1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:12,693 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News talks'd be follow 2 00:00:12,773 --> 00:00:16,133 Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,533 --> 00:00:19,013 Speaker 2: I've been talking about cancel culture in the light of 4 00:00:19,253 --> 00:00:22,253 Speaker 2: Jimmy Kimmel Bean suspended. Is that cancel culture or just 5 00:00:22,893 --> 00:00:25,773 Speaker 2: the nature of declining ratings. On the line right now 6 00:00:25,853 --> 00:00:29,093 Speaker 2: is Nathan Sioule. He is with Pillar that is protecting 7 00:00:29,133 --> 00:00:32,013 Speaker 2: individual life, liberty and rights. It's associated with the Free 8 00:00:32,013 --> 00:00:34,772 Speaker 2: Speech Union, and he joins us now, Nathan, good afternoon, 9 00:00:34,893 --> 00:00:35,733 Speaker 2: Good afternoon, gentle. 10 00:00:36,133 --> 00:00:39,693 Speaker 3: Now, Nathan, you obviously support free speech, but what are 11 00:00:39,693 --> 00:00:43,133 Speaker 3: the parameters, I mean, what are the parameters of free speech? 12 00:00:43,173 --> 00:00:46,093 Speaker 3: What should people be allowed to say and not say? 13 00:00:46,092 --> 00:00:46,772 Speaker 3: In your opinion? 14 00:00:46,853 --> 00:00:51,053 Speaker 4: Nathan, Yeah, that's a really good question. Ultimately, there is 15 00:00:51,053 --> 00:00:53,533 Speaker 4: a very high threshold, especially here in New Zealand, where 16 00:00:53,613 --> 00:00:57,293 Speaker 4: incitement to violence is effectively the limitation now insite of 17 00:00:57,293 --> 00:00:58,892 Speaker 4: the violence is a very clear definition, and the law 18 00:00:58,933 --> 00:01:03,333 Speaker 4: has to be eminent, possible and prescriptive. But speech should 19 00:01:03,373 --> 00:01:07,973 Speaker 4: be defined and determined in terms of what is good, bad, right, wrong, 20 00:01:08,373 --> 00:01:11,253 Speaker 4: by the marketplace of ideas and not regulators and affiliates 21 00:01:11,293 --> 00:01:13,732 Speaker 4: who can pick our speech and what's on our airways. 22 00:01:15,333 --> 00:01:20,053 Speaker 3: Okay, So I mean this is slightly this is probably 23 00:01:20,133 --> 00:01:23,173 Speaker 3: a slightly complex gray area question. But what do you 24 00:01:23,292 --> 00:01:29,133 Speaker 3: find define as cancelation And is cancelation in an attack 25 00:01:29,212 --> 00:01:29,893 Speaker 3: on free speech? 26 00:01:31,493 --> 00:01:33,932 Speaker 4: Absolutely? I think the response to speech you don't like 27 00:01:34,292 --> 00:01:36,453 Speaker 4: isn't to cancel it. It should be to challenge. It 28 00:01:36,453 --> 00:01:40,452 Speaker 4: should be to have a broader, more in depth conversation 29 00:01:40,572 --> 00:01:43,773 Speaker 4: where it's public and visible and people can participate. When 30 00:01:43,813 --> 00:01:45,732 Speaker 4: we force these people back into their corners, I think 31 00:01:46,053 --> 00:01:49,493 Speaker 4: it was you saying that just earlier, Tyler, they don't 32 00:01:49,813 --> 00:01:53,413 Speaker 4: stop holding these views. In fact, they actually grow more 33 00:01:53,893 --> 00:01:56,293 Speaker 4: sort of into these views, and they build a following, 34 00:01:56,293 --> 00:01:57,773 Speaker 4: and it can become a lot more toxic than if 35 00:01:57,813 --> 00:02:01,773 Speaker 4: we have an outright open conversation, celebrating debate and hosting debate, 36 00:02:01,813 --> 00:02:05,653 Speaker 4: because disagreement is actually part of free speech. Cancelation is 37 00:02:05,693 --> 00:02:09,173 Speaker 4: only going to do detrimental things too. Open society and 38 00:02:09,173 --> 00:02:10,933 Speaker 4: a free society that they're honors speech. 39 00:02:11,573 --> 00:02:14,133 Speaker 3: What about the rights of a corporation when they're losing 40 00:02:14,173 --> 00:02:17,333 Speaker 3: money over what one of their employees is saying and 41 00:02:17,773 --> 00:02:21,653 Speaker 3: they get rid of that employee or silence them. Where 42 00:02:21,653 --> 00:02:24,453 Speaker 3: does that sit in their discussion of free speech? 43 00:02:25,373 --> 00:02:28,013 Speaker 4: Well, that's an entirely different category, right. Obviously, when you 44 00:02:28,053 --> 00:02:30,133 Speaker 4: work for someone, you're under their employee and you are 45 00:02:30,173 --> 00:02:36,012 Speaker 4: subjects to a degree to their will in their way. However, 46 00:02:37,013 --> 00:02:41,893 Speaker 4: being pressured publicly and externally by cancel culture and culture 47 00:02:41,933 --> 00:02:45,013 Speaker 4: warriors and then bowing to that does not set it 48 00:02:45,173 --> 00:02:48,493 Speaker 4: a good president for anybody in any employment anywhere. So 49 00:02:48,532 --> 00:02:50,653 Speaker 4: we need to be really really careful about is this 50 00:02:50,693 --> 00:02:52,773 Speaker 4: a speech issue or is this purely their performance issue? 51 00:02:52,813 --> 00:02:55,053 Speaker 4: And make sure that that is what is being presented 52 00:02:55,853 --> 00:02:56,173 Speaker 4: when it. 53 00:02:56,133 --> 00:02:59,293 Speaker 2: Comes to cancel culture. Is it, fear to say, it 54 00:02:59,333 --> 00:03:02,852 Speaker 2: comes from both sides of political ideology, and is there 55 00:03:02,972 --> 00:03:06,692 Speaker 2: just that inherent nature of almost a revenge element when 56 00:03:06,693 --> 00:03:11,013 Speaker 2: it comes to tribes or groups jumping on particular people 57 00:03:11,493 --> 00:03:13,252 Speaker 2: who they don't like what Love said. 58 00:03:14,813 --> 00:03:17,453 Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say, sir. What I've observed over the 59 00:03:17,532 --> 00:03:19,253 Speaker 4: last few years of being a free speech advocate and 60 00:03:19,252 --> 00:03:22,412 Speaker 4: defender is that people will often be principal lists and 61 00:03:22,853 --> 00:03:25,893 Speaker 4: issue based defenders, and it comes from both sides just so, right, 62 00:03:26,453 --> 00:03:29,133 Speaker 4: but using the same tactics and the same tools of 63 00:03:29,133 --> 00:03:31,253 Speaker 4: those people that you disagree with to try and inflict 64 00:03:31,293 --> 00:03:36,653 Speaker 4: the same undemocratic and punishment that is undue in a 65 00:03:36,693 --> 00:03:39,133 Speaker 4: civil society, it never works out for anyone because you, 66 00:03:39,253 --> 00:03:41,213 Speaker 4: just like I said, you further entrenched the other side. 67 00:03:41,413 --> 00:03:44,133 Speaker 4: And when this, when the pendulum swings, which it always does, 68 00:03:44,373 --> 00:03:46,413 Speaker 4: it comes back ten times more toxic. 69 00:03:47,573 --> 00:03:50,173 Speaker 3: So there's sort of another aspect of this, especially in 70 00:03:50,213 --> 00:03:52,773 Speaker 3: the case we're talking about. What about indirect restrictions on 71 00:03:52,853 --> 00:03:56,133 Speaker 3: free speech, Like when powerful people push and call for 72 00:03:56,213 --> 00:03:58,093 Speaker 3: you to lose your job, they may not direct the 73 00:03:58,213 --> 00:04:02,373 Speaker 3: law against you as such, but still create a climate 74 00:04:02,493 --> 00:04:05,133 Speaker 3: due to their power and their influence where your rights 75 00:04:05,173 --> 00:04:05,933 Speaker 3: are restricted. 76 00:04:07,173 --> 00:04:09,093 Speaker 4: Well, you're right, and that's that's probably what we need 77 00:04:09,093 --> 00:04:10,573 Speaker 4: to step back and look at. This isn't just about 78 00:04:10,653 --> 00:04:13,293 Speaker 4: Jimmy Kimmel suppression. This is about who gets to decide 79 00:04:13,333 --> 00:04:15,693 Speaker 4: what is and isn't allowed. Is it the marketplace of 80 00:04:15,773 --> 00:04:18,853 Speaker 4: ideas or is it people in power, people in positions 81 00:04:18,893 --> 00:04:20,653 Speaker 4: who have the ability to pressure, whether it be through 82 00:04:20,693 --> 00:04:24,653 Speaker 4: financial manipulation or just through exercising the influence this it's 83 00:04:24,693 --> 00:04:26,933 Speaker 4: a really dangerous precedent and a chilling effect for any 84 00:04:26,973 --> 00:04:29,973 Speaker 4: host or journalist in any industry in the media, and 85 00:04:30,053 --> 00:04:32,613 Speaker 4: if we have a media that is beholden to investors 86 00:04:33,013 --> 00:04:36,573 Speaker 4: and to political sort of ideology. We don't have a 87 00:04:36,573 --> 00:04:38,773 Speaker 4: free media. We've lost the power of the media to 88 00:04:38,813 --> 00:04:41,533 Speaker 4: hold power to account because now power dictates what that 89 00:04:41,573 --> 00:04:43,693 Speaker 4: media can and can't say through force. 90 00:04:44,253 --> 00:04:49,053 Speaker 3: Yeah and so as This is probably a truism, but 91 00:04:49,213 --> 00:04:51,093 Speaker 3: is the real test of how much you believe in 92 00:04:51,173 --> 00:04:54,173 Speaker 3: free speech, how much you support it when it is 93 00:04:54,493 --> 00:04:58,373 Speaker 3: a free speech that yeah, so, how am I saying this? 94 00:04:59,053 --> 00:05:02,653 Speaker 3: The real test through state free speech is basically, when 95 00:05:02,693 --> 00:05:04,813 Speaker 3: it's against you, you support it, and when it's for you, 96 00:05:04,813 --> 00:05:06,733 Speaker 3: you support it. If you see what I'm saying, you know. 97 00:05:07,133 --> 00:05:10,333 Speaker 4: Exactly, you know you Sorry, I would say free speech 98 00:05:10,373 --> 00:05:13,253 Speaker 4: only matters when it protects speech you don't like. Yeah, yeah, 99 00:05:13,333 --> 00:05:15,493 Speaker 4: It's not about what you're willing to endorse. It's about 100 00:05:15,493 --> 00:05:18,573 Speaker 4: what you're willing to allow other people to do within 101 00:05:18,773 --> 00:05:23,733 Speaker 4: the legitimacy of their own freedom. If we all just cancel, canceled, cancel, 102 00:05:24,173 --> 00:05:27,053 Speaker 4: what actually ends up happening is there's no opportunity to 103 00:05:27,133 --> 00:05:32,093 Speaker 4: progress things like information, understanding knowledge. We need a society 104 00:05:32,093 --> 00:05:34,173 Speaker 4: that can handle disagreement and debate. You don't have to 105 00:05:34,213 --> 00:05:35,973 Speaker 4: agree with what someone says, but you have to be 106 00:05:36,053 --> 00:05:39,333 Speaker 4: willing to challenge them openly and at least express your ideas. 107 00:05:39,413 --> 00:05:41,533 Speaker 4: You can't just call them a horrible person, spit on 108 00:05:41,573 --> 00:05:44,413 Speaker 4: them and walk away. Make your case, let the marketplace 109 00:05:44,413 --> 00:05:47,013 Speaker 4: of ideas decide who is right, and at the end 110 00:05:47,053 --> 00:05:48,973 Speaker 4: of the day you can agree to disagree, or you 111 00:05:49,013 --> 00:05:50,773 Speaker 4: might have learned something, or you might have convinced someone 112 00:05:50,773 --> 00:05:51,693 Speaker 4: to join your side. 113 00:05:52,013 --> 00:05:55,253 Speaker 2: Really interesting discussion, Nathan, Thank you so much for joining us. 114 00:05:55,293 --> 00:05:57,133 Speaker 2: Really great to chat and we'll get you on another time. 115 00:05:57,853 --> 00:05:58,093 Speaker 1: Cool. 116 00:05:58,133 --> 00:05:58,613 Speaker 4: Thanks so much. 117 00:05:58,613 --> 00:05:58,892 Speaker 2: Guys. 118 00:05:59,533 --> 00:06:02,213 Speaker 1: For more from News Talks at b listen live on 119 00:06:02,253 --> 00:06:05,253 Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever 120 00:06:05,293 --> 00:06:07,813 Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on Irradio.