1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Kyota. I'm Richard Martin in for Chelsea Daniels and this 2 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,320 Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the 3 00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. A twenty four year old woman has 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: shared her identity in order to talk publicly about an 5 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: inappropriate relationship she was involved in with a police officer. 6 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: Alex MacPhail earlier spoke to The Herald anonymously about her 7 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: relationship with christ Church based detective Luke Fazakerlie, whom she 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: met when she was twenty two and reporting a rape 9 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: to the police. She complained about his behavior to the 10 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: Independent Police Conduct Authority, a complaint that has now been 11 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,520 Speaker 1: reopened after the Herald. Reporting today on the Front Page, 12 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: NZ Herald reporter Katie Harris, who has covered Alex's case, 13 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: as with us to discuss why this particular case is 14 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: making waves on both sides of the Tasman and we'll 15 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 1: also hear from Alex in her own words about what 16 00:01:00,480 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: she experienced. Katie, can you tell us a bit about 17 00:01:10,240 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: Alex McPhail and how you two came to be in contact. 18 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: So Alex is a twenty four year old flight attendant 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: from christ Church. Now we actually first spoke. I think 20 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 2: it was a year or maybe two years ago, and 21 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 2: it was unrelated to the story that we're speaking about now, 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 2: but it was because Alex had a suspicion that a 23 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: person I had previously written about had also sexually assaulted her. Now, 24 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,880 Speaker 2: I had interviewed a different girl about a serious sexual 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 2: soul allegation, and she believed she had been assaulted by 26 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 2: the same person. And so we did have a quick 27 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 2: call and we were able to work out that it 28 00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 2: was the same person. But I didn't do anything at 29 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: that stage because she was interested in going down the 30 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: police route and I didn't want to impact that investigation process. 31 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: And police did eventually charge that person with sexual assault 32 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: in relation to alex case. 33 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: And then, so how did she bring up the case 34 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: that we are talking about. 35 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: We hadn't spoken in quite a while, but I got 36 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 2: an email from her out of the blow, just wanting 37 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 2: to chat about something that had happened since we last spoke. 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:18,360 Speaker 2: And from there that's when this inappropriate relationship that she 39 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 2: says really impacted her occurred. 40 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: And can you describe the relationship we're talking about. 41 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, when Alex went to the police, an officer 42 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:30,519 Speaker 2: brought her into a room and she was introduced to 43 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: a detective called Luke phy Ezacally and she was told 44 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 2: that Luke would be managing her case. And things between 45 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: her and Luke started off very professionally. He would text 46 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,399 Speaker 2: her updates about the case, but as time went by, 47 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 2: she says, things became inappropriate. For example, there was one 48 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:50,120 Speaker 2: text on New Year's Eve where she says she kind 49 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: of felt like that was something had changed, you know, 50 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:56,119 Speaker 2: Normally a police officer wouldn't text happy New Year's Eve, 51 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: you know. And from their things developed, and she says 52 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 2: they sort of had a comp about how they had 53 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: feelings for each other, and she alleges that he encouraged 54 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 2: her to send him sort of weird text so that 55 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 2: he would get taken off the case. And then, she 56 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 2: alleges the same day he was taken off her case, 57 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 2: they had sex. 58 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 3: The text messages and the phone calls they started professional, 59 00:03:20,320 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 3: and then over time got more and more personal, more 60 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 3: and more inappropriate. Luke really painted himself as this hero. 61 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: He kind of said all the right things, and because 62 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 3: I hadn't told my friends and family what I was 63 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: going through, he was really my only support and he 64 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 3: encouraged me to lean on him and so through that 65 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 3: a intimate relationship developed. Now I can see that he 66 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: took advantage of me when I was in an extremely 67 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 3: vulnerable position, and that doesn't make it a relationship where 68 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 3: two adults decide to come. 69 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: Together, even before the messaging became flirtatious, or however you 70 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 1: want to describe it. Is that sort of texting back 71 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: and forth between an officer and a rape complainant normal. 72 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: I think for a lot of people they might be 73 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 2: surprised that a lot of these conversations do happen over text, 74 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: because this is just how we interact now, and so 75 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: it might be the police officer sending you your file 76 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: number saying this is the process, just an update we've 77 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: interviewed this person, or for example, we're busy with other 78 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 2: jobs right now, but as soon as we have time, 79 00:04:41,440 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: we'll get to the next stage of this investigation. So 80 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: it is quite common to be liaising in that way. 81 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 2: What's not common, though, what shouldn't be common, is things 82 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: progressing into an appropriate relationship. 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: So it might be worth clarifying what exactly it says 84 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: in the Code of Conduct about relationships like this. Because 85 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,720 Speaker 1: he's not actually accused of anything criminal, is that right? 86 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 2: No, he's not accused of anything criminal whatsoever. But the 87 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 2: code of conduct is very clear and it states that 88 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: staff must not enter into a sexual or intimate relationship 89 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: with anyone they meet and a professional capacity if an 90 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: imbalance of power exists or if that person is vulnerable. 91 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 2: And I think in this case, it's quite clear that 92 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 2: she tacks those boxes and there is an inherent and 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: balance of power just in that dynamic. Not to mention 94 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: that she was in a vulnerable position. 95 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, because I thought it was interesting that, like 96 00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: the way their relationship started, she was describing him as 97 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: like a hero at one point. 98 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: Which is quite natural for a lot of people when 99 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: you have gone through something traumatic and someone comes along, 100 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 2: like a police officer or a police detective, it is 101 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 2: quite common to get quite close with people when you've 102 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: gone through something traumatic and they are there to help you. 103 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: In my view, it's on the detective or the person 104 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: in power to ensure that that relationship stays professional. 105 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: And so he was removed from the case. And then 106 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: what happened. 107 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: So he was removed from the case, and at some 108 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 2: point during the investigation, she says she told his superiors 109 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: that there was an intimate relationship going on between them, 110 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 2: but at the time she was like, please, this is 111 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: all my fault. I don't want him to get in trouble. Now, 112 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: sheerly Jesus is quite a big issue and they should 113 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 2: have intervened then, and he should have been fired or 114 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,320 Speaker 2: lost his job then, in her view, because she believes 115 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: no police officer should have a sexual relationship with someone 116 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 2: whose case they have managed, a case like this, for example, 117 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,559 Speaker 2: a rape case that didn't happen, and while he wasn't 118 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 2: her detective anymore, they were continuing this romantic relationship while 119 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: her sexual assault complaint was still being investigated, and it 120 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: was ongoing from there. The relationship eventually broke down and 121 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 2: she sought mental health support, and it was during that 122 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 2: process where a doctorate and some other medical professionals advised 123 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 2: her that this relationship, in their view, was not okay 124 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,080 Speaker 2: and that she should. 125 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: What was the reaction from the superiors? Do we know? 126 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: We know that he wasn't removed from his job. We 127 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: know that he is still employed by New Zealand Police. 128 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: It's not clear if anything else has happened from their 129 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: Police haven't provided more context on what occurred after that report. 130 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 1: So in your discussions with Alex. What sort of motivated 131 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 1: her to go public with us? 132 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: She sort of has term motivations. On the one hand, 133 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: she wants to make sure this doesn't happen again, and 134 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 2: she felt really concerned that by staying quiet it could 135 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 2: happen again. On the other hand, she wanted to come 136 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 2: forward and speak up and be named now because when 137 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 2: she was a child, she says, she was sexually abused 138 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: and she did speak up then, but she was told 139 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 2: that she would have to endure it. She wanted to 140 00:07:56,440 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 2: speak up now for that little girl and to show 141 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 2: other women that they can speak up up and that 142 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 2: women should be believed. 143 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: The push to go public with this story came from 144 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 3: the realization that it wasn't just a personal problem between 145 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 3: Luke and I. It was actually a huge problem with 146 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 3: the New Zealand Police and how they hold their officers accountable, 147 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 3: the expectations that they have for the officers when working 148 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 3: with vulnerable people. 149 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: You've obviously reported on a lot of cases like this. 150 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: How rare is it for someone to actually go public 151 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: and name themselves. 152 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: It is real, it's so vulnerable, and so it's so 153 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: brave to come out and publicly name yourself in association 154 00:08:55,720 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 2: with something that historically was really stigmatized and really shamed. However, 155 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 2: I have noticed throughout my career that there has been 156 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 2: an increase in victims and survivors of sexual assault wanting 157 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 2: to be publicly named. I would say it would happen 158 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 2: once a year five years ago, whereas now I'm probably 159 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: doing this like two or three times at least a year. 160 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: So what actually happened initially with the employment process after 161 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: her complaint was made, because I know there was a 162 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: job in Queensland. 163 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 2: She said he'd already applied to work in Queensland and 164 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: so he had this job offer on the table. He 165 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 2: was due to start later in the year. And so 166 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,679 Speaker 2: when I did go to Queensland Police for comment, they 167 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: responded and said that the job offer had been rescinded 168 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: while an investigation was occurring. Now they haven't been able 169 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 2: to update me on whether that investigation is done, or 170 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 2: whether he still has a job offer or if it's 171 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 2: still rescinded. But it is interesting how swiftly they acted 172 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: and in her view, in contrast with how New Zealand 173 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 2: Police have not undertaken. From her view, you know, swift 174 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 2: action in this case. 175 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: Has Luke responded adult to your reporting or the case 176 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: in anyway. No. 177 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: The only reaction I've had from Luke is when I 178 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 2: approached him for comment and he said that his superiors 179 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: had advised him that a media response had already been 180 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: prepared and he had nothing further to add. 181 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: And so do we know what the sort of next 182 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: steps in this case would be? 183 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, So the IPCA has reopened the complaint against him 184 00:10:22,880 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 2: following our reporting, and I've given Alex a time frame 185 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: of about two to four weeks, which is what it 186 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: usually takes them to assess. So from there, hopefully the 187 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,560 Speaker 2: result will be shared with Alex, since you'll learn what, 188 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 2: if any, action will be taken. 189 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: What's been sort of the response from the general public 190 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: to your reporting. 191 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,679 Speaker 2: The response that I have seen on social media has 192 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 2: been real shock, because I think most people assumed that 193 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: if a cop had breached the Code of conduct, which 194 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: Alex obviously feels that he has, and according to the 195 00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: Code of Conduct this does seem like quite a clear breach, 196 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 2: people believe that they should no longer be working, and 197 00:11:01,559 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 2: so almost all of the public reaction I've seen has 198 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: just been real shock. At New Zealand police, but also 199 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 2: support of Alex, and that was part of the reason 200 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 2: why she also felt safe enough to come forward, was 201 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 2: because she had seen the response to that first story 202 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: and felt, I guess less nervous about fully being named 203 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 2: and photographed in relation to this case. 204 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 3: I think what I needed when I was twelve and 205 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 3: experiencing that I needed someone to speak up for me. 206 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 3: I needed someone to care to go back and tell 207 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: her that I'm that person for her, that she becomes 208 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 3: that person for herself. I wish I could tell her that. 209 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: And what has Alex said about like the response to 210 00:11:59,200 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: the story. 211 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, the second one's only just come out, and 212 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 2: she's just, you know, obviously taking it all in and 213 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 2: just quite shocked. I think she's also quite proud of herself, 214 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 2: and she did a really good job articulating her thoughts 215 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: and feelings, especially over a video. But after that first 216 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: story came out, she sent me a message, and this 217 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: is quite a common message that I get because I 218 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: do this type of reporting a lot, and she said, 219 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 2: I feel like I have found my voice again, or 220 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 2: have my voice back. That sort of makes doing this 221 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 2: tough job worth it sometimes. 222 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Katie. 223 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: Thank you. 224 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 225 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 226 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: at zidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 227 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills. I'm Richard Martin. Subscribe to the 228 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 229 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.