1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,360 Speaker 1: With us. Now is Nikola Willis the Finance Minister. High 2 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Nikola Hi Ever, now is it true that you've asked 3 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,920 Speaker 1: the public service bosses to find savings ahead of the budget. 4 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 2: Again, I've been telling the public service bosses and ministers 5 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 2: to find savings every day since we came into government. 6 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: My message has been consistent, which is you should always 7 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: be looking for efficiencies, ways of doing things better and 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 2: more effectively, finding dollars that are tied up in the 9 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: back office that could be put into the frontline for KIWIS. 10 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 2: That's been a perpetual mission OAR government. 11 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: So no renewed push ahead of the budget. 12 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 2: Well, we're always pushing for it. And of course part 13 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,840 Speaker 2: of the budget is that we want to fund additional 14 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:42,919 Speaker 2: services for KIWIS, whether that's more funding for schools, more 15 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,199 Speaker 2: funding for hospitals, and so we're always saying to public servants, 16 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 2: the more you find us in savings, the more we 17 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: can put into those things. So you have the tigest 18 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: part of the budget. 19 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: Of how much you want them to find. 20 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 2: Well, when I go into the budget, I've always got 21 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: two tallies. On one side, I've got the tally of 22 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: all of the things I want to do and that 23 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 2: I want to fund that. I think that I would 24 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 2: be in our aspiration. And then on the other tally, 25 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,679 Speaker 2: I've got what are the dollars I can put towards 26 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,679 Speaker 2: that without blowing out the debt and the spending, And 27 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 2: so how much we do depends on how much we save, 28 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: and how much we save depends on how much we do. 29 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 2: So it's an iterative process. 30 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: Okay, So why is David Seymour not involved this year 31 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: for the first time? 32 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: Oh, he is involved. That that article missed the fact 33 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 2: that he is one of the budget ministers. Well, he 34 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: is a budget minister, and have him on the show. 35 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: He'll confirm for you that we've already had budget in. 36 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,440 Speaker 1: That he is not involved in the cost savings. 37 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 2: What he means is he doesn't have a specific delegation 38 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:46,119 Speaker 2: to go off and do an independent savings exercise, which 39 00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 2: was something we specifically did in last year's budget. He 40 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: doesn't have that, But I tell you, across his portfolios 41 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 2: and across his ministers and the act Party's portfolios, I 42 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: have no doubt they'll be doing that. 43 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: Why doesn't he have a specific job this time? 44 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: Because we're running the process from the center. He supports 45 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: me in that process. I call him my fiscal friend 46 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: because he. 47 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: So Have you asked him not to help this time? 48 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: Well, no, it's just the last time I asked him 49 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 2: to lead a specific exercise, and this year I haven't 50 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:16,799 Speaker 2: repeated this. 51 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:18,839 Speaker 1: Is it true that he found three billion dollars worth 52 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: of savings last time, but then all the minister's vetoed 53 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: it and it ended up as only being one hundred 54 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: and fifteen million. 55 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: I wouldn't characterize it that way. 56 00:02:26,639 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: No, well I would, And is it true? 57 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't characterize it that way. How would you 58 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: characterizals that were put Well, some of the proposals that 59 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 2: were put for directly contradicted commitments from various political parties 60 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: or were things that would undermine initiatives that we had elsewhere. 61 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 2: So I don't think we're actionable. 62 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, think that. 63 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't want to. I don't want to get 64 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: into a tit for tat, as I say, we're working 65 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 2: together to deliver a good Is he doing. 66 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: A lot of testing at the moment, Nikola? 67 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,920 Speaker 2: It feels like no, No, I don't think he is. 68 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: But I think journalists like you like to invite people 69 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 2: like me to say things that can be taken out 70 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: of context and characterized that way. We're working together on 71 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 2: the budget, we have shared objectives. 72 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: Now, what is going on with Simon Watts? Is he 73 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: or is he not? Because he has said both ways 74 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 1: and I am so confused. Now is he not going 75 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:20,760 Speaker 1: to buy offshore carbon credits? 76 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 2: He's not going to do it, So why is he. 77 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 1: Setting up the mechanism to do it. 78 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 2: Well, as you know, good old James Shaw signed us 79 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: up to this NDC commitment so that it goes above 80 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 2: and beyond our domestic emission reduction targets, and we've got 81 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: a commitment there. So he's exploring, well, what are the 82 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: ways that we could meet that commitment? But the reality 83 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 2: is we're not going to be buying overseas carbon credits. 84 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 2: That won't be how we do it. We're not telling 85 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: the billions of dollars off. 86 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 1: Okay, So are you telling me that when he tells 87 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: newsroom that he is prepared to pull the trigger on 88 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: buying those credits and he has mechanisms and deals in 89 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: place that would allow him to do that, he's just 90 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: playing pretend. 91 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: Well, the mechanisms that he's talking about are things like 92 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 2: the fact that New Zealand has a lot of technology 93 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: that is heading towards being commercialized that could be valuable 94 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: for New Zealand domestically but also internationally. He's talking about 95 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: the fact that, of course we do work with our 96 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: Pacific partners, in particular on cl climate adaptation projects and 97 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 2: other assistants with them and their emissions. So there are 98 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: things that we contribute internationally already and are likely to 99 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: contribute in future. And I think he's just looking at 100 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: what are all the ways that we can consider our gresth. 101 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no, hold no. He is very clear in 102 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:44,799 Speaker 1: this that he is talking about buying from other countries' 103 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: carbon credits, right, So if we're not going to do it, 104 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,840 Speaker 1: then why is he preparing those deals? 105 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 2: Well, look, you'll have to talk to him about that. 106 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 2: But when it's send all money, does. 107 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: Your finance minister or why is he doing this? 108 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: Well, you've heard what I've got to say on it, 109 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: don't you. We will not be sending billions of dollars 110 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: offshore to buy cap. 111 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: So then why is a minister wasting his time doing this? 112 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: Is he playing pretend? 113 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: Well, I think he's making sure that he has a 114 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 2: set of options available for the Cabinet and for us 115 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 2: to deliberate on. But it's not just me saying we're 116 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 2: not sending billions of dollars off shore. The Prime Minister, you. 117 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: Know, you know how this looks. I mean basically what 118 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: it is is if you there will be people who 119 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 1: want you to buy those credits, who are going to 120 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: be like, yay, the government's doing it. And what it 121 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: does is for people like me who don't want you 122 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,559 Speaker 1: to send twenty four billion dollars off shore, it freaks 123 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: us out because it looks like you're doing it. 124 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: Well, look, I think you as I said, he's looking 125 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 2: at a number of mechanisms, some of which might be 126 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 2: technology transfer in others, and he's looking at what the 127 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 2: option Isn't. 128 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: This part of the problem with your government at the 129 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: moment is that you guys are playing both sides instead 130 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: of just being really clear about what you're actually doing. 131 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 2: How much clearer can I be and can the Prime 132 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,479 Speaker 2: Minister be that we are not sending billions? 133 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's you're but can you see the problem for 134 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: the rest of us. You'll say saying that while your 135 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: minister strikes up deals that allows you to potentially. 136 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:08,839 Speaker 2: Do it well, I think it's you have to Simon 137 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 2: Watts to get well. I think Simon Watts is the 138 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 2: right person to characterize his comments and give you a 139 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: detailed response on that. I'm not going to get inside 140 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 2: his mind and start giving you answers. He will have 141 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: something to say on that, so I think talk to 142 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 2: him about it. 143 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: We'll get him on. Now. Is Winston getting ready to 144 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:31,159 Speaker 1: play you guys off against each other? You guys against No. 145 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,279 Speaker 2: That's not my sense at all. I actually, when I 146 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 2: look at what he's doing, he's looking at a weak 147 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 2: Labor Party who are putting forward silly policies like additional tax, 148 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: have a pretty weak team, and he's thinking about all 149 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: of the votes he can steal from them. 150 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: Okay, and do you think that in the end, your 151 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 1: National colleagues will choose Chris Luxon over Chris Bishop. 152 00:06:59,040 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 2: Yes. 153 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:00,960 Speaker 1: What makes you so sure? 154 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:07,239 Speaker 2: Well, we've got a Prime minister who is delivering significant reform, 155 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 2: has excellent ministers, delivering the policies that National campaigned on, 156 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 2: and working towards the vision that our members believe in, 157 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 2: that our candidates believe in, that our MP's believe in, 158 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 2: and our MP's value his leadership and want to win 159 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 2: the next election. 160 00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 1: Has somebody sat down with Bish and gone, mate, what's 161 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: going on here? 162 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:36,560 Speaker 2: Well? Look, I think Christopher Bishop is an extremely important 163 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 2: part of the National Party team. He is our campaign manager. 164 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: He is the person driving what I think will be 165 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 2: the most significant economic reform of this government, which is 166 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:51,239 Speaker 2: replacing the Resource Management Act. He will vary shortly announce 167 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 2: an overhaul of regional government that streamline. 168 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 1: Has anyone sat down with him and going what's up? 169 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 2: When I sit down with Chris Bishop all the time, 170 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 2: I talked to him all the time. I don't have 171 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: secret to anyone who new Lands that he's on here. 172 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: With all the rumors about you you launching a coup, well, I. 173 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: Think we all agree that you guys in the media, 174 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 2: I don't like to put you all under the same brand. 175 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: Welcome back. 176 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: The truth is you have been having this debate with 177 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: yourselves four years now, every few months the same thing. 178 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 2: Let's have a little discussion about whether or not all 179 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 2: as well in the National Party camp. Let's let's read 180 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: what connect it together? 181 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: Your Prime minister is like the most unpopular prime minister 182 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: in modern history. That's why do you know what matters? 183 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 2: What matters is leadership, strength, conviction, clarity and popularity. That's 184 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: nice to have, but it's not a censure. I tell 185 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 2: you who had lots of popularity. Her name was just 186 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:49,560 Speaker 2: Cinda Rdurn and what she delivered for the country was 187 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,199 Speaker 2: an absolute mess. So I look for a bit more 188 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 2: than popularity in my prod. 189 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: Mister Nicola, thanks for your time. Appreciated. Nichola Willis the 190 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: Finance Minister. For more from Heather Dup and Drive, listen 191 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: live to news talks. It'd be from four pm weekdays, 192 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.