2: and in her view, in contrast with how New Zealand
Speaker 2: Police have not undertaken. From her view, you know, swift
Speaker 2: action in this case.
Speaker 1: Has Luke responded adult to your reporting or the case
Speaker 1: in anyway. No.
Speaker 2: The only reaction I've had from Luke is when I
Speaker 2: approached him for comment and he said that his superiors
Speaker 2: had advised him that a media response had already been
Speaker 2: prepared and he had nothing further to add.
Speaker 1: And so do we know what the sort of next
Speaker 1: steps in this case would be?
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the IPCA has reopened the complaint against him
Speaker 2: following our reporting, and I've given Alex a time frame
Speaker 2: of about two to four weeks, which is what it
Speaker 2: usually takes them to assess. So from there, hopefully the
Speaker 2: result will be shared with Alex, since you'll learn what,
Speaker 2: if any, action will be taken.
Speaker 1: What's been sort of the response from the general public
Speaker 1: to your reporting.
Speaker 2: The response that I have seen on social media has
Speaker 2: been real shock, because I think most people assumed that
Speaker 2: if a cop had breached the Code of conduct, which
Speaker 2: Alex obviously feels that he has, and according to the
Speaker 2: Code of Conduct this does seem like quite a clear breach,
Speaker 2: people believe that they should no longer be working, and
Speaker 2: so almost all of the public reaction I've seen has
Speaker 2: just been real shock. At New Zealand police, but also
Speaker 2: support of Alex, and that was part of the reason
Speaker 2: why she also felt safe enough to come forward, was
Speaker 2: because she had seen the response to that first story
Speaker 2: and felt, I guess less nervous about fully being named
Speaker 2: and photographed in relation to this case.
Speaker 3: I think what I needed when I was twelve and
Speaker 3: experiencing that I needed someone to speak up for me.
Speaker 3: I needed someone to care to go back and tell
Speaker 3: her that I'm that person for her, that she becomes
Speaker 3: that person for herself. I wish I could tell her that.
Speaker 1: And what has Alex said about like the response to
Speaker 1: the story.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the second one's only just come out, and
Speaker 2: she's just, you know, obviously taking it all in and
Speaker 2: just quite shocked. I think she's also quite proud of herself,
Speaker 2: and she did a really good job articulating her thoughts
Speaker 2: and feelings, especially over a video. But after that first
Speaker 2: story came out, she sent me a message, and this
Speaker 2: is quite a common message that I get because I
Speaker 2: do this type of reporting a lot, and she said,
Speaker 2: I feel like I have found my voice again, or
Speaker 2: have my voice back. That sort of makes doing this
Speaker 2: tough job worth it sometimes.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Katie.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at zidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to the
Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,
Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.