1
00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:12,013
Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

2
00:00:12,413 --> 00:00:16,173
Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

3
00:00:16,813 --> 00:00:19,813
Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

4
00:00:19,853 --> 00:00:24,933
Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of this now the Layton

5
00:00:25,053 --> 00:00:27,413
Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news.

6
00:00:27,213 --> 00:00:27,733
Speaker 2: Talks it B.

7
00:00:28,093 --> 00:00:31,653
Speaker 3: Welcome to podcast two hundred and forty seven for July seventeen,

8
00:00:31,733 --> 00:00:35,453
Speaker 3: twenty twenty four. When I framed this podcast at the

9
00:00:35,613 --> 00:00:38,573
Speaker 3: end of last week, there was no way of knowing

10
00:00:38,733 --> 00:00:41,733
Speaker 3: the political temperature chains waiting in the wings, and I

11
00:00:41,813 --> 00:00:45,413
Speaker 3: state the obvious. Just prior to recording. On Wednesday morning,

12
00:00:45,493 --> 00:00:48,973
Speaker 3: I was listening to the most recent opinions on what

13
00:00:49,093 --> 00:00:53,333
Speaker 3: took place in Butler, Pennsylvania a few days ago. As expected,

14
00:00:53,413 --> 00:00:57,133
Speaker 3: there are many and varied opinions. In the second interview,

15
00:00:57,213 --> 00:01:00,413
Speaker 3: George Friedman offers his thoughts and the connection of the

16
00:01:00,453 --> 00:01:03,893
Speaker 3: attempted assassination of Donald Trump to what he wrote in

17
00:01:04,013 --> 00:01:08,093
Speaker 3: the book The Storm Before the Calm. But first, in

18
00:01:08,133 --> 00:01:12,293
Speaker 3: a Jordan Williams, co founder of the Taxpayers Union, a

19
00:01:12,333 --> 00:01:16,333
Speaker 3: discussion which I based on the suggestion that Christopher Luxon

20
00:01:16,493 --> 00:01:21,053
Speaker 3: should consult with the Estonians read their tax system the

21
00:01:21,093 --> 00:01:23,213
Speaker 3: best in the world. I might add while they were

22
00:01:23,413 --> 00:01:27,373
Speaker 3: both attending the NATO conference in Washington, but Jordan and

23
00:01:27,413 --> 00:01:31,853
Speaker 3: I covered much more regarding the palace state of New Zealand,

24
00:01:32,013 --> 00:01:34,493
Speaker 3: and I think you'll find it very good listening. Now,

25
00:01:34,493 --> 00:01:36,373
Speaker 3: I think you'll find in both the interviews there is

26
00:01:37,053 --> 00:01:40,573
Speaker 3: as much comment as is needed in one podcast. So

27
00:01:40,613 --> 00:01:44,613
Speaker 3: I'm going to add nothing new apart from at the

28
00:01:44,733 --> 00:01:48,253
Speaker 3: back end of this podcast, i'll read you the opinion

29
00:01:48,373 --> 00:01:52,733
Speaker 3: of one retired senator on what took place in Butler.

30
00:01:53,173 --> 00:02:03,733
Speaker 3: But first, in just a moment, Jordan Williams, there are

31
00:02:03,973 --> 00:02:06,893
Speaker 3: essential fat nutrients that we need in our diet as

32
00:02:06,933 --> 00:02:10,093
Speaker 3: the body can't manufacture them. These are omega three and

33
00:02:10,133 --> 00:02:14,213
Speaker 3: Amega six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination of fish

34
00:02:14,253 --> 00:02:18,093
Speaker 3: oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides

35
00:02:18,133 --> 00:02:21,093
Speaker 3: an excellent source of Omega three and Omega six fatty

36
00:02:21,133 --> 00:02:24,973
Speaker 3: acids in their naturally existing ratios. The omega six from

37
00:02:25,093 --> 00:02:28,493
Speaker 3: evening primrose oil assists the omega three fish oil to

38
00:02:28,533 --> 00:02:31,733
Speaker 3: be more effective. Equisine is a high quality fish oil

39
00:02:31,733 --> 00:02:35,533
Speaker 3: supplement enriched with evening primrose oil that works synergistically for

40
00:02:35,693 --> 00:02:40,373
Speaker 3: comprehensive health support. Source from the deep sea sardines, Anchovisa

41
00:02:40,453 --> 00:02:44,453
Speaker 3: Magril provide essential Amiga three fatty acids in their purest

42
00:02:44,493 --> 00:02:48,333
Speaker 3: form without any internal organs or toxins. Every batch is

43
00:02:48,373 --> 00:02:50,933
Speaker 3: tested for its purity before it's allowed to be sold.

44
00:02:51,213 --> 00:02:54,973
Speaker 3: Equisine supports cells to be flexible, so important to support

45
00:02:55,093 --> 00:03:00,453
Speaker 3: healthy blood flow and overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood,

46
00:03:00,493 --> 00:03:04,093
Speaker 3: balance and mental clarity and focus in children, all the

47
00:03:04,093 --> 00:03:07,253
Speaker 3: way to supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and

48
00:03:07,373 --> 00:03:10,133
Speaker 3: healthy eyes as we get older. E was in as

49
00:03:10,133 --> 00:03:13,573
Speaker 3: a premium high grade fish and evening primrose oil to

50
00:03:13,653 --> 00:03:16,613
Speaker 3: be taken in addition to a healthy diet and is

51
00:03:16,933 --> 00:03:20,213
Speaker 3: only available from pharmacies and health stores. Always read the

52
00:03:20,293 --> 00:03:23,893
Speaker 3: label and users directed and if symptoms persist, seeing your

53
00:03:23,933 --> 00:03:27,213
Speaker 3: healthcare professional. Farmer broker Auckland.

54
00:03:37,013 --> 00:03:37,813
Speaker 2: Layton Smith.

55
00:03:39,093 --> 00:03:42,013
Speaker 3: I'm looking at a headline that arrived in my inbox

56
00:03:42,013 --> 00:03:43,773
Speaker 3: a few days ago, and I'll read it to you

57
00:03:43,773 --> 00:03:45,413
Speaker 3: in just a second. Before that, I want to quote

58
00:03:45,413 --> 00:03:49,893
Speaker 3: you something from the back of a book. In twenty thirteen,

59
00:03:49,933 --> 00:03:52,813
Speaker 3: a couple of political troublemakers called David Farr and Jordan

60
00:03:52,893 --> 00:03:56,693
Speaker 3: Williams created what they called the New Zealand Taxpayers Union.

61
00:03:57,253 --> 00:04:00,853
Speaker 3: The country had never had anything quite like it. Taking

62
00:04:00,893 --> 00:04:03,933
Speaker 3: a cue from similar advocacy groups abroad, the new group

63
00:04:04,013 --> 00:04:09,973
Speaker 3: set itself against unaccountable government spending, physical, wasteful and unnecessary

64
00:04:10,093 --> 00:04:13,973
Speaker 3: tax Now. I don't know that there would be anybody

65
00:04:13,973 --> 00:04:16,413
Speaker 3: listening to this podcast who would disagree with any of

66
00:04:16,453 --> 00:04:19,133
Speaker 3: those things and not be right behind this group. They

67
00:04:19,133 --> 00:04:21,253
Speaker 3: have since been joined in their quest by two hundred

68
00:04:21,293 --> 00:04:24,813
Speaker 3: thousand Kiwi well Wishes, along with an absolute pig of

69
00:04:24,853 --> 00:04:28,933
Speaker 3: a mascot called Porky the WTATA, and they have just

70
00:04:29,053 --> 00:04:32,653
Speaker 3: recently celebrated their tenth birthday. They published this book, The

71
00:04:32,693 --> 00:04:36,933
Speaker 3: Mission the Taxpayers Union at ten were the Ford by

72
00:04:37,373 --> 00:04:41,173
Speaker 3: Sir Bill English and edited by David Cohen. It was

73
00:04:41,213 --> 00:04:46,333
Speaker 3: the Taxpayers Union that issued the email that I'm talking about,

74
00:04:46,413 --> 00:04:50,853
Speaker 3: and the headline was something that I grasped instantly, p M.

75
00:04:50,973 --> 00:04:56,173
Speaker 3: Luxon needs to talk tax with Estonian Prime Minister And

76
00:04:56,213 --> 00:04:58,773
Speaker 3: it begins like this Taxpayers Union is calling on the

77
00:04:58,773 --> 00:05:02,493
Speaker 3: Prime Minister, Christopher Luxen to discuss tax policy with Estonia,

78
00:05:03,013 --> 00:05:06,733
Speaker 3: which has ranked number one on the tax Foundation International

79
00:05:07,093 --> 00:05:11,373
Speaker 3: Tax Competitiveness Decks for ten years in a row. Estonia

80
00:05:11,453 --> 00:05:15,253
Speaker 3: World leader. Estonia's world leading tax policy has led to

81
00:05:15,413 --> 00:05:21,653
Speaker 3: significant economic growth, far outpacing New Zealand's. It caused me

82
00:05:21,693 --> 00:05:24,173
Speaker 3: to pick up the phone and ring somebody with whom

83
00:05:24,173 --> 00:05:28,213
Speaker 3: i'm familiar, co founder of the Taxpayers Union, Jordan Williams.

84
00:05:28,933 --> 00:05:31,453
Speaker 3: And you said yes, and I'm grateful that you didn't

85
00:05:31,493 --> 00:05:37,133
Speaker 3: thank you. Laden. It was very subdued. You've had a

86
00:05:37,133 --> 00:05:40,813
Speaker 3: busy day, I gather having a big, long day, long

87
00:05:40,853 --> 00:05:41,453
Speaker 3: staff meeting.

88
00:05:41,533 --> 00:05:46,173
Speaker 4: Right, yeah, Well, we sort of every every quarter we

89
00:05:46,213 --> 00:05:50,093
Speaker 4: get together the staff and plan out what's on the

90
00:05:51,133 --> 00:05:54,373
Speaker 4: priority list over the next few months. The nature of

91
00:05:54,493 --> 00:05:59,053
Speaker 4: the organization as it's difficult to plan out much more

92
00:05:59,093 --> 00:06:02,773
Speaker 4: than six months or even a year because you're so

93
00:06:03,013 --> 00:06:05,853
Speaker 4: dependent on the agenda of the day. You know, there's

94
00:06:05,933 --> 00:06:08,773
Speaker 4: some things that we can set the agender on. I'd

95
00:06:08,773 --> 00:06:11,013
Speaker 4: hold up three Waters as being a good example. No

96
00:06:11,053 --> 00:06:13,173
Speaker 4: one was willing to talk about that. No one was

97
00:06:13,613 --> 00:06:17,253
Speaker 4: willing to take on this scary thing called co governance,

98
00:06:17,293 --> 00:06:20,653
Speaker 4: although you couldn't really use that word three years ago

99
00:06:20,693 --> 00:06:25,013
Speaker 4: when we launched that campaign. But on most things, actually

100
00:06:25,173 --> 00:06:27,733
Speaker 4: the agenda is set by the government of the day

101
00:06:28,333 --> 00:06:31,693
Speaker 4: and our job is to make sure whatever debate it

102
00:06:31,813 --> 00:06:34,573
Speaker 4: is that the taxpayer point of view is injected into.

103
00:06:34,413 --> 00:06:38,533
Speaker 3: It good Sticking with Estonia at the moment, Estonia has

104
00:06:38,573 --> 00:06:41,573
Speaker 3: the best tax code in the OECD. It ranks first

105
00:06:41,573 --> 00:06:45,173
Speaker 3: overall and second behind Latvia and Neighbor. I called them

106
00:06:45,253 --> 00:06:50,253
Speaker 3: the three communist kids who grew up anyway, Whilst New

107
00:06:50,333 --> 00:06:53,693
Speaker 3: Zealand ranks highly overall, our corporate tax ranking is where

108
00:06:53,813 --> 00:06:56,333
Speaker 3: in relation to Estonia's.

109
00:06:57,053 --> 00:06:59,773
Speaker 4: Well in terms of the complexity of the tax system,

110
00:06:59,973 --> 00:07:04,333
Speaker 4: and the same that the tax foundations INDIEX Historically since

111
00:07:04,333 --> 00:07:07,253
Speaker 4: the early nineties, we haven't gone too badly. The point

112
00:07:07,333 --> 00:07:11,413
Speaker 4: is that we quickly marching backwards, and that particular media

113
00:07:11,453 --> 00:07:15,693
Speaker 4: release was slightly tongue in cheek focusing at Christopher Luxan

114
00:07:15,933 --> 00:07:20,413
Speaker 4: because the National Party have seemed to adopt it, this

115
00:07:20,533 --> 00:07:25,413
Speaker 4: drift that continued under the last government of going backwards. So,

116
00:07:25,533 --> 00:07:28,813
Speaker 4: for example, the reason Estonia's tax system is really held

117
00:07:28,893 --> 00:07:30,973
Speaker 4: up as a model, there's a couple of things. Firstly,

118
00:07:31,013 --> 00:07:35,613
Speaker 4: they don't tax company profits until they're actually distributed, which

119
00:07:35,693 --> 00:07:39,733
Speaker 4: incentivizes reinvestment back in the good things in terms of

120
00:07:39,733 --> 00:07:45,053
Speaker 4: capital and promoting labor productivity, and that if only we

121
00:07:45,053 --> 00:07:48,253
Speaker 4: could do that here. But the other thing that they

122
00:07:48,293 --> 00:07:51,333
Speaker 4: have is all the rates of twenty percent, which is

123
00:07:51,373 --> 00:07:54,973
Speaker 4: what New Zealand used to strive for of having our

124
00:07:55,013 --> 00:08:00,093
Speaker 4: company rate roughly aligned with our top marginal personal tax rate,

125
00:08:00,213 --> 00:08:02,213
Speaker 4: our trust rate, et cetera.

126
00:08:02,573 --> 00:08:04,813
Speaker 2: You know, labor stuff that up.

127
00:08:04,733 --> 00:08:07,813
Speaker 4: With a thirty nine percent top marginal tax rate, and

128
00:08:07,853 --> 00:08:10,933
Speaker 4: then that's come along and instead of abolishing that, they

129
00:08:10,973 --> 00:08:16,453
Speaker 4: have held on to Labour's money grab on or tax

130
00:08:16,613 --> 00:08:21,453
Speaker 4: rate on trusts. I think that for many farmers across

131
00:08:21,533 --> 00:08:24,533
Speaker 4: New Zealand, it's come into law. Labour kept us. Sorry,

132
00:08:24,613 --> 00:08:27,573
Speaker 4: the new national government kept it. It won't be until

133
00:08:27,613 --> 00:08:30,253
Speaker 4: the end of this tax here there's a nasty surprise

134
00:08:30,773 --> 00:08:33,253
Speaker 4: coming for a heck of a lot of farmers that,

135
00:08:33,573 --> 00:08:38,853
Speaker 4: for quite legitimate reasons hold their businesses or farms and trust. Now,

136
00:08:38,893 --> 00:08:42,133
Speaker 4: for the big end of town, they will reorganize, they

137
00:08:42,253 --> 00:08:46,333
Speaker 4: will shift over to company structures and pay only twenty

138
00:08:46,333 --> 00:08:50,453
Speaker 4: eight percent tax. Meanwhile, for the smaller end of town

139
00:08:51,213 --> 00:08:52,453
Speaker 4: this is going to be very expensive.

140
00:08:52,453 --> 00:08:54,613
Speaker 2: Indeed, But I use it as an example.

141
00:08:54,893 --> 00:08:59,453
Speaker 4: Because it just shows that the government has sort of

142
00:09:00,013 --> 00:09:04,133
Speaker 4: reverted it is not taking a leadership in terms of

143
00:09:04,693 --> 00:09:09,453
Speaker 4: making changes to our tax system that promote economic growth,

144
00:09:10,053 --> 00:09:13,053
Speaker 4: efficiency and attract the sort of investment that you know

145
00:09:13,213 --> 00:09:17,453
Speaker 4: Estonia or the other examples Ireland set out to achieve.

146
00:09:17,853 --> 00:09:21,093
Speaker 4: Now I look at the test like this, and it's

147
00:09:21,093 --> 00:09:24,133
Speaker 4: a good test between whether a Minister of Finance is

148
00:09:24,173 --> 00:09:27,813
Speaker 4: a minister of finance first or a politician first. So

149
00:09:27,893 --> 00:09:29,973
Speaker 4: a lot of politicians and it's and it's quite a

150
00:09:30,053 --> 00:09:33,173
Speaker 4: popular set of ideas. The idea of something like tax

151
00:09:33,213 --> 00:09:38,213
Speaker 4: free thresholds or lowering the marginal rates at the bottom end.

152
00:09:38,973 --> 00:09:42,093
Speaker 4: Now that's good, and you know, the tax payer, you know,

153
00:09:42,253 --> 00:09:44,893
Speaker 4: we'll take tax relief pretty much any day, you know,

154
00:09:44,933 --> 00:09:50,533
Speaker 4: that's our job. However, it is always the marginal rate,

155
00:09:51,853 --> 00:09:54,653
Speaker 4: Like any sort of economic thing, it's it's the incentives

156
00:09:54,693 --> 00:09:59,933
Speaker 4: at the margins that incentivize the person to work that

157
00:09:59,973 --> 00:10:03,173
Speaker 4: but extra hard to take that extra over time, to

158
00:10:03,373 --> 00:10:07,093
Speaker 4: make the investment to improve their business or make it

159
00:10:07,133 --> 00:10:13,533
Speaker 4: more productive. And tax free thresholds, invariably over the long term,

160
00:10:13,613 --> 00:10:17,373
Speaker 4: increase what you're paying at the margins. And I use

161
00:10:17,413 --> 00:10:21,453
Speaker 4: it as an example because the National Party's are tax

162
00:10:21,493 --> 00:10:26,653
Speaker 4: relief that frankly only went a little way of even

163
00:10:26,693 --> 00:10:32,373
Speaker 4: compensating for the fiscal drag, the increase in tax that

164
00:10:32,453 --> 00:10:34,973
Speaker 4: we pay because of inflation. We earn no more, but

165
00:10:35,373 --> 00:10:40,693
Speaker 4: we get pushed into higher marginal tax brackets. It only

166
00:10:40,733 --> 00:10:44,853
Speaker 4: went partially way to compensate for that. And the way

167
00:10:44,893 --> 00:10:49,493
Speaker 4: it was structured is it doesn't really increase the incentives

168
00:10:49,653 --> 00:10:52,653
Speaker 4: to work or be more productive. And then i'd point

169
00:10:52,653 --> 00:10:56,853
Speaker 4: to you the National Party playing the politics as opposed

170
00:10:56,973 --> 00:10:59,893
Speaker 4: to the good economics and putting New Zealand on a

171
00:10:59,933 --> 00:11:03,773
Speaker 4: more productive path. And you know, we saw that mister

172
00:11:03,853 --> 00:11:07,413
Speaker 4: Luxon was seeing the Estonian Prime Minister. He might learn

173
00:11:07,453 --> 00:11:11,093
Speaker 4: a thing or two from the approach the Estonians take.

174
00:11:11,253 --> 00:11:13,373
Speaker 3: I suppose you didn't. You didn't find out whether we

175
00:11:13,413 --> 00:11:13,853
Speaker 3: did or not.

176
00:11:14,893 --> 00:11:17,773
Speaker 4: I haven't run into Christphal lux did an event with

177
00:11:19,333 --> 00:11:22,813
Speaker 4: our donors earlier this year. We haven't had them back yet.

178
00:11:23,133 --> 00:11:27,333
Speaker 3: Okay, break that down for me in very simple language,

179
00:11:27,333 --> 00:11:29,773
Speaker 3: if you would, so that we can all understand it.

180
00:11:30,213 --> 00:11:32,173
Speaker 3: When you talk about when you talk about the margins,

181
00:11:32,173 --> 00:11:35,893
Speaker 3: when you talk about incentives, give me an example that

182
00:11:36,533 --> 00:11:39,533
Speaker 3: or build an example for me that will explain to

183
00:11:39,573 --> 00:11:43,333
Speaker 3: all of us exactly how you would have it work.

184
00:11:43,533 --> 00:11:47,453
Speaker 4: Ideally, so the New Zealand used to strive for this.

185
00:11:47,653 --> 00:11:51,413
Speaker 4: It shouldn't matter how you structure your affairs, whether you

186
00:11:52,453 --> 00:11:57,093
Speaker 4: earn the income personally as a payu uner or whether

187
00:11:57,133 --> 00:11:59,813
Speaker 4: you own a business and a company structure or whether

188
00:12:00,333 --> 00:12:04,173
Speaker 4: you own it in a trust, that tech should at

189
00:12:04,293 --> 00:12:09,213
Speaker 4: least be roughly the same to avoid business decisions or

190
00:12:09,253 --> 00:12:14,293
Speaker 4: structural decisions being driven by tax incentives, that's what you're

191
00:12:14,293 --> 00:12:17,533
Speaker 4: trying to strip out. So these stoneans just make everything

192
00:12:17,573 --> 00:12:20,853
Speaker 4: twenty They even go as fast for capital gains at

193
00:12:20,893 --> 00:12:24,133
Speaker 4: twenty percent. And there's a very mixed economic literature whether

194
00:12:24,173 --> 00:12:29,133
Speaker 4: you should tax capital gains differently. But the point is

195
00:12:29,133 --> 00:12:31,773
Speaker 4: is that you wouldn't have that incentive that is happening

196
00:12:31,853 --> 00:12:32,293
Speaker 4: right now.

197
00:12:32,333 --> 00:12:33,213
Speaker 2: For example in New.

198
00:12:33,173 --> 00:12:37,413
Speaker 4: Zealand, where you've got a big difference between twenty eight

199
00:12:37,453 --> 00:12:42,013
Speaker 4: percent and thirty nine percent tax rate dependent on if

200
00:12:42,053 --> 00:12:45,413
Speaker 4: you'll farm, for example, is owned in a company structure

201
00:12:46,013 --> 00:12:47,013
Speaker 4: or in a trust.

202
00:12:47,573 --> 00:12:50,013
Speaker 3: How big is that difference, Well.

203
00:12:50,213 --> 00:12:54,413
Speaker 4: In that case it's eleven percent twenty eight percent versus

204
00:12:54,453 --> 00:12:58,573
Speaker 4: thirty nine percent on the dollar. These are not small amounts. Now,

205
00:12:59,333 --> 00:13:01,293
Speaker 4: you could argue that you know, there's still a difference

206
00:13:01,293 --> 00:13:04,613
Speaker 4: between the old trust rate of thirty three percent and

207
00:13:04,653 --> 00:13:08,613
Speaker 4: twenty eight. Now that marginal you might you know, you

208
00:13:08,693 --> 00:13:13,573
Speaker 4: might affect decision making, but certainly, eleven percent, eleven cents

209
00:13:13,573 --> 00:13:16,813
Speaker 4: in the dollar is a heck of a big incentive

210
00:13:17,613 --> 00:13:20,893
Speaker 4: to change your affairs. Now, for many farmers, they won't

211
00:13:21,013 --> 00:13:24,093
Speaker 4: miss you know that, they won't have business advisors and

212
00:13:24,093 --> 00:13:26,453
Speaker 4: management accountants of tax accountants.

213
00:13:26,013 --> 00:13:26,733
Speaker 2: Up the wazoo.

214
00:13:26,973 --> 00:13:29,013
Speaker 4: They're probably going to be caught by this when it's

215
00:13:29,013 --> 00:13:31,453
Speaker 4: too late to change. Whereas I can tell you the

216
00:13:31,453 --> 00:13:35,573
Speaker 4: beginning of town. Of course, they are restructuring their affairs

217
00:13:35,813 --> 00:13:38,253
Speaker 4: for it because they see it coming down the line.

218
00:13:39,013 --> 00:13:43,413
Speaker 3: They see it from the thirty second floor exactly all right.

219
00:13:44,773 --> 00:13:48,253
Speaker 3: Just with regard to something else, but associated the money

220
00:13:48,253 --> 00:13:52,573
Speaker 3: that's available in this country for business, for working, for development,

221
00:13:52,733 --> 00:13:57,173
Speaker 3: for advancing is in very short supply. It has been

222
00:13:57,213 --> 00:13:59,853
Speaker 3: said by others that we need we need to get

223
00:13:59,973 --> 00:14:02,973
Speaker 3: foreign money into the country and it doesn't matter where

224
00:14:03,013 --> 00:14:05,773
Speaker 3: it comes from. Do you subscribe to that.

225
00:14:07,173 --> 00:14:09,813
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, the the thing is is we are

226
00:14:10,093 --> 00:14:15,493
Speaker 4: the most, according to the OECD, the most restrictive in

227
00:14:15,613 --> 00:14:19,413
Speaker 4: terms of being able to get foreign direct investment in

228
00:14:19,533 --> 00:14:23,093
Speaker 4: New Zealand. Now, I appreciate that you will have listeners

229
00:14:23,133 --> 00:14:30,413
Speaker 4: that don't like the idea of having businesses owned from overseas.

230
00:14:30,493 --> 00:14:33,013
Speaker 4: You know, the other end of that spectrum would be Ireland,

231
00:14:33,093 --> 00:14:38,293
Speaker 4: where enormous amounts of capital have flown in. And a

232
00:14:38,293 --> 00:14:41,093
Speaker 4: big reason for that is that they took the very

233
00:14:41,093 --> 00:14:45,693
Speaker 4: conscious decision in the nineteen seventies that we no longer

234
00:14:45,733 --> 00:14:48,213
Speaker 4: want to be the poor man in Europe anymore. I

235
00:14:48,253 --> 00:14:52,093
Speaker 4: mean it's the prior to Jacinder Ardurn resigning, I re

236
00:14:52,173 --> 00:14:55,453
Speaker 4: called doing a similar sort of planning day with the

237
00:14:55,493 --> 00:14:58,293
Speaker 4: board and staff in December.

238
00:14:58,373 --> 00:15:00,053
Speaker 2: What was that December twenty twenty two.

239
00:15:00,853 --> 00:15:03,933
Speaker 4: And the assumption we were working on is that, you know,

240
00:15:03,973 --> 00:15:07,773
Speaker 4: the Ardourn government is toast, we were likely to get

241
00:15:07,813 --> 00:15:10,213
Speaker 4: a change of government in twenty twenty three.

242
00:15:10,813 --> 00:15:12,533
Speaker 2: What is the role of the taxpas union?

243
00:15:12,573 --> 00:15:17,613
Speaker 4: And we were actually calling it a Project Horizons or

244
00:15:17,653 --> 00:15:22,053
Speaker 4: Project Ireland because one thing that New Zealand seems to

245
00:15:22,093 --> 00:15:25,453
Speaker 4: have fallen into the trap of is not only are

246
00:15:25,453 --> 00:15:29,493
Speaker 4: we getting progressively poorer and in this sort of economic drift,

247
00:15:30,333 --> 00:15:32,533
Speaker 4: is we seem to have not we seem to be

248
00:15:32,573 --> 00:15:36,373
Speaker 4: accepting it a big I think I may have told sorry,

249
00:15:36,373 --> 00:15:38,053
Speaker 4: I may have told you this story before, but it

250
00:15:38,093 --> 00:15:40,533
Speaker 4: was particularly influential on.

251
00:15:42,253 --> 00:15:42,293
Speaker 2: Me.

252
00:15:42,333 --> 00:15:46,173
Speaker 4: And I tell the story about in Ruth Richardson's Batch

253
00:15:46,213 --> 00:15:50,293
Speaker 4: and Warnakah. There is the Garrick Tremaine cartoon from when

254
00:15:50,293 --> 00:15:53,253
Speaker 4: she was sacked by Bulger and ruth A.

255
00:15:53,453 --> 00:15:55,133
Speaker 2: She's in a space.

256
00:15:54,853 --> 00:15:59,453
Speaker 4: Costumer and you know, a spacesuit on the moon and

257
00:15:59,573 --> 00:16:05,653
Speaker 4: the speech bubble coming out is inflation under two percent.

258
00:16:06,093 --> 00:16:09,493
Speaker 4: I think she inherited it about six or seven government

259
00:16:09,573 --> 00:16:14,133
Speaker 4: books in the black which he inherited. The bailout wasn't public,

260
00:16:14,173 --> 00:16:17,573
Speaker 4: but she inherited the bailout of the old old ben

261
00:16:17,653 --> 00:16:23,733
Speaker 4: zed economic growth five percent. My job here is done.

262
00:16:24,013 --> 00:16:27,853
Speaker 2: Beat me up, Scotty. Now. It really stood out to

263
00:16:27,933 --> 00:16:29,813
Speaker 2: me because.

264
00:16:29,653 --> 00:16:33,253
Speaker 4: I cannot remember the last time he had a politician

265
00:16:33,453 --> 00:16:39,093
Speaker 4: even talk about aiming for the goal of growth at

266
00:16:39,133 --> 00:16:42,693
Speaker 4: five percent. You know, that's what Ireland and Estonia are

267
00:16:42,733 --> 00:16:45,773
Speaker 4: achieving on average, whereas we are more sort of two

268
00:16:45,773 --> 00:16:50,213
Speaker 4: to three percent and even worse right now, where we've

269
00:16:50,213 --> 00:16:53,173
Speaker 4: got a tiny bit of growth, but we are getting

270
00:16:53,253 --> 00:16:56,133
Speaker 4: on a per capita basis, on a per person basis,

271
00:16:56,733 --> 00:17:00,053
Speaker 4: we are not only getting poorer on that measure, we're

272
00:17:00,053 --> 00:17:05,413
Speaker 4: in the longer recession since records began. When you look

273
00:17:05,453 --> 00:17:10,373
Speaker 4: at GDP per capita or or per person. So we

274
00:17:10,533 --> 00:17:14,333
Speaker 4: saw the role of you know, a group like the

275
00:17:14,373 --> 00:17:19,013
Speaker 4: Taxpayer's Union to actually promote that conversation of what, you know,

276
00:17:19,573 --> 00:17:22,973
Speaker 4: the little country that could, what could New Zealand be?

277
00:17:23,093 --> 00:17:25,693
Speaker 4: And we see symptoms of that every day. You know,

278
00:17:25,773 --> 00:17:30,973
Speaker 4: the the drugs that until recently we weren't able to

279
00:17:31,173 --> 00:17:32,093
Speaker 4: we didn't have the money to.

280
00:17:33,253 --> 00:17:35,253
Speaker 2: How could we still don't have the money to do it.

281
00:17:35,293 --> 00:17:40,933
Speaker 4: But the services and drugs that are available in Australia

282
00:17:41,773 --> 00:17:45,893
Speaker 4: because they produce on a per per hour work or

283
00:17:45,933 --> 00:17:47,533
Speaker 4: per capita.

284
00:17:47,093 --> 00:17:48,373
Speaker 2: They produce a third more.

285
00:17:48,973 --> 00:17:54,333
Speaker 4: It's not having those options for what government services you

286
00:17:54,373 --> 00:17:56,973
Speaker 4: can have, what households can afford.

287
00:17:57,293 --> 00:17:59,213
Speaker 2: That's what you.

288
00:17:59,173 --> 00:18:03,133
Speaker 4: Know when you're in a fiscal fiscal drift for basically

289
00:18:03,173 --> 00:18:07,973
Speaker 4: a generation, when you haven't when your labor productivity hasn't.

290
00:18:07,733 --> 00:18:12,773
Speaker 2: Moved a decade. It these are the flow on effects.

291
00:18:12,813 --> 00:18:15,453
Speaker 4: So the role of the taxpayers units is to focus

292
00:18:15,493 --> 00:18:19,173
Speaker 4: on how do we promote the political conversation, So it's

293
00:18:19,213 --> 00:18:23,533
Speaker 4: not just about how you slice the pie, but actually

294
00:18:24,053 --> 00:18:29,333
Speaker 4: getting ruthlessly focused in the electorate, focused on how do

295
00:18:29,413 --> 00:18:32,653
Speaker 4: we grow it and how do we make not just

296
00:18:32,653 --> 00:18:33,653
Speaker 4: an asiell and catch.

297
00:18:33,493 --> 00:18:34,253
Speaker 2: Up with Australia.

298
00:18:34,333 --> 00:18:36,253
Speaker 4: At least John Key used to talk about that but

299
00:18:36,333 --> 00:18:39,773
Speaker 4: we don't even hear that anymore coming from the beehive,

300
00:18:40,853 --> 00:18:44,453
Speaker 4: but actually setting our sites higher. And i'd hold up

301
00:18:45,373 --> 00:18:51,053
Speaker 4: Estonia or Sorry, or Ireland in particular. You know, Ireland's

302
00:18:51,093 --> 00:18:55,613
Speaker 4: the only country in Europe that its population now is

303
00:18:55,653 --> 00:18:57,573
Speaker 4: still less than it was at the beginning of the

304
00:18:57,573 --> 00:18:58,453
Speaker 4: eighteen hundreds.

305
00:18:58,493 --> 00:18:59,373
Speaker 2: It's the only.

306
00:18:59,733 --> 00:19:04,613
Speaker 4: Basically its history was Its history was exporting people and

307
00:19:05,013 --> 00:19:08,093
Speaker 4: being poor. In the nineteen seventies, they took a very

308
00:19:08,333 --> 00:19:10,613
Speaker 4: anxious decision that we're not going to be poor anymore,

309
00:19:11,293 --> 00:19:14,373
Speaker 4: and they made public and continue to make public policy

310
00:19:14,493 --> 00:19:19,693
Speaker 4: choices to get off that track. And I'd argue, have

311
00:19:20,453 --> 00:19:22,573
Speaker 4: they are on the very opposite end of us in

312
00:19:22,653 --> 00:19:27,453
Speaker 4: terms of foreign direct investment. They've made themselves very attractive

313
00:19:27,973 --> 00:19:29,573
Speaker 4: and they've also reaped the rewards.

314
00:19:30,373 --> 00:19:34,173
Speaker 3: There's a couple of things I'd mentioned, And see how

315
00:19:34,213 --> 00:19:38,213
Speaker 3: you feel if it had been Bulgerho had been sacked

316
00:19:38,253 --> 00:19:41,613
Speaker 3: and by Ruth Richardson in the positions that they were

317
00:19:41,613 --> 00:19:44,333
Speaker 3: both in. But let's say he was sacked and she

318
00:19:44,533 --> 00:19:48,733
Speaker 3: was and she remained in business. Do you think the

319
00:19:48,773 --> 00:19:50,533
Speaker 3: world would be a better place for New Zealand.

320
00:19:52,053 --> 00:19:56,893
Speaker 4: Well, New Zealand profited for a long time off the

321
00:19:57,013 --> 00:20:00,493
Speaker 4: hard work that was done by a generation of politicians

322
00:20:00,933 --> 00:20:03,973
Speaker 4: in the mid eighties to about the mid nineties, and

323
00:20:04,013 --> 00:20:07,133
Speaker 4: then we've really drifted. I mean, this is the common

324
00:20:07,173 --> 00:20:11,533
Speaker 4: theme of the economic experts you have on your show

325
00:20:11,733 --> 00:20:15,173
Speaker 4: late and you know we've we look at that and

326
00:20:15,173 --> 00:20:18,693
Speaker 4: it's what made that budget, you know, so disappointing that

327
00:20:19,053 --> 00:20:21,733
Speaker 4: you know, I sweet, I've had a lot of kickback

328
00:20:21,773 --> 00:20:24,413
Speaker 4: from our people how rough we were.

329
00:20:26,333 --> 00:20:27,253
Speaker 2: On the maze.

330
00:20:26,933 --> 00:20:31,053
Speaker 4: Budget, because of course we all know that Grant Robinson

331
00:20:31,093 --> 00:20:34,613
Speaker 4: in the last government put us on a terrible, terrible path.

332
00:20:35,573 --> 00:20:38,773
Speaker 4: I sweated bricks to get rid of the last government.

333
00:20:38,853 --> 00:20:42,333
Speaker 4: You know when when Ardurn resigned and Chris Hipkins took over.

334
00:20:43,013 --> 00:20:45,693
Speaker 4: Let me tell you, those plans absolutely went out the

335
00:20:45,693 --> 00:20:50,853
Speaker 4: window when the polls tightened and it wasn't clear you know,

336
00:20:50,893 --> 00:20:53,813
Speaker 4: what the election result may be. I sweated bricks to

337
00:20:53,813 --> 00:20:56,933
Speaker 4: get rid of them, but I didn't do it to

338
00:20:57,053 --> 00:21:02,013
Speaker 4: have a national lead or a Tory coalition government which

339
00:21:02,053 --> 00:21:06,933
Speaker 4: is spending more than Grant Robinson, including as a percentage

340
00:21:06,973 --> 00:21:12,853
Speaker 4: of GDP, is pushing back us getting the books back

341
00:21:12,973 --> 00:21:18,613
Speaker 4: into black and instead of you know, sacking those twenty

342
00:21:18,693 --> 00:21:22,453
Speaker 4: thousand extra public servants is actually I think the last

343
00:21:22,493 --> 00:21:24,413
Speaker 4: count it's only two hundred and fifty. They talk about

344
00:21:24,453 --> 00:21:26,853
Speaker 4: all these sackings, but then the new ones they're coming

345
00:21:26,853 --> 00:21:31,533
Speaker 4: in the latest Public Service Report Public Service Commission reporters

346
00:21:31,573 --> 00:21:34,533
Speaker 4: that only two hundred and fifty have actually met, have

347
00:21:34,653 --> 00:21:39,373
Speaker 4: actually gone. What their own effect doing is locking in

348
00:21:39,453 --> 00:21:42,893
Speaker 4: that sort of post COVID bonanza of government spending.

349
00:21:43,173 --> 00:21:44,213
Speaker 2: Oh and that's the other thing.

350
00:21:45,053 --> 00:21:50,213
Speaker 4: Is the pathway back to surplus under Nichola Willis's first

351
00:21:50,213 --> 00:21:55,173
Speaker 4: budget relies on the exact same mischief of fiscal drag,

352
00:21:55,293 --> 00:21:59,813
Speaker 4: of not changing tax thresholds with inflation that she spent

353
00:21:59,933 --> 00:22:03,973
Speaker 4: all her years in opposition complaining about, and rightfully so

354
00:22:04,573 --> 00:22:09,013
Speaker 4: about Grant Robertson. And yet that instead of rationalize in spending,

355
00:22:09,613 --> 00:22:12,813
Speaker 4: that is what the government is relying on to get

356
00:22:12,893 --> 00:22:14,613
Speaker 4: us back into surplus.

357
00:22:14,973 --> 00:22:17,173
Speaker 3: All right, let me back up a bit. You mentioned

358
00:22:17,213 --> 00:22:20,653
Speaker 3: capital gains a couple of times. That's one blessing we

359
00:22:20,693 --> 00:22:22,893
Speaker 3: do have that we don't have capital gains. Every time

360
00:22:22,893 --> 00:22:27,693
Speaker 3: it comes up for discussions, it's shot dead. Do you

361
00:22:27,853 --> 00:22:30,693
Speaker 3: think there is grounds for capital gains?

362
00:22:31,013 --> 00:22:33,493
Speaker 4: I think reason our minds can differ on it. The

363
00:22:33,733 --> 00:22:37,533
Speaker 4: proposal that was put in front of us by the

364
00:22:37,573 --> 00:22:40,653
Speaker 4: Tax Working Group in Sir Michael Cullen would have been

365
00:22:40,893 --> 00:22:44,293
Speaker 4: one of the most aggreatable, actually not one of the most.

366
00:22:44,413 --> 00:22:46,493
Speaker 2: We could not find an example in.

367
00:22:46,453 --> 00:22:49,133
Speaker 4: The world as aggressive as that one for a couple

368
00:22:49,173 --> 00:22:52,573
Speaker 4: of reasons. The first is that unlike I mean, it

369
00:22:52,613 --> 00:22:57,053
Speaker 4: was a minisatively very complex because it had everything came

370
00:22:57,093 --> 00:22:59,333
Speaker 4: in from day one. It wasn't like the Australians where

371
00:22:59,373 --> 00:23:04,853
Speaker 4: it was it came in as assets were sold and purchased.

372
00:23:05,253 --> 00:23:07,733
Speaker 2: That's the first. The second is that it would be among.

373
00:23:07,493 --> 00:23:12,173
Speaker 4: The highest in the world because poy income or if

374
00:23:12,173 --> 00:23:15,333
Speaker 4: you know, you go and turn up for work and

375
00:23:15,373 --> 00:23:19,493
Speaker 4: get wages as much lower risk than putting capital on

376
00:23:19,533 --> 00:23:23,213
Speaker 4: the line and investing in say a business, and almost

377
00:23:23,293 --> 00:23:26,533
Speaker 4: all of the world have a much lower rate for

378
00:23:26,653 --> 00:23:31,093
Speaker 4: capital gains for that reason because you're risk adjusting it,

379
00:23:31,413 --> 00:23:38,773
Speaker 4: whereas Michael Cullen's proposal had it at the at your

380
00:23:38,973 --> 00:23:42,413
Speaker 4: marginal rate. So it was it was, it was very high.

381
00:23:42,813 --> 00:23:44,213
Speaker 4: I was also not reven neutral.

382
00:23:44,253 --> 00:23:45,013
Speaker 2: It was done.

383
00:23:44,853 --> 00:23:50,453
Speaker 4: Clearly as a tax grab rather than attach a tax switch.

384
00:23:50,933 --> 00:23:56,053
Speaker 4: And it also tax inflation. If you simply your return

385
00:23:56,173 --> 00:23:59,053
Speaker 4: on the on the asset was no higher than the

386
00:23:59,093 --> 00:24:02,293
Speaker 4: inflation rate. The politicians still came along and grabbed you.

387
00:24:02,573 --> 00:24:04,973
Speaker 4: So it was an unfair tax in that regard to

388
00:24:05,453 --> 00:24:08,493
Speaker 4: that wasn't the model I would hold up, but it

389
00:24:08,573 --> 00:24:11,733
Speaker 4: was the model that was in front of us when

390
00:24:11,773 --> 00:24:15,853
Speaker 4: we had that capital gains fight some years ago. In

391
00:24:15,973 --> 00:24:21,613
Speaker 4: terms of we survey our supporters pretty regularly, and you know,

392
00:24:21,693 --> 00:24:23,613
Speaker 4: I can tell you that you know, as I say,

393
00:24:23,693 --> 00:24:27,053
Speaker 4: reasonable minds can differ on this. I remember my former

394
00:24:27,613 --> 00:24:33,493
Speaker 4: Chia Barry Saunders, is relatively relaxed about the capital gains

395
00:24:33,493 --> 00:24:38,133
Speaker 4: tax in principle. But the problem that we didn't have

396
00:24:38,253 --> 00:24:39,893
Speaker 4: to have that argument because of the one that was

397
00:24:39,893 --> 00:24:42,173
Speaker 4: in front of us was so bad. Just step back

398
00:24:42,253 --> 00:24:46,733
Speaker 4: though in a New Zealand context. The problem, the economic

399
00:24:46,973 --> 00:24:52,093
Speaker 4: problem that you and I have talked about around our

400
00:24:52,453 --> 00:24:57,733
Speaker 4: productivity issue, it's the story of the economic history of

401
00:24:57,773 --> 00:25:02,813
Speaker 4: New Zealand in my lifetime, is low productivity, under capitalization

402
00:25:04,173 --> 00:25:08,453
Speaker 4: of our businesses, poor productivity per labor, are per for

403
00:25:08,573 --> 00:25:13,853
Speaker 4: our work, too much money going into housing.

404
00:25:15,093 --> 00:25:19,493
Speaker 2: How could the solution to that issue be to tax.

405
00:25:19,613 --> 00:25:23,573
Speaker 4: Capital and capital investment or the gains from capital investment

406
00:25:24,213 --> 00:25:29,333
Speaker 4: except for the family home that would drive And yet

407
00:25:29,373 --> 00:25:33,613
Speaker 4: somehow that is the economic solution. It would actually make

408
00:25:33,813 --> 00:25:37,453
Speaker 4: worse the very problem that New Zealand has, which is,

409
00:25:37,493 --> 00:25:41,733
Speaker 4: as I say that under capital investment. And that's why

410
00:25:41,773 --> 00:25:45,853
Speaker 4: the tax Payers Union, you know, we're promoting different tax

411
00:25:45,933 --> 00:25:49,573
Speaker 4: changes to encourage more of what we want, which is

412
00:25:50,093 --> 00:25:52,413
Speaker 4: more money going into good investments.

413
00:25:52,493 --> 00:25:55,333
Speaker 2: And what good are?

414
00:25:55,613 --> 00:25:56,813
Speaker 3: What are good investments?

415
00:25:57,133 --> 00:26:00,013
Speaker 4: Oh give an example, So the one if there was

416
00:26:00,253 --> 00:26:04,173
Speaker 4: one thing we could have from a wish list in

417
00:26:04,333 --> 00:26:08,093
Speaker 4: next year's budget, it's the best tax idea you've you've

418
00:26:08,133 --> 00:26:13,693
Speaker 4: never heard of, which is the full expensing of capital items.

419
00:26:14,253 --> 00:26:17,213
Speaker 4: So right now, if you're a business and you go

420
00:26:17,253 --> 00:26:20,573
Speaker 4: and buy a big piece of capital kit, you have

421
00:26:20,613 --> 00:26:24,533
Speaker 4: to look up the depreciation rates with that ird set

422
00:26:24,613 --> 00:26:28,093
Speaker 4: and you can expense that investment over many years to come.

423
00:26:28,813 --> 00:26:32,853
Speaker 4: Something that Donald Trump did and Russie Sink did when he.

424
00:26:32,853 --> 00:26:35,373
Speaker 2: Was chancellor is.

425
00:26:37,173 --> 00:26:43,453
Speaker 4: Allow the full expensing of any capital items and have

426
00:26:43,493 --> 00:26:46,053
Speaker 4: a time limit on it. So if we did that,

427
00:26:46,293 --> 00:26:48,773
Speaker 4: for example, in the next year as part of next

428
00:26:48,813 --> 00:26:53,773
Speaker 4: year's budget, it would bring forward capital investment because you'd

429
00:26:53,773 --> 00:26:57,653
Speaker 4: want to get the tax right off, and it wouldn't

430
00:26:57,653 --> 00:27:01,013
Speaker 4: actually push back the date to getting back into surplus.

431
00:27:01,453 --> 00:27:05,293
Speaker 4: Now the Americans made it permanent. But by having that

432
00:27:05,493 --> 00:27:08,853
Speaker 4: expiry date, as I say, it brings full with capital

433
00:27:08,853 --> 00:27:12,893
Speaker 4: and investment, which is great in a in a recessionary environment.

434
00:27:13,573 --> 00:27:17,333
Speaker 4: And two it actually achieves what you want, which is

435
00:27:17,413 --> 00:27:21,173
Speaker 4: businesses investing in the sort of capital kit to long

436
00:27:21,293 --> 00:27:24,453
Speaker 4: term increase your labor productivity. And we'd hold that up

437
00:27:24,493 --> 00:27:28,693
Speaker 4: as a something that a good sort of not necessarily

438
00:27:28,773 --> 00:27:34,573
Speaker 4: politically sexy idea, but economically very wise.

439
00:27:34,733 --> 00:27:38,893
Speaker 3: All right, A couple of things. Welfare is enormous in

440
00:27:38,933 --> 00:27:44,653
Speaker 3: this country. Is there is there a need to curtail

441
00:27:44,733 --> 00:27:49,333
Speaker 3: welfare and specifically welfare expectations.

442
00:27:48,933 --> 00:27:50,253
Speaker 2: Were the elephant in the room.

443
00:27:51,613 --> 00:28:00,053
Speaker 4: In New Zealand's public finance is that the superannuation simply

444
00:28:00,093 --> 00:28:03,613
Speaker 4: becomes unaffordable over the long term. You know, forget the

445
00:28:03,693 --> 00:28:06,333
Speaker 4: super fund. It's a drop in the ocean compared to

446
00:28:06,493 --> 00:28:10,613
Speaker 4: the enormous growth in New Zealand Super over the next

447
00:28:10,653 --> 00:28:14,613
Speaker 4: twenty years. And that is actually probably long term. My

448
00:28:14,653 --> 00:28:19,093
Speaker 4: greatest concern is that the unwillingness, by at least what

449
00:28:19,173 --> 00:28:21,013
Speaker 4: we've seen, it could be wrong. But you know, we

450
00:28:21,133 --> 00:28:23,733
Speaker 4: six months into this, more than six months into this

451
00:28:23,813 --> 00:28:27,493
Speaker 4: government now, is that simply kicking the can down the

452
00:28:27,573 --> 00:28:30,733
Speaker 4: road is the sort of thing we did in the seventies,

453
00:28:31,773 --> 00:28:34,013
Speaker 4: and we all know how the eighties turned out.

454
00:28:34,693 --> 00:28:38,693
Speaker 3: Talking of capital gains, my philosophy is, you don't allow

455
00:28:38,733 --> 00:28:41,333
Speaker 3: the government to you prevent the government from introducing any

456
00:28:41,373 --> 00:28:46,933
Speaker 3: new taxes except in what might be considered exceptional circumstances.

457
00:28:47,333 --> 00:28:50,653
Speaker 3: And I'll use GST as the prime example. GST was

458
00:28:50,693 --> 00:28:53,293
Speaker 3: introduced to ten percent. We all know this. Then it

459
00:28:53,333 --> 00:28:55,013
Speaker 3: went up to twelve and a half percent, and it's

460
00:28:55,053 --> 00:28:58,893
Speaker 3: now fifteen percent. One day I expected to go even higher,

461
00:28:59,453 --> 00:29:02,133
Speaker 3: but the deal was that it wouldn't go up, it

462
00:29:02,173 --> 00:29:03,653
Speaker 3: would stay where it was, and then there was a

463
00:29:03,693 --> 00:29:06,293
Speaker 3: trade off for that. Now, if you introduced a capital

464
00:29:06,333 --> 00:29:09,853
Speaker 3: gains tax at whatever level, sooner or later, that'll change

465
00:29:10,013 --> 00:29:13,253
Speaker 3: and you'll get pursued for it, et cetera. So is

466
00:29:13,373 --> 00:29:16,413
Speaker 3: there based on that, and I'm accepting that I'm right

467
00:29:16,453 --> 00:29:22,333
Speaker 3: on this occasion, is there a problem with the what

468
00:29:22,453 --> 00:29:27,653
Speaker 3: I shall momentarily call the collective intelligence of the country

469
00:29:28,453 --> 00:29:33,373
Speaker 3: in that the education system fails dismally to teach kids

470
00:29:34,173 --> 00:29:41,413
Speaker 3: the importance of matters of finance and and and and

471
00:29:41,413 --> 00:29:45,293
Speaker 3: and economics. If every if every kid got some form

472
00:29:45,333 --> 00:29:49,773
Speaker 3: of economics, that taught them how effort work. Putting in

473
00:29:49,813 --> 00:29:52,213
Speaker 3: that extra extra hour in your job, if you if

474
00:29:52,213 --> 00:29:54,053
Speaker 3: you're getting paid by there or what, or even if

475
00:29:54,053 --> 00:29:56,933
Speaker 3: you're not, is going to lead to you being better

476
00:29:57,053 --> 00:29:57,973
Speaker 3: off in the long run.

477
00:29:59,413 --> 00:30:01,693
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's even it's even simpler than that.

478
00:30:02,693 --> 00:30:05,813
Speaker 4: As you get older, you you start to appreciate, you

479
00:30:05,853 --> 00:30:08,973
Speaker 4: know that this radical idea that you you spend your

480
00:30:09,013 --> 00:30:12,253
Speaker 4: money better than town Hall and better than those people

481
00:30:12,253 --> 00:30:12,813
Speaker 4: in Wellington.

482
00:30:13,653 --> 00:30:16,173
Speaker 2: You know that's a big You know, the.

483
00:30:17,693 --> 00:30:20,813
Speaker 4: Reason dontrial the Taxpayers Union is you know, to convince

484
00:30:20,853 --> 00:30:23,013
Speaker 4: people a little bit earlier, remind them why are we

485
00:30:23,093 --> 00:30:29,453
Speaker 4: in the media every day on exposing government waste? You

486
00:30:29,493 --> 00:30:33,053
Speaker 4: know it is because you know that the government is

487
00:30:33,213 --> 00:30:35,693
Speaker 4: very poor at doing a lot of stuff. I mean,

488
00:30:36,013 --> 00:30:39,853
Speaker 4: I'm I'm not a sort of you know, I don't

489
00:30:39,853 --> 00:30:42,013
Speaker 4: believe in no government. I'm not an anarchist or anything,

490
00:30:42,053 --> 00:30:44,653
Speaker 4: but I do think that there are some things that

491
00:30:44,893 --> 00:30:48,253
Speaker 4: only the government can do. And you know, I take

492
00:30:48,253 --> 00:30:51,213
Speaker 4: a view that the government should focus on doing those

493
00:30:51,253 --> 00:30:56,293
Speaker 4: things well rather than doing so much and frankly so poorly.

494
00:30:57,133 --> 00:30:59,373
Speaker 3: Go back to a studium, go back to Ireland, and

495
00:30:59,733 --> 00:31:03,893
Speaker 3: any other example you want to include doesn't matter. Is

496
00:31:03,893 --> 00:31:06,053
Speaker 3: it a case that we in New Zealand have not

497
00:31:06,173 --> 00:31:10,013
Speaker 3: yet sunk to the depths where we're so desperate that

498
00:31:10,053 --> 00:31:12,293
Speaker 3: we would we would alter the things that need to

499
00:31:12,293 --> 00:31:16,333
Speaker 3: be altered now, and you do it under more extreme circumstances.

500
00:31:17,093 --> 00:31:18,133
Speaker 2: Well, that's what had to happen.

501
00:31:18,373 --> 00:31:20,893
Speaker 4: It had to get so bad in the eighties before,

502
00:31:21,573 --> 00:31:23,733
Speaker 4: you know, we had to take because there was simply

503
00:31:23,773 --> 00:31:28,333
Speaker 4: no option but to take quite radical measures, you know,

504
00:31:28,413 --> 00:31:33,053
Speaker 4: because the you know, it couldn't continue. It was as

505
00:31:33,053 --> 00:31:36,093
Speaker 4: simple as that. It wasn't out out of choice. I'd

506
00:31:36,173 --> 00:31:39,373
Speaker 4: hold up local government as an example of a very

507
00:31:39,413 --> 00:31:44,773
Speaker 4: clear area where things are going wrong. You know, you've

508
00:31:44,773 --> 00:31:49,413
Speaker 4: got councilors that we've just done our annual rates dashboard

509
00:31:49,413 --> 00:31:52,533
Speaker 4: looking at the rates increases of every council across the country,

510
00:31:53,013 --> 00:31:55,453
Speaker 4: you know, and and for many rate payers. You know,

511
00:31:55,653 --> 00:31:58,933
Speaker 4: you're talking about a doubling of rates over only four

512
00:31:59,013 --> 00:32:02,253
Speaker 4: or five years, you know, on on on current numbers.

513
00:32:02,613 --> 00:32:04,053
Speaker 2: This is simply unsustainable.

514
00:32:04,533 --> 00:32:07,773
Speaker 4: And I understand that the counselors argued, oh, well, we

515
00:32:07,853 --> 00:32:10,893
Speaker 4: need money for the three waters and for the capital

516
00:32:10,893 --> 00:32:14,693
Speaker 4: and investment, and you guys you want infrastructure. Well, you know,

517
00:32:14,813 --> 00:32:17,773
Speaker 4: the politicians say that, but as soon as you strip

518
00:32:17,813 --> 00:32:20,533
Speaker 4: away where the money is actually going. At least the

519
00:32:20,573 --> 00:32:23,613
Speaker 4: story of over the last ten and a half years

520
00:32:23,653 --> 00:32:27,413
Speaker 4: since the Taxpayers Union was founded is that every year

521
00:32:27,453 --> 00:32:29,933
Speaker 4: that's what they say, and you come back a year

522
00:32:30,013 --> 00:32:32,933
Speaker 4: later and a greater and greater proportion of the budget

523
00:32:33,493 --> 00:32:37,173
Speaker 4: is being spent on operational expenses, not on the capital

524
00:32:37,213 --> 00:32:41,533
Speaker 4: items that the infrastructure that we were promised. Very clearly

525
00:32:42,133 --> 00:32:44,013
Speaker 4: there does need to be a real rethink in New

526
00:32:44,093 --> 00:32:47,013
Speaker 4: Zealand about don't think it's the role. I think it's

527
00:32:47,053 --> 00:32:51,213
Speaker 4: the governance and the tools of governance. Now we're moving

528
00:32:51,253 --> 00:32:56,573
Speaker 4: towards a Franklin undemocratic, co governed direction.

529
00:32:56,733 --> 00:32:59,693
Speaker 2: And unfortunately there's another.

530
00:32:59,533 --> 00:33:02,813
Speaker 4: Area where I'd argue that the government talked a very

531
00:33:02,853 --> 00:33:08,093
Speaker 4: good talk through the election, but is at least in

532
00:33:08,093 --> 00:33:12,933
Speaker 4: some areas really failing to deliver. And you know, with

533
00:33:12,933 --> 00:33:15,173
Speaker 4: the role of the Taxpayser Union is to snuff that out.

534
00:33:15,253 --> 00:33:19,573
Speaker 4: But also there is a heck of a lot of

535
00:33:19,733 --> 00:33:23,693
Speaker 4: councils that aren't just dysfunctional, they're actually unable to do

536
00:33:23,733 --> 00:33:26,973
Speaker 4: their jobs and governor and I'd hold up an example

537
00:33:27,013 --> 00:33:31,053
Speaker 4: where many counselors ask for information from the officials or

538
00:33:31,093 --> 00:33:34,493
Speaker 4: chief executives, any chief executives look them back and say, look,

539
00:33:34,533 --> 00:33:38,413
Speaker 4: I'm I'm sorry, counselor, but that's an operational that's an

540
00:33:38,453 --> 00:33:42,733
Speaker 4: operational matter, and you're not entitled to that information. Well

541
00:33:42,733 --> 00:33:47,773
Speaker 4: i'm sorry, but you know, if you're on a board,

542
00:33:47,973 --> 00:33:50,613
Speaker 4: on the board of a company, you know where you've

543
00:33:50,613 --> 00:33:53,733
Speaker 4: got statutory rights of information, you just laugh at that.

544
00:33:54,093 --> 00:33:56,653
Speaker 2: You're damn well entitled to it.

545
00:33:56,733 --> 00:34:02,293
Speaker 4: Astonishingly, local counselors don't have statutory rights to information. I

546
00:34:02,293 --> 00:34:06,573
Speaker 4: think it's just always been any expectation and implied. But

547
00:34:06,693 --> 00:34:09,373
Speaker 4: officials are now that sort of seem determined to run

548
00:34:09,413 --> 00:34:13,253
Speaker 4: the show simply refuse to provide it. Well, it's all

549
00:34:13,333 --> 00:34:15,253
Speaker 4: very well for the Taxpayers Union to jump up and

550
00:34:15,293 --> 00:34:18,493
Speaker 4: down every day about government's piddling away money.

551
00:34:18,813 --> 00:34:20,853
Speaker 2: Sorry, your council's piddling away money.

552
00:34:21,293 --> 00:34:24,493
Speaker 4: You can't expect them to be well governed if you're

553
00:34:24,533 --> 00:34:28,733
Speaker 4: not giving councilors or elected officials the tools to be

554
00:34:28,853 --> 00:34:34,933
Speaker 4: able to second guests, review or keep the keep the

555
00:34:34,973 --> 00:34:38,053
Speaker 4: heat on, however you want to describe it. The chief

556
00:34:38,053 --> 00:34:39,413
Speaker 4: executive and executives.

557
00:34:39,613 --> 00:34:41,893
Speaker 3: It wouldn't be intentional by any chance, would it.

558
00:34:43,653 --> 00:34:47,173
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a I actually think that it's

559
00:34:47,173 --> 00:34:51,493
Speaker 4: a big reason why councils or councilors are starting to

560
00:34:51,493 --> 00:34:54,653
Speaker 4: pull out of local government New Zealand is that it

561
00:34:54,893 --> 00:34:57,853
Speaker 4: used to be a club of sort of of of

562
00:34:57,933 --> 00:35:02,653
Speaker 4: represent the council the councils in terms of the council laws,

563
00:35:02,653 --> 00:35:06,173
Speaker 4: whereas it's much like so much across the West, their

564
00:35:06,253 --> 00:35:08,853
Speaker 4: institutions as it sort of been consumed by the blob.

565
00:35:09,373 --> 00:35:13,653
Speaker 4: In this case, the blob is very much the professional

566
00:35:14,533 --> 00:35:19,173
Speaker 4: managerial class, the bureaucrats and officials that are actually quite

567
00:35:19,253 --> 00:35:23,093
Speaker 4: arrogant and look down their nose at democracy. I mean,

568
00:35:23,853 --> 00:35:27,013
Speaker 4: look at the way that even at the moment with

569
00:35:27,093 --> 00:35:30,093
Speaker 4: the government's fast track legislation, and we've been doing a

570
00:35:30,093 --> 00:35:35,813
Speaker 4: bit of work around this because we're pretty frustrated that

571
00:35:36,213 --> 00:35:40,453
Speaker 4: the government's fast track regime includes special consultative rights sort

572
00:35:40,453 --> 00:35:42,973
Speaker 4: of John Key style approach to co governance and.

573
00:35:45,893 --> 00:35:46,973
Speaker 2: In racial privilege.

574
00:35:47,453 --> 00:35:50,733
Speaker 4: But there there's this huge drive to take it away

575
00:35:50,773 --> 00:35:55,293
Speaker 4: from democrats, take the decisions away from democratically elected politicians

576
00:35:55,333 --> 00:35:58,493
Speaker 4: that I'd argue are accountable, because we must put these

577
00:35:58,533 --> 00:36:03,973
Speaker 4: decisions in the hands of experts. That's that I'm becoming

578
00:36:04,133 --> 00:36:07,813
Speaker 4: just more and more uncomfortable that that's actually code for

579
00:36:08,413 --> 00:36:11,773
Speaker 4: we know better. Another one of our campaigns.

580
00:36:11,693 --> 00:36:15,133
Speaker 3: Just before you leave that what you're talking about is

581
00:36:16,213 --> 00:36:17,373
Speaker 3: the administrative state.

582
00:36:18,093 --> 00:36:20,013
Speaker 2: Yeah, well the next example is going to go onto

583
00:36:20,013 --> 00:36:20,933
Speaker 2: with Aukin transport.

584
00:36:21,573 --> 00:36:24,413
Speaker 3: That well, I was about to beat you into it,

585
00:36:24,453 --> 00:36:25,173
Speaker 3: but you take it.

586
00:36:26,133 --> 00:36:30,093
Speaker 4: Everyone knowsorts Well, I mean it's it's it's all very

587
00:36:30,093 --> 00:36:33,213
Speaker 4: well to call your local counselor and go bananas, but

588
00:36:33,573 --> 00:36:37,693
Speaker 4: you know, it's it's its own serfdom. I think that

589
00:36:37,813 --> 00:36:40,133
Speaker 4: you know, we've sort of got the I understand that

590
00:36:40,173 --> 00:36:42,013
Speaker 4: you want some stuff taken.

591
00:36:41,773 --> 00:36:43,093
Speaker 2: Out of day to day politics.

592
00:36:43,093 --> 00:36:45,493
Speaker 4: You know that a few people would argue that, you know,

593
00:36:45,653 --> 00:36:49,373
Speaker 4: our reserve bank model was copied by pretty much you

594
00:36:49,373 --> 00:36:53,413
Speaker 4: know the rest of the Western world. But you know,

595
00:36:53,533 --> 00:36:57,253
Speaker 4: for stuff like public services like UK and transport, of

596
00:36:57,413 --> 00:37:03,933
Speaker 4: course you wanted to at some degree of political electoral accountability.

597
00:37:04,413 --> 00:37:07,133
Speaker 4: And here at the Taxpayers Union, in fact, we changed

598
00:37:07,133 --> 00:37:09,773
Speaker 4: our mission to bring that used to be lower taxes,

599
00:37:09,853 --> 00:37:14,933
Speaker 4: this waste more transparency. We replaced that last limb with

600
00:37:15,053 --> 00:37:19,853
Speaker 4: more accountability, because transparency is not enough if you can't

601
00:37:19,973 --> 00:37:24,213
Speaker 4: hold to account the decision makers, and whether that's undemocratic

602
00:37:24,653 --> 00:37:30,333
Speaker 4: co governance or these arrangements where you get frankly, and

603
00:37:30,413 --> 00:37:33,493
Speaker 4: we had a former staffer that was out of Auckland

604
00:37:33,533 --> 00:37:36,813
Speaker 4: Transport and I remember interviewing him and here's a bit

605
00:37:36,813 --> 00:37:38,253
Speaker 4: of a lefty and I asked him, you know why,

606
00:37:38,613 --> 00:37:40,173
Speaker 4: why do you want to come work for us? He said,

607
00:37:40,453 --> 00:37:42,573
Speaker 4: because I've seen the inside of the beast. They think

608
00:37:42,653 --> 00:37:44,853
Speaker 4: that the public served them, not the other way around.

609
00:37:45,333 --> 00:37:47,053
Speaker 4: And I want to hold these people to account.

610
00:37:47,613 --> 00:37:48,293
Speaker 3: How old was he.

611
00:37:50,413 --> 00:37:54,013
Speaker 4: Maybe about probably coming up thirty now he got Fortunately,

612
00:37:54,013 --> 00:37:57,133
Speaker 4: he got pinched by the Mayor of Auckland is now

613
00:37:57,133 --> 00:37:58,333
Speaker 4: his deputy chief of staff.

614
00:37:59,613 --> 00:38:01,253
Speaker 2: Well, one of the.

615
00:38:01,333 --> 00:38:04,253
Speaker 4: Challenges of running the taxpayers union is your staff are

616
00:38:04,253 --> 00:38:08,533
Speaker 4: constantly constantly being pinched. But that's right, that's part out

617
00:38:08,533 --> 00:38:10,733
Speaker 4: of the role of think tanks is to be a

618
00:38:11,213 --> 00:38:12,293
Speaker 4: incubator of talent.

619
00:38:12,453 --> 00:38:14,093
Speaker 3: Well, the fact that he was in his twenties at

620
00:38:14,093 --> 00:38:17,053
Speaker 3: the time is encouraging. At least he at least he

621
00:38:17,093 --> 00:38:20,413
Speaker 3: could recognize what the what the issue was. But in

622
00:38:20,453 --> 00:38:23,493
Speaker 3: the meantime, of course, that that same organization just rolls

623
00:38:23,493 --> 00:38:27,813
Speaker 3: on regardless. Give me your thoughts then on the dispersal

624
00:38:27,973 --> 00:38:32,333
Speaker 3: of information to the public, And by that I really

625
00:38:32,413 --> 00:38:33,013
Speaker 3: mean the media.

626
00:38:33,733 --> 00:38:34,413
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that.

627
00:38:36,733 --> 00:38:42,093
Speaker 4: I remember putting in our early business documents, business planning documents,

628
00:38:42,533 --> 00:38:45,973
Speaker 4: that the greatest threatened challenge to the Taxpayers Union was that,

629
00:38:46,493 --> 00:38:49,653
Speaker 4: unlike all her equivalents around the world, we don't have

630
00:38:50,213 --> 00:38:53,253
Speaker 4: a single mainstream you need to be the exception latent but.

631
00:38:55,013 --> 00:38:56,933
Speaker 2: Conservative news service.

632
00:38:57,453 --> 00:39:00,013
Speaker 4: We don't even equivalent to the Australian, the National Post,

633
00:39:00,733 --> 00:39:03,853
Speaker 4: even the Spectator in Britain actually or the Telegraph, but

634
00:39:04,293 --> 00:39:07,013
Speaker 4: even the Spectator and Britain actually break stories. We've got

635
00:39:07,933 --> 00:39:12,933
Speaker 4: good conservative talk radio, but the newsroom is certainly isn't

636
00:39:13,013 --> 00:39:19,053
Speaker 4: sort of isn't a sort of center right newsroom. But

637
00:39:19,493 --> 00:39:21,213
Speaker 4: having said that, you know, the Hero would be the best.

638
00:39:21,253 --> 00:39:24,413
Speaker 4: But this isn't me saying it. The opinion polling and

639
00:39:24,413 --> 00:39:27,213
Speaker 4: you ask New Zealanders and they consider the hero down

640
00:39:27,253 --> 00:39:31,373
Speaker 4: the middle. In every other mainstream publication on the left

641
00:39:31,853 --> 00:39:35,973
Speaker 4: or far left, New Zealand is an outlier the air.

642
00:39:36,053 --> 00:39:38,693
Speaker 4: It's what made this decision a few weeks ago, the

643
00:39:38,733 --> 00:39:42,093
Speaker 4: announcement from the government that can have an effect introducing

644
00:39:42,173 --> 00:39:46,453
Speaker 4: a tax and pale out the legacy media companies, which

645
00:39:46,493 --> 00:39:51,253
Speaker 4: is again a terribly short term decision by the government

646
00:39:51,573 --> 00:39:55,413
Speaker 4: and frankly probably isn't going to work, but also makes

647
00:39:55,773 --> 00:39:59,373
Speaker 4: the sort of it harder to see a sort of

648
00:39:59,413 --> 00:40:05,333
Speaker 4: new generation media come through as we're seeing around the

649
00:40:05,333 --> 00:40:06,053
Speaker 4: Western world.

650
00:40:06,533 --> 00:40:10,133
Speaker 2: On the other hand, you know, the Taxpaars.

651
00:40:09,733 --> 00:40:12,773
Speaker 4: Union New Zealander is now the largest per capita in

652
00:40:12,773 --> 00:40:15,293
Speaker 4: the English speaking world, and i'd put to you the

653
00:40:15,773 --> 00:40:19,533
Speaker 4: reason for that. When we ask our supporters, you know,

654
00:40:19,573 --> 00:40:22,253
Speaker 4: why do you subscribe and what do you like about

655
00:40:22,253 --> 00:40:24,253
Speaker 4: the Taxpars Union, they say, I feel like I get

656
00:40:24,253 --> 00:40:26,373
Speaker 4: the real news or what's really going on from you.

657
00:40:27,013 --> 00:40:29,453
Speaker 2: We've sort of it in a way filled that space.

658
00:40:30,693 --> 00:40:34,733
Speaker 4: But you know, it is a real worry that and

659
00:40:35,013 --> 00:40:40,453
Speaker 4: I think it partly drives that horrible polarization and distrust

660
00:40:40,533 --> 00:40:46,373
Speaker 4: of of institutions and things, because you know, our media

661
00:40:46,493 --> 00:40:50,853
Speaker 4: environment no longer reflects the population it's supposed to serve,

662
00:40:50,933 --> 00:40:53,093
Speaker 4: and I just don't see that being sustainable in the

663
00:40:53,093 --> 00:40:54,853
Speaker 4: long term.

664
00:40:54,893 --> 00:40:59,373
Speaker 3: Just finally, the government is too big. We have too many,

665
00:40:59,693 --> 00:41:05,133
Speaker 3: too many politicians, too many departments. Even even if there

666
00:41:05,133 --> 00:41:08,933
Speaker 3: are ministers who are who are handling the governents of

667
00:41:09,333 --> 00:41:13,773
Speaker 3: you know, three or four or even five different different sectors.

668
00:41:14,053 --> 00:41:17,093
Speaker 3: How would you how would you approach reducing the size

669
00:41:17,133 --> 00:41:21,573
Speaker 3: of the Parliament, and.

670
00:41:21,493 --> 00:41:23,773
Speaker 2: You know my view, I'm certainly no fan of MMP.

671
00:41:23,933 --> 00:41:26,573
Speaker 4: And actually it was the lack of any sort of

672
00:41:27,373 --> 00:41:30,573
Speaker 4: or the lack of any willingness of for example, Business

673
00:41:30,613 --> 00:41:35,253
Speaker 4: New Zealand or any or even the National Party at

674
00:41:35,293 --> 00:41:39,173
Speaker 4: all to shift the dial or advocate in that referendum

675
00:41:39,173 --> 00:41:42,013
Speaker 4: in twenty eleven. That sort of is a what was

676
00:41:42,013 --> 00:41:45,293
Speaker 4: I about twenty five? That sort of really alarmed me that,

677
00:41:45,413 --> 00:41:46,733
Speaker 4: you know, if we're not going to turn up to

678
00:41:46,773 --> 00:41:53,093
Speaker 4: these fights or you know, advocate for a conservative, center

679
00:41:53,213 --> 00:41:57,253
Speaker 4: right or common sense position, well you can't complain if

680
00:41:57,613 --> 00:42:00,413
Speaker 4: you're continually losing to the left because they.

681
00:42:00,333 --> 00:42:01,053
Speaker 2: Are turning up.

682
00:42:01,093 --> 00:42:03,453
Speaker 4: You know, there's hundreds of groups out there that are

683
00:42:03,493 --> 00:42:06,973
Speaker 4: complaining that the government isn't spending enough on albino snails

684
00:42:07,053 --> 00:42:11,013
Speaker 4: or whatever particular pet causes. You know, I mean something

685
00:42:11,053 --> 00:42:14,333
Speaker 4: that's that will motivated me to set out the Taxpayers

686
00:42:14,413 --> 00:42:18,373
Speaker 4: Union and subsequently, you know, co found the Free Speech Union,

687
00:42:18,453 --> 00:42:21,653
Speaker 4: for which you were a huge part of getting that

688
00:42:21,733 --> 00:42:23,653
Speaker 4: off the ground back back when you were on radio.

689
00:42:25,093 --> 00:42:27,493
Speaker 4: You know that the purpose of these groups is to

690
00:42:27,533 --> 00:42:31,693
Speaker 4: actually turn up and wave the flag you need. We've

691
00:42:31,733 --> 00:42:34,013
Speaker 4: we certainly did that on on Three Waters and a

692
00:42:34,053 --> 00:42:38,493
Speaker 4: few other issues. But you also need the politicians down

693
00:42:38,533 --> 00:42:40,933
Speaker 4: the road to be willing to show a little bit

694
00:42:40,973 --> 00:42:44,373
Speaker 4: of leadership to you know, our our job and what

695
00:42:44,493 --> 00:42:46,813
Speaker 4: gets up up in the morning is to you know,

696
00:42:46,893 --> 00:42:48,813
Speaker 4: wave the flag of fiscal prudence.

697
00:42:48,853 --> 00:42:51,933
Speaker 2: You know, we haven't gotten in a wall to government debt.

698
00:42:52,013 --> 00:42:55,453
Speaker 4: You know, it's ticking over ninety thousand dollars per household

699
00:42:56,333 --> 00:42:57,973
Speaker 4: and that's just central government.

700
00:42:58,013 --> 00:42:58,213
Speaker 2: You know.

701
00:42:58,253 --> 00:43:01,133
Speaker 4: Add on another I think it's about twenty twenty two,

702
00:43:01,213 --> 00:43:04,213
Speaker 4: twenty five grand if you're in Auckland that a successive

703
00:43:04,213 --> 00:43:08,213
Speaker 4: mayors and Auckland have now borrowed for every letterbox that

704
00:43:08,413 --> 00:43:09,893
Speaker 4: you pass as you drive home tonight.

705
00:43:10,333 --> 00:43:12,493
Speaker 2: You know, these are at what point do these numbers

706
00:43:12,533 --> 00:43:13,453
Speaker 2: start to get scary?

707
00:43:14,453 --> 00:43:17,333
Speaker 4: And it's our job to be the canary in the

708
00:43:17,373 --> 00:43:21,253
Speaker 4: coal mine, ensure that you know that that that that

709
00:43:21,453 --> 00:43:24,973
Speaker 4: is part of the political consciousness these things uh and

710
00:43:25,293 --> 00:43:29,293
Speaker 4: ultimately build you know, build movements or build parades for change,

711
00:43:30,053 --> 00:43:33,093
Speaker 4: as we did for Three Waters, for the politicians to

712
00:43:33,133 --> 00:43:34,773
Speaker 4: come and lead them. You know, we knew we were

713
00:43:34,813 --> 00:43:37,653
Speaker 4: winning that by the time that you know, the new

714
00:43:37,653 --> 00:43:40,373
Speaker 4: mayor of Auckland and Chris Luxon, who had been pretty

715
00:43:40,573 --> 00:43:43,813
Speaker 4: pretty reluctant to say anything about co governance at all.

716
00:43:44,933 --> 00:43:47,613
Speaker 4: Once once they were sort of handing glove on on

717
00:43:47,653 --> 00:43:50,333
Speaker 4: our position, we can sort of move on and you know,

718
00:43:50,453 --> 00:43:54,733
Speaker 4: get into the next.

719
00:43:53,773 --> 00:43:58,133
Speaker 3: Namely one person in well not one, but any as

720
00:43:58,133 --> 00:44:02,333
Speaker 3: many as you can in government, in leadership who are

721
00:44:02,973 --> 00:44:04,333
Speaker 3: conviction politicians.

722
00:44:05,373 --> 00:44:06,013
Speaker 2: Oh, I think that.

723
00:44:06,173 --> 00:44:09,053
Speaker 4: I mean David Seymour was a he's out of the

724
00:44:09,093 --> 00:44:11,413
Speaker 4: think tank world. I mean, they're all there for the

725
00:44:11,493 --> 00:44:15,373
Speaker 4: right reasons, like don't get me wrong. For me, the

726
00:44:15,413 --> 00:44:20,013
Speaker 4: litmus test is actually, you know, this government is not

727
00:44:20,133 --> 00:44:25,173
Speaker 4: going to be a big reforming government. But I'm not

728
00:44:25,253 --> 00:44:28,693
Speaker 4: breaking any state secrets because I've told Chris Bishop this

729
00:44:28,813 --> 00:44:29,573
Speaker 4: many times.

730
00:44:29,973 --> 00:44:34,453
Speaker 2: If Chris Bishop achieves the sort of.

731
00:44:35,933 --> 00:44:40,013
Speaker 4: Relaxation of planning laws or rips off the band aid,

732
00:44:40,573 --> 00:44:42,173
Speaker 4: that is an effect. Well it's not a band aid,

733
00:44:42,213 --> 00:44:45,213
Speaker 4: it's a handcuff on our economic.

734
00:44:46,413 --> 00:44:50,973
Speaker 2: Unleashing of them and actually.

735
00:44:50,453 --> 00:44:55,653
Speaker 4: Delivers planning reform or planning framework based on property rights.

736
00:44:56,173 --> 00:45:00,613
Speaker 4: I think that will be the equivalent to taking away

737
00:45:00,773 --> 00:45:05,333
Speaker 4: import licenses during the eighties. I would just absolutely unleash

738
00:45:05,733 --> 00:45:08,853
Speaker 4: the ability to get stuff done in New Zealand. But

739
00:45:08,973 --> 00:45:12,773
Speaker 4: also shift capital. One of the one of the huge

740
00:45:12,773 --> 00:45:15,333
Speaker 4: problems with therma is it's just the bias of the

741
00:45:15,373 --> 00:45:17,613
Speaker 4: status quo, no matter how bad that is.

742
00:45:19,253 --> 00:45:22,813
Speaker 2: If they achieve it now, it's a real worry.

743
00:45:23,853 --> 00:45:27,253
Speaker 4: That, you know, and you know, it literally cost us

744
00:45:27,333 --> 00:45:31,933
Speaker 4: millions to get a replacement for three waters, you know,

745
00:45:32,053 --> 00:45:35,773
Speaker 4: ready and drafted and ready to go. Unfortunately, no one's

746
00:45:35,813 --> 00:45:38,053
Speaker 4: done that with the r A and they're trying to

747
00:45:38,093 --> 00:45:41,653
Speaker 4: put that into place right now. They're talking about it

748
00:45:41,973 --> 00:45:45,413
Speaker 4: taking a year to get through parliament. That really worries

749
00:45:45,453 --> 00:45:48,533
Speaker 4: me because the more it's in parliament, the more complex

750
00:45:48,573 --> 00:45:50,373
Speaker 4: it's going to end up. You're going to eat something

751
00:45:50,373 --> 00:45:55,213
Speaker 4: that that's not just simple principles. And I don't know

752
00:45:55,253 --> 00:45:57,493
Speaker 4: what the what the result could be, but it's going

753
00:45:57,573 --> 00:45:58,893
Speaker 4: to be a heck of a lot harder to get that

754
00:45:58,973 --> 00:46:02,453
Speaker 4: through in a year's time than it would be if

755
00:46:02,493 --> 00:46:04,613
Speaker 4: they were going to get you know, putting it through

756
00:46:04,693 --> 00:46:07,333
Speaker 4: right now. On the other hand, if Chris Bishop does it,

757
00:46:08,653 --> 00:46:13,293
Speaker 4: he will rightly go down in history as as you know,

758
00:46:13,373 --> 00:46:18,053
Speaker 4: one of the great ministers of the state that unleashed

759
00:46:18,093 --> 00:46:19,013
Speaker 4: the New Zealand economy.

760
00:46:19,013 --> 00:46:20,773
Speaker 3: And I could say that you say, if he does it,

761
00:46:21,933 --> 00:46:24,093
Speaker 3: he can't do it on his own, no.

762
00:46:24,213 --> 00:46:26,613
Speaker 4: Of course, but he's got the he's got you know

763
00:46:26,653 --> 00:46:31,733
Speaker 4: that it's Simon Court an act from what I understand

764
00:46:32,213 --> 00:46:36,213
Speaker 4: a particular senior official and Chris Bishop the real driving

765
00:46:36,253 --> 00:46:39,213
Speaker 4: forces behind it. And it's really the extent to which

766
00:46:39,933 --> 00:46:44,333
Speaker 4: how much political capital the NATS are willing to spend

767
00:46:44,333 --> 00:46:46,813
Speaker 4: on it, because I don't think we're going to if

768
00:46:46,813 --> 00:46:51,253
Speaker 4: that budget is indicative of the fiscal strategy. I don't

769
00:46:51,253 --> 00:46:54,093
Speaker 4: think we're going to see miracles on the on the

770
00:46:54,133 --> 00:46:58,373
Speaker 4: tag side, or the or the efficiency or size of

771
00:46:58,373 --> 00:46:59,933
Speaker 4: the state side of things.

772
00:47:00,933 --> 00:47:01,253
Speaker 2: We're not.

773
00:47:02,053 --> 00:47:03,573
Speaker 4: You know, there is a lot of good work being

774
00:47:03,573 --> 00:47:06,053
Speaker 4: done in education, and I'll take that as red and

775
00:47:06,493 --> 00:47:08,293
Speaker 4: boy boyd does that need to be done because he

776
00:47:08,413 --> 00:47:11,133
Speaker 4: can't have a first world economy if you haven't got

777
00:47:11,333 --> 00:47:14,293
Speaker 4: first first world educated population.

778
00:47:15,453 --> 00:47:16,013
Speaker 2: But then it.

779
00:47:16,053 --> 00:47:18,933
Speaker 4: All roads lead back to the RIMA because what this

780
00:47:19,053 --> 00:47:24,013
Speaker 4: is now the second government national government that has promised

781
00:47:24,053 --> 00:47:27,333
Speaker 4: ARIMA a reform at every or a new at every election,

782
00:47:27,453 --> 00:47:31,293
Speaker 4: have gone into well, if they don't deliver this time around,

783
00:47:31,653 --> 00:47:33,613
Speaker 4: it's not very credible as it and.

784
00:47:33,653 --> 00:47:37,733
Speaker 3: The danger is that there will be more people fleeing

785
00:47:37,733 --> 00:47:42,373
Speaker 3: the country as time goes on and things worsen, And

786
00:47:42,413 --> 00:47:44,253
Speaker 3: if you want an example of things worsening, I'll give

787
00:47:44,253 --> 00:47:48,293
Speaker 3: it to you in the final breath from this podcast.

788
00:47:48,773 --> 00:47:50,973
Speaker 3: I heard the exchange rates this morning, as I do

789
00:47:51,053 --> 00:47:54,373
Speaker 3: most mornings. When I came to New Zealand some decades ago,

790
00:47:54,613 --> 00:47:57,213
Speaker 3: there was five cents difference between the Australian dollar and

791
00:47:57,253 --> 00:47:59,173
Speaker 3: the New Zealand dollar. It really didn't matter. It wasn't

792
00:47:59,173 --> 00:48:01,893
Speaker 3: that great for the first time for as long as

793
00:48:01,933 --> 00:48:03,693
Speaker 3: I can remember. In fact, I can't remember the last

794
00:48:03,693 --> 00:48:07,053
Speaker 3: time it was under ninety cents. It was eighty nine cents.

795
00:48:07,253 --> 00:48:09,493
Speaker 3: Now it may have been lower, but this is the

796
00:48:09,493 --> 00:48:13,053
Speaker 3: first time for quite some time. Against the British pound,

797
00:48:13,493 --> 00:48:16,773
Speaker 3: it's been forty eight, which was down from about fifty two.

798
00:48:17,253 --> 00:48:20,413
Speaker 3: I can't recall, not that long ago, but it's hung

799
00:48:20,453 --> 00:48:24,053
Speaker 3: around forty eight today it was forty seven, and there

800
00:48:24,093 --> 00:48:28,693
Speaker 3: are other examples that are the same. You can't survive

801
00:48:29,093 --> 00:48:34,013
Speaker 3: on the international front if you're dealing with that sort

802
00:48:34,053 --> 00:48:35,613
Speaker 3: of exchange rate.

803
00:48:37,853 --> 00:48:39,133
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just come back to that.

804
00:48:39,693 --> 00:48:42,533
Speaker 4: You know, I set up the tax Pass Union because

805
00:48:42,533 --> 00:48:44,453
Speaker 4: I didn't want New Zealand to continue to drift and

806
00:48:44,493 --> 00:48:47,013
Speaker 4: be poor. I've now got two kids, and I don't

807
00:48:47,013 --> 00:48:49,173
Speaker 4: want to look at them and feel guilty bringing them

808
00:48:49,213 --> 00:48:52,133
Speaker 4: up an awkwund You know that am I setting them

809
00:48:52,213 --> 00:48:58,373
Speaker 4: up in a place where your economic opportunities aren't like Australia.

810
00:48:59,013 --> 00:49:03,773
Speaker 4: And because of this awful direction and race relations, we're

811
00:49:03,813 --> 00:49:10,613
Speaker 4: going who your ancestors are determines what what rights you have?

812
00:49:12,253 --> 00:49:14,693
Speaker 4: You know, I mean that is not a recipe for

813
00:49:14,733 --> 00:49:18,453
Speaker 4: long term prosperity. And you know that's what gets me

814
00:49:18,573 --> 00:49:22,613
Speaker 4: up every day and to do this job, because you

815
00:49:22,653 --> 00:49:25,613
Speaker 4: know that's what we're you know, that's what we're taking on.

816
00:49:26,093 --> 00:49:28,693
Speaker 3: I know he gets up early because I texted him

817
00:49:28,733 --> 00:49:31,693
Speaker 3: the other morning over this interview and I said to him,

818
00:49:31,693 --> 00:49:34,053
Speaker 3: I know it's early, but when you.

819
00:49:34,013 --> 00:49:36,533
Speaker 4: Get it, when you.

820
00:49:36,493 --> 00:49:38,853
Speaker 3: Wake up, give me a call if you would, if

821
00:49:39,133 --> 00:49:40,853
Speaker 3: you ran straight away and said, I'm at the office,

822
00:49:40,893 --> 00:49:45,773
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Listen. Appreciate the time. I

823
00:49:45,813 --> 00:49:48,733
Speaker 3: appreciate more than the time. I appreciate the input.

824
00:49:49,133 --> 00:49:55,333
Speaker 2: Thank you, cheers, lady.

825
00:50:00,813 --> 00:50:03,973
Speaker 3: Back in February of twenty twenty, there were two events

826
00:50:03,973 --> 00:50:07,813
Speaker 3: that coincided in the one week, in fact, on the

827
00:50:07,813 --> 00:50:10,413
Speaker 3: one day. The first was the release of a book

828
00:50:10,493 --> 00:50:13,253
Speaker 3: called The Storm Before the Calm by George Friedman from

829
00:50:13,333 --> 00:50:17,653
Speaker 3: Geopolitical Futures. The second was the breaking news of COVID

830
00:50:17,733 --> 00:50:23,453
Speaker 3: nineteen and the medium mania that resulted. Cancelation was the

831
00:50:23,453 --> 00:50:25,893
Speaker 3: main result as far as the book is concerned. Cancelation

832
00:50:25,973 --> 00:50:29,253
Speaker 3: of numerous interviews for the book on television and at

833
00:50:29,373 --> 00:50:33,533
Speaker 3: least two major speeches that George was supposed to give

834
00:50:33,573 --> 00:50:37,973
Speaker 3: that week. It all disappeared. Now, when you release a

835
00:50:38,013 --> 00:50:42,133
Speaker 3: book and you've got the sort of coverage that was

836
00:50:42,173 --> 00:50:44,853
Speaker 3: listed and all of a sudden the rugs pulled from

837
00:50:44,893 --> 00:50:48,173
Speaker 3: under you, then you get a pretty good feeling that

838
00:50:48,213 --> 00:50:50,093
Speaker 3: the book sales aren't going to be what they should

839
00:50:50,133 --> 00:50:54,733
Speaker 3: be because book sales depend on a great launch, and

840
00:50:54,813 --> 00:51:00,733
Speaker 3: so that was never really rectified. Unfortunately, my understanding is

841
00:51:00,733 --> 00:51:03,533
Speaker 3: that the book is a steady seller, but now any

842
00:51:03,573 --> 00:51:06,893
Speaker 3: of the best seller ever since that took place. So

843
00:51:06,973 --> 00:51:09,493
Speaker 3: I can't say it's with pleasure because the circumstances under

844
00:51:09,533 --> 00:51:12,733
Speaker 3: which we're talking to George. But he's back on the podcast,

845
00:51:12,773 --> 00:51:14,333
Speaker 3: and I'm appreciative, thank you. How are you?

846
00:51:15,653 --> 00:51:19,173
Speaker 5: I'm extremely well, especially as you reminded me of that book.

847
00:51:19,973 --> 00:51:23,613
Speaker 3: Well, the book is the cause that I wanted to

848
00:51:23,653 --> 00:51:27,773
Speaker 3: speak with you. The attempt at assassination was was the

849
00:51:27,773 --> 00:51:32,013
Speaker 3: hook for doing exactly that? Your take on what took

850
00:51:32,053 --> 00:51:33,973
Speaker 3: place on that day, what is it?

851
00:51:34,533 --> 00:51:39,973
Speaker 5: Well, it's very hard to understand. One mystery is why

852
00:51:40,013 --> 00:51:45,453
Speaker 5: the building next to the to say wasn't cleared. The

853
00:51:45,533 --> 00:51:48,293
Speaker 5: answers it's been given is that we did clear it,

854
00:51:48,373 --> 00:51:51,213
Speaker 5: but somehow he got back up. So what you see

855
00:51:51,333 --> 00:51:56,893
Speaker 5: is a lot of inevitable accidents. So when you're a

856
00:51:56,933 --> 00:52:00,373
Speaker 5: Secret Service guy, you're going to be doing this a lot,

857
00:52:00,573 --> 00:52:04,093
Speaker 5: and you will make mistakes. And it's different from everybody

858
00:52:04,093 --> 00:52:06,893
Speaker 5: else because they think the mistakes are deliberate or planned

859
00:52:06,893 --> 00:52:07,573
Speaker 5: by someone else.

860
00:52:07,653 --> 00:52:07,893
Speaker 2: So on.

861
00:52:08,573 --> 00:52:12,813
Speaker 5: So what I think really happened was that they took

862
00:52:12,853 --> 00:52:16,213
Speaker 5: the hor of well, they didn't cover the area as

863
00:52:16,253 --> 00:52:19,893
Speaker 5: well as they should have, and this happens.

864
00:52:21,413 --> 00:52:23,853
Speaker 2: That's a conspiracy. It's very hard to believe.

865
00:52:24,653 --> 00:52:28,413
Speaker 3: I'll be quote you Eric Prince, Well, I'm not quoting

866
00:52:28,453 --> 00:52:32,493
Speaker 3: him directly. This is from an article headed Malice or

867
00:52:32,573 --> 00:52:36,493
Speaker 3: Massive Incompetence. Former Navy seal and Blackwater founder Eric Prince

868
00:52:36,533 --> 00:52:40,053
Speaker 3: gave a detailed assessment of yesterday's Secret Service to debarcle

869
00:52:40,573 --> 00:52:43,013
Speaker 3: in the wake of a failed assassination attempt on former

870
00:52:43,253 --> 00:52:49,133
Speaker 3: President Trump, hopefully quote hopefully. After the tragedy yesterday in Butler, Pennsylvania,

871
00:52:49,133 --> 00:52:53,773
Speaker 3: we can all recognize that unaccountable, bloated bureaucracies continue to

872
00:52:53,813 --> 00:52:58,573
Speaker 3: fail us as Americans. Donald Trump is alive today solely

873
00:52:58,653 --> 00:53:02,013
Speaker 3: due to a bad wind estimate by an evil would

874
00:53:02,053 --> 00:53:05,773
Speaker 3: be assassin. As the graphics show, the full value wind

875
00:53:05,813 --> 00:53:08,173
Speaker 3: of just five miles per hour was enough to dis

876
00:53:08,613 --> 00:53:12,973
Speaker 3: the unconfirmed but likely light fifty five grain bullet two

877
00:53:13,053 --> 00:53:18,453
Speaker 3: inches from Djt's intended forehead to his ear. One more

878
00:53:18,493 --> 00:53:22,533
Speaker 3: little paragraph Trump was not to say. By US Secret

879
00:53:22,573 --> 00:53:25,613
Speaker 3: Service brilliants, the fact that the US Secret Service allowed

880
00:53:25,613 --> 00:53:28,413
Speaker 3: a rifle armed shooter within one hundred and fifty yards

881
00:53:28,813 --> 00:53:34,133
Speaker 3: to a pre planned event is either malice or massive incompetence. Clearly,

882
00:53:34,213 --> 00:53:37,373
Speaker 3: there was adequate, uncontrolled dead space for a shooter to

883
00:53:37,413 --> 00:53:41,973
Speaker 3: move into position and take multiple aim shots. Watching the newsreel,

884
00:53:42,093 --> 00:53:44,533
Speaker 3: one can hear how proximate the shooter is by the

885
00:53:44,653 --> 00:53:47,853
Speaker 3: very short time lapse between the crack of arriving bullet

886
00:53:48,013 --> 00:53:50,813
Speaker 3: to the boom of the muzzle blast. I'll leave it there,

887
00:53:50,853 --> 00:53:52,333
Speaker 3: And is there anything you'd say about that?

888
00:53:53,813 --> 00:53:54,773
Speaker 2: Well, a general thing.

889
00:53:55,613 --> 00:53:59,173
Speaker 5: I know your service guys, they're far more likely to

890
00:53:59,213 --> 00:54:02,853
Speaker 5: be voting for Trump and far more likely to be

891
00:54:02,933 --> 00:54:08,813
Speaker 5: arresting anybody who wanted to hurt him than the Secret

892
00:54:08,853 --> 00:54:13,493
Speaker 5: Service people that I know in general. Okay, you can

893
00:54:13,573 --> 00:54:17,013
Speaker 5: have conspiracies all you want. You can explain any event

894
00:54:17,853 --> 00:54:22,253
Speaker 5: easily by you know, some malicious force. Okay, Well, one

895
00:54:22,253 --> 00:54:24,053
Speaker 5: of the things you have to do is understand you

896
00:54:24,093 --> 00:54:26,213
Speaker 5: know that everybody's talking about the Secret Service.

897
00:54:27,013 --> 00:54:28,493
Speaker 2: These guys are Trump guys.

898
00:54:28,733 --> 00:54:33,293
Speaker 5: These guys really hated the Democrats, so and this this

899
00:54:33,453 --> 00:54:35,693
Speaker 5: was a special group that didn't have any of them

900
00:54:35,693 --> 00:54:37,813
Speaker 5: in there, which I doubt there was. These are not

901
00:54:37,853 --> 00:54:40,453
Speaker 5: the people that it kills somebody. Plus the fact that

902
00:54:40,453 --> 00:54:42,773
Speaker 5: there's superiors at all toast.

903
00:54:43,573 --> 00:54:47,133
Speaker 3: There's one other aspect of the Secret Service that I

904
00:54:47,173 --> 00:54:50,893
Speaker 3: do want to raise with you, because I'm interested obviously

905
00:54:50,893 --> 00:54:53,773
Speaker 3: in your in your opinion. But there has been some

906
00:54:53,813 --> 00:55:00,653
Speaker 3: considerable criticism from from even from House members about the

907
00:55:00,693 --> 00:55:05,053
Speaker 3: makeup of the squad that was looking after Trump, and

908
00:55:05,093 --> 00:55:07,093
Speaker 3: they were referring one or two of them at least

909
00:55:07,293 --> 00:55:11,333
Speaker 3: was referring to the women. I saw I think two

910
00:55:11,413 --> 00:55:14,373
Speaker 3: women who were part of that squad. They were much

911
00:55:14,733 --> 00:55:18,253
Speaker 3: shorter than the men they were, and they're being criticized

912
00:55:18,253 --> 00:55:22,173
Speaker 3: for having them in that particular squad, that they were

913
00:55:22,253 --> 00:55:28,093
Speaker 3: uncapable or incapable of providing the sort of cover that

914
00:55:27,693 --> 00:55:31,453
Speaker 3: was necessary in a case like that. Now, I don't

915
00:55:31,493 --> 00:55:33,373
Speaker 3: know whether you hang on. I don't know whether you've

916
00:55:33,413 --> 00:55:36,253
Speaker 3: seen them or not. But they were fairly I would say, squat,

917
00:55:36,733 --> 00:55:41,413
Speaker 3: little overweight, and they were one in particular, was what

918
00:55:41,453 --> 00:55:44,693
Speaker 3: you would say was very short compared to her fellows.

919
00:55:45,773 --> 00:55:49,293
Speaker 5: I assure you that if one of those men tried

920
00:55:49,293 --> 00:55:52,333
Speaker 5: to take to those women, they'd break in their half.

921
00:55:53,093 --> 00:55:56,853
Speaker 5: These women are very tough and capable. And the people

922
00:55:56,933 --> 00:56:01,293
Speaker 5: who are saying this are not security experts. They are

923
00:56:01,333 --> 00:56:03,493
Speaker 5: coming out of the woodwork trying to get a little attention.

924
00:56:04,373 --> 00:56:08,653
Speaker 5: But you know why do they have women there? Well,

925
00:56:08,733 --> 00:56:12,853
Speaker 5: because very frequently part of the party that they're protecting

926
00:56:13,373 --> 00:56:18,013
Speaker 5: are women. The women have to be accompanied into a restroom.

927
00:56:18,853 --> 00:56:22,933
Speaker 5: Men can't do that. So you see that they have

928
00:56:23,133 --> 00:56:27,453
Speaker 5: a short woman there. First, she's an expert shot. Second,

929
00:56:27,533 --> 00:56:30,693
Speaker 5: she knows more lines of ways of breaking my back

930
00:56:30,773 --> 00:56:33,973
Speaker 5: than anybody else would. Third, you can't have a mix

931
00:56:34,053 --> 00:56:38,773
Speaker 5: something like this with the wives present without women. So

932
00:56:38,853 --> 00:56:41,573
Speaker 5: I mean, this is the kind of stupidity I'll be

933
00:56:41,693 --> 00:56:44,653
Speaker 5: very frank, I regard it as stupid. They're saying why

934
00:56:44,733 --> 00:56:47,853
Speaker 5: they're women there? Well, because they were in the party.

935
00:56:48,053 --> 00:56:50,573
Speaker 3: No, it it wasn't why were they women, It was

936
00:56:50,613 --> 00:56:51,533
Speaker 3: the size of them.

937
00:56:51,693 --> 00:56:52,053
Speaker 2: It was we.

938
00:56:54,293 --> 00:56:57,813
Speaker 5: Oh well, I can assure you, having once I had

939
00:56:57,853 --> 00:56:59,973
Speaker 5: my head handed to me by one of these women

940
00:57:00,093 --> 00:57:03,133
Speaker 5: who were short years ago, they've been there for many years,

941
00:57:03,653 --> 00:57:05,973
Speaker 5: that they're very qualified at what they do.

942
00:57:06,533 --> 00:57:08,773
Speaker 2: They need to if they come close to a person,

943
00:57:09,333 --> 00:57:10,053
Speaker 2: you don't need height.

944
00:57:11,253 --> 00:57:13,493
Speaker 5: I won't tell you the part of their body that

945
00:57:13,733 --> 00:57:16,293
Speaker 5: those women are going to hit. Did you take them down?

946
00:57:16,893 --> 00:57:19,293
Speaker 5: Because I wouldn't be in forever. But these are women

947
00:57:19,293 --> 00:57:22,893
Speaker 5: who are trained in taking men down, and if they're

948
00:57:22,973 --> 00:57:26,573
Speaker 5: not far away, they're expert chats. But you would not

949
00:57:26,733 --> 00:57:30,333
Speaker 5: want to engage these women in combat, okay.

950
00:57:30,653 --> 00:57:34,533
Speaker 3: A further quote from Jonathan Turley, the law professors from

951
00:57:34,693 --> 00:57:40,413
Speaker 3: George Washington, in a column that he's written the assassination

952
00:57:40,493 --> 00:57:43,493
Speaker 3: attempt to form a President Trump left the nation stunned.

953
00:57:43,493 --> 00:57:45,893
Speaker 3: But the most shocking aspect was that it was not

954
00:57:46,093 --> 00:57:49,413
Speaker 3: nearly as surprising as it should have been. And this

955
00:57:49,573 --> 00:57:52,213
Speaker 3: was the first comment that I saw that f I

956
00:57:52,253 --> 00:57:55,093
Speaker 3: can reverse it, that agreed with what I thought. I

957
00:57:55,213 --> 00:57:57,573
Speaker 3: wasn't surprised at it happened. I'm i'mly surprised that it

958
00:57:57,613 --> 00:58:03,693
Speaker 3: hasn't happened sooner. Four months, politicians, the press, and pundits

959
00:58:04,333 --> 00:58:08,093
Speaker 3: have escalated reckless retric in this campaign on both sides.

960
00:58:08,653 --> 00:58:11,693
Speaker 3: That includes claims that Trump was set to kill democracy,

961
00:58:12,213 --> 00:58:17,853
Speaker 3: unleash death squads, and make homosexuals and reporters disappear. The

962
00:58:18,533 --> 00:58:23,973
Speaker 3: claim about the homosexuals and reporters disappearing came from Whoopi

963
00:58:24,013 --> 00:58:27,733
Speaker 3: Goldberg on the television show that she's on every day.

964
00:58:28,013 --> 00:58:32,773
Speaker 3: What I'm really targeting here is the media, which I

965
00:58:32,813 --> 00:58:35,773
Speaker 3: think has a great deal to account for in the

966
00:58:35,773 --> 00:58:40,493
Speaker 3: circumstances that exist today, the mainstream media in particular.

967
00:58:40,533 --> 00:58:44,173
Speaker 5: Well to me, the most irresponsible thing in her it

968
00:58:44,213 --> 00:58:47,013
Speaker 5: was that statement that none of us are surprised at

969
00:58:47,053 --> 00:58:50,933
Speaker 5: the killing. I certainly was surprised most people I knew

970
00:58:50,933 --> 00:58:56,733
Speaker 5: who were the president who wasn't so immediately, Bartle, He's

971
00:58:56,813 --> 00:59:01,333
Speaker 5: hit the ground. We are holding something to someone. This

972
00:59:01,373 --> 00:59:06,533
Speaker 5: is a serious problem that Americans have, which is without evidence,

973
00:59:07,213 --> 00:59:12,213
Speaker 5: they claim something happened on purpose. We are still investigating

974
00:59:12,253 --> 00:59:15,653
Speaker 5: the Kennedy killing for who did it? On purpose, as

975
00:59:15,693 --> 00:59:19,613
Speaker 5: you're saying that a hostile It was a very hostile event.

976
00:59:19,973 --> 00:59:24,013
Speaker 5: It was a very hostile attack on both sides. But

977
00:59:24,093 --> 00:59:26,653
Speaker 5: we've had lots of those. American politics is not a

978
00:59:26,693 --> 00:59:29,653
Speaker 5: pleasant place to be to infer from that that we

979
00:59:29,653 --> 00:59:33,093
Speaker 5: shouldn't be surprised or the killing. I think that's pretty responsible.

980
00:59:33,733 --> 00:59:36,693
Speaker 3: Okay, I disagree. It's just it's just that it's something

981
00:59:36,733 --> 00:59:39,653
Speaker 3: that has been made. It's a part of the fact

982
00:59:39,653 --> 00:59:43,973
Speaker 3: that's been mentioned from time to time, the atmosphere of

983
00:59:44,013 --> 00:59:49,373
Speaker 3: hatred that exists and has for years now, something that

984
00:59:49,413 --> 00:59:52,173
Speaker 3: would give cause to an attempted assault.

985
00:59:52,853 --> 00:59:55,093
Speaker 5: Well, I'm sitting in the middle of Texas right now,

986
00:59:55,693 --> 00:59:59,253
Speaker 5: which is gun country, and there are many feelings on

987
00:59:59,333 --> 01:00:03,093
Speaker 5: both sides. What and the fact of the matter is

988
01:00:03,133 --> 01:00:08,253
Speaker 5: that we are not nearly as divided as people over

989
01:00:08,413 --> 01:00:13,053
Speaker 5: Cason and elsewhere. I think that we don't care nearly

990
01:00:13,133 --> 01:00:16,373
Speaker 5: as much about politics. So one of the things that

991
01:00:16,413 --> 01:00:21,813
Speaker 5: people who are involved in politics think that the citizens

992
01:00:22,133 --> 01:00:27,613
Speaker 5: are sitting here just living and exciting about what's going

993
01:00:27,653 --> 01:00:30,253
Speaker 5: on out there, and to a great extent, a lot

994
01:00:30,253 --> 01:00:32,453
Speaker 5: of people are just shrugging their shoulders and not hearing.

995
01:00:33,053 --> 01:00:36,653
Speaker 5: So the impact you think they have is by the

996
01:00:36,693 --> 01:00:41,333
Speaker 5: analysts or whatever on themselves. Here in Texas, it's not

997
01:00:41,373 --> 01:00:44,773
Speaker 5: a subject of conversation much. There's some feeling, but there's

998
01:00:45,053 --> 01:00:48,053
Speaker 5: certainly nothing to lead to the killings that are happening.

999
01:00:48,653 --> 01:00:50,973
Speaker 5: I think this was a young boy who, for so

1000
01:00:51,093 --> 01:00:54,013
Speaker 5: various reasons, felt he had to do it.

1001
01:00:54,653 --> 01:00:58,933
Speaker 2: Some people are like that. But for an American to say.

1002
01:00:58,733 --> 01:01:02,693
Speaker 5: That this is the evil that has grown the country, well, yes,

1003
01:01:02,933 --> 01:01:05,413
Speaker 5: Washington perhaps are the places not I.

1004
01:01:05,373 --> 01:01:07,173
Speaker 3: Want to move. I want to move to the book

1005
01:01:07,733 --> 01:01:12,493
Speaker 3: The Storm Before the Calm, because this has I think

1006
01:01:14,013 --> 01:01:18,253
Speaker 3: an intricate attachment to the scenario. And I want to

1007
01:01:18,293 --> 01:01:22,893
Speaker 3: quote you from a review from Australia for the book,

1008
01:01:23,013 --> 01:01:26,293
Speaker 3: Colin Chapman, who wrote, it's almost thirty years since the

1009
01:01:26,333 --> 01:01:30,373
Speaker 3: Supreme Soviet voted to the USSR out of existence. The

1010
01:01:30,493 --> 01:01:33,253
Speaker 3: United States was the only global superpower for the last

1011
01:01:33,253 --> 01:01:35,533
Speaker 3: decade of the twentieth century. Since the turn of the

1012
01:01:35,533 --> 01:01:40,053
Speaker 3: twenty first century, rightly or wrongly, the US has arguably

1013
01:01:40,053 --> 01:01:44,453
Speaker 3: been a nation in decline. Seventy percent of Americans polled

1014
01:01:45,133 --> 01:01:48,013
Speaker 3: by Politigo believe that under Donald Trump, the United States

1015
01:01:48,053 --> 01:01:51,173
Speaker 3: has gone on the wrong track. An earlier Pew survey

1016
01:01:51,333 --> 01:01:55,133
Speaker 3: was more specific, citing concerns over burseoning national debt, a

1017
01:01:55,173 --> 01:01:59,173
Speaker 3: widening gap between rich and poor, and a workforce threatened

1018
01:01:59,213 --> 01:02:03,693
Speaker 3: by automation. George Friedman will have none of it. He

1019
01:02:03,813 --> 01:02:06,613
Speaker 3: has rejected the notion of American decline for well over

1020
01:02:06,653 --> 01:02:09,933
Speaker 3: a decade. He dismissed as nonsense the view widely held

1021
01:02:09,973 --> 01:02:14,053
Speaker 3: by some prominent Australian academics that China would replace the

1022
01:02:14,133 --> 01:02:17,373
Speaker 3: US as the world's largest economy. Freedman has been proved right.

1023
01:02:17,613 --> 01:02:23,173
Speaker 3: The GDP of the People's Republic currently hovers around five percent.

1024
01:02:24,173 --> 01:02:28,373
Speaker 3: But this fascinating book is not about big power rivalry,

1025
01:02:28,693 --> 01:02:32,853
Speaker 3: nor a reassertion of American power, military or otherwise. Rather,

1026
01:02:32,973 --> 01:02:37,093
Speaker 3: Friedman cosiently argues that the US is transiting through the

1027
01:02:37,173 --> 01:02:39,733
Speaker 3: latest of a series of waves of cycles that have

1028
01:02:39,853 --> 01:02:44,093
Speaker 3: permeated American history since white men first came ashore and

1029
01:02:44,173 --> 01:02:47,893
Speaker 3: founded what was then a British colony. Friedman argues there

1030
01:02:47,933 --> 01:02:53,493
Speaker 3: are or have been two cycles, one institutional, the other economic,

1031
01:02:53,773 --> 01:02:57,293
Speaker 3: roughly every eighty years. It happens that for the first

1032
01:02:57,293 --> 01:03:00,133
Speaker 3: time these cycles are coinciding to create a bumpy ride

1033
01:03:00,133 --> 01:03:03,093
Speaker 3: for America before the emergence of a new dawn in

1034
01:03:03,173 --> 01:03:06,333
Speaker 3: a decade or so. Is that a fair assumption of

1035
01:03:07,733 --> 01:03:08,293
Speaker 3: your thoughts?

1036
01:03:10,093 --> 01:03:15,453
Speaker 5: Well, yes, and so far this year we're going through that.

1037
01:03:15,893 --> 01:03:20,893
Speaker 5: The shooting was part of it. Part of it is

1038
01:03:20,933 --> 01:03:25,053
Speaker 5: an economy that is moving back and forth. Part of

1039
01:03:25,093 --> 01:03:28,093
Speaker 5: it is the excitement there is in a supreme court

1040
01:03:28,493 --> 01:03:33,853
Speaker 5: over the whether or not phish can be taxed in otherwise,

1041
01:03:33,893 --> 01:03:35,133
Speaker 5: everything is up for debate.

1042
01:03:35,253 --> 01:03:37,013
Speaker 2: Everything is angry. Okay.

1043
01:03:37,653 --> 01:03:41,533
Speaker 5: Now you go back to the nineteen fifties when you

1044
01:03:41,533 --> 01:03:45,413
Speaker 5: know you had both sorts of crises from the Vietnam

1045
01:03:45,453 --> 01:03:47,013
Speaker 5: War and otherwise.

1046
01:03:47,093 --> 01:03:49,973
Speaker 2: Okay, we recover from them. In these.

1047
01:03:51,453 --> 01:03:55,333
Speaker 5: Periods we do two things. We cleanse ourselves of the

1048
01:03:55,533 --> 01:03:58,293
Speaker 5: issues that have been ripping us apart. We put them

1049
01:03:58,293 --> 01:04:01,853
Speaker 5: on the table, and we holler at each other, blame

1050
01:04:01,893 --> 01:04:04,253
Speaker 5: each other for everything. Then we come out of it

1051
01:04:04,733 --> 01:04:08,133
Speaker 5: into a stable thing. This is true since the founding

1052
01:04:08,133 --> 01:04:11,133
Speaker 5: of the United States. It's about a fifty year cycle,

1053
01:04:11,413 --> 01:04:15,253
Speaker 5: and every fifty years we go to a position of

1054
01:04:16,093 --> 01:04:20,253
Speaker 5: mutual rage followed by a refounding of the country.

1055
01:04:20,573 --> 01:04:24,373
Speaker 3: Now you predicted that that would be the cycle would

1056
01:04:24,413 --> 01:04:29,333
Speaker 3: finish with the twenty eight election, right, How can you

1057
01:04:29,413 --> 01:04:34,293
Speaker 3: put an event like an election as the point of

1058
01:04:34,453 --> 01:04:37,173
Speaker 3: the end of the crisis.

1059
01:04:37,613 --> 01:04:40,933
Speaker 5: It's not the election per se. It is all the

1060
01:04:41,013 --> 01:04:45,533
Speaker 5: issues that come to bear in an election. So, for example,

1061
01:04:45,693 --> 01:04:48,853
Speaker 5: when Reagan was elected, all the crises in nineteen seventies

1062
01:04:48,893 --> 01:04:53,973
Speaker 5: came to bear, and that process we came to some

1063
01:04:54,053 --> 01:04:56,853
Speaker 5: sort of understanding of what was going on. So it's

1064
01:04:56,893 --> 01:05:00,813
Speaker 5: not the election exactly the president, who generally doesn't matter

1065
01:05:00,933 --> 01:05:05,893
Speaker 5: very much, but it's much more the question of how

1066
01:05:05,973 --> 01:05:09,333
Speaker 5: we approach the election, how we fight with each other

1067
01:05:09,413 --> 01:05:13,733
Speaker 5: over the election, and how we save the situation. So

1068
01:05:13,773 --> 01:05:16,173
Speaker 5: we're having an election now in the United States. It

1069
01:05:16,253 --> 01:05:21,093
Speaker 5: is bitter, it is angry, it is seemingly catastrophic, and

1070
01:05:21,213 --> 01:05:24,453
Speaker 5: out of this we will come to a new stable

1071
01:05:24,493 --> 01:05:25,853
Speaker 5: pointer for the next fifty years.

1072
01:05:25,853 --> 01:05:28,693
Speaker 3: So something that you've been saying for a long time,

1073
01:05:28,893 --> 01:05:31,093
Speaker 3: and that is the president doesn't have as much power

1074
01:05:31,093 --> 01:05:34,093
Speaker 3: as people think they have. And yet there is a

1075
01:05:34,333 --> 01:05:40,533
Speaker 3: concentration at the moment of concern about the assuming of

1076
01:05:40,653 --> 01:05:45,053
Speaker 3: power out of the White House and the oval office

1077
01:05:45,333 --> 01:05:49,253
Speaker 3: over Well, I wouldn't put a time on it, but

1078
01:05:49,293 --> 01:05:51,693
Speaker 3: certainly the last ten years.

1079
01:05:52,733 --> 01:05:56,853
Speaker 5: Well, the presidency is a weak institution. It can't do

1080
01:05:56,933 --> 01:06:00,493
Speaker 5: anything unless Congress approves of it or not anything with

1081
01:06:00,613 --> 01:06:05,693
Speaker 5: most things. It has a Supreme Court that's enormously power

1082
01:06:05,853 --> 01:06:08,253
Speaker 5: powerful and determines a great deal of.

1083
01:06:08,413 --> 01:06:09,493
Speaker 2: What can be done.

1084
01:06:09,813 --> 01:06:13,413
Speaker 5: And then it has fifty state governors, and each of

1085
01:06:13,453 --> 01:06:17,693
Speaker 5: these state governors has significant powers of their own, which

1086
01:06:17,693 --> 01:06:18,653
Speaker 5: the president doesn't have.

1087
01:06:18,613 --> 01:06:19,413
Speaker 2: Any right to.

1088
01:06:20,333 --> 01:06:24,133
Speaker 5: Heck, so if you understand the way the United States

1089
01:06:24,253 --> 01:06:29,213
Speaker 5: is built, it was built by the founders because they

1090
01:06:29,213 --> 01:06:34,053
Speaker 5: did not trust people to govern fairly, so they created

1091
01:06:34,053 --> 01:06:37,773
Speaker 5: a system that was designed to block all of these actions.

1092
01:06:38,253 --> 01:06:40,893
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that we don't believe that the.

1093
01:06:40,653 --> 01:06:45,613
Speaker 5: President is ultraally responsible for everything that happens. It just

1094
01:06:45,693 --> 01:06:49,133
Speaker 5: means that it's something that people feel better thinking of that,

1095
01:06:49,213 --> 01:06:53,813
Speaker 5: and then no one's quite involved, and very frankly, it's

1096
01:06:53,813 --> 01:06:57,653
Speaker 5: just not true. So people talk about the United States

1097
01:06:57,733 --> 01:06:59,933
Speaker 5: as if it were a monarchy. We're going to have

1098
01:06:59,973 --> 01:07:04,093
Speaker 5: Trump as president, and then Trump will face the rest

1099
01:07:04,133 --> 01:07:08,093
Speaker 5: of his term in place that we've all seen this happen,

1100
01:07:08,493 --> 01:07:16,133
Speaker 5: all seen greatly promising presidents reshrival, but we don't remember it.

1101
01:07:16,533 --> 01:07:19,493
Speaker 5: We don't really understand what it is. Even people in

1102
01:07:19,493 --> 01:07:23,053
Speaker 5: the United States who believe that if you let Trump,

1103
01:07:23,173 --> 01:07:28,453
Speaker 5: wonderful things will happen Chreck Biden, don't understand that every

1104
01:07:28,493 --> 01:07:31,853
Speaker 5: president president is really a disappointment to people.

1105
01:07:32,373 --> 01:07:36,213
Speaker 3: What's your thought then, on the growth over a period

1106
01:07:36,293 --> 01:07:40,213
Speaker 3: of time of the authoritarian states it's known, and all

1107
01:07:40,253 --> 01:07:47,573
Speaker 3: the different departments that existed didn't exist before. And the well,

1108
01:07:47,853 --> 01:07:50,573
Speaker 3: let me use as an example. It's probably not a

1109
01:07:50,613 --> 01:07:53,493
Speaker 3: good one at the moment. But the appointment of Jack

1110
01:07:53,533 --> 01:07:59,013
Speaker 3: Smith illicitly to pursue to pursue a particular goal that

1111
01:08:00,053 --> 01:08:03,573
Speaker 3: was set for him by that authoritarian state.

1112
01:08:04,693 --> 01:08:06,693
Speaker 5: Well, I don't know anything about it's being set for

1113
01:08:06,773 --> 01:08:11,773
Speaker 5: him or what have you. His persecution is a collapsing.

1114
01:08:12,613 --> 01:08:15,733
Speaker 5: I mean, what we see happening is a whole bunch

1115
01:08:15,773 --> 01:08:19,533
Speaker 5: of things that they say they planned not working out.

1116
01:08:20,333 --> 01:08:23,813
Speaker 2: So if this was if this was.

1117
01:08:23,853 --> 01:08:27,413
Speaker 5: A plan put forward, this was the gang that goes

1118
01:08:27,013 --> 01:08:32,613
Speaker 5: shoes straight. Most of the charges against Trump are evaporating.

1119
01:08:33,453 --> 01:08:36,173
Speaker 5: And so what it does is you look at it

1120
01:08:36,173 --> 01:08:39,133
Speaker 5: and you see how the system breaks things apart and

1121
01:08:39,373 --> 01:08:43,053
Speaker 5: frees them up. And the emergence of Trump is a

1122
01:08:43,293 --> 01:08:48,093
Speaker 5: likely winner perhaps and no prosecution really so the way

1123
01:08:48,093 --> 01:08:51,173
Speaker 5: he had there, we are for all the prosecution that

1124
01:08:51,933 --> 01:08:57,293
Speaker 5: Jake did against him, He's Trump is doing well tonight.

1125
01:08:57,733 --> 01:09:02,533
Speaker 3: Well, I certainly can't disagree with that, but I've already

1126
01:09:02,573 --> 01:09:05,373
Speaker 3: got I think one more question on this, and that

1127
01:09:05,493 --> 01:09:08,013
Speaker 3: is the you mentioned the Supreme courtin it's power, and

1128
01:09:08,053 --> 01:09:10,533
Speaker 3: that's the way that it should be. But if you've

1129
01:09:10,533 --> 01:09:15,933
Speaker 3: got a loaded Supreme Court, which could be on the

1130
01:09:15,973 --> 01:09:20,773
Speaker 3: make if there was another Biden administration, it's the makeup

1131
01:09:21,333 --> 01:09:23,493
Speaker 3: that really decides what the outcome is going to be.

1132
01:09:23,573 --> 01:09:28,013
Speaker 3: So if you've if you've got some genuine constitutionally based

1133
01:09:28,573 --> 01:09:31,893
Speaker 3: justices operating the way that they were supposed to operate

1134
01:09:31,933 --> 01:09:35,813
Speaker 3: in the first place, as set up as opposed to progressives,

1135
01:09:36,293 --> 01:09:39,173
Speaker 3: then you're going to get the right result. But if

1136
01:09:39,173 --> 01:09:42,173
Speaker 3: you have an overloading of progressives, then it could be

1137
01:09:42,213 --> 01:09:43,213
Speaker 3: something completely different.

1138
01:09:44,013 --> 01:09:46,453
Speaker 5: Well, you know, we've wrote to collapse, I suppose. But

1139
01:09:46,493 --> 01:09:50,933
Speaker 5: the truth is that the Supreme Court is selected by

1140
01:09:51,013 --> 01:09:56,813
Speaker 5: the President and elected by the House, where everythent is.

1141
01:09:57,653 --> 01:10:02,013
Speaker 5: So these guys don't suddenly appear in these conspiracies. That

1142
01:10:02,333 --> 01:10:05,053
Speaker 5: is a conspiracy to really go through the rest of

1143
01:10:05,093 --> 01:10:07,133
Speaker 5: the place. And if you see the people who are

1144
01:10:07,173 --> 01:10:10,693
Speaker 5: on that community right now, it's hardly one that was

1145
01:10:11,373 --> 01:10:16,053
Speaker 5: positive toward Biden so on and so forth. So yeah,

1146
01:10:16,093 --> 01:10:19,133
Speaker 5: if you could load it completely. But what the Founders did,

1147
01:10:19,133 --> 01:10:23,573
Speaker 5: he made it impossible to do that. He made it

1148
01:10:23,613 --> 01:10:28,213
Speaker 5: impossible by making the entire system have to approve of him,

1149
01:10:28,373 --> 01:10:31,053
Speaker 5: and they don't approve of him. There six or seven others,

1150
01:10:32,013 --> 01:10:34,893
Speaker 5: and so the power is distributed. So the only thing

1151
01:10:34,933 --> 01:10:39,333
Speaker 5: you can do in political life is to create a

1152
01:10:39,373 --> 01:10:45,533
Speaker 5: system that has elements stopping it. And also by complicating

1153
01:10:46,173 --> 01:10:50,813
Speaker 5: the entire process. So as to blonde, who are they

1154
01:10:50,853 --> 01:10:54,373
Speaker 5: afraid of of? Well, six of them are conservatives, three

1155
01:10:54,413 --> 01:10:58,533
Speaker 5: of them are liberals, and the Supreme Court is never

1156
01:10:58,613 --> 01:10:59,533
Speaker 5: able to get anywhere.

1157
01:10:59,573 --> 01:11:00,653
Speaker 2: They're fighting with each other.

1158
01:11:01,213 --> 01:11:05,693
Speaker 3: And so how would you summarize your approach at the moment, Well, my.

1159
01:11:05,653 --> 01:11:09,933
Speaker 5: Approach is the American approach. The States was created by

1160
01:11:09,973 --> 01:11:14,253
Speaker 5: the Founders for not to work, so that there was

1161
01:11:14,333 --> 01:11:17,053
Speaker 5: no such thing as tyranny with one person coming out

1162
01:11:17,093 --> 01:11:20,653
Speaker 5: and control continually and so on. So we have our

1163
01:11:20,693 --> 01:11:25,293
Speaker 5: three branches, we have our sovereign states, and the problem

1164
01:11:25,373 --> 01:11:28,493
Speaker 5: with the system is it can't get anything done because

1165
01:11:28,693 --> 01:11:31,533
Speaker 5: trying to get things done are very difficult. So the

1166
01:11:31,653 --> 01:11:33,653
Speaker 5: kind of thing you would expect in a country with

1167
01:11:33,653 --> 01:11:37,653
Speaker 5: the prime minister it was in charge simply getting things

1168
01:11:37,693 --> 01:11:41,293
Speaker 5: done don't work that way in the United States. It's

1169
01:11:41,333 --> 01:11:45,013
Speaker 5: a really tough job. Biden has been torn apart by it,

1170
01:11:45,053 --> 01:11:48,293
Speaker 5: and he tore the self aside by it. It's just

1171
01:11:48,333 --> 01:11:49,173
Speaker 5: the way it works.

1172
01:11:49,813 --> 01:11:53,093
Speaker 3: So finally, then the storm before the calm, the book

1173
01:11:53,133 --> 01:11:56,413
Speaker 3: that we have been discussing, how would you say you

1174
01:11:56,533 --> 01:12:00,133
Speaker 3: feel about your position on that you've taken in this

1175
01:12:00,173 --> 01:12:02,213
Speaker 3: book in the current climate.

1176
01:12:02,733 --> 01:12:05,773
Speaker 5: Well, I said that at that time a next few years,

1177
01:12:05,773 --> 01:12:11,173
Speaker 5: we're going to be terrifically unstable and pretty terrifically unstable

1178
01:12:11,173 --> 01:12:14,133
Speaker 5: in the United States, but no more unstable that it's

1179
01:12:14,133 --> 01:12:18,693
Speaker 5: been at these points of cycle before. What we were

1180
01:12:18,733 --> 01:12:23,213
Speaker 5: to see after this in five years is a dramatic

1181
01:12:23,293 --> 01:12:27,973
Speaker 5: turnaround as we had in the past, where the country

1182
01:12:28,053 --> 01:12:32,493
Speaker 5: booms and develops and then in due course collapses again

1183
01:12:32,533 --> 01:12:37,373
Speaker 5: and goes around. So we were built to fail and

1184
01:12:37,453 --> 01:12:42,853
Speaker 5: all of the conspiracies against the nation fail. The fact

1185
01:12:42,973 --> 01:12:47,053
Speaker 5: that is just too complicated to get fire. You working

1186
01:12:47,053 --> 01:12:50,093
Speaker 5: on a new book, I am. It's a book about

1187
01:12:50,693 --> 01:12:54,333
Speaker 5: of the moon and the function that the moon will

1188
01:12:54,373 --> 01:12:58,133
Speaker 5: serve in foreign policy in the coming years. In this

1189
01:12:58,253 --> 01:12:59,973
Speaker 5: Longe book, it's tiresome.

1190
01:13:00,533 --> 01:13:02,093
Speaker 3: In this current cycle.

1191
01:13:03,453 --> 01:13:07,853
Speaker 5: Though, that'll be. The US is currently putting these on

1192
01:13:07,893 --> 01:13:10,533
Speaker 5: the moon. It within two years we're going to have

1193
01:13:10,813 --> 01:13:14,933
Speaker 5: colonies on the Moon. So when the United States wants

1194
01:13:14,973 --> 01:13:18,093
Speaker 5: to do something, it does it well. And the United

1195
01:13:18,133 --> 01:13:20,133
Speaker 5: States are going to dominate the Moon, which means the

1196
01:13:20,173 --> 01:13:22,013
Speaker 5: shoot looks down the throat of everybody else.

1197
01:13:22,533 --> 01:13:26,053
Speaker 3: So once again, thank you, appreciate your time, and we

1198
01:13:26,093 --> 01:13:30,453
Speaker 3: will converse at some stage while we're both still on

1199
01:13:30,493 --> 01:13:34,253
Speaker 3: the planet. While we're both still on the planet.

1200
01:13:34,693 --> 01:13:36,293
Speaker 2: I'll be here. I'm too mean to go.

1201
01:13:37,173 --> 01:13:40,853
Speaker 3: I thought you might go to the moon. George, Thanks

1202
01:13:40,853 --> 01:13:41,173
Speaker 3: so much.

1203
01:13:41,893 --> 01:13:54,853
Speaker 2: Take care. Bye, Layton Smith.

1204
01:13:55,173 --> 01:13:58,053
Speaker 3: Now to the mail room for podcasts number two hundred

1205
01:13:58,053 --> 01:14:01,373
Speaker 3: and forty seven. Missus producer has returned. She's been back

1206
01:14:01,413 --> 01:14:04,733
Speaker 3: for three nights and still be covering later.

1207
01:14:05,333 --> 01:14:08,053
Speaker 6: So lovely to be home. I'm sorry I have brought

1208
01:14:08,093 --> 01:14:11,533
Speaker 6: with me a fearsome cold, but what do you expect

1209
01:14:11,573 --> 01:14:15,053
Speaker 6: when you travel twenty four hours on a couple of planes.

1210
01:14:16,173 --> 01:14:19,373
Speaker 6: But it was a wonderful holiday with my daughters. But

1211
01:14:19,573 --> 01:14:21,013
Speaker 6: it is wonderful to be home.

1212
01:14:21,613 --> 01:14:23,693
Speaker 3: I just got an email by the way from and

1213
01:14:23,733 --> 01:14:25,693
Speaker 3: it's wonderful to have you back home. By that, thank you.

1214
01:14:25,813 --> 01:14:27,533
Speaker 3: I just got an email just a short while ago

1215
01:14:27,613 --> 01:14:32,853
Speaker 3: from somebody who is well known in business circles who

1216
01:14:33,773 --> 01:14:37,693
Speaker 3: sought my advice on New Orleans and followed it again.

1217
01:14:37,773 --> 01:14:39,733
Speaker 3: I'm going to get a full report tomorrow because he

1218
01:14:39,813 --> 01:14:42,693
Speaker 3: got caught by the hurricane when he was in Houston,

1219
01:14:42,773 --> 01:14:46,373
Speaker 3: had to layover. I guess that wouldn't have been fun.

1220
01:14:46,973 --> 01:14:51,333
Speaker 3: So why why did you warm up? Because you've gotten

1221
01:14:51,373 --> 01:14:51,973
Speaker 3: a bit chilled?

1222
01:14:52,093 --> 01:14:55,733
Speaker 6: I will so, Jin says. When James Bovard started a

1223
01:14:55,773 --> 01:15:00,053
Speaker 6: recent survey showing that thirty percent of young adults supported

1224
01:15:00,173 --> 01:15:04,933
Speaker 6: mandatory government surveillance inside their homes, I wondered what in

1225
01:15:04,973 --> 01:15:07,653
Speaker 6: the world could possess them to so freely surrender their

1226
01:15:07,653 --> 01:15:12,773
Speaker 6: personal free Then James himself answered my question. This is

1227
01:15:12,813 --> 01:15:16,173
Speaker 6: the result of a young adult population who is quote

1228
01:15:16,453 --> 01:15:20,813
Speaker 6: unfamiliar with life living free from government control, having only

1229
01:15:20,853 --> 01:15:24,253
Speaker 6: lived through COVID. In other words, they learned from COVID

1230
01:15:24,253 --> 01:15:28,133
Speaker 6: that their freedom's are government driven, not God given. They

1231
01:15:28,213 --> 01:15:32,533
Speaker 6: remember COVID vividly, but they forget Nazi Germany. Kids from

1232
01:15:32,533 --> 01:15:34,973
Speaker 6: a young age have been taught how to protest, but

1233
01:15:35,213 --> 01:15:38,773
Speaker 6: not taught the right things to protest against. They are

1234
01:15:38,853 --> 01:15:42,133
Speaker 6: taught to fight for their freedoms but not taught what

1235
01:15:42,253 --> 01:15:46,093
Speaker 6: true freedom is. They are taught skills but not knowledge.

1236
01:15:46,533 --> 01:15:50,533
Speaker 6: I recall a recent interview Jordan Peterson conducted with Britain's

1237
01:15:50,733 --> 01:15:56,573
Speaker 6: strictest headmistress, Katherine Berbelsingh. She founded London's Michaela community school,

1238
01:15:57,133 --> 01:16:02,053
Speaker 6: which received Britain's highest Progress eight score, outperforming even the

1239
01:16:02,093 --> 01:16:06,733
Speaker 6: most expensive private schools in the UK. She said, should

1240
01:16:06,773 --> 01:16:10,733
Speaker 6: we teach them knowledge or we teach them skills? How

1241
01:16:10,773 --> 01:16:13,213
Speaker 6: to think is a skill and it can only be

1242
01:16:13,253 --> 01:16:16,493
Speaker 6: done within a particular domain. I don't know how to

1243
01:16:16,533 --> 01:16:19,653
Speaker 6: think about cars. If you, for instance, if you put

1244
01:16:19,653 --> 01:16:21,493
Speaker 6: a car in front of me and said create a

1245
01:16:21,533 --> 01:16:23,533
Speaker 6: different kind of car, I wouldn't know what to do

1246
01:16:23,613 --> 01:16:26,413
Speaker 6: because I don't know what to think about cars. But

1247
01:16:26,533 --> 01:16:28,853
Speaker 6: if you tell me to turn education on its head,

1248
01:16:28,893 --> 01:16:33,053
Speaker 6: I've done exactly that. I've been very radical. I've thought

1249
01:16:33,093 --> 01:16:37,133
Speaker 6: outside the box and I've done things very differently. Why

1250
01:16:37,213 --> 01:16:40,613
Speaker 6: Because I know education inside out. The only way you

1251
01:16:40,693 --> 01:16:43,493
Speaker 6: can think in a creative manner, or think outside the

1252
01:16:43,533 --> 01:16:48,293
Speaker 6: box and have independent thoughts about anything is to know

1253
01:16:48,413 --> 01:16:51,893
Speaker 6: it really well. So that means children at school level

1254
01:16:51,933 --> 01:16:55,013
Speaker 6: need to be taught loads of knowledge. And that was

1255
01:16:55,133 --> 01:17:00,973
Speaker 6: Catherine Berbelsingh's commentary. In Your podcast one seven two, Professor

1256
01:17:01,013 --> 01:17:04,453
Speaker 6: Elizabeth Rater said the same thing. She said, we teach

1257
01:17:04,533 --> 01:17:09,013
Speaker 6: knowledge to children, we don't teach children. In podcast one

1258
01:17:09,093 --> 01:17:12,413
Speaker 6: nine nine, Patrick Gale said that students need to have

1259
01:17:12,493 --> 01:17:15,773
Speaker 6: knowledge in order for them to think. Dr Michael Johnson

1260
01:17:15,853 --> 01:17:18,013
Speaker 6: said that students don't know what they need to know,

1261
01:17:18,373 --> 01:17:21,773
Speaker 6: so the teachers need to tell them what they need

1262
01:17:21,773 --> 01:17:24,893
Speaker 6: to know. So it all comes back down to education.

1263
01:17:25,413 --> 01:17:29,533
Speaker 6: Climate change is not an existential threat, but clueless children are.

1264
01:17:30,533 --> 01:17:33,373
Speaker 3: Oh, I like that. I can think of one or

1265
01:17:33,413 --> 01:17:37,773
Speaker 3: two or ten and now thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Later

1266
01:17:37,813 --> 01:17:41,493
Speaker 3: and this was over James Bouvard, and I think I

1267
01:17:41,533 --> 01:17:44,933
Speaker 3: read this last week, but there was there was something

1268
01:17:45,613 --> 01:17:48,493
Speaker 3: or did I I can't recall either I read it

1269
01:17:48,573 --> 01:17:51,813
Speaker 3: last week thinking there was something else to come back

1270
01:17:51,853 --> 01:17:54,133
Speaker 3: to so I would or I didn't read it last week.

1271
01:17:54,173 --> 01:17:56,653
Speaker 3: So I'm now tackling it for the first time. I've

1272
01:17:56,853 --> 01:18:00,373
Speaker 3: got to do better, must do better, must try harder.

1273
01:18:00,933 --> 01:18:03,613
Speaker 3: Thoroughly enjoyed this episode. Later in great banter and insight

1274
01:18:03,693 --> 01:18:07,853
Speaker 3: between the two of you, just one glaring omission a

1275
01:18:07,893 --> 01:18:12,413
Speaker 3: president candidate not mentioned even once, one who the mainstream

1276
01:18:12,413 --> 01:18:15,493
Speaker 3: media have elected to ignore, much to my surprise, you,

1277
01:18:15,933 --> 01:18:18,093
Speaker 3: who I do not consider to be mainstream, and the

1278
01:18:18,133 --> 01:18:23,013
Speaker 3: slightest have ignored to my knowledge so far. Rfk jor

1279
01:18:23,693 --> 01:18:27,853
Speaker 3: Robert Kennedy is most certainly in this presidential running, and

1280
01:18:27,933 --> 01:18:30,733
Speaker 3: running as an independent should not preclude him from the

1281
01:18:30,813 --> 01:18:34,493
Speaker 3: debate nor from the media's consideration. He did that he

1282
01:18:34,693 --> 01:18:38,613
Speaker 3: is a threat to the hegemonic status quo in America,

1283
01:18:39,213 --> 01:18:42,373
Speaker 3: all the more reason to be tuning in. CNN did

1284
01:18:42,413 --> 01:18:44,893
Speaker 3: not allow him to be on the debate for so

1285
01:18:45,053 --> 01:18:48,053
Speaker 3: he answered all of the questions on a stream of Twitter,

1286
01:18:48,773 --> 01:18:52,453
Speaker 3: much more eloquent than the other two. Also, I might add,

1287
01:18:52,653 --> 01:18:55,653
Speaker 3: the state that Biden is in makes you wonder who

1288
01:18:55,693 --> 01:19:01,013
Speaker 3: is actually running the show. It's certainly not him. I'm

1289
01:19:01,053 --> 01:19:03,733
Speaker 3: not going to explain anymore. But I read letters and

1290
01:19:03,773 --> 01:19:05,973
Speaker 3: I can't remember whether they were on air or off here,

1291
01:19:06,013 --> 01:19:09,253
Speaker 3: so to speak. Sometimes but there was something missing from here,

1292
01:19:09,293 --> 01:19:10,933
Speaker 3: and I think it might be in another one. So

1293
01:19:10,973 --> 01:19:12,733
Speaker 3: I could be getting confused. We'll wait and see what's

1294
01:19:12,773 --> 01:19:13,973
Speaker 3: in the in the pile.

1295
01:19:14,053 --> 01:19:18,293
Speaker 6: Ladon George says. Recent government roading announcements include the option

1296
01:19:18,413 --> 01:19:24,173
Speaker 6: of funding significant projects through tolls. Recent Successful examples include

1297
01:19:24,213 --> 01:19:30,013
Speaker 6: the Papamoa to Pangurea bypass, Takatimu Drive in Tawonga, and

1298
01:19:30,093 --> 01:19:34,173
Speaker 6: the State Highway one tunnel, diverting heavy traffic away from

1299
01:19:34,173 --> 01:19:38,013
Speaker 6: Ariwa to provide a direct route through to Puhoi and

1300
01:19:38,093 --> 01:19:41,573
Speaker 6: the North All three have delivered savings in travel time

1301
01:19:41,653 --> 01:19:45,493
Speaker 6: and running costs. Similarly, the Auckland Harbor Bridge was also

1302
01:19:45,573 --> 01:19:49,173
Speaker 6: paid for through tolls and revolutionized State Highway one travel

1303
01:19:49,413 --> 01:19:54,053
Speaker 6: and the development of the north shore. Another successful project

1304
01:19:54,093 --> 01:19:56,493
Speaker 6: in the Bay of Plenty is the large scale flood

1305
01:19:56,573 --> 01:19:59,573
Speaker 6: protection works carried out on the lower reaches of the

1306
01:19:59,653 --> 01:20:04,373
Speaker 6: Kaituna River. Through redirecting parts of the river and the

1307
01:20:04,413 --> 01:20:09,213
Speaker 6: construction of substantial stock banks. The protection of of surrounding

1308
01:20:09,333 --> 01:20:13,773
Speaker 6: farmland from perennial flooding allowed highly fertile land to reach

1309
01:20:13,813 --> 01:20:18,373
Speaker 6: its productive potential. Those works were funded through targeted rating

1310
01:20:18,413 --> 01:20:21,373
Speaker 6: of the landowners, who were rewarded with the certainty of

1311
01:20:21,453 --> 01:20:27,013
Speaker 6: flood protection and resulting increased productivity. The value of these

1312
01:20:27,053 --> 01:20:31,453
Speaker 6: projects is beyond question. Effective flood protection works on the

1313
01:20:31,613 --> 01:20:35,973
Speaker 6: Esque and Wiroer rivers may have made a substantial difference

1314
01:20:35,973 --> 01:20:39,933
Speaker 6: to the devastating outcome now faced by residents and producers

1315
01:20:39,933 --> 01:20:45,373
Speaker 6: on those fertile river flats. Increased targeted rating costs would

1316
01:20:45,413 --> 01:20:48,813
Speaker 6: no doubt have been welcomed rather than the enormous cost

1317
01:20:48,973 --> 01:20:54,213
Speaker 6: and heartache resulting from insufficient flood mitigation measures in an

1318
01:20:54,253 --> 01:20:57,493
Speaker 6: area prone to flash flooding. And that's from George.

1319
01:20:57,773 --> 01:21:01,373
Speaker 3: George very Well said thank you. Going back to the

1320
01:21:02,253 --> 01:21:05,453
Speaker 3: Robert Kennedy one, somewhere, I think I worked it out.

1321
01:21:05,493 --> 01:21:08,613
Speaker 3: Somewhere there's another one talking about Kent, Robert Kennedy not

1322
01:21:08,613 --> 01:21:15,213
Speaker 3: not being well, being denied protection by the Secret Service.

1323
01:21:16,573 --> 01:21:20,813
Speaker 3: Biden himself said no. The White House Oval Office said no,

1324
01:21:21,373 --> 01:21:24,053
Speaker 3: bugger off. What was I going to do it now?

1325
01:21:24,213 --> 01:21:28,733
Speaker 3: From Bryce in brisnoy Land, except he's not. I'm currently

1326
01:21:28,973 --> 01:21:32,933
Speaker 3: in the South. My lad is currently at Space Camp

1327
01:21:33,053 --> 01:21:36,453
Speaker 3: at the US Space and Rocket Center in Huntsville in Alabama.

1328
01:21:37,053 --> 01:21:40,453
Speaker 3: We've been here since July four and were at the

1329
01:21:40,573 --> 01:21:45,613
Speaker 3: downtown Nashville fireworks, et cetera. I've been staying in Huntsville

1330
01:21:45,653 --> 01:21:48,933
Speaker 3: and Nashville. I'm off to Jack Daniel's distillery today, one

1331
01:21:48,973 --> 01:21:54,933
Speaker 3: of his left and the and the Opry tonight. There

1332
01:21:55,013 --> 01:21:58,693
Speaker 3: seem to be two main views here. Trump will win

1333
01:21:59,133 --> 01:22:01,613
Speaker 3: and why is it. These two are the best that

1334
01:22:01,613 --> 01:22:05,333
Speaker 3: we can put forward. No one I've spoken with, including

1335
01:22:05,413 --> 01:22:10,013
Speaker 3: other space Camp parents from all over the States, believes

1336
01:22:10,013 --> 01:22:13,213
Speaker 3: that Biden will win, and there is a palpable dismay

1337
01:22:13,253 --> 01:22:16,133
Speaker 3: that he is actually running. Cheers images attacked. Thank you,

1338
01:22:16,173 --> 01:22:20,093
Speaker 3: I've got the images. I've got another one somewhere to

1339
01:22:20,133 --> 01:22:23,853
Speaker 3: do with that, but not with me today. And one

1340
01:22:23,933 --> 01:22:31,373
Speaker 3: more um now this comes from Australia, ed As I

1341
01:22:31,453 --> 01:22:33,773
Speaker 3: will refer to you as may I writes a very

1342
01:22:33,853 --> 01:22:40,453
Speaker 3: simple letter subject awful, Guy Hatchett saying last week we

1343
01:22:40,493 --> 01:22:45,453
Speaker 3: want the COVID nineteen pandemic to never happen again. As

1344
01:22:45,453 --> 01:22:49,693
Speaker 3: a lifelong applied scientist, I deleted the podcast straight away.

1345
01:22:50,573 --> 01:22:54,453
Speaker 3: Has there ever been a vaccine or medical treatment anywhere

1346
01:22:54,533 --> 01:23:01,053
Speaker 3: without unintended consequences and occasionally serious side effects. Now at

1347
01:23:01,053 --> 01:23:04,293
Speaker 3: that point I almost screwed it up myself. I'm thinking

1348
01:23:04,373 --> 01:23:06,333
Speaker 3: missing out on a bit of information, a lot of

1349
01:23:06,333 --> 01:23:10,493
Speaker 3: it maybe on the mRNA vaccines or so called vaccines,

1350
01:23:10,773 --> 01:23:14,773
Speaker 3: and what's taken place, what's been revealed in a number

1351
01:23:14,813 --> 01:23:18,973
Speaker 3: of instances in different parts of the world, North America, Europe,

1352
01:23:19,533 --> 01:23:24,213
Speaker 3: is that the company's developing these so called vaccines hid

1353
01:23:24,493 --> 01:23:28,733
Speaker 3: lots and lots of information, lied about lots of things.

1354
01:23:29,333 --> 01:23:33,053
Speaker 3: And that's the point that everyone's upset about. In particular,

1355
01:23:33,493 --> 01:23:36,253
Speaker 3: is that they were given and forced in many many

1356
01:23:36,293 --> 01:23:41,213
Speaker 3: cases to take the shots, and they were unproven and

1357
01:23:41,293 --> 01:23:46,493
Speaker 3: in some cases shown to have a considerable downside, and

1358
01:23:46,533 --> 01:23:47,973
Speaker 3: it was a matter of pot luck who got it

1359
01:23:48,013 --> 01:23:51,413
Speaker 3: and who didn't the downside. I mean, I just think

1360
01:23:51,453 --> 01:23:54,213
Speaker 3: you've rushed into this judgment too much. And I say

1361
01:23:54,253 --> 01:23:56,813
Speaker 3: that with the greatest respect. Because he concludes, thanks for

1362
01:23:56,853 --> 01:24:00,853
Speaker 3: the great podcast anyway, and thanks for your letter, missus producer.

1363
01:24:01,573 --> 01:24:04,173
Speaker 3: I'm going to release you now. Thank you. You may

1364
01:24:04,253 --> 01:24:05,413
Speaker 3: take to the void.

1365
01:24:06,493 --> 01:24:08,053
Speaker 6: Yes, I'll go and rest my voice.

1366
01:24:08,613 --> 01:24:12,133
Speaker 3: I think you're better anyway, as long as I can

1367
01:24:12,213 --> 01:24:13,453
Speaker 3: understand you take care.

1368
01:24:14,933 --> 01:24:17,613
Speaker 2: Most of the time. Anyway, rags later.

1369
01:24:25,813 --> 01:24:28,773
Speaker 3: Now, if you don't have enough to assimilate with regard

1370
01:24:28,813 --> 01:24:32,853
Speaker 3: to the attempted assassination of Donald Trump, the sorts of

1371
01:24:33,013 --> 01:24:37,293
Speaker 3: Ron Paul, the retired American senator are worthy for a

1372
01:24:37,373 --> 01:24:40,533
Speaker 3: number of reasons, and they'll reveal themselves. I just want

1373
01:24:40,533 --> 01:24:42,453
Speaker 3: to point out that he makes reference here to a

1374
01:24:42,533 --> 01:24:45,453
Speaker 3: couple of things that I said in the discussion with George,

1375
01:24:46,293 --> 01:24:50,693
Speaker 3: But I only found this well a day later, actually

1376
01:24:50,733 --> 01:24:53,893
Speaker 3: just before we went to air, So this was published

1377
01:24:53,933 --> 01:24:58,053
Speaker 3: on the sixteenth of July. Why we'll never know what

1378
01:24:58,253 --> 01:25:03,453
Speaker 3: really happened in Butler, Pennsylvania, just days after the attempted

1379
01:25:03,453 --> 01:25:07,373
Speaker 3: assassination of former President Donald Trump. Theories are flying from

1380
01:25:07,413 --> 01:25:13,053
Speaker 3: all directions. Many who ridiculed the conspiracy theories of conservatives

1381
01:25:13,413 --> 01:25:16,493
Speaker 3: are now suggesting the whole event was a set up

1382
01:25:17,013 --> 01:25:19,493
Speaker 3: at to boost Trump and the polls ahead of the election.

1383
01:25:20,173 --> 01:25:23,733
Speaker 3: Others suggested was the Deep State or even foreign actors

1384
01:25:23,733 --> 01:25:27,573
Speaker 3: who organized it. Former US Navy seal and founder of

1385
01:25:27,573 --> 01:25:31,693
Speaker 3: Blackwater Eric Prince claims that the fact that the Secret

1386
01:25:31,813 --> 01:25:35,213
Speaker 3: Service allowed a rifle armed shooter within one hundred and

1387
01:25:35,253 --> 01:25:39,493
Speaker 3: fifty yards to a pre planned event is either malice

1388
01:25:39,733 --> 01:25:44,573
Speaker 3: or massive incompetence. That's a direct quote. He went on

1389
01:25:44,653 --> 01:25:49,413
Speaker 3: to observe that again quote, unaccountable, bloated bureaucracies continued to

1390
01:25:49,413 --> 01:25:53,533
Speaker 3: fail us as Americans, adding that un serious and unworthy

1391
01:25:53,573 --> 01:25:57,933
Speaker 3: people in positions of authority got us to this near disaster.

1392
01:25:58,853 --> 01:26:02,213
Speaker 3: Merit and execution must be the only deciding factors in

1393
01:26:02,333 --> 01:26:06,693
Speaker 3: hiring and leadership, not the social engineering priority of the day.

1394
01:26:07,093 --> 01:26:10,053
Speaker 3: Video has emerged that for at least two minutes, law

1395
01:26:10,133 --> 01:26:12,853
Speaker 3: enforcement knew someone with a gun was on the roof

1396
01:26:12,893 --> 01:26:16,373
Speaker 3: aiming at the former president, and no one communicated the

1397
01:26:16,413 --> 01:26:19,533
Speaker 3: need to pull Trump from the stage. You can clearly

1398
01:26:19,533 --> 01:26:23,373
Speaker 3: hear the crowd warning law enforcement that someone was on

1399
01:26:23,453 --> 01:26:27,773
Speaker 3: the roof, yet he was unhindered until the first shots

1400
01:26:27,853 --> 01:26:31,213
Speaker 3: rang out. Considering this fact, Erik Prince has a point.

1401
01:26:31,453 --> 01:26:34,373
Speaker 3: If this is like any previous governmental foul ups, we

1402
01:26:34,493 --> 01:26:38,933
Speaker 3: can expect hearings, investigations, and commissions that will actually serve

1403
01:26:39,013 --> 01:26:42,733
Speaker 3: to hide the official errors or even malicious intent by

1404
01:26:42,773 --> 01:26:46,293
Speaker 3: some in the government. That's what government does, no matter

1405
01:26:46,453 --> 01:26:50,333
Speaker 3: who is in office, protect itself from actual scrutiny and

1406
01:26:50,573 --> 01:26:54,813
Speaker 3: resist being exposed as incompetence or worse. But what if

1407
01:26:54,853 --> 01:26:58,893
Speaker 3: there was a genuine investigation that actually revealed the truth

1408
01:26:58,933 --> 01:27:01,493
Speaker 3: about what happened at the Trump rally over the weekend?

1409
01:27:02,213 --> 01:27:06,333
Speaker 3: Could we rely on the mainstream media to even report it.

1410
01:27:07,093 --> 01:27:09,893
Speaker 3: This is the same media that, after Trump was clearly

1411
01:27:09,933 --> 01:27:15,773
Speaker 3: shot on live television, reported Trump escorted away after loud

1412
01:27:15,813 --> 01:27:20,373
Speaker 3: noises at PA rally The Washington Post. But I just say,

1413
01:27:20,813 --> 01:27:23,333
Speaker 3: don't ever believe anything that comes from the Washington post

1414
01:27:23,813 --> 01:27:29,133
Speaker 3: until it is confirmed by about ten sources. And secondly,

1415
01:27:29,573 --> 01:27:33,693
Speaker 3: Secret Service rushes Trump off stage after he falls at

1416
01:27:33,773 --> 01:27:38,613
Speaker 3: rally CNN. This is the same mainstream media that's been

1417
01:27:38,613 --> 01:27:41,893
Speaker 3: comparing Donald Trump to Hitler for years and now pretends

1418
01:27:41,893 --> 01:27:46,213
Speaker 3: to be shocked that their vile retoric ended up in violence.

1419
01:27:47,053 --> 01:27:49,293
Speaker 3: There is a good reason why the mainstream media is

1420
01:27:49,333 --> 01:27:53,333
Speaker 3: regarded by the American public with record levels of contempt.

1421
01:27:54,253 --> 01:27:57,813
Speaker 3: The current Director of the Secret Service has been interviewed

1422
01:27:57,933 --> 01:28:02,973
Speaker 3: expressing her dedication to diversity in hiring agents. What of

1423
01:28:03,053 --> 01:28:07,293
Speaker 3: her dedication to deigals led to an agency that is

1424
01:28:07,413 --> 01:28:11,813
Speaker 3: more diverse es but fails at its core mission. Can

1425
01:28:11,853 --> 01:28:13,973
Speaker 3: we rely on the media to inform us of this

1426
01:28:14,933 --> 01:28:18,853
Speaker 3: or will they, as usual, disblame it all on the

1427
01:28:18,893 --> 01:28:22,173
Speaker 3: Second Amendment, that is, the right to bear arms. What

1428
01:28:22,293 --> 01:28:24,893
Speaker 3: if the problem with the Secret Service is that it

1429
01:28:25,013 --> 01:28:29,133
Speaker 3: was moved into the bloated, incompetent, and menacing Department of

1430
01:28:29,133 --> 01:28:33,053
Speaker 3: Homeland Security, the creation of which I strongly opposed when

1431
01:28:33,093 --> 01:28:35,693
Speaker 3: I was in Congress. We shouldn't count on hearing the

1432
01:28:35,773 --> 01:28:39,813
Speaker 3: truth about the attempted assassination from the mainstream media. No wonder,

1433
01:28:39,853 --> 01:28:44,973
Speaker 3: the elites remain determined to censor social media sites like Twitter,

1434
01:28:45,053 --> 01:28:49,773
Speaker 3: slash x, and TikTok. We live in an empire of lies,

1435
01:28:49,933 --> 01:28:52,733
Speaker 3: propped up by the mainstream media, and seeking the truth

1436
01:28:52,773 --> 01:28:56,173
Speaker 3: in this empire of lies is the greatest challenge for

1437
01:28:56,333 --> 01:29:00,053
Speaker 3: us in the moral bankruptcy in which we live. I

1438
01:29:00,133 --> 01:29:04,613
Speaker 3: applaud that the editorial piece from Ron Paul and there

1439
01:29:04,613 --> 01:29:08,533
Speaker 3: we have podcast number two hundred and forty seven. Like

1440
01:29:08,573 --> 01:29:11,453
Speaker 3: to correspond with us. Love to hear from you, particularly

1441
01:29:12,013 --> 01:29:14,173
Speaker 3: with regard to some of the comments that were made

1442
01:29:14,213 --> 01:29:17,933
Speaker 3: today in the interviews. Whatever you think, love to see it.

1443
01:29:18,773 --> 01:29:21,853
Speaker 3: So latent at news Talks AB dot co dot nz

1444
01:29:22,293 --> 01:29:25,053
Speaker 3: or Carolyn with a wy Carolyn at Newstalks AB dot

1445
01:29:25,053 --> 01:29:28,253
Speaker 3: co dot nz. The two forty eight is up next

1446
01:29:28,813 --> 01:29:32,533
Speaker 3: in the meantime. As always, thank you for listening and

1447
01:29:32,613 --> 01:29:33,533
Speaker 3: we shall talk soon.

1448
01:29:41,453 --> 01:29:45,493
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks B Listen live

1449
01:29:45,653 --> 01:29:48,373
Speaker 1: on air or online, and keep our shows with you

1450
01:29:48,453 --> 01:29:51,453
Speaker 1: wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.