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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of this US. Now the

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Speaker 1: lighton Smith podcast, Now it by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty three for August

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Speaker 2: twenty eight, twenty twenty four. Without an anchor in biological reality,

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Speaker 2: laws based on sex become meaningless and justice cannot be served,

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Speaker 2: so wrote evolutionary biologist Colin Wright. Jill Ovans, national secretary

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Speaker 2: co leader of the Women's Rights Party, responds to the

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Speaker 2: decision of an Australian judge's ruling that sex is changeable

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Speaker 2: in a case involving gender identity, and I might say

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Speaker 2: that common sense rules mightily in her favor. After the

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Speaker 2: Stephen Rainbow interview in two five to two, this discussion

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Speaker 2: with jill Ovans is a natural follow on. And then,

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Speaker 2: exactly five years to the day after we interviewed Ben

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Speaker 2: Tellablue on the Middle East, especially Iran, he returns with

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Speaker 2: much insight to the current crisis, or should I say crises.

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Speaker 2: It is one of the most rewarding interviews that I

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Speaker 2: think I've done. You judge for yourself and the mail

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Speaker 2: room as a result of last week's podcast is one

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Speaker 2: of the best. Now, because this is a lengthy podcast

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Speaker 2: with two interviews, I'm going to cut my comments to

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Speaker 2: an absolute minimum outside of those interviews in the mailroom.

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Speaker 2: So Jill Ovans is next. It was last Friday, when

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Speaker 2: I was reading the Australian newspaper a little later in

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Speaker 2: the day that I made a discovery I suppose to

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Speaker 2: some degree now, I have to say, but angered me

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Speaker 2: more than amuse at the time because it was yet

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Speaker 2: another step in the idiotic direction that the world is taking.

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Speaker 2: It was the case of a transgender woman, Roxanne Tickle,

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Speaker 2: who won a novel gender discrimination case in the High

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Speaker 2: Court in Australia, in the Federal Court of Australia actually,

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Speaker 2: and it was in Sydney on Friday. I want to

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Speaker 2: for those who don't know much about it at this

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Speaker 2: point of time, I want to quote a law lecturer

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Speaker 2: from Australia name of Rachel Wong who wrote the following

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Speaker 2: I'm sitting here reflecting on this morning's verdict in Tickle

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Speaker 2: versus Giggle and flipping between being outraged at the fact

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Speaker 2: that women and girls have no sex based rights in Australia,

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Speaker 2: are not even recognized as a legal category anymore in

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Speaker 2: Australia and sort of being like, well, we've already known

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Speaker 2: this for some time. I still feel like I'm in

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Speaker 2: the twilight zone after sitting in the Federal caught this

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Speaker 2: morning and listening to a judge declare the erasure of

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Speaker 2: women and our sex base rights in Australia in favor

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Speaker 2: of the feelings of a man he calls miss Tickle. Now,

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Speaker 2: that was an introduction to it from the spectator a

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Speaker 2: little later, but the point being that there is a

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Speaker 2: very big battle that's going on and it looks like

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Speaker 2: that this particular point of time, it's being lost. One

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Speaker 2: who is not prepared to sit by and watch that

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Speaker 2: loss take its place is Jill Ovens. Jill Ovens is

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Speaker 2: a shall we say, a retired Labor Party member. She

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Speaker 2: has had much to do with this particular scene and

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Speaker 2: she's picked up the battle yet again. Jill. It's very

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Speaker 2: good to have you on the podcast.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: When did you find out the result of this? By

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Speaker 2: the way, just to put it in place.

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Speaker 4: Well, it came out New Zealand time at eleven o'clock

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Speaker 4: on the Friday, so it was all over social media

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Speaker 4: very soon afterwards. That that's when I became aware and

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Speaker 4: subsequently went to the judge's summary, in which he says

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Speaker 4: that there's been thirty years of law cases proving that

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Speaker 4: sex can be changed. We would say, biologists would say

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Speaker 4: that's not the case.

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Speaker 2: Well, I would say there's not a single illegal case

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Speaker 2: that has decided that sex can be changed. They may

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Speaker 2: have opinionated on it, but they certainly haven't decided it, because,

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Speaker 2: as you point out, it's the biological argument that the

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Speaker 2: rules on it.

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Speaker 4: Nevertheless, the Australian Human Rights Commission interceded in the case,

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Speaker 4: as they're required to do under their legislation and claim

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Speaker 4: that gender trump's sex. And that's because in twenty thirteen,

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Speaker 4: under Julia Gillard's government, the Federal Government of Australia took

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Speaker 4: sex out of the Sex Discrimination Act and replaced it

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Speaker 4: with gender identity and expression. And they define gender identity

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Speaker 4: expression in terms of appearances and mannerisms and say that

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Speaker 4: it doesn't matter how you were assigned at birth in

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Speaker 4: terms of your sex. We don't agree with that terminology

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Speaker 4: assigned at birth.

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Speaker 2: By the way, well, there is one point i'd make

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Speaker 2: Kaitanji Brown Jackson, who was appointed by President Biden to

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Speaker 2: be the most recent member of the Supreme Court associated

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Speaker 2: of the Supreme Court two years ago, I was asked

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Speaker 2: that question when she was being when she was being

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Speaker 2: questioned over her attitude to things, and you would be

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Speaker 2: well familiar with the answer that she gave when she

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Speaker 2: was asked to describe could she describe a woman?

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Speaker 4: I think I saw it on TV, but I don't

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Speaker 4: remember what she said.

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Speaker 2: She said, she said no, I can't. Yeah, she's a mother,

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Speaker 2: but she can't describe. She could not and would not,

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Speaker 2: And it was more than would not, of course, because

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Speaker 2: she didn't want to fall out of favor with those

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Speaker 2: that she would fall out of favor with with if

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Speaker 2: she if she had said yes and gave a description

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Speaker 2: of a woman.

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Speaker 4: Yes. Unfortunately, the Democrats, as as many other well hard

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Speaker 4: to call the Democrats left leaning, but anyway, left leaning

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Speaker 4: political parties across the world have actually been totally captured

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Speaker 4: by the trans community and their lobbyists and allies at academia.

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Speaker 4: So yes, the Biden administration has a very big weakness

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Speaker 4: in that respect.

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Speaker 2: Why is it that they have been captured? Do you think.

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Speaker 4: It's this whole idea of the values of kindness which

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Speaker 4: seemed to override common sense and I would suggest as

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Speaker 4: actually losing these parties at a New Zealand, the Labor

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Speaker 4: Party at the Greens a lot of their previous supporters,

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Speaker 4: but they don't seem to recognize that extraordinary.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned you may mention the Hosey Parker.

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Speaker 4: Oh, yes, I was there in Albert Park. I hadn't

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Speaker 4: actually intended to go because I could see that it

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Speaker 4: was going to be, you know, a disaster because I

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Speaker 4: saw what happened in Melbourne and Hobart. But we ended

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Speaker 4: up going and I couldn't see any police presence right

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Speaker 4: for the starts, I knew we were city ducks. Yet

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Speaker 4: when the barriers were broken down by the trans allies.

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Speaker 4: I don't call them the trends gender people themselves, because

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Speaker 4: I think a lot of the people there probably heterosexual

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Speaker 4: and defined as that. But anyway, so I was there.

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Speaker 4: I was completely traumatized by it. Couldn't work for about

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Speaker 4: a week afterwards. Still can't listen to the videos with

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Speaker 4: the sound on because it was so loud it was

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Speaker 4: really traumatizing.

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Speaker 2: Did they have a go at you?

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Speaker 3: Oh, yes, they were.

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Speaker 4: I went over to say, don't push those barriers it

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Speaker 4: or words to that effect, probably a little bit more

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Speaker 4: stronger than that, but got pushed back towards the rotunder

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Speaker 4: itself and tried to talk to some of them, but

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Speaker 4: they just were screaming at the top of their voices

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Speaker 4: and we left. Posey Parker was there on the rotunder

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Speaker 4: and had been standing there for quite some time trying

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Speaker 4: to get the police to intervene, and she was doing

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Speaker 4: a live stream but the police he still didn't do

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Speaker 4: anything until she got through the crowd and was about

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Speaker 4: to be bundled into the police car out of the country.

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Speaker 2: Seeing that you've raised at at this point, let me

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Speaker 2: ask you what your opinion of the police was on

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Speaker 2: that day, and the secondly, what your overall opinion of

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Speaker 2: the police and their approach to such matters is.

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Speaker 4: I was quite surprised that they were so.

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Speaker 3: Ineffective.

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Speaker 4: I didn't realize they were even there. I was next

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Speaker 4: to a TV three reporter and camera person cameraman, and

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Speaker 4: I was yelling at.

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Speaker 3: Where are the police? Where are the police?

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Speaker 4: Ad the reporter said, yeah, it's crazy, but we could

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Speaker 4: see in later videos that they were hanging around Princess

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Speaker 4: Street in their van and doing nothing. Turns out that

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Speaker 4: the police liaison officer is himself a transgender calls himself

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Speaker 4: a transgender woman trans woman, but the police. I blamed

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Speaker 4: the police and the Labor Party because I thought labels

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Speaker 4: and government at the time that they had given a

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Speaker 4: signal to the police not to intervene like that. Turns

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Speaker 4: out I was probably wrong because I don't think they're

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Speaker 4: allowed to do that. But at the time, that was

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Speaker 4: my main motivation for leaving the Labor Party that particular night,

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Speaker 4: even though I'd had some issues with them over these

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Speaker 4: particular issues going back for the previous hit.

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Speaker 2: What do you mean, I suppose it's fairly self evident,

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Speaker 2: but I want you to tell me what you mean

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Speaker 2: by you don't think they can tell them things like that.

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Speaker 4: Well, when I put it out there that that I

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Speaker 4: thought the Minister of Police may have given them a

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Speaker 4: signal not to intervene, others informed me that the government

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Speaker 4: can't intervene in police operations. You know, you can believe

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Speaker 4: that or not. At the time, I strongly believed that

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Speaker 4: they had intervened and so then subsequent to that. They

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Speaker 4: have been effective in some of the let Women Speak

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Speaker 4: events that have been held at Parliament for example, although

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Speaker 4: they also have Parliamentary security which seems to be quite

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Speaker 4: effective in keeping the trends activists apart from women who

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Speaker 4: wish to speak on the steps of Parliament. But a

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Speaker 4: recent event we had in Wellington with Sel Grover from

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Speaker 4: Australia who is the defendant in Tickle versus Giggle.

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Speaker 3: I did go to the police.

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Speaker 4: It asked them to when I heard that the transactivists

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Speaker 4: were planning to protest at our event at Rutherford House

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Speaker 4: at Victoria University. I did go and make a report

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Speaker 4: to the police. I didn't to talk to a police

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Speaker 4: liaison officer, only got to talk to the woman on

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Speaker 4: the reception desk who's not a what do you call

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Speaker 4: it uniform police person And a report was made and

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Speaker 4: she said, oh, well, we've got a community policing team,

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Speaker 4: they'll do a drive by. Yeah, And at that time

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Speaker 4: I had the security of the people from Victoria University.

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Speaker 3: The man that I was dealing with had.

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Speaker 4: Said that the doors are shut automatically at six o'clock

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Speaker 4: and we'd be able to let people in or out.

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Speaker 4: So I was comfortable with that because I thought the

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Speaker 4: protesters would be on the other side of Bunny Street

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Speaker 4: outside Rutherford House. But then on the day of sell

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Speaker 4: Grover's event, at lunchtime, I got a call from campus

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Speaker 4: security at Victoria University telling me she had talked to

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Speaker 4: them and they were going to be peaceful. But I

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Speaker 4: had seen on Twitter that they were intending to come

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Speaker 4: into Rutherford House completely disrupt our meeting with noise, and

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Speaker 4: so I went and reported that to the police. The

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Speaker 4: campus security told me that they couldn't stop the students

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Speaker 4: coming inside the event, and that the police can't come

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Speaker 4: into Rutherford House without permission of Victoria University, and it

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Speaker 4: was clear the Victoria versy had no intention of allowing

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Speaker 4: the police to come in. As it happened, we made

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Speaker 4: a decision to shift to another alternative event, and I

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Speaker 4: put an email out telling everybody to come at five

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Speaker 4: o'clock instead of six o'clock.

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Speaker 3: It's a bit like, you know, this little piggy went

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Speaker 3: to market.

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Speaker 4: And so we were at the alternative event and we

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Speaker 4: were well underway by the time the protesters inside Rutherford

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Speaker 4: House realized because we had a spy there that we

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Speaker 4: weren't going to be at that event, and started hunting

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Speaker 4: us down around the inner city of Wellington.

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Speaker 2: I have no evidence to say that they were the

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Speaker 2: police were instructed by the government. But I have learnt

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Speaker 2: over a period of time from other parts of the world,

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Speaker 2: in particular, that you don't have to tell people who

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Speaker 2: you appoint to positions of some authority what they have

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Speaker 2: to do or what they're wanted to do. They get

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Speaker 2: appointed because they have similar attitudes and they understand what

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Speaker 2: the overriding pinion of their employer, as in the government

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Speaker 2: is and they tend to fulfill it. And there's meant

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Speaker 2: multiple examples of that.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I think the appointment of a trans woman, as

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Speaker 4: you might say, to the police liaison role with respect

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Speaker 4: to the Albert Park event, which was known to be

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Speaker 4: become problematic, would indicate that that also pick up the

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Speaker 4: general vibe of the government of the day. I should

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Speaker 4: note that in Melbourne they had police there on horseback.

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Speaker 4: They kept all the different groups because there were like

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Speaker 4: three distinct groups of protesters away from the women who

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Speaker 4: were speaking. And that's what you want, you know, you

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Speaker 4: don't want to stop protesting. I haven't got a problem

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Speaker 4: with that. It's just that the people who are protesting

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Speaker 4: should not be able to completely shut down the other side,

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Speaker 4: or more importantly, physically come into contact in a violent way.

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Speaker 2: Resort to violence. The Women's Party is a party of

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Speaker 2: women and men I note, who believe, who believe in democracy,

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Speaker 2: the equality and biological reality. Sex is binary. Human beings

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Speaker 2: cannot change sex. Women are adult humans of the female sex. Now,

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Speaker 2: you'd been an active member of the Labor Party, but

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Speaker 2: you got frustrated over the attitudes. How much did you

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Speaker 2: get to talk to other Labor Party members about all this?

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Speaker 2: And I'm going back to the earlier part when you

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Speaker 2: were still in the party.

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Speaker 4: Yes, so it might have been twenty twenty one. I

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Speaker 4: knew of a group of women within the Labor Party

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Speaker 4: who are what we call gender critical. They were on

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Speaker 4: a zoom talking about public facilities. There was a remit

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Speaker 4: from the Rainbow sector of the Labor Party that all

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Speaker 4: new buildings had to have gender neutral toilets. So some

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Speaker 4: of my women that I knew with the party had

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Speaker 4: engaged in debate in the chat and ended up before

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Speaker 4: the council with a complaint against them for what basically

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Speaker 4: was accused of being hate speech. The following year, I

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Speaker 4: wasn't involved in that particular complaint because I ham to

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Speaker 4: be on a different zoom at the time. But the

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Speaker 4: following year, in twenty twenty two, I had organized a

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Speaker 4: whoey of labor women. Over one hundred attended that whoey

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Speaker 4: and what we were to do was to go through

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Speaker 4: the policy remits that related to women, which I have

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Speaker 4: to say is most policy remits, and we broken to

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Speaker 4: commit into groups, and there was a health group and

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Speaker 4: that health group suggested an amendment to gender reassignment surgery

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Speaker 4: being the rainbow sector and wanted it to be more accessible,

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Speaker 4: and our amendment was for those aged over eighteen because

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Speaker 4: there was no age limit in it anyway. The person

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Speaker 4: who facilitated that health sector group put forward the amendment

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Speaker 4: and when she before she actually got the amendment into

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Speaker 4: the she submitted it, but before the deadline there was

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Speaker 4: a lot of pressure put on her by the Labor

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Speaker 4: Party hierarchy to pull that amendment, which she did at

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Speaker 4: the eleventh hour, so it never went to the conference,

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Speaker 4: and what was passed is a remit that doesn't have

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Speaker 4: any age specifications in it. There was also an amendment

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Speaker 4: from the group that I convened, which was about infrastructure

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Speaker 4: in the environment, and that was to do with the

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Speaker 4: disability sector, and said we need more public toilets for

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Speaker 4: those with disabilities, and we wanted to add also formen

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Speaker 4: and children and for people who are older and we

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Speaker 4: were thinking then of elderly men and having to go

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Speaker 4: to the loo quite frequently and getting caught out. So

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Speaker 4: I went to make that amendment on a zoom call

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Speaker 4: just before the twenty twenty two conference, and somebody who

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Speaker 4: is actually on the Women's Council that she is in

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Speaker 4: a relationship with a trans woman. She said, she said,

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Speaker 4: oh no, hang on, stop there, women and toilets.

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Speaker 3: That's code for transphobia.

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Speaker 4: And so the person who was running the zoom muted me,

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Speaker 4: and when I tried to come back on, wouldn't allow

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Speaker 4: me back on. So I was, you know, absolutely, How.

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Speaker 2: Would you describe them now that you've exited the party,

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Speaker 2: how would you describe the Labor Party?

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's pretty ineffective right now. It's lacking

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Speaker 4: in leadership and it is completely captured by various sectors. Actually,

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Speaker 4: so when we are in our constitution of the Women's

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Speaker 4: Rights Party, we have not got networks or sectors because

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Speaker 4: we can see how groups of people within a party

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Speaker 4: can actually push their agenda and in ways that can

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Speaker 4: get the majority to shut up basically, and that was

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Speaker 4: an example of how I was forced to shut up.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so it's really problematic, and I'll give you

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Speaker 4: an example of how it is. The Labor Party has

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Speaker 4: various councils within it for each of the sectors, and

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Speaker 4: the Women's Council on the Women's Council at the time

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Speaker 4: that I was there, the Rainbow rep on the Women's

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Speaker 4: Council identifies as a trans woman but as an effect

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Speaker 4: as actually biologically a male, and the Environment Rep on

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Speaker 4: the Women's Council as his partner.

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Speaker 3: So you could see.

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Speaker 4: And then everybody wants to be kind, you know, and

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Speaker 4: so I think at the time Jacinda was the Prime

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Speaker 4: Minister setting that example, and so you know, nothing could

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Speaker 4: be said on that Women's.

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Speaker 2: I want to suggest to you that being kind has

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Speaker 2: its place, but it's also it's also it's also capable

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Speaker 2: of doing a lot of damage if it's employed incorrectly.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's correct. I mean, I myself don't really like confrontation.

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Speaker 4: You might think that's rather odd for someone who's spent

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Speaker 4: thirty six years in the Union movement and had a

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Speaker 4: history before that of activism and political movements. But on

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Speaker 4: a personal level, I avoid confrontation. So you know, I

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Speaker 4: did observe at one of our Cell Grover meetings that

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Speaker 4: there was a man identifying as a woman.

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Speaker 3: You could tell.

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Speaker 4: He came up and spoke to us at the at

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Speaker 4: the end, and we we were really polite, of course,

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Speaker 4: and nothing was said, you know that would be unkind

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Speaker 4: at all. We were all very accepting of his presence there.

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Speaker 2: Well, let's get something straight. You you would believe this,

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Speaker 2: I know, And my attitude is one of freedom. And

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Speaker 2: if you want to dress up as a woman and

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Speaker 2: knock around that way, then go for your life if

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Speaker 2: that's what. If that's where you're at and that's what

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Speaker 2: you want, But to enter the realms of changing the

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Speaker 2: law and the rules of life and nature to accommodate

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Speaker 2: that particular approach ain't acceptable.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's right. I'd be in the private sphere. Even

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Speaker 4: in a public meeting like that was where we had.

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Speaker 4: It was open to men and women, and so there

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Speaker 4: was no problem. That's what I'm trying to say, actually

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Speaker 4: that it's when you get into women wanting to have

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Speaker 4: our own spaces. And you know, I go back to

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Speaker 4: the nineteen seventies at Auckland University. We had women's groups

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Speaker 4: which would meet and there were gay rights groups which

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Speaker 4: would meet. Well, I wouldn't go to one of those

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Speaker 4: as a person who is heterosexual, not because I've got

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Speaker 4: anything against gays, but I think that they deserve to

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Speaker 4: have their own spaces too. So it's mainly around that,

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Speaker 4: and there of competitive sport where we could see that

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Speaker 4: there is male advantage, it can't be denied and it's

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Speaker 4: very unfair on women, particularly in those combat or sports

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Speaker 4: that require explosive power.

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Speaker 3: Two.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you've we've we've just been through the Olympic Games.

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Speaker 2: That of course is the boxing and and some other things.

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Speaker 1: But that.

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Speaker 2: It tell me how you tell me how you think

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Speaker 2: that has become acceptable that you can have a man

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Speaker 2: punching up a woman and that's what it is in

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Speaker 2: a in a ring, in an international well the ultimate

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Speaker 2: and international competitions.

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Speaker 4: You could argue, yes, so particularly when there is a

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Speaker 4: major problem worldwide of a violence and assault against women.

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Speaker 4: So New Zealand is not immune to that. And so

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Speaker 4: we were watching that spectacle and there's all sorts of

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Speaker 4: assumptions made about the sex of those two competitors, which

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Speaker 4: we actually don't know. All we know is that they

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Speaker 4: have x Y chromosomes, they were tested twice. They particularly

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Speaker 4: in the case of Calieph, have clearly gone through male puberty.

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Speaker 4: And we know from the science that we read that

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Speaker 4: the male who is of the same weight as a

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Speaker 4: female has one hundred and sixty percent more punching power

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Speaker 4: than a woman. And this has to do with all

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Speaker 4: sorts of bodily changes that happen puberty, like bigger shoulders,

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Speaker 4: longer arms, bigger body, and obviously a lot more strength

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Speaker 4: and power. And this is the result of testosterone. And

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Speaker 4: we know from Kayleev's coach that his testosterone levels are

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Speaker 4: so high that they've had to use testosterone suppressants. And

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Speaker 4: we also know from the science that the testosterone level

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Speaker 4: in women is well below the range, well.

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Speaker 3: Below that of men.

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Speaker 4: I was looking at the figures last night, and it's

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Speaker 4: like fifteen to seventy of testosterone per it's mng dash

388
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Speaker 4: dl or so, they compared with men who it goes

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Speaker 4: up to a thousand at the top of the range

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Speaker 4: and the bottom of the range is two hundred and

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Speaker 4: sixty something. My figures might not be completely correct, but

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Speaker 4: that's the that's the thing. So a woman with high

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Speaker 4: levels of testosteroid still is nowhere near a man with

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Speaker 4: low levels of testosterone. And it's just, you know, people say, oh,

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Speaker 4: what about you know, they'll quote Valerie Adams, who's obviously

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Speaker 4: very strong and tall, but even if you know, at

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Speaker 4: her testosterone levels were clearly within the range of females.

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Speaker 4: Because and this is one of the points, we all

399
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Speaker 4: accept that athletes, particularly at World Championships and the Olympics,

400
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Speaker 4: get tested for testosterone because they're looking for the performance

401
00:27:46,453 --> 00:27:51,213
Speaker 4: enhancing drugs. We all accept that doping testing. And yet

402
00:27:51,253 --> 00:27:55,813
Speaker 4: since nineteen ninety nine, there has been no attempt at

403
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Speaker 4: looking at sex testing for eligibility for the female category.

404
00:28:01,293 --> 00:28:03,813
Speaker 3: And some sports have done this.

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Speaker 4: Anyway because the IOC said they could, but boxing was,

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Speaker 4: you know, it was there's a big political staut between

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Speaker 4: them and the International Boxing Association. So they allowed these

408
00:28:18,093 --> 00:28:21,373
Speaker 4: two boxes to come into the female event based on

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Speaker 4: what their passport says, and that that actually goes back

410
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Speaker 4: to this whole thing about sex self id which we

411
00:28:29,893 --> 00:28:33,013
Speaker 4: have now in New Zealand where you don't have, you

412
00:28:33,013 --> 00:28:35,893
Speaker 4: can just apply for it and you don't have to.

413
00:28:35,893 --> 00:28:38,853
Speaker 2: Have any yourself self declared.

414
00:28:39,213 --> 00:28:42,653
Speaker 4: Yes, that's right, So you should know that that's on

415
00:28:42,693 --> 00:28:47,333
Speaker 4: your on your now, on your certificate. There's no going

416
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Speaker 4: back to see what you actually your sex as it

417
00:28:51,573 --> 00:28:55,293
Speaker 4: was observed at birth and recorded I should say recorded

418
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Speaker 4: at the birth.

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Speaker 3: That's not there anymore.

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Speaker 2: It's just do you think that this this is like

421
00:29:01,253 --> 00:29:04,253
Speaker 2: some of the other things over the years, that this

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Speaker 2: is a trend that will eventually be stymied.

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Speaker 4: I think that what happened in the boxing was a

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Speaker 4: wake up call because there couldn't be a more graphic.

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Speaker 3: Exhibition of the unfairness. And it's not just unfairness.

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Speaker 4: Those women were put at who were competing, were put

427
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Speaker 4: in danger and I'm not exaggerating to that because there

428
00:29:34,133 --> 00:29:36,893
Speaker 4: was a Spanish camp that was held just before the

429
00:29:36,933 --> 00:29:41,733
Speaker 4: Olympics and the women who were sparring with Khalif were

430
00:29:41,773 --> 00:29:45,093
Speaker 4: being so hurt that they had to put him with

431
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Speaker 4: one of their top male boxes in Spain to do

432
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Speaker 4: his sparring.

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Speaker 2: Well, now we get into to an area that might

434
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Speaker 2: cause a bit of friction between us, is there, as

435
00:30:00,293 --> 00:30:05,653
Speaker 2: I saw in an article recently, is there an argument

436
00:30:05,853 --> 00:30:10,293
Speaker 2: that feminism over the years has contributed to this particular

437
00:30:10,933 --> 00:30:12,693
Speaker 2: place that we now find ourselves in.

438
00:30:14,333 --> 00:30:16,693
Speaker 4: A lot of the people who are within the Women's

439
00:30:16,733 --> 00:30:23,053
Speaker 4: Rights Party are feminists from the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies,

440
00:30:23,973 --> 00:30:32,253
Speaker 4: and nineteen eighties, and so we clearly saw that sex

441
00:30:32,573 --> 00:30:38,573
Speaker 4: was biological, but we also recognized that there are sex

442
00:30:38,613 --> 00:30:43,613
Speaker 4: stereotypes that actually were not good for women.

443
00:30:44,213 --> 00:30:45,413
Speaker 3: They held women back.

444
00:30:45,453 --> 00:30:48,413
Speaker 4: Some people would describe it as a prison, and so

445
00:30:48,533 --> 00:30:52,013
Speaker 4: we did actually fight against sex stereotypes.

446
00:30:52,093 --> 00:30:54,053
Speaker 3: So we tried to bring up our boys.

447
00:30:54,813 --> 00:30:58,013
Speaker 4: To if they wanted to play with dolls, well, cater pie,

448
00:30:58,013 --> 00:31:01,253
Speaker 4: that's okay. If our girls wanted to climb trees and

449
00:31:01,293 --> 00:31:02,893
Speaker 4: stuff like that, that was okay.

450
00:31:02,973 --> 00:31:04,133
Speaker 3: We allowed all.

451
00:31:04,053 --> 00:31:09,413
Speaker 4: That generation, and we are a large part of the

452
00:31:09,893 --> 00:31:15,533
Speaker 4: women today who what you would call gender critical. But

453
00:31:15,653 --> 00:31:23,573
Speaker 4: what's happened with this latest trend is completely regressive in

454
00:31:23,693 --> 00:31:28,853
Speaker 4: terms of feminism as I understand it. It hyper sexualizes

455
00:31:29,093 --> 00:31:30,373
Speaker 4: sex stereotypes.

456
00:31:31,173 --> 00:31:34,573
Speaker 3: IBE. I heard that there was a.

457
00:31:34,253 --> 00:31:39,733
Speaker 4: Trans woman at an event that was women I can't

458
00:31:39,773 --> 00:31:43,893
Speaker 4: remember whether psychotherapist or what, and he was the only

459
00:31:43,973 --> 00:31:47,293
Speaker 4: one in a dress in the entire room. You know,

460
00:31:47,493 --> 00:31:52,813
Speaker 4: my generation of feminists, we're the ones who broke the

461
00:31:53,133 --> 00:31:55,933
Speaker 4: sex stereotypes that you had to wear dresses to go

462
00:31:55,973 --> 00:31:56,373
Speaker 4: to work.

463
00:31:56,413 --> 00:32:00,613
Speaker 3: For example, most of us wear trousers pants.

464
00:32:00,173 --> 00:32:04,053
Speaker 4: And Helen Clark wore a pants suit to meet the Queen,

465
00:32:04,213 --> 00:32:07,173
Speaker 4: and at the time that was thought to be horrific,

466
00:32:07,973 --> 00:32:12,813
Speaker 4: but now it's normal. If I watch the Democratic National

467
00:32:12,813 --> 00:32:16,813
Speaker 4: Convention speeches the other night and all the women were

468
00:32:16,853 --> 00:32:22,693
Speaker 4: wearing pensuites. Oh, maybe maybe Michelle Obama had a dress on,

469
00:32:23,373 --> 00:32:27,693
Speaker 4: but you know, we broke down these sex stereotypes. Now,

470
00:32:27,933 --> 00:32:30,373
Speaker 4: if a boy wants to play with dolls or likes

471
00:32:30,413 --> 00:32:34,333
Speaker 4: to wear pink when he's three years old, we say, oh,

472
00:32:34,493 --> 00:32:37,653
Speaker 4: he's born in the wrong body. He must be actually

473
00:32:37,733 --> 00:32:41,773
Speaker 4: a girl, which is nonsense. And then we overlay that

474
00:32:41,893 --> 00:32:47,333
Speaker 4: with the impact of social media, and particularly girls are

475
00:32:47,333 --> 00:32:52,773
Speaker 4: susceptible to that because the other ones watching TikTok, which

476
00:32:53,813 --> 00:33:01,853
Speaker 4: glorifies removing your breasts, and women girls rather binding their

477
00:33:01,893 --> 00:33:05,533
Speaker 4: breasts and that sort of things. So that's nothing to

478
00:33:05,613 --> 00:33:08,333
Speaker 4: do with the feminism that I understand.

479
00:33:08,373 --> 00:33:14,373
Speaker 2: Standard is it is it that feminism, Well, feminism the

480
00:33:14,373 --> 00:33:16,533
Speaker 2: definition of it has arguably changed.

481
00:33:18,853 --> 00:33:21,653
Speaker 4: I don't think it is about feminism. I think that

482
00:33:21,693 --> 00:33:26,653
Speaker 4: it's about during the In the period between the nineteen

483
00:33:26,693 --> 00:33:30,013
Speaker 4: eighties and today, there was a development of what's called

484
00:33:30,053 --> 00:33:34,013
Speaker 4: critical race theory and an association with that queer theory.

485
00:33:34,773 --> 00:33:40,733
Speaker 4: Women's studies and universities got replaced by so called gender studies,

486
00:33:41,373 --> 00:33:47,213
Speaker 4: and the promotion of those theories has actually captured a

487
00:33:47,333 --> 00:33:51,213
Speaker 4: whole generation of those who have been through university, and

488
00:33:51,253 --> 00:33:55,373
Speaker 4: they're the ones you see at Albert Park and they

489
00:33:55,373 --> 00:33:57,933
Speaker 4: are completely captured by It's got nothing to do with

490
00:33:58,013 --> 00:34:00,413
Speaker 4: feminism as I understand it.

491
00:34:00,733 --> 00:34:04,373
Speaker 2: And you'll get no argument from me. I want to

492
00:34:04,373 --> 00:34:09,653
Speaker 2: go back to this case in Australia. You say when

493
00:34:09,693 --> 00:34:12,253
Speaker 2: you were put out a press release, you said or

494
00:34:12,293 --> 00:34:15,093
Speaker 2: you wrote. A landmark case has been decided by an

495
00:34:15,093 --> 00:34:18,693
Speaker 2: Australian Federal Court judge who ruled that the exclusion of

496
00:34:18,733 --> 00:34:24,533
Speaker 2: a transgender woman from the female only app constituted unlawful

497
00:34:24,613 --> 00:34:31,533
Speaker 2: discrimination due to gender identity. The case illustrates why legislating

498
00:34:31,693 --> 00:34:36,733
Speaker 2: for both self sex id and the inclusion of gender

499
00:34:36,773 --> 00:34:42,813
Speaker 2: identity in sex discrimination legislation erodes boundaries that allow women

500
00:34:42,853 --> 00:34:47,493
Speaker 2: to meet in women only spaces. The Women's Rights Party says,

501
00:34:48,413 --> 00:34:51,973
Speaker 2: reading out a summary of his decision yesterday, Justice Bromich

502
00:34:52,013 --> 00:34:57,133
Speaker 2: said the defendants at Selgrover and her company Giggle for Girls,

503
00:34:57,573 --> 00:35:00,973
Speaker 2: considered sex to mean the sex of a person at birth,

504
00:35:01,373 --> 00:35:04,973
Speaker 2: which the defendant said was unchangeable. The judge said these

505
00:35:05,053 --> 00:35:08,853
Speaker 2: arguments failed because a long history of cases decided courts

506
00:35:08,893 --> 00:35:12,373
Speaker 2: going back over thirty years had established that in its

507
00:35:12,493 --> 00:35:17,333
Speaker 2: ordinary meaning, sex is changeable. Now we're recovering some ground

508
00:35:17,333 --> 00:35:20,533
Speaker 2: that we touched on earlier, but I just want to

509
00:35:20,573 --> 00:35:24,933
Speaker 2: finish with this. Renowned evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins has described

510
00:35:24,973 --> 00:35:29,573
Speaker 2: sex as being pretty damned binary. The judge to me

511
00:35:30,213 --> 00:35:33,133
Speaker 2: is out of line, out of place, and he is

512
00:35:33,613 --> 00:35:36,733
Speaker 2: what we call an activist judge. And I wonder whether

513
00:35:36,773 --> 00:35:38,813
Speaker 2: this case could be overturned.

514
00:35:40,773 --> 00:35:44,813
Speaker 4: Yes, that's the intention is to go to the High

515
00:35:44,893 --> 00:35:49,693
Speaker 4: Court in Australia and it's only at that level that

516
00:35:49,733 --> 00:35:53,853
Speaker 4: the court can recommend that the legislation in the Sex

517
00:35:53,893 --> 00:35:59,013
Speaker 4: Discrimination Act in Australia has changed so that gender doesn't

518
00:35:59,053 --> 00:36:03,013
Speaker 4: trump sex when it comes to cases like this, and

519
00:36:03,053 --> 00:36:06,613
Speaker 4: that sex base rights of women for example too women

520
00:36:06,653 --> 00:36:12,813
Speaker 4: only spaces is PROTECHU did in that legislation and currently

521
00:36:13,013 --> 00:36:18,053
Speaker 4: in New Zealand, the Law Commission is undergoing a review

522
00:36:19,093 --> 00:36:24,133
Speaker 4: of whether there should be more protections for transgender non

523
00:36:24,213 --> 00:36:27,973
Speaker 4: binary people and they have included in this which we

524
00:36:28,053 --> 00:36:32,293
Speaker 4: believe is a distraction, those which they call innate variations

525
00:36:32,333 --> 00:36:36,293
Speaker 4: of sex characteristics that we would know more as differences

526
00:36:36,333 --> 00:36:41,133
Speaker 4: of sex development or intersex. So the two cases really

527
00:36:41,213 --> 00:36:45,213
Speaker 4: do That case really does have an impact on New

528
00:36:45,253 --> 00:36:47,693
Speaker 4: Zealand because we know the Law Commission is looking at

529
00:36:47,733 --> 00:36:51,573
Speaker 4: the outcome of what that judge has found. It was

530
00:36:51,773 --> 00:36:55,933
Speaker 4: it was quite interesting because he could only rule on

531
00:36:56,053 --> 00:37:00,933
Speaker 4: what's in their legislation. Apparently that statement that sex is

532
00:37:01,053 --> 00:37:03,693
Speaker 4: changeable is just such a nonsense, I don't think.

533
00:37:03,733 --> 00:37:06,333
Speaker 2: But he's an idiot and a moron to put to me, yes,

534
00:37:06,413 --> 00:37:08,933
Speaker 2: to put it bluntly, and we have some we have

535
00:37:09,053 --> 00:37:11,533
Speaker 2: some of those in the legal system in this country too.

536
00:37:12,333 --> 00:37:13,213
Speaker 3: Well, that's right.

537
00:37:13,533 --> 00:37:19,573
Speaker 4: In the Wellington Women's Lawyers Association. They just changed their constitution,

538
00:37:19,653 --> 00:37:22,773
Speaker 4: which have been around since the nineteen eighties, to allow

539
00:37:22,933 --> 00:37:25,533
Speaker 4: those who identify as women to be part of the

540
00:37:25,573 --> 00:37:29,453
Speaker 4: Women Lawyers Association of Wellington. So you could just see

541
00:37:29,493 --> 00:37:34,213
Speaker 4: how the legal profession is captured and the judiciary definitely

542
00:37:34,293 --> 00:37:38,413
Speaker 4: looks to be captured in Australia and in fact, yeah,

543
00:37:38,493 --> 00:37:43,333
Speaker 4: so that's that is evident there. Well, it was interesting

544
00:37:43,373 --> 00:37:45,853
Speaker 4: though in that case that he did not find there

545
00:37:45,933 --> 00:37:50,693
Speaker 4: was direct discrimination. So the judge did not find that

546
00:37:50,813 --> 00:37:56,773
Speaker 4: the reason why Tickle was removed from Giggle for Girls

547
00:37:57,373 --> 00:38:02,493
Speaker 4: was because he was transgender. What the judge found that

548
00:38:02,573 --> 00:38:11,453
Speaker 4: it was indirect discrimination because in applying for to go

549
00:38:11,533 --> 00:38:14,533
Speaker 4: on to Giggle versus Giggle, you have to show that

550
00:38:14,573 --> 00:38:19,293
Speaker 4: you have the appearance of cis gender. They call it cisgender.

551
00:38:19,333 --> 00:38:24,853
Speaker 4: We reject that completely of women, and that intention of

552
00:38:24,893 --> 00:38:29,733
Speaker 4: that is to exclude men from the women only platform.

553
00:38:30,053 --> 00:38:36,333
Speaker 4: And the fact that he was a transgender, according to

554
00:38:36,413 --> 00:38:42,293
Speaker 4: this ruling was incorrect because he is according to the judge,

555
00:38:42,293 --> 00:38:45,333
Speaker 4: he is not a man. He is a woman. And

556
00:38:45,493 --> 00:38:47,093
Speaker 4: I don't know if you've seen a photo of him.

557
00:38:48,013 --> 00:38:51,493
Speaker 2: The first thing I saw was the photo and you know.

558
00:38:51,493 --> 00:38:55,973
Speaker 4: That he plays hockey with teenage girls and no, I

559
00:38:56,013 --> 00:38:59,213
Speaker 4: didn't know that. Well, he does, and it's quite common

560
00:38:59,213 --> 00:39:04,853
Speaker 4: in Australia. Now we're not talking about competitive sport at

561
00:39:04,893 --> 00:39:09,413
Speaker 4: the elite level. We're talking about recreational sport. Men identifying

562
00:39:09,453 --> 00:39:15,733
Speaker 4: as women are coming onto girls teams like soccer teams,

563
00:39:16,493 --> 00:39:19,933
Speaker 4: and they just beat them all the time. You know,

564
00:39:20,133 --> 00:39:24,213
Speaker 4: you get like nine goals to nil in the soccer

565
00:39:24,293 --> 00:39:24,893
Speaker 4: when this.

566
00:39:24,853 --> 00:39:27,093
Speaker 2: Particular team, Well, how would you term that.

567
00:39:28,533 --> 00:39:28,933
Speaker 3: Cheating?

568
00:39:29,493 --> 00:39:32,213
Speaker 2: How would you term the desire to do that?

569
00:39:33,853 --> 00:39:34,053
Speaker 1: Oh?

570
00:39:34,173 --> 00:39:38,013
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's that In my view, it's not about winning.

571
00:39:39,333 --> 00:39:40,933
Speaker 4: It's a perversion.

572
00:39:42,373 --> 00:39:44,453
Speaker 2: I couldn't I couldn't agree with you more.

573
00:39:45,453 --> 00:39:48,453
Speaker 4: You know, even if you give even if you provide

574
00:39:48,533 --> 00:39:52,413
Speaker 4: gender neutral toilets as well as the women's toilets, these

575
00:39:52,453 --> 00:39:56,013
Speaker 4: guys who get their rocks off by pretending to be

576
00:39:56,093 --> 00:39:59,653
Speaker 4: women would go into the women's toilets or assert their

577
00:39:59,733 --> 00:40:03,653
Speaker 4: right too. They wouldn't take advantage of a gender neutral toilet.

578
00:40:03,933 --> 00:40:06,533
Speaker 4: It's not about that. But they're actually only a small

579
00:40:06,573 --> 00:40:11,973
Speaker 4: proportion of the community these days because of the explosion

580
00:40:12,133 --> 00:40:16,493
Speaker 4: of these teenage girls who are getting caught up in it.

581
00:40:18,133 --> 00:40:22,413
Speaker 4: And you know, they know from the evidence that of

582
00:40:22,613 --> 00:40:26,653
Speaker 4: studies that have been done that you get classrooms where

583
00:40:26,893 --> 00:40:30,413
Speaker 4: one girl identifies as a boy and next thing you know,

584
00:40:31,493 --> 00:40:34,213
Speaker 4: all her friend group have done the same thing. It's

585
00:40:34,373 --> 00:40:36,653
Speaker 4: just like anorexia, wise or cuttings.

586
00:40:38,413 --> 00:40:39,533
Speaker 2: Once again, I agree with you.

587
00:40:40,333 --> 00:40:44,453
Speaker 4: I want to make it clear that those teenagers have

588
00:40:44,493 --> 00:40:48,413
Speaker 4: been caught up in all this. It's not a perversion

589
00:40:48,573 --> 00:40:53,693
Speaker 4: with them, it's a really you know, it's a really

590
00:40:53,813 --> 00:41:00,973
Speaker 4: serious psychological and medical issue that's going to have profound effects.

591
00:41:02,293 --> 00:41:04,813
Speaker 4: It'll be worse than the unfortunate experiment.

592
00:41:06,013 --> 00:41:07,973
Speaker 2: And how do you how do you think is the

593
00:41:07,973 --> 00:41:08,973
Speaker 2: best way to deal with it?

594
00:41:10,933 --> 00:41:13,413
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, we have to make sure that

595
00:41:13,453 --> 00:41:16,253
Speaker 4: there's no resources in our schools that are available from

596
00:41:16,333 --> 00:41:22,053
Speaker 4: kindergarten upwards that tell children that their sex can be changed.

597
00:41:22,813 --> 00:41:27,093
Speaker 4: I mean, secular schools should be teaching scientific based evidence

598
00:41:28,373 --> 00:41:29,733
Speaker 4: and they haven't been.

599
00:41:30,893 --> 00:41:33,173
Speaker 2: How did you spend so long in the Labor Party,

600
00:41:33,173 --> 00:41:34,213
Speaker 2: That's what I don't get.

601
00:41:35,493 --> 00:41:39,493
Speaker 4: I started, I was the Alliance leader at one stage,

602
00:41:39,533 --> 00:41:41,213
Speaker 4: and I've been in the Alliance.

603
00:41:40,773 --> 00:41:41,893
Speaker 3: For quite a few years.

604
00:41:42,573 --> 00:41:44,453
Speaker 4: But I went to work for the Service and Food

605
00:41:44,493 --> 00:41:49,773
Speaker 4: Workers Union, which is a Labor affiliated union, and I

606
00:41:49,813 --> 00:41:54,453
Speaker 4: became the Northern Regional Secretary of the Service of Food

607
00:41:54,453 --> 00:41:57,693
Speaker 4: Workers Union, and so that's when I went to the

608
00:41:57,813 --> 00:42:01,373
Speaker 4: Labor Party. And so I was in the Labor Party

609
00:42:01,373 --> 00:42:04,173
Speaker 4: and on their council for several.

610
00:42:03,973 --> 00:42:07,213
Speaker 3: Years and very active in South Auckland where I live.

611
00:42:09,053 --> 00:42:14,333
Speaker 2: I want to conclude, though, with education became I became

612
00:42:14,373 --> 00:42:21,253
Speaker 2: aware recently of sex education that's taking taking place in

613
00:42:21,253 --> 00:42:27,253
Speaker 2: private schools, one in particular, where fourteen year olds are

614
00:42:27,333 --> 00:42:31,493
Speaker 2: being taught to question There, they're being taught to question

615
00:42:32,453 --> 00:42:37,653
Speaker 2: their sexual status. How do you know, for instance, that

616
00:42:37,693 --> 00:42:41,773
Speaker 2: you're not in the wrong body? And I've seen evidence

617
00:42:41,813 --> 00:42:46,413
Speaker 2: of it, and I can't believe it is It is

618
00:42:46,453 --> 00:42:50,133
Speaker 2: something that you wouldn't you would not expect to have

619
00:42:50,213 --> 00:42:54,173
Speaker 2: your child put through. That's right with the money that

620
00:42:54,213 --> 00:42:56,933
Speaker 2: you're paying that school to wear educate your kid.

621
00:42:57,893 --> 00:42:59,733
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's one of the points that we're making in

622
00:42:59,773 --> 00:43:02,413
Speaker 4: our submission to the Law Commission is where are the parents'

623
00:43:02,453 --> 00:43:05,213
Speaker 4: rights in this? So you've seen your child to a

624
00:43:05,253 --> 00:43:09,093
Speaker 4: single sex school and then the single sex school admits

625
00:43:09,573 --> 00:43:12,893
Speaker 4: children of the opposite sex who claim that they are

626
00:43:14,213 --> 00:43:17,853
Speaker 4: part of that sex, and so where's the parents'.

627
00:43:17,493 --> 00:43:18,053
Speaker 3: Rights in this?

628
00:43:18,893 --> 00:43:24,293
Speaker 4: And you know, what they're being taught is just scientifically incorrect.

629
00:43:25,013 --> 00:43:27,853
Speaker 4: But the other thing that's worrying about it is that

630
00:43:28,333 --> 00:43:34,453
Speaker 4: you talk about the questioning. I was with a granddaughter

631
00:43:35,133 --> 00:43:38,973
Speaker 4: of someone else. No, I haven't got a granddaughter in

632
00:43:39,013 --> 00:43:41,933
Speaker 4: this age group, but she was in her final year

633
00:43:41,973 --> 00:43:44,493
Speaker 4: at high school. She's now in her first year at UNI,

634
00:43:45,413 --> 00:43:48,373
Speaker 4: and she was saying, you can't question this stuff.

635
00:43:48,453 --> 00:43:49,733
Speaker 3: You're not allowed to question it.

636
00:43:51,093 --> 00:43:54,053
Speaker 4: About a week later, we were at a funeral of

637
00:43:54,293 --> 00:44:00,413
Speaker 4: a nephew of Eddieway and his two sisters were telling

638
00:44:00,453 --> 00:44:04,333
Speaker 4: somebody that at their school, which is in total a

639
00:44:04,373 --> 00:44:07,213
Speaker 4: long way from the other school, I'm talking about no

640
00:44:07,253 --> 00:44:10,613
Speaker 4: connection between these kids. And the two girls were saying,

641
00:44:10,733 --> 00:44:14,733
Speaker 4: it's just ridiculous. We have to use our pronouns as

642
00:44:14,773 --> 00:44:18,973
Speaker 4: if it's obvious. I'm a girl, and she said the

643
00:44:19,053 --> 00:44:23,413
Speaker 4: teachers are encouraging it. And the two girls also said,

644
00:44:24,013 --> 00:44:27,533
Speaker 4: we can't question it. You're not allowed to question it. Now,

645
00:44:27,573 --> 00:44:31,253
Speaker 4: when you talked earlier about feminism, one of the big

646
00:44:31,293 --> 00:44:33,293
Speaker 4: things that I was brought up with.

647
00:44:33,733 --> 00:44:35,253
Speaker 3: Was you are allowed to question.

648
00:44:36,013 --> 00:44:38,933
Speaker 4: As a teenager in the Anglican Church, when I went

649
00:44:38,973 --> 00:44:47,093
Speaker 4: through confirmation, I said to the priest, do you really

650
00:44:47,133 --> 00:44:53,213
Speaker 4: believe that Mary was a virgin? And that priest sort

651
00:44:53,253 --> 00:44:56,653
Speaker 4: of accepted what I was saying and he gave me

652
00:44:56,693 --> 00:45:02,253
Speaker 4: an answer. Can't remember what the answer was, but obviously

653
00:45:02,333 --> 00:45:05,813
Speaker 4: didn't have much effect on me. But the point is

654
00:45:05,973 --> 00:45:11,493
Speaker 4: that we were allowed to question, and that's that's really worrying.

655
00:45:11,533 --> 00:45:14,453
Speaker 4: To me that a generation of girls who do not

656
00:45:14,613 --> 00:45:18,413
Speaker 4: go along with this and boys have to keep their

657
00:45:18,453 --> 00:45:19,013
Speaker 4: mouth shut.

658
00:45:19,173 --> 00:45:21,573
Speaker 2: I think it's more than a generation now, it's stretching

659
00:45:21,573 --> 00:45:23,573
Speaker 2: into at least the second that's my opinion.

660
00:45:23,613 --> 00:45:27,653
Speaker 3: Yes, I have sorry, no, you go.

661
00:45:28,733 --> 00:45:32,413
Speaker 4: I have two granddaughters, one who's ten months old and

662
00:45:32,413 --> 00:45:38,533
Speaker 4: one who started school today, and honestly, I just do

663
00:45:38,693 --> 00:45:42,293
Speaker 4: this because I don't want them to be taught things

664
00:45:42,333 --> 00:45:45,493
Speaker 4: that are completely wrong and that could send them down

665
00:45:45,573 --> 00:45:50,613
Speaker 4: a pathway that is irreversible and cause huge damage to them.

666
00:45:50,693 --> 00:45:52,813
Speaker 4: And I think so I'm hoping by the time they

667
00:45:52,853 --> 00:45:54,973
Speaker 4: get to high school this is all gone.

668
00:45:56,293 --> 00:46:00,893
Speaker 2: I think it's unlikely, but we've got an education minister now,

669
00:46:01,053 --> 00:46:05,253
Speaker 2: who I would suggest it probably probably gives it the

670
00:46:05,293 --> 00:46:08,253
Speaker 2: best shot of being being dealt with. But I have

671
00:46:08,893 --> 00:46:11,133
Speaker 2: I have a question for you, based on what you

672
00:46:11,293 --> 00:46:15,653
Speaker 2: just said when you were when you were talking to

673
00:46:15,733 --> 00:46:18,973
Speaker 2: the priest, and do you believe that Mary was a virgin?

674
00:46:19,773 --> 00:46:24,253
Speaker 2: There's no necessity here to believe in God or anything else.

675
00:46:25,013 --> 00:46:28,333
Speaker 2: This is an argument that stands on its own. The

676
00:46:28,413 --> 00:46:32,773
Speaker 2: answer to your question was, if God can create the

677
00:46:32,813 --> 00:46:36,453
Speaker 2: world and the universe, then Mary can be a virgin.

678
00:46:37,013 --> 00:46:42,853
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a religious belief and transgenderism is also a

679
00:46:42,973 --> 00:46:44,133
Speaker 4: belief system.

680
00:46:44,813 --> 00:46:47,573
Speaker 3: I would suggest No.

681
00:46:47,653 --> 00:46:50,573
Speaker 2: The point, the point I'm making though, is if God,

682
00:46:52,213 --> 00:46:53,973
Speaker 2: or if you want, if there is a God and

683
00:46:54,013 --> 00:47:01,093
Speaker 2: he created the world, then why couldn't he impregnate artificially Mary?

684
00:47:01,973 --> 00:47:03,973
Speaker 4: Well, you're going to get me into trouble with lots

685
00:47:03,973 --> 00:47:07,173
Speaker 4: of people in our party who are Christians, So I

686
00:47:07,293 --> 00:47:09,133
Speaker 4: want to stay away from that.

687
00:47:09,213 --> 00:47:13,413
Speaker 3: Is she? But you're assuming God was he?

688
00:47:14,653 --> 00:47:20,093
Speaker 4: But of course if if there was, you know, the

689
00:47:20,173 --> 00:47:25,413
Speaker 4: ability to impregnate Mary, then must have had why chromosome?

690
00:47:27,013 --> 00:47:28,653
Speaker 2: So where does that? Where does that?

691
00:47:28,893 --> 00:47:31,413
Speaker 3: I don't know. I don't know that that leads us anyway.

692
00:47:31,573 --> 00:47:35,933
Speaker 4: But there are people suggesting that the idea that Adam

693
00:47:36,013 --> 00:47:39,773
Speaker 4: came before Eve is not necessarily correct because it's you know,

694
00:47:40,893 --> 00:47:44,093
Speaker 4: Adam had to be born of a woman. Every every

695
00:47:44,933 --> 00:47:47,733
Speaker 4: person in the history of mankind has been born of

696
00:47:47,773 --> 00:47:48,173
Speaker 4: a woman.

697
00:47:49,573 --> 00:47:52,453
Speaker 3: So who came first? There's my feminism coming through.

698
00:47:52,693 --> 00:47:57,933
Speaker 2: Well, the biblical description of the creation of Adam and

699
00:47:57,973 --> 00:48:01,453
Speaker 2: Eve is therefore everyone to read.

700
00:48:02,013 --> 00:48:06,213
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there are other cultural explanations, aren't they.

701
00:48:07,733 --> 00:48:08,293
Speaker 2: I don't know.

702
00:48:10,253 --> 00:48:10,653
Speaker 3: Anyway.

703
00:48:10,773 --> 00:48:13,493
Speaker 2: All right, listen, it's it's been good talking to you,

704
00:48:13,933 --> 00:48:17,653
Speaker 2: and I congratulate you on your outspokenness. And I haven't

705
00:48:17,653 --> 00:48:21,373
Speaker 2: said that to somebody from the left for a long time,

706
00:48:21,413 --> 00:48:25,813
Speaker 2: but you do exist, and like I say, I congratulate you,

707
00:48:26,453 --> 00:48:30,973
Speaker 2: and more power to your voice and your arguments.

708
00:48:31,853 --> 00:48:33,733
Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you very much.

709
00:48:39,893 --> 00:48:42,653
Speaker 2: There are essential fat nutrients that we need in our

710
00:48:42,693 --> 00:48:46,093
Speaker 2: diet as the body can't manufacture them. These are Omega

711
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Speaker 2: three and Amiga six fatty acids. Equisine is a combination

712
00:48:50,333 --> 00:48:53,933
Speaker 2: of fish oil and virgin evening primrose oil, a formula

713
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714
00:48:57,093 --> 00:49:00,893
Speaker 2: six fatty acids in their naturally existing ratios. The Omiga

715
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Speaker 2: six from evening primrose oil assists the Omega three fish

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Speaker 2: oil to be more effective. Equisine is a high quality

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Speaker 2: fish oil supplement enriched with evening primrose oil that works

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719
00:49:15,653 --> 00:49:20,253
Speaker 2: sardines Anchovisa magrol provide essential Amiga three fatty acids in

720
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Speaker 2: their purest form without any internal organs or toxins. Every

721
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722
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723
00:49:30,933 --> 00:49:36,013
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724
00:49:36,053 --> 00:49:39,453
Speaker 2: can support mood balance and mental clarity and focus in

725
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726
00:49:43,013 --> 00:49:46,453
Speaker 2: brain health and healthy eyes as we get older. Equasin

727
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Speaker 2: is a premium high grade fish and evening primrose oil

728
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Speaker 2: to be taken in addition to a healthy diet and

729
00:49:53,053 --> 00:49:56,653
Speaker 2: is only available from pharmacies and health stores. Always read

730
00:49:56,693 --> 00:50:00,253
Speaker 2: the label and users directed, and if symptoms persist, seeing

731
00:50:00,253 --> 00:50:17,813
Speaker 2: your health care professional. Farmer Broker Auckland Laton Smith Beynum

732
00:50:17,853 --> 00:50:21,653
Speaker 2: ben Tabalu is a Senior Fellow with the FDD that

733
00:50:21,773 --> 00:50:26,813
Speaker 2: is the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, where he focuses

734
00:50:26,853 --> 00:50:31,093
Speaker 2: on Iranian security and political issues now. He previously served

735
00:50:31,133 --> 00:50:34,813
Speaker 2: as a research Fellow and Senior Iran Analyst at FDD.

736
00:50:35,573 --> 00:50:39,573
Speaker 2: Prior to his time at that organization, he worked on

737
00:50:39,893 --> 00:50:43,973
Speaker 2: non proliferation issues at an arms control think tank in Washington.

738
00:50:44,773 --> 00:50:49,853
Speaker 2: Leveraging his subject matter expertise and native Pazi skills, Benim

739
00:50:49,973 --> 00:50:54,333
Speaker 2: has closely tracked a wide range of Iran related topics,

740
00:50:54,373 --> 00:50:58,973
Speaker 2: including nuclear non proliferation, ballistic missile sanctions, and Islamic Revolutionary

741
00:50:58,973 --> 00:51:01,573
Speaker 2: Guard Corps and the list goes on and on. He's

742
00:51:01,613 --> 00:51:05,373
Speaker 2: been a very busy man. It is exactly five years

743
00:51:05,413 --> 00:51:09,213
Speaker 2: since we interviewed last time, and I have to say,

744
00:51:09,333 --> 00:51:12,053
Speaker 2: welcome back to the podcast. It's great to have your company.

745
00:51:11,933 --> 00:51:13,493
Speaker 5: It's an honor to be back with you, and thanks

746
00:51:13,533 --> 00:51:14,293
Speaker 5: for having me again.

747
00:51:14,573 --> 00:51:17,973
Speaker 2: Five years. So what can happen? What has changed in

748
00:51:18,013 --> 00:51:20,173
Speaker 2: the five years since we last spoke.

749
00:51:20,813 --> 00:51:24,813
Speaker 6: Oh, my goodness, so many structural and political changes.

750
00:51:25,733 --> 00:51:27,013
Speaker 5: One wonders where to start.

751
00:51:27,733 --> 00:51:31,413
Speaker 6: But in Washington, where I live and work, there has

752
00:51:31,453 --> 00:51:34,973
Speaker 6: been a different administration. The Biden administration entered office in

753
00:51:35,013 --> 00:51:39,813
Speaker 6: twenty twenty one, reversing at that time the Trump administration's

754
00:51:39,893 --> 00:51:44,093
Speaker 6: maximum pressure policy towards the Islamic Republic of Iran, and

755
00:51:44,493 --> 00:51:46,773
Speaker 6: there was an attempt for the first two years of

756
00:51:46,813 --> 00:51:51,653
Speaker 6: the Biden administration to tempt Tehran with nuclear diplomacy back

757
00:51:51,653 --> 00:51:56,773
Speaker 6: into compliance with the twenty fifteen nuclear deal that has failed,

758
00:51:57,093 --> 00:52:00,733
Speaker 6: as has attempts to win over the Ietolas through sanctions,

759
00:52:00,773 --> 00:52:05,933
Speaker 6: relief and waivers and financial application. The regime's nuclear program

760
00:52:05,973 --> 00:52:08,653
Speaker 6: is escalating far beyond where it was both in twenty

761
00:52:08,733 --> 00:52:11,813
Speaker 6: nineteen as well as to when Biden entered office in

762
00:52:11,813 --> 00:52:16,773
Speaker 6: twenty twenty one. On the regional front. Twenty nineteen did

763
00:52:16,813 --> 00:52:21,173
Speaker 6: not see a major Israel gazo or Israel proxy of

764
00:52:21,213 --> 00:52:24,373
Speaker 6: Iran war, but moving into twenty twenty one, there was

765
00:52:24,413 --> 00:52:27,973
Speaker 6: an eleven day war in May, and then a brief

766
00:52:28,093 --> 00:52:32,333
Speaker 6: uptick in violence in twenty twenty two, and then starting

767
00:52:32,333 --> 00:52:36,293
Speaker 6: on October eight, twenty twenty three, following the October seventh

768
00:52:36,653 --> 00:52:40,693
Speaker 6: terrorist attack by Hamas against Israel, Iran back proxies began

769
00:52:40,773 --> 00:52:43,373
Speaker 6: to fire on Israel, creating the multi front ring of

770
00:52:43,413 --> 00:52:46,173
Speaker 6: fire that we see today has below to the north

771
00:52:46,213 --> 00:52:51,133
Speaker 6: starting on October eighth, the Iran Bakshia militias against US

772
00:52:51,173 --> 00:52:54,333
Speaker 6: forces starting October seventeenth, and then the Whosi's in Yemen

773
00:52:54,413 --> 00:52:59,093
Speaker 6: starting October nineteenth, and then just lastly, or perhaps second

774
00:52:59,093 --> 00:53:02,573
Speaker 6: to last, I should say, within Iran, in November of

775
00:53:02,613 --> 00:53:06,573
Speaker 6: the year that we spoke twenty nineteen, you had at

776
00:53:06,613 --> 00:53:10,133
Speaker 6: that time the largest ever nation wide protests against the regime,

777
00:53:10,733 --> 00:53:13,773
Speaker 6: where the regime turned off the Internet nationally and under

778
00:53:13,773 --> 00:53:17,773
Speaker 6: the six or seven day cover of internet darkness used

779
00:53:17,773 --> 00:53:21,053
Speaker 6: weapons of war against his own population, killing over one thousand,

780
00:53:21,133 --> 00:53:25,973
Speaker 6: five hundred people. Unfortunately, that brutality has been matched and

781
00:53:26,053 --> 00:53:29,053
Speaker 6: meant by the regime in a different iteration of street

782
00:53:29,093 --> 00:53:34,413
Speaker 6: protests that we saw in twenty twenty two twenty twenty three,

783
00:53:34,493 --> 00:53:38,253
Speaker 6: starting in September, known famously as the Woman Life Freedom movement,

784
00:53:38,613 --> 00:53:41,813
Speaker 6: and as this state continued to radicalize in Iran, the

785
00:53:41,853 --> 00:53:45,093
Speaker 6: society continued to push back and at that time over

786
00:53:45,133 --> 00:53:49,133
Speaker 6: one hundred and fifty different cities, towns, and villages protested

787
00:53:49,453 --> 00:53:50,693
Speaker 6: against the clerical regime.

788
00:53:51,493 --> 00:53:53,373
Speaker 2: You know, this whole thing reminds me of a little

789
00:53:53,413 --> 00:53:58,613
Speaker 2: it just did of the Russian dolls. Were you unscrewed

790
00:53:58,613 --> 00:54:02,893
Speaker 2: the hit or whatever becomes another one? It just keeps unfolding.

791
00:54:04,613 --> 00:54:05,573
Speaker 5: Ah Matryoshki.

792
00:54:05,733 --> 00:54:09,493
Speaker 6: The only problem is, I think, should nesting dolls yet

793
00:54:09,533 --> 00:54:13,053
Speaker 6: smaller as they open up? These crises seem to get

794
00:54:13,133 --> 00:54:15,893
Speaker 6: larger and spiral out of control.

795
00:54:15,853 --> 00:54:19,613
Speaker 2: So it's in reverse. The moves by the Biden administration.

796
00:54:20,053 --> 00:54:23,293
Speaker 2: Are they the responsibility of Biden himself. I don't know

797
00:54:23,333 --> 00:54:26,213
Speaker 2: that buck stops with the president, but are they his

798
00:54:26,653 --> 00:54:30,973
Speaker 2: actions or are they ones that have been simply imposed

799
00:54:31,293 --> 00:54:33,573
Speaker 2: by advisers. What's your thought?

800
00:54:34,373 --> 00:54:37,733
Speaker 6: It's an excellent question, because I need no disrespect to

801
00:54:37,773 --> 00:54:41,213
Speaker 6: the current sitting president of the United States, who, after

802
00:54:41,293 --> 00:54:47,173
Speaker 6: a rather challenging, we can say debate performance pulled a

803
00:54:47,253 --> 00:54:51,133
Speaker 6: Lyndon Johnson and said he would not run again for

804
00:54:51,173 --> 00:54:57,173
Speaker 6: his party's nomination for the presidency, largely due to health considerations.

805
00:54:57,933 --> 00:54:59,813
Speaker 5: But even prior to this statement.

806
00:54:59,453 --> 00:55:03,093
Speaker 6: Which was just a few weeks ago, there were concerns

807
00:55:03,093 --> 00:55:06,853
Speaker 6: as to who was running things in Washington and who

808
00:55:06,973 --> 00:55:10,013
Speaker 6: was up who was down, largely but not exclusively, the

809
00:55:10,133 --> 00:55:14,213
Speaker 6: national security elite. With the exception of how Washington has

810
00:55:14,253 --> 00:55:19,013
Speaker 6: threatened the political needle on the Israel Hamas war, has

811
00:55:19,293 --> 00:55:24,093
Speaker 6: been in lockstep with broader Democratic Party dogma, at least

812
00:55:24,093 --> 00:55:26,453
Speaker 6: with respect to the big picture issues in the region.

813
00:55:26,973 --> 00:55:30,373
Speaker 6: For example, many people in the Biden administration, not just

814
00:55:30,453 --> 00:55:34,893
Speaker 6: President Biden, did not use the words Abraham Accords when

815
00:55:34,933 --> 00:55:38,373
Speaker 6: talking about the wave of normalization agreements between the Israelis

816
00:55:38,413 --> 00:55:40,973
Speaker 6: and the Arabs that we saw under President Trump. And

817
00:55:41,053 --> 00:55:44,493
Speaker 6: indeed you saw President Biden lead the charge against calling

818
00:55:44,773 --> 00:55:49,333
Speaker 6: Saudi Arabia a pariah state, and the Democratic Party, both

819
00:55:49,333 --> 00:55:55,053
Speaker 6: within his administration and within Congress, followed with castication of

820
00:55:55,053 --> 00:55:58,093
Speaker 6: Saudi Arabia, and only recently has tried to reverse course

821
00:55:58,133 --> 00:56:02,693
Speaker 6: and build bridges with the Saudis, both for strategic reasons

822
00:56:02,693 --> 00:56:06,893
Speaker 6: in the region, as well as for attempts to offset

823
00:56:07,293 --> 00:56:11,333
Speaker 6: the dip Russian crude exports, and then most importantly to

824
00:56:11,333 --> 00:56:15,133
Speaker 6: try to get normalization back on track in the heart

825
00:56:15,133 --> 00:56:17,973
Speaker 6: of the Middle East. So that's largely been Biden setting

826
00:56:17,973 --> 00:56:20,653
Speaker 6: the agenda and the elite following. But you are certainly

827
00:56:20,733 --> 00:56:22,773
Speaker 6: right to point out that there is a zeitgeist. And

828
00:56:22,853 --> 00:56:27,253
Speaker 6: this zeitgeist, much like the peace processing industry, has a

829
00:56:27,333 --> 00:56:30,653
Speaker 6: bureaucratic inertia of its own, and with respect to Tehran,

830
00:56:30,773 --> 00:56:33,293
Speaker 6: they believe that less is more, that you can pay

831
00:56:33,333 --> 00:56:35,973
Speaker 6: to play, that you can pay to delay, and that

832
00:56:36,053 --> 00:56:38,333
Speaker 6: it was a cardinal sin of the Trump administration to

833
00:56:38,413 --> 00:56:41,053
Speaker 6: leave the Iron Nuclear Deal. So whether you look at

834
00:56:41,093 --> 00:56:44,973
Speaker 6: big or small, public or privates elected or appointed, many

835
00:56:44,973 --> 00:56:49,093
Speaker 6: of these officials harbor that same zeitgeist, and I believe

836
00:56:49,133 --> 00:56:52,093
Speaker 6: are responsible for the current impast that we face today.

837
00:56:52,173 --> 00:56:55,933
Speaker 2: If there is a change of administration in November, well

838
00:56:55,973 --> 00:56:59,453
Speaker 2: in January, would what you've just described, how much would

839
00:56:59,493 --> 00:57:04,333
Speaker 2: that affect the rearrangement of things under the new administration.

840
00:57:05,973 --> 00:57:09,493
Speaker 6: Well, certainly if it is a change to a Republican

841
00:57:09,533 --> 00:57:12,653
Speaker 6: administration and President Trump comes back at the helm, at

842
00:57:12,733 --> 00:57:15,133
Speaker 6: least with respect to the big picture issues, you're likely

843
00:57:15,173 --> 00:57:17,893
Speaker 6: to see some major changes. I think with respect to

844
00:57:17,933 --> 00:57:20,533
Speaker 6: the Iran issue, you're likely to see one hundred and

845
00:57:20,613 --> 00:57:25,093
Speaker 6: eighty degree change, a resumption of what again the former

846
00:57:25,133 --> 00:57:29,533
Speaker 6: administration called maximum pressure sanctions. And while yes, these were

847
00:57:29,693 --> 00:57:34,213
Speaker 6: unilateral and punitive economic sanctions, in terms of their macroeconomic

848
00:57:34,293 --> 00:57:39,173
Speaker 6: impact on Tehran's theocrats, they far outpaced even a decade

849
00:57:39,173 --> 00:57:43,773
Speaker 6: of multilateral sanctions when looking at inflation value of the

850
00:57:43,813 --> 00:57:47,973
Speaker 6: real relative to the dollar, oil exports, and the general

851
00:57:48,013 --> 00:57:51,013
Speaker 6: health and well being of the Iranian economy. So on

852
00:57:51,053 --> 00:57:55,053
Speaker 6: that issue you can expect black and white, major non

853
00:57:55,293 --> 00:57:56,453
Speaker 6: zero sum changes.

854
00:57:56,613 --> 00:58:01,453
Speaker 2: Question quick question, yes, in your opinion, is that desirable?

855
00:58:02,813 --> 00:58:05,773
Speaker 6: I think not only is it desirable, it's a strategic

856
00:58:05,893 --> 00:58:10,493
Speaker 6: imperative and moral necessity. To disconnect the dots, particularly in

857
00:58:10,533 --> 00:58:13,093
Speaker 6: the post October seven Middle East, from the patron or

858
00:58:13,133 --> 00:58:17,653
Speaker 6: the arsonist of the fires of the region is political

859
00:58:17,653 --> 00:58:21,613
Speaker 6: malpactress and strategic suicide. To think that the threat only

860
00:58:21,653 --> 00:58:25,453
Speaker 6: exists because of the Huthis and Yemen and their localized concerns,

861
00:58:25,653 --> 00:58:30,093
Speaker 6: and Hezbollah in Beiruts in Lebanon and their localized concerns

862
00:58:30,933 --> 00:58:32,453
Speaker 6: is to miss the forest for the trees.

863
00:58:32,933 --> 00:58:36,573
Speaker 2: So where does John Kerry sit now in the book

864
00:58:36,613 --> 00:58:38,053
Speaker 2: of fame or infamy?

865
00:58:39,733 --> 00:58:43,293
Speaker 6: I think, with immense respect, there are some areas where

866
00:58:43,373 --> 00:58:47,093
Speaker 6: the legacy will be waning politically as well as from

867
00:58:47,093 --> 00:58:51,053
Speaker 6: a policy perspective. Politically, with respect to some of his

868
00:58:51,133 --> 00:58:54,773
Speaker 6: aim achievements, the Iron Nuclear Deal, the twenty fifteen deal

869
00:58:54,813 --> 00:58:56,013
Speaker 6: that he helped negotiate, was.

870
00:58:55,973 --> 00:58:57,093
Speaker 5: Not all that it was billed to be.

871
00:58:57,693 --> 00:59:00,533
Speaker 6: I think some of his rhetoric and views on the

872
00:59:00,613 --> 00:59:04,653
Speaker 6: US Saudi relationship now are seen as counterproductive. And even

873
00:59:04,693 --> 00:59:06,813
Speaker 6: when you look at some of his performance with respect

874
00:59:06,813 --> 00:59:10,213
Speaker 6: to the environment and the climate crist during the early

875
00:59:10,253 --> 00:59:13,693
Speaker 6: part of the Biden administration when he switched floors from

876
00:59:13,773 --> 00:59:15,933
Speaker 6: i think the seventh floor of the State Department to

877
00:59:15,973 --> 00:59:18,373
Speaker 6: the first floor of the State Department, and there was

878
00:59:18,453 --> 00:59:21,133
Speaker 6: much confusion there as to what is the former Secretary

879
00:59:21,173 --> 00:59:26,853
Speaker 6: of State doing in a different capacity? There was also

880
00:59:27,893 --> 00:59:29,173
Speaker 6: significant room for improvement.

881
00:59:29,213 --> 00:59:32,093
Speaker 2: Shall we say, okay, look, there's a lot more with

882
00:59:32,173 --> 00:59:35,853
Speaker 2: regard to the Biden administration that I'd like to touch

883
00:59:35,893 --> 00:59:38,893
Speaker 2: on a little. At least, it didn't it didn't stop

884
00:59:39,013 --> 00:59:45,853
Speaker 2: with the initial changes. They kept They kept rolling the administration.

885
00:59:46,013 --> 00:59:51,133
Speaker 2: Biden himself turned the Iranian economy around. He did more

886
00:59:51,173 --> 00:59:54,453
Speaker 2: for them, in my opinion, than he did for much

887
00:59:54,453 --> 00:59:58,573
Speaker 2: of his own country in re establishing their place, their financial,

888
00:59:58,613 --> 01:00:01,373
Speaker 2: their economic place in the world. And to me, that

889
01:00:01,653 --> 01:00:02,893
Speaker 2: was treacherous.

890
01:00:03,693 --> 01:00:08,493
Speaker 6: And if I may, the best defense the administration will

891
01:00:08,573 --> 01:00:12,333
Speaker 6: mount to that, and they know I'm a critic, is

892
01:00:12,373 --> 01:00:17,613
Speaker 6: that they would say legally, the bulk of the congressional

893
01:00:17,653 --> 01:00:21,653
Speaker 6: penalties and executive orders that were brought into force and

894
01:00:21,733 --> 01:00:25,413
Speaker 6: were implemented in the past remain on the books. Now

895
01:00:25,453 --> 01:00:28,573
Speaker 6: that is a clever legal slide of hands, because the

896
01:00:28,653 --> 01:00:32,413
Speaker 6: challenge has not been law, but has been enforcement of

897
01:00:32,453 --> 01:00:32,893
Speaker 6: the law.

898
01:00:33,213 --> 01:00:34,213
Speaker 5: It's not a question of.

899
01:00:34,173 --> 01:00:38,053
Speaker 6: Authorities, a question of maxing out and doing all that

900
01:00:38,093 --> 01:00:42,093
Speaker 6: you can and putting assets and national resources towards those authorities.

901
01:00:42,493 --> 01:00:45,613
Speaker 6: And that's precisely why you saw the Iranian economy change

902
01:00:46,293 --> 01:00:49,733
Speaker 6: significantly under Biden, as well as more importantly, the main

903
01:00:49,813 --> 01:00:55,733
Speaker 6: economic artery expand and go in the direction of China,

904
01:00:55,813 --> 01:00:58,333
Speaker 6: and that is oil exports. We have to remember that

905
01:00:58,453 --> 01:01:02,293
Speaker 6: China since twenty eleven has been the largest licit and

906
01:01:02,413 --> 01:01:06,613
Speaker 6: illicit importer of Iranian crude oil, and that is the

907
01:01:06,653 --> 01:01:10,253
Speaker 6: economic artery under which much of the threat vectors that

908
01:01:10,333 --> 01:01:14,373
Speaker 6: we face from Tehran, the repression at home, the aggression abroad,

909
01:01:15,493 --> 01:01:19,533
Speaker 6: has been based on, and the permissibility of that, and

910
01:01:19,573 --> 01:01:21,053
Speaker 6: the fact that it took a year and a half

911
01:01:21,053 --> 01:01:25,693
Speaker 6: to even begin slow Treasury Department designations of petroleum and

912
01:01:25,773 --> 01:01:31,253
Speaker 6: petrochemical smuggling networks as well as refining networks, it was,

913
01:01:31,293 --> 01:01:34,413
Speaker 6: in my view, a major, major, again own goal.

914
01:01:34,973 --> 01:01:38,133
Speaker 2: Is it fair to say that the nuclear development that's

915
01:01:38,173 --> 01:01:42,013
Speaker 2: taken place in the last few years and the funding

916
01:01:42,413 --> 01:01:45,933
Speaker 2: of the proxy wars by Iran is the result of

917
01:01:46,253 --> 01:01:52,213
Speaker 2: essentially the Biden administration feeding wealth to the Iranian administration.

918
01:01:53,293 --> 01:01:56,653
Speaker 6: It's the wealth, but it's the politics surrounding the wealth.

919
01:01:56,693 --> 01:02:00,173
Speaker 6: It's the permissibility of the environment. We know that when

920
01:02:00,173 --> 01:02:02,853
Speaker 6: this regime is put to the choice of guns and butter,

921
01:02:02,973 --> 01:02:06,933
Speaker 6: because it's an authoritarian regime with a revisionist ideology, it

922
01:02:06,973 --> 01:02:11,133
Speaker 6: will preference guns over butter. But the administration has not

923
01:02:11,253 --> 01:02:13,493
Speaker 6: been in the position of making them have to make

924
01:02:13,573 --> 01:02:17,933
Speaker 6: this choice repetitively over time, and therefore the permissive environment,

925
01:02:18,053 --> 01:02:22,773
Speaker 6: the oxygen that that financial flow provided the economy not

926
01:02:22,813 --> 01:02:25,973
Speaker 6: only trickled down to expand those threat programs that you

927
01:02:26,133 --> 01:02:29,853
Speaker 6: are rightly concerned about, such as Iranian drones which are

928
01:02:29,893 --> 01:02:33,093
Speaker 6: now found on four different continents by the way, as

929
01:02:33,093 --> 01:02:38,093
Speaker 6: well as bilistic missile testing transfers an increased usage such

930
01:02:38,133 --> 01:02:41,173
Speaker 6: that in the first four months of twenty twenty four,

931
01:02:41,853 --> 01:02:44,893
Speaker 6: a non nuclear country like the Islamic Republic of Iran

932
01:02:45,093 --> 01:02:49,053
Speaker 6: fired ballistic missiles overtly and directly from its own territory

933
01:02:49,093 --> 01:02:53,373
Speaker 6: against two nuclear armed nations, Pakistan and Israel, and live

934
01:02:53,453 --> 01:02:56,653
Speaker 6: to tell the tale. So such as the story of emboldenment.

935
01:02:56,813 --> 01:03:02,013
Speaker 6: This permissive political environment coupled with the financial wherewithal equals

936
01:03:02,693 --> 01:03:07,173
Speaker 6: this increasing capability and increasing resolve and willingness to stay

937
01:03:07,173 --> 01:03:11,293
Speaker 6: in the fight that we now see seating itself in

938
01:03:11,333 --> 01:03:14,413
Speaker 6: these multiple different iterations of proxy wars in the region.

939
01:03:14,533 --> 01:03:19,053
Speaker 6: So to be a bit short about it, yes, it

940
01:03:19,093 --> 01:03:24,533
Speaker 6: was the financial wherewithal plus the sense of permissibility that

941
01:03:24,653 --> 01:03:29,053
Speaker 6: the administration's Iran policy and larger Middle East shortcomings have

942
01:03:29,253 --> 01:03:32,293
Speaker 6: created that led to this Middle East disaster. In my view,

943
01:03:32,773 --> 01:03:35,613
Speaker 6: and these deterrement shortcomings are not limited to the region.

944
01:03:36,333 --> 01:03:39,293
Speaker 6: I think there was a real challenge with respected deterring

945
01:03:39,293 --> 01:03:40,413
Speaker 6: putin in Ukraine.

946
01:03:40,813 --> 01:03:44,213
Speaker 2: Okay, just as a side by question. The American attitude

947
01:03:44,293 --> 01:03:48,133
Speaker 2: to the region has well, it's got differentials if you like,

948
01:03:48,533 --> 01:03:53,093
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking specifically of kata or Qatar, whichever way

949
01:03:53,173 --> 01:03:58,093
Speaker 2: you prefer to say it, and the role that that country,

950
01:03:58,253 --> 01:04:03,413
Speaker 2: by all reports is a supporter of a mass to

951
01:04:03,453 --> 01:04:06,773
Speaker 2: some considerable extent. And yet at the same time it's

952
01:04:06,813 --> 01:04:10,133
Speaker 2: flying it's very fine planes. I might albeit that I

953
01:04:10,173 --> 01:04:13,013
Speaker 2: haven't been on them yet, but it's flying, it's very

954
01:04:13,013 --> 01:04:17,893
Speaker 2: fine airline into all sorts of countries without some repercussion.

955
01:04:18,293 --> 01:04:21,973
Speaker 6: And indeed, the Qatari relationship is a very interesting one

956
01:04:22,013 --> 01:04:26,133
Speaker 6: because it's played host to a whole host of terrorist organizations,

957
01:04:26,653 --> 01:04:30,093
Speaker 6: be it the Taliban or Hamas, and then on the

958
01:04:30,133 --> 01:04:32,933
Speaker 6: other side is trying to increasingly position itself as some

959
01:04:32,973 --> 01:04:36,493
Speaker 6: sort of regional mediator when when you look at money

960
01:04:36,493 --> 01:04:40,173
Speaker 6: flows or look at political inclinations, they seem to be making,

961
01:04:40,973 --> 01:04:43,213
Speaker 6: shall we say, a desire to hedge their bets in

962
01:04:43,253 --> 01:04:46,173
Speaker 6: every direction rather than double down in the pro Western direction.

963
01:04:46,413 --> 01:04:49,133
Speaker 6: And one would think that the country with the biggest

964
01:04:49,173 --> 01:04:55,333
Speaker 6: American Combined Air Operations Center for US forces in that region,

965
01:04:55,413 --> 01:04:59,133
Speaker 6: part of Sencom Central Command, as one of the major

966
01:04:59,173 --> 01:05:04,253
Speaker 6: American military command structures, would be wanting to double down

967
01:05:04,493 --> 01:05:07,133
Speaker 6: on the American side. So it seems like over time

968
01:05:07,813 --> 01:05:12,773
Speaker 6: the finance success of the Qataris has increased or has

969
01:05:12,813 --> 01:05:15,533
Speaker 6: increased their appetite for hedging away from this order.

970
01:05:16,093 --> 01:05:18,373
Speaker 5: And what one would have thought that.

971
01:05:19,853 --> 01:05:23,973
Speaker 6: Purisdictions that had bases and major American military centers and

972
01:05:24,013 --> 01:05:28,333
Speaker 6: facilities would be a tie that would bind and that

973
01:05:28,373 --> 01:05:31,813
Speaker 6: would provide Washington with leverage over these countries should they

974
01:05:31,853 --> 01:05:34,773
Speaker 6: decide to hedge away. Is now being weaponized in the

975
01:05:34,773 --> 01:05:38,733
Speaker 6: opposite direction, such that the presence of that base is

976
01:05:38,773 --> 01:05:41,213
Speaker 6: something I think that Kataris unfortunately.

977
01:05:40,573 --> 01:05:42,893
Speaker 5: Can leverage over America.

978
01:05:43,493 --> 01:05:47,693
Speaker 6: And it is leading to the very sort of ced precocious,

979
01:05:47,973 --> 01:05:51,253
Speaker 6: prickly situation where they're neither a full friend and neither

980
01:05:51,293 --> 01:05:53,413
Speaker 6: a full enemy. And there's different layers, and there's the

981
01:05:53,413 --> 01:05:56,293
Speaker 6: official and the unofficial, and there's the question more of

982
01:05:56,373 --> 01:05:59,493
Speaker 6: than Katari planes, is potential Katari money.

983
01:05:59,973 --> 01:06:02,533
Speaker 2: It's a puzzle in fact, just going back to our

984
01:06:02,573 --> 01:06:06,573
Speaker 2: earlier conversation of five years ago, are you mentioned and

985
01:06:06,693 --> 01:06:11,453
Speaker 2: quite obviously that Iran was afraid of the American reaction

986
01:06:11,733 --> 01:06:15,413
Speaker 2: at the time, Is it afraid of any American reaction now?

987
01:06:16,893 --> 01:06:20,973
Speaker 6: Unfortunately, there were many errors, even in the way I

988
01:06:20,973 --> 01:06:23,893
Speaker 6: think the Trump administration dealt with Iran on the way out,

989
01:06:23,973 --> 01:06:29,293
Speaker 6: such that the ad Washington signaled to Tehran that while

990
01:06:29,333 --> 01:06:34,053
Speaker 6: it had overwhelming military capability, it was increasingly hesitant to

991
01:06:34,133 --> 01:06:38,213
Speaker 6: use that capability, such that when we were speaking, you know,

992
01:06:38,773 --> 01:06:40,893
Speaker 6: just a few weeks later, in September of that year,

993
01:06:41,773 --> 01:06:45,333
Speaker 6: there was a major Iranian drone and missile attack against

994
01:06:45,373 --> 01:06:49,253
Speaker 6: Saudi oil refineries, and the Americans did not militarily respond,

995
01:06:49,613 --> 01:06:53,333
Speaker 6: such that a few months after that, the regime responded

996
01:06:53,373 --> 01:06:56,213
Speaker 6: to the US killing of Costumsulemani, who was the regime's

997
01:06:56,293 --> 01:07:00,373
Speaker 6: chief terrorist, by launching the biggest ever bailistic missile barrage

998
01:07:00,373 --> 01:07:03,453
Speaker 6: against US forces since the end of World War Two,

999
01:07:04,013 --> 01:07:07,013
Speaker 6: and again America did not respond, let alone the track

1000
01:07:07,093 --> 01:07:09,653
Speaker 6: record of non responses an absorption we've seen from the

1001
01:07:09,653 --> 01:07:12,613
Speaker 6: Biden administration, both from the patron as well as from

1002
01:07:12,613 --> 01:07:17,293
Speaker 6: the proxy, such that today the Iranian kind of governmental

1003
01:07:17,333 --> 01:07:22,293
Speaker 6: elite and worse than military elite, understand the conventional military imbalance,

1004
01:07:22,573 --> 01:07:26,293
Speaker 6: but what they're banking on is the resolve of America,

1005
01:07:26,533 --> 01:07:29,653
Speaker 6: meaning the resolve the lack of staying power. That's where

1006
01:07:29,653 --> 01:07:31,933
Speaker 6: they hope to capitalize and that's how they hope to win.

1007
01:07:32,453 --> 01:07:36,693
Speaker 6: So in the region today, fast forward to twenty twenty four,

1008
01:07:37,693 --> 01:07:40,573
Speaker 6: you may have four thousand additional US forces. You may

1009
01:07:40,613 --> 01:07:42,853
Speaker 6: have a squadron of F twenty twos and F thirty

1010
01:07:42,893 --> 01:07:46,453
Speaker 6: fives and potentially two carrier strike groups and even one

1011
01:07:46,813 --> 01:07:51,333
Speaker 6: nuclear powered submarine with Tomahawk cruise missiles. But that may

1012
01:07:51,373 --> 01:07:54,333
Speaker 6: not be the cause of Iran not striking Israel directly.

1013
01:07:55,053 --> 01:07:58,653
Speaker 6: Iran is actually prying and playing on American desire for

1014
01:07:58,813 --> 01:08:02,253
Speaker 6: restraint because it's gambling that these are shows of force

1015
01:08:02,653 --> 01:08:05,853
Speaker 6: designed to avoid the use of force, and in that situation,

1016
01:08:07,093 --> 01:08:09,493
Speaker 6: we will have a hard time to turning our adversary

1017
01:08:09,533 --> 01:08:12,813
Speaker 6: down the line. And that's because they understand, just like

1018
01:08:12,853 --> 01:08:15,573
Speaker 6: anyone who pays attention to the language from this administration

1019
01:08:15,613 --> 01:08:19,173
Speaker 6: will understand that the US has a contradictory mission in

1020
01:08:19,213 --> 01:08:23,533
Speaker 6: the region. It is at once seeking de escalation and deterrence,

1021
01:08:24,293 --> 01:08:27,333
Speaker 6: but if you are establishing or bolstering your deterrence, you're

1022
01:08:27,493 --> 01:08:30,533
Speaker 6: under you are necessarily going to have to escalate, which

1023
01:08:30,613 --> 01:08:33,813
Speaker 6: undermines the de escalation mission. But given the desire for

1024
01:08:33,893 --> 01:08:37,253
Speaker 6: America to leave the region, which has been omnipresent, under

1025
01:08:37,253 --> 01:08:42,533
Speaker 6: the Obama, Trump, Biden and whoever else will follow him administrations,

1026
01:08:43,693 --> 01:08:46,933
Speaker 6: the Iranians are gambling that when push comes to shove,

1027
01:08:47,053 --> 01:08:50,213
Speaker 6: America will prioritize d escalation over deterrence.

1028
01:08:51,213 --> 01:08:55,853
Speaker 2: So you're suggesting that Trump probably has lost some of

1029
01:08:55,893 --> 01:09:00,853
Speaker 2: the mystique that he had about him and the unknowingness

1030
01:09:00,893 --> 01:09:05,213
Speaker 2: of what he might be prepared to do if he

1031
01:09:05,253 --> 01:09:06,133
Speaker 2: takes the reins again.

1032
01:09:07,573 --> 01:09:12,133
Speaker 6: And indeed it is not irreparable even for a Democrat,

1033
01:09:12,173 --> 01:09:15,533
Speaker 6: let alone for former President Trump. But it is not

1034
01:09:15,533 --> 01:09:18,373
Speaker 6: what it used to be. Per even when you look at,

1035
01:09:18,373 --> 01:09:21,973
Speaker 6: for example, prior to the advent of the maximum pressure sanctions,

1036
01:09:22,253 --> 01:09:25,573
Speaker 6: the Iranian economy was contracting simply because of the fear

1037
01:09:26,093 --> 01:09:29,813
Speaker 6: and the uncertainty over what the future of his Iran

1038
01:09:29,893 --> 01:09:30,813
Speaker 6: policy may entail.

1039
01:09:31,853 --> 01:09:33,693
Speaker 2: I want to quote you something and hitting in a

1040
01:09:33,733 --> 01:09:37,893
Speaker 2: slightly different direction, but it involves it. Well, you'll see.

1041
01:09:38,053 --> 01:09:39,973
Speaker 2: In August of twenty twenty one, the world watched this.

1042
01:09:40,053 --> 01:09:44,373
Speaker 2: American forces scrambled to evacuate Afghanistan as the Teleban reclaimed power.

1043
01:09:44,893 --> 01:09:48,493
Speaker 2: The paniced withdrawal reached tragic climax on August twenty six,

1044
01:09:49,173 --> 01:09:52,893
Speaker 2: when thirteen American service members and more than one hundred

1045
01:09:53,253 --> 01:09:57,013
Speaker 2: Afghan civilians were killed by a suicide bomber at Carvill Airport,

1046
01:09:57,613 --> 01:10:01,973
Speaker 2: where security was a US responsibility. Four days later, when

1047
01:10:02,013 --> 01:10:05,093
Speaker 2: the last military planes took off from that same airport,

1048
01:10:05,333 --> 01:10:09,973
Speaker 2: hundreds of American citizens were left behind. A month later,

1049
01:10:10,453 --> 01:10:14,453
Speaker 2: when the Defense when the Secretary of Defense, the Chairman

1050
01:10:14,493 --> 01:10:18,893
Speaker 2: of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Sentcom commanding

1051
01:10:18,973 --> 01:10:21,973
Speaker 2: General were called before Congress to account for the failure.

1052
01:10:22,453 --> 01:10:27,293
Speaker 2: They neither offered explanations nor accepted responsibility. The message was clear,

1053
01:10:28,093 --> 01:10:31,733
Speaker 2: incompetence would be the new norm for the US military,

1054
01:10:32,173 --> 01:10:37,573
Speaker 2: a predictably lethal status quo. Now. The only other thing

1055
01:10:37,613 --> 01:10:40,253
Speaker 2: that I want to mention with regard to this is

1056
01:10:40,493 --> 01:10:45,413
Speaker 2: the is the application of woke rules with regard to

1057
01:10:45,453 --> 01:10:48,053
Speaker 2: the structure of the military. I mean, who are you

1058
01:10:48,093 --> 01:10:50,453
Speaker 2: in the foxhole with question mark?

1059
01:10:50,253 --> 01:10:51,013
Speaker 3: Think how much?

1060
01:10:51,053 --> 01:10:54,093
Speaker 2: Sorry? How much? In your opinion? Is the state of

1061
01:10:54,253 --> 01:10:58,373
Speaker 2: the American Defense forces having an influence on all of this?

1062
01:10:59,133 --> 01:11:07,693
Speaker 6: Certainly the establishmentarian nature of the American and American military

1063
01:11:08,373 --> 01:11:13,093
Speaker 6: apparatus today. I'm hesitant to use the word military industrial

1064
01:11:13,133 --> 01:11:15,933
Speaker 6: complex simply for folks thinking it to be a pejorative

1065
01:11:18,333 --> 01:11:22,613
Speaker 6: that attitude leads it to actually, in my view, more

1066
01:11:22,853 --> 01:11:28,173
Speaker 6: establishmentarian behavior, which means on balance, more restraint or pushing

1067
01:11:28,173 --> 01:11:31,373
Speaker 6: away from the table. You know, there's long been talk

1068
01:11:31,413 --> 01:11:33,973
Speaker 6: of the American military as a lumbering giants trying to

1069
01:11:34,013 --> 01:11:36,213
Speaker 6: avoid conflict and then when it comes in, it comes

1070
01:11:36,253 --> 01:11:39,933
Speaker 6: crashing and barreling in. That's a crass analogy, but there

1071
01:11:39,973 --> 01:11:41,693
Speaker 6: is a kernel of truth to it now and again,

1072
01:11:41,773 --> 01:11:44,973
Speaker 6: particularly when looking at the Middle East. But you mentioned

1073
01:11:45,013 --> 01:11:48,653
Speaker 6: the withdrawal from Afghanistan, and that was botched in every

1074
01:11:48,653 --> 01:11:52,053
Speaker 6: which way politically and militarily, as well as, of course

1075
01:11:52,053 --> 01:11:55,173
Speaker 6: from an intelligence perspective, the failure to see the speed

1076
01:11:55,173 --> 01:11:58,333
Speaker 6: at which the Taliban could reconquer the country, the failure

1077
01:11:58,373 --> 01:12:02,493
Speaker 6: of their assessment of the Afghan domestic security forces, the

1078
01:12:02,653 --> 01:12:06,213
Speaker 6: inability to save those who work with Americans for basically

1079
01:12:06,253 --> 01:12:12,173
Speaker 6: two decades in that and the spectacle that Batch withdrawal had,

1080
01:12:12,213 --> 01:12:15,613
Speaker 6: and the undermining of American deterrence which led to, in

1081
01:12:15,653 --> 01:12:18,973
Speaker 6: my view, the invasion of Ukraine, as well as this

1082
01:12:19,093 --> 01:12:22,933
Speaker 6: increased risk taking behavior that we see from the Islamic republics,

1083
01:12:22,973 --> 01:12:26,853
Speaker 6: such that one month after that botch withdrawal, the commander

1084
01:12:26,853 --> 01:12:30,213
Speaker 6: of Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard course said, the America of

1085
01:12:30,213 --> 01:12:33,373
Speaker 6: today is not the same America of ten twenty years ago.

1086
01:12:34,053 --> 01:12:36,373
Speaker 6: And that's where I think the other element of your

1087
01:12:36,453 --> 01:12:41,253
Speaker 6: question should enter, which is perhaps not just the woke elements,

1088
01:12:41,293 --> 01:12:45,053
Speaker 6: but the cultural element of our politics, the cultural element

1089
01:12:45,133 --> 01:12:49,373
Speaker 6: of our military. And that is a conversation that has

1090
01:12:49,453 --> 01:12:52,293
Speaker 6: not reached its completion yet. Do I think we failed

1091
01:12:52,333 --> 01:12:55,693
Speaker 6: in Afghanistan because of the woke mind virus? No? But

1092
01:12:55,813 --> 01:12:58,493
Speaker 6: do I find this stuff to be seating itself in

1093
01:12:58,613 --> 01:13:04,733
Speaker 6: establishmentarian institutions and like a virus spreading over time. Yes,

1094
01:13:05,413 --> 01:13:09,013
Speaker 6: But that's why, Actually I think the front line policy

1095
01:13:09,053 --> 01:13:14,653
Speaker 6: to push back on that, to immunize these institutions are

1096
01:13:14,693 --> 01:13:17,493
Speaker 6: actually people. If it is a culture war, for lack

1097
01:13:17,533 --> 01:13:22,613
Speaker 6: of a better word, legislation and regulation are not going

1098
01:13:22,653 --> 01:13:25,373
Speaker 6: to do the heavy lifting. People are going to have

1099
01:13:25,413 --> 01:13:27,653
Speaker 6: to do the heavy lifting. I know this is a

1100
01:13:27,653 --> 01:13:32,333
Speaker 6: bit of a distant technology, so forgive me, but I

1101
01:13:32,333 --> 01:13:35,333
Speaker 6: think it is relevant here. But how we adjudicate fights

1102
01:13:35,373 --> 01:13:39,853
Speaker 6: between ourselves as left and right and center and partisan

1103
01:13:39,853 --> 01:13:42,853
Speaker 6: and non partisan, not just in America but in every

1104
01:13:42,973 --> 01:13:47,693
Speaker 6: single Western liberal democracy matters more than ever before today

1105
01:13:48,093 --> 01:13:51,453
Speaker 6: because if we treat our neighbors and our fellow citizens

1106
01:13:52,013 --> 01:13:56,093
Speaker 6: as enemy combatants. I think that's an on ramp to

1107
01:13:56,973 --> 01:14:00,853
Speaker 6: the greater authoritarian interference that we've seen more than ever

1108
01:14:00,893 --> 01:14:05,253
Speaker 6: before from Russia, China, Iran and their like minded axis

1109
01:14:05,933 --> 01:14:08,813
Speaker 6: in our domestic politics. And whether it comes from the

1110
01:14:08,813 --> 01:14:11,493
Speaker 6: far left or the far right, I don't care, but

1111
01:14:11,573 --> 01:14:14,773
Speaker 6: I have noticed this corrosive effect. So the best immunization

1112
01:14:15,493 --> 01:14:19,133
Speaker 6: is an informed citizenry. And we like to talk a

1113
01:14:19,133 --> 01:14:21,453
Speaker 6: heck of a lot about rights, and the woke folks

1114
01:14:21,573 --> 01:14:26,533
Speaker 6: love to expand the scope of applicable rights. But rights

1115
01:14:26,573 --> 01:14:30,893
Speaker 6: come with responsibilities, and I think Western citizens, particularly those

1116
01:14:30,893 --> 01:14:34,573
Speaker 6: in liberal democracies, have to, with immense respects, be somewhat

1117
01:14:34,613 --> 01:14:39,173
Speaker 6: better about living out and carrying out those responsibilities in

1118
01:14:39,253 --> 01:14:41,653
Speaker 6: the institutions that they work or live in.

1119
01:14:42,813 --> 01:14:46,413
Speaker 2: And I think that that was beautifully put fible things.

1120
01:14:46,533 --> 01:14:47,133
Speaker 5: Thank you, Ben.

1121
01:14:47,853 --> 01:14:50,373
Speaker 2: And this is something that I bypassed earlier on but

1122
01:14:50,413 --> 01:14:52,733
Speaker 2: it belonged there. But will slot it in any way.

1123
01:14:53,253 --> 01:14:57,293
Speaker 2: The Hooties. When Biden took power, the first thing he did,

1124
01:14:57,773 --> 01:15:00,853
Speaker 2: I think, almost in this area, was to de register

1125
01:15:00,933 --> 01:15:07,013
Speaker 2: the Hooties as terrorists, which at the time seems stupid

1126
01:15:07,653 --> 01:15:11,773
Speaker 2: and at the prison time at the moment seems idiotic

1127
01:15:11,973 --> 01:15:14,093
Speaker 2: and stupid, and I could think of a few more

1128
01:15:14,133 --> 01:15:16,213
Speaker 2: words you say.

1129
01:15:16,293 --> 01:15:20,493
Speaker 5: It reminds me of where we just left off.

1130
01:15:20,533 --> 01:15:23,733
Speaker 6: Whereas the desire to spite another side of the American

1131
01:15:23,773 --> 01:15:27,973
Speaker 6: political spectrum leads to the undermining of the American national interest.

1132
01:15:29,053 --> 01:15:32,533
Speaker 6: I don't mean to impugne more political motives that may exist,

1133
01:15:32,573 --> 01:15:36,613
Speaker 6: but I do believe that is politically motivated. The Trump administration,

1134
01:15:36,733 --> 01:15:41,293
Speaker 6: on its way out, admittedly designated the Huthis under America's

1135
01:15:41,333 --> 01:15:45,573
Speaker 6: Foreign Terrorist Organization Authority, so basically put it on a

1136
01:15:45,653 --> 01:15:49,853
Speaker 6: list of other terrorist organizations, applying sanctions that come from

1137
01:15:49,893 --> 01:15:53,333
Speaker 6: the State Department to this entity, and I think rightly so,

1138
01:15:54,893 --> 01:15:58,373
Speaker 6: but dividen administration after seeing this move in January twenty

1139
01:15:58,453 --> 01:16:02,333
Speaker 6: twenty one, in late January early February, said that they

1140
01:16:02,333 --> 01:16:05,173
Speaker 6: would review the decision and then ultimately by the end

1141
01:16:05,213 --> 01:16:08,253
Speaker 6: of February said that they would remove this organization.

1142
01:16:08,453 --> 01:16:09,013
Speaker 5: And they did so.

1143
01:16:10,013 --> 01:16:14,413
Speaker 6: And while they moved from that removal into something of

1144
01:16:14,453 --> 01:16:19,693
Speaker 6: a contested and multiple times extended brokeer ceasefire between the

1145
01:16:19,693 --> 01:16:23,973
Speaker 6: Saudi Coalition and the Houthi rebels in Yemen. Despite the

1146
01:16:23,973 --> 01:16:27,253
Speaker 6: fact that the legitimate government of Yemen continues to not

1147
01:16:27,293 --> 01:16:29,973
Speaker 6: be able to operate in Sana and indeed is an exile.

1148
01:16:31,093 --> 01:16:34,893
Speaker 6: The administration thought it bought time with that delisting, and

1149
01:16:34,933 --> 01:16:38,653
Speaker 6: indeed I thought it bought peace. But in Huthi military

1150
01:16:38,693 --> 01:16:43,853
Speaker 6: parades that followed since the delisting, particularly in September, when

1151
01:16:43,853 --> 01:16:47,453
Speaker 6: they commemorate their overtaking of the capital every year in

1152
01:16:47,493 --> 01:16:51,613
Speaker 6: a large military procession in September twenty twenty two in

1153
01:16:51,653 --> 01:16:56,293
Speaker 6: September twenty twenty three, while they believed, the administration believed

1154
01:16:56,333 --> 01:17:00,813
Speaker 6: that this trade off for the delisting and the pausing

1155
01:17:00,853 --> 01:17:04,613
Speaker 6: of the conflict was something worthwhile, I nearly fell out

1156
01:17:04,653 --> 01:17:08,013
Speaker 6: of my chair every year when watching those military processions.

1157
01:17:08,533 --> 01:17:10,973
Speaker 5: The evolution and the long range strike.

1158
01:17:10,733 --> 01:17:13,773
Speaker 6: Capabilities in the hands of the Huthis was game changing

1159
01:17:14,493 --> 01:17:17,613
Speaker 6: the Islamic Republic during those two years of a quote

1160
01:17:17,613 --> 01:17:24,973
Speaker 6: ceasefire or broker deal. Broker peace deal flowed state level

1161
01:17:25,053 --> 01:17:29,453
Speaker 6: capabilities into the hands of a non state actor, such

1162
01:17:29,493 --> 01:17:33,813
Speaker 6: that the Hezbola in Lebanon that Iran created versus the

1163
01:17:33,853 --> 01:17:37,893
Speaker 6: Huthis in Yemen which Iran merely co opted, now had

1164
01:17:38,573 --> 01:17:44,653
Speaker 6: capabilities bigger and badder than many conventional European armies. To date,

1165
01:17:44,773 --> 01:17:48,453
Speaker 6: the Huthis are the only proxy of Iran with medium

1166
01:17:48,573 --> 01:17:54,013
Speaker 6: range ballistic missiles, with anti ship ballistic missiles. That is

1167
01:17:54,053 --> 01:17:59,093
Speaker 6: a military capability that no other proxy in Tehran's axis

1168
01:17:59,093 --> 01:18:00,133
Speaker 6: of resistance has.

1169
01:18:00,973 --> 01:18:02,693
Speaker 5: And this was brought to you.

1170
01:18:02,613 --> 01:18:06,773
Speaker 6: By that period of time, during a brokere ceasefire. That

1171
01:18:06,853 --> 01:18:11,773
Speaker 6: was brought to you by this politicized, fateful delisting of

1172
01:18:11,773 --> 01:18:15,573
Speaker 6: the Houthis as a terrorist organization. And while the administration

1173
01:18:15,733 --> 01:18:20,533
Speaker 6: now has tried to atone for this mistake using a

1174
01:18:20,533 --> 01:18:25,813
Speaker 6: different Treasury Department terrorist sanctions authority against the group, which

1175
01:18:25,853 --> 01:18:29,373
Speaker 6: is somewhat weaker, but nonetheless is the application of terrorism

1176
01:18:29,413 --> 01:18:34,333
Speaker 6: sanctions is too little, too late, in my views, such

1177
01:18:34,373 --> 01:18:37,133
Speaker 6: that today, when you have combined American and even UK

1178
01:18:37,293 --> 01:18:41,773
Speaker 6: military power against the Houthis, we are spending more, we

1179
01:18:41,853 --> 01:18:45,093
Speaker 6: are intercepting more, but we are not at all dealing

1180
01:18:45,213 --> 01:18:47,213
Speaker 6: with the heart of the crisis, which is on land

1181
01:18:47,773 --> 01:18:52,413
Speaker 6: in Yemen. And that's a very precocious situation, one that

1182
01:18:52,453 --> 01:18:56,413
Speaker 6: two can easily spiral out of control, and one that

1183
01:18:56,533 --> 01:19:00,173
Speaker 6: is brought to you by many own goals and political mistakes.

1184
01:19:00,253 --> 01:19:05,293
Speaker 2: All right, So finally, to round that off, you've got

1185
01:19:05,333 --> 01:19:08,893
Speaker 2: to the strikes now pretty well locked out, and the

1186
01:19:09,053 --> 01:19:11,453
Speaker 2: ships are having to go around the cape again. This

1187
01:19:11,573 --> 01:19:14,893
Speaker 2: is going to add to greatly to the cost of

1188
01:19:15,333 --> 01:19:20,933
Speaker 2: imports and exports. It's going to probably influence inflation in

1189
01:19:20,973 --> 01:19:25,253
Speaker 2: the United States, if not elsewhere as well considerably. Then

1190
01:19:25,253 --> 01:19:28,773
Speaker 2: you've got the lack of outrage over the environmental issue

1191
01:19:28,773 --> 01:19:32,493
Speaker 2: that's the result of the Hooties and their missiles. Where

1192
01:19:32,533 --> 01:19:37,333
Speaker 2: does a new administration go to a Trump administration, it'd

1193
01:19:37,373 --> 01:19:39,653
Speaker 2: be specific to fix this.

1194
01:19:40,613 --> 01:19:44,453
Speaker 6: For the entire region, but also in this Red Sea

1195
01:19:44,653 --> 01:19:48,533
Speaker 6: Barbel mendeb Straight Gulf of Aiden crisis that you rightly

1196
01:19:48,573 --> 01:19:51,693
Speaker 6: point to, which can effect ten to twelve percent of

1197
01:19:51,813 --> 01:19:54,973
Speaker 6: global trade, potentially a bit more because it's not just

1198
01:19:55,053 --> 01:19:58,013
Speaker 6: the East West corridor of maritime trade, but it's that

1199
01:19:58,053 --> 01:20:00,813
Speaker 6: maritime trade that has been bloated by the lack of

1200
01:20:00,893 --> 01:20:05,253
Speaker 6: airborne East West trade given Russia's invasion of Ukraine as well,

1201
01:20:05,333 --> 01:20:09,613
Speaker 6: so some of that north Northern Northern corridor has moved south.

1202
01:20:10,293 --> 01:20:11,653
Speaker 5: In this world, the.

1203
01:20:11,613 --> 01:20:16,133
Speaker 6: Administration will need priorities and will need to prioritize the

1204
01:20:16,173 --> 01:20:19,733
Speaker 6: myriad threats coming from the region, including this one, and

1205
01:20:19,893 --> 01:20:24,333
Speaker 6: the principle by which I argue they should prioritize is

1206
01:20:24,413 --> 01:20:27,973
Speaker 6: a zero sum approach given the strategic competition we find

1207
01:20:28,013 --> 01:20:30,973
Speaker 6: ourselves in not just for hearts and minds the Middle East,

1208
01:20:31,293 --> 01:20:34,893
Speaker 6: but for the assertion and defense and propagation of interests

1209
01:20:34,933 --> 01:20:38,493
Speaker 6: and security and order in the Middle East, such that

1210
01:20:38,573 --> 01:20:41,293
Speaker 6: the number one prism, I would argue the future Trump

1211
01:20:41,333 --> 01:20:45,133
Speaker 6: administration should view the region through.

1212
01:20:45,773 --> 01:20:47,173
Speaker 5: The lens or the glasses.

1213
01:20:47,293 --> 01:20:50,653
Speaker 6: You could even say, is the strategic competition with the

1214
01:20:50,733 --> 01:20:53,893
Speaker 6: Islamic Republic of Run. What is bad for them is

1215
01:20:53,933 --> 01:20:57,373
Speaker 6: good for us. And that has to be the principle,

1216
01:20:57,413 --> 01:21:00,613
Speaker 6: because for too long we have disconnected the dots, seeing

1217
01:21:00,613 --> 01:21:03,773
Speaker 6: these as totally independent theaters. Try to deal with the

1218
01:21:03,773 --> 01:21:07,053
Speaker 6: symptom and not the cause. And I think a strategy

1219
01:21:07,093 --> 01:21:10,293
Speaker 6: of maximum support for the Iranian people who are increasingly

1220
01:21:10,333 --> 01:21:14,853
Speaker 6: protesting this terrorist apparatus and maximum pressure on this regime

1221
01:21:15,333 --> 01:21:18,573
Speaker 6: and escalating that pressure over time is going to be

1222
01:21:18,613 --> 01:21:23,173
Speaker 6: the only way to approach this problem. And by taking

1223
01:21:23,213 --> 01:21:26,453
Speaker 6: the arsonist out of this regional equation, you can begin

1224
01:21:26,533 --> 01:21:29,013
Speaker 6: to deal with some of those localized threats like the

1225
01:21:29,053 --> 01:21:31,293
Speaker 6: Red Sea one that we talked about. But if there

1226
01:21:31,333 --> 01:21:34,413
Speaker 6: is merely the bureaucratic inheritance of the same policy where

1227
01:21:34,413 --> 01:21:37,653
Speaker 6: we pay much more money to keep more forces there

1228
01:21:37,853 --> 01:21:42,173
Speaker 6: to intercept projectiles that are cheaper to produce, cheaper to procure,

1229
01:21:42,493 --> 01:21:45,893
Speaker 6: cheaper to proliferate, and cheaper to fire. Then we forever

1230
01:21:46,013 --> 01:21:48,893
Speaker 6: will be behind the cost curve, and they will win

1231
01:21:49,013 --> 01:21:52,333
Speaker 6: the war of attrition, not against our capabilities, but against

1232
01:21:52,333 --> 01:21:56,133
Speaker 6: our resolve, and the political implications on the backside of

1233
01:21:56,133 --> 01:21:58,093
Speaker 6: that defeat will be tremendous.

1234
01:21:58,413 --> 01:22:02,453
Speaker 2: At this point, the outcome of this presidential election Europe

1235
01:22:02,573 --> 01:22:09,813
Speaker 2: part here at this point addiction for the outcome of

1236
01:22:09,853 --> 01:22:11,053
Speaker 2: the presidential election.

1237
01:22:13,093 --> 01:22:19,733
Speaker 6: I was trying to avoid the prophetology prediction world. You know,

1238
01:22:20,133 --> 01:22:22,933
Speaker 6: wise men are still struggling to predict the implications of

1239
01:22:23,013 --> 01:22:26,573
Speaker 6: that which has already transpired. To really forecast in the

1240
01:22:26,573 --> 01:22:29,773
Speaker 6: future would be much more art and science. But I

1241
01:22:29,853 --> 01:22:33,013
Speaker 6: have to tell you I think there are some and

1242
01:22:33,333 --> 01:22:35,853
Speaker 6: I'm more of a foreign policy watcher than domestic.

1243
01:22:35,893 --> 01:22:39,293
Speaker 5: But I'm just saying these views independently. As an American citizen.

1244
01:22:40,413 --> 01:22:46,853
Speaker 6: One could see the major spike in the Trump approval

1245
01:22:46,893 --> 01:22:49,413
Speaker 6: rating and even in the confidence of the presidents following

1246
01:22:50,133 --> 01:22:55,213
Speaker 6: the assassination attempt on his life, and many anticipated that

1247
01:22:55,253 --> 01:22:57,933
Speaker 6: Biden at that point in time would not be dropping out.

1248
01:22:59,133 --> 01:23:04,053
Speaker 6: But given that, indeed he did, and the baton was

1249
01:23:04,133 --> 01:23:09,493
Speaker 6: passed to the Vice President, Kamala Harris. I think the

1250
01:23:09,573 --> 01:23:13,453
Speaker 6: pick for vice president for President Trump was a pick

1251
01:23:13,533 --> 01:23:16,893
Speaker 6: born out of confidence rather than a pick born out

1252
01:23:16,933 --> 01:23:20,093
Speaker 6: of a desire to persuade or win over certain constituency.

1253
01:23:20,773 --> 01:23:23,533
Speaker 6: And given that, and given that the polls have since

1254
01:23:24,213 --> 01:23:28,293
Speaker 6: nearly leveled in some key battleground states, and given that

1255
01:23:28,333 --> 01:23:32,253
Speaker 6: we have the electoral college in America, focus should be

1256
01:23:32,333 --> 01:23:38,493
Speaker 6: on Pennsylvania, Ohio, Virginia, Florida, Nevada, and Arizona and Georgia

1257
01:23:38,933 --> 01:23:41,453
Speaker 6: to get a good reading. And if one does take

1258
01:23:41,493 --> 01:23:45,053
Speaker 6: a look at those states, it will largely be whoever

1259
01:23:45,093 --> 01:23:48,653
Speaker 6: wins by a hair. And I don't know, and I

1260
01:23:48,653 --> 01:23:53,413
Speaker 6: say this as an American, Unfortunately, I don't know how prepared

1261
01:23:53,453 --> 01:23:56,773
Speaker 6: our society is at this moment to accept any margin

1262
01:23:56,853 --> 01:23:59,173
Speaker 6: in any direction by a hair.

1263
01:23:59,453 --> 01:24:00,533
Speaker 5: And that's why I'm worried.

1264
01:24:00,813 --> 01:24:02,653
Speaker 2: And I think you have every right to me and

1265
01:24:02,773 --> 01:24:06,133
Speaker 2: I am. I hope that we're both wrong. So with that,

1266
01:24:06,253 --> 01:24:09,293
Speaker 2: I say, thank you. It's been five years. Maybe we

1267
01:24:09,333 --> 01:24:10,893
Speaker 2: can make it a little shorter next time.

1268
01:24:12,253 --> 01:24:14,413
Speaker 5: That would be my pleasure. Thank you, So much.

1269
01:24:14,293 --> 01:24:25,333
Speaker 2: And thank you kindly. Light and Smith now into mail

1270
01:24:25,373 --> 01:24:28,333
Speaker 2: room number two hundred and fifty three with missus producer.

1271
01:24:28,453 --> 01:24:30,973
Speaker 2: And I'm not asking. I know how fantastic you are.

1272
01:24:31,493 --> 01:24:33,293
Speaker 7: Yeah, but you look a bit rough. You haven't even

1273
01:24:33,293 --> 01:24:34,413
Speaker 7: combed your hair this morning.

1274
01:24:34,493 --> 01:24:36,693
Speaker 2: Well, you didn't do what I did this morning, early

1275
01:24:37,013 --> 01:24:39,733
Speaker 2: in the pouring rain, ran.

1276
01:24:39,573 --> 01:24:41,373
Speaker 7: Out in the road to put the bins out.

1277
01:24:41,533 --> 01:24:43,653
Speaker 2: Yeah, not just for me, for the neighbors as well.

1278
01:24:43,853 --> 01:24:46,013
Speaker 7: I know he was three hours too early.

1279
01:24:46,093 --> 01:24:49,173
Speaker 2: How dare he at least? Anyway? Why didn't you take

1280
01:24:49,213 --> 01:24:49,693
Speaker 2: the wheel?

1281
01:24:49,773 --> 01:24:54,013
Speaker 7: I will start. Chris is talking about Stephen Rainbow. She

1282
01:24:54,013 --> 01:24:56,293
Speaker 7: said how nice it was to have him on your podcast,

1283
01:24:56,693 --> 01:24:59,773
Speaker 7: and she says his answer to conflict is more valuable

1284
01:24:59,853 --> 01:25:03,213
Speaker 7: and profound than he may realize, so she wanted to

1285
01:25:03,293 --> 01:25:08,973
Speaker 7: emphasize what she said. Basically, he indicated that listening was

1286
01:25:08,973 --> 01:25:13,053
Speaker 7: a way to build bridges, but extreme listening, says Chris,

1287
01:25:13,173 --> 01:25:17,813
Speaker 7: is life changing. Deeply, listening to somebody you violently disagree

1288
01:25:17,853 --> 01:25:20,133
Speaker 7: with is one of the hardest and bravest things a

1289
01:25:20,213 --> 01:25:24,013
Speaker 7: human can do. It takes great courage and often requires

1290
01:25:24,053 --> 01:25:27,013
Speaker 7: being willing to enjoy a barrage from both sides. For

1291
01:25:27,053 --> 01:25:30,413
Speaker 7: simply taking the time to listen, and then she goes

1292
01:25:30,453 --> 01:25:32,933
Speaker 7: on to address Stephen and says, I wish you well

1293
01:25:32,973 --> 01:25:35,733
Speaker 7: in your new role as Chief of the Human Rights Commission.

1294
01:25:35,933 --> 01:25:39,613
Speaker 7: May you two find the life change hidden inside extreme listening,

1295
01:25:40,093 --> 01:25:43,173
Speaker 7: and may your example of that listening help others around

1296
01:25:43,213 --> 01:25:46,533
Speaker 7: the world diffuse conflict in Ukraine and the Middle East

1297
01:25:46,653 --> 01:25:50,013
Speaker 7: for starters, Actually, Chris was sorry, Chris, I did take

1298
01:25:50,053 --> 01:25:51,933
Speaker 7: out a little bit of it because, as you guys

1299
01:25:51,973 --> 01:25:55,493
Speaker 7: will know, some of your missives are very lengthy, and

1300
01:25:55,613 --> 01:25:58,613
Speaker 7: she was saying that she was introduced to extreme so

1301
01:25:58,733 --> 01:26:04,253
Speaker 7: called extreme listening by Da Kahan and her documentary White

1302
01:26:04,653 --> 01:26:07,293
Speaker 7: Right Meeting the Enemy. If anybody wants to look.

1303
01:26:07,173 --> 01:26:11,613
Speaker 2: For that, Cam. I enjoyed your recent podcast interviewing doctor

1304
01:26:11,653 --> 01:26:15,893
Speaker 2: Stephen Rainbow. I've found him rather uninformed though around the

1305
01:26:15,933 --> 01:26:19,293
Speaker 2: issue facing or the issues facing Western nations over the

1306
01:26:19,333 --> 01:26:23,413
Speaker 2: mass illegal immigration of people from Muslim countries. One of

1307
01:26:23,413 --> 01:26:27,293
Speaker 2: the many issues, other than accommodating and finding work for

1308
01:26:27,413 --> 01:26:32,173
Speaker 2: a mass influx of only fighting age men, is the murders,

1309
01:26:33,173 --> 01:26:37,133
Speaker 2: as can be now observed in a dystopian nineteen forty

1310
01:26:37,373 --> 01:26:41,733
Speaker 2: esque England and the number of English people murdered by

1311
01:26:41,773 --> 01:26:46,173
Speaker 2: these immigrants has skyrocketed. It really sinks in when one

1312
01:26:46,213 --> 01:26:49,653
Speaker 2: sees a montage of the murdered people's faces. Please find

1313
01:26:49,693 --> 01:26:53,213
Speaker 2: an example attached And attached is that I haven't got

1314
01:26:53,293 --> 01:26:55,773
Speaker 2: to the end of it because there's so many. Also,

1315
01:26:55,813 --> 01:26:57,973
Speaker 2: I found him to be vague and when pushed on

1316
01:26:58,013 --> 01:27:02,133
Speaker 2: a topic, he would retreat into a position of aren't

1317
01:27:02,173 --> 01:27:05,053
Speaker 2: we lucky to be able to talk about it? This

1318
01:27:05,093 --> 01:27:07,813
Speaker 2: does not surprise me, as he is apparently a gay

1319
01:27:07,893 --> 01:27:11,573
Speaker 2: man that's somehow has a daughter. So was he once

1320
01:27:11,693 --> 01:27:15,693
Speaker 2: not gay? This basic fundamental part of life of being

1321
01:27:15,693 --> 01:27:18,773
Speaker 2: a father and a husband, And here he is where

1322
01:27:18,813 --> 01:27:22,013
Speaker 2: he can't make up his mind what's what. Surely we

1323
01:27:22,093 --> 01:27:24,733
Speaker 2: can have the ability to learn from history and also

1324
01:27:24,853 --> 01:27:28,573
Speaker 2: observed mistakes taking place elsewhere without the need to have

1325
01:27:28,613 --> 01:27:31,653
Speaker 2: a dialogue about Muslim fanatic immigrants from the Third World.

1326
01:27:32,053 --> 01:27:35,653
Speaker 2: New Zealand deserves better than wishy washy, noncommittal people like

1327
01:27:35,733 --> 01:27:40,733
Speaker 2: Doctor Rainbow in positions such as this. As ever, enjoy

1328
01:27:40,813 --> 01:27:45,853
Speaker 2: your weekly podcasts. Thank you both from cam. I feel

1329
01:27:45,893 --> 01:27:48,133
Speaker 2: I need to comment on that a little and I'm

1330
01:27:48,173 --> 01:27:50,573
Speaker 2: going to say something that I wouldn't normally say. But

1331
01:27:50,773 --> 01:27:57,173
Speaker 2: when I heard that they appointed a new chief commissioner

1332
01:27:57,253 --> 01:28:00,253
Speaker 2: for the Human Rights Organization. I wanted to talk to him,

1333
01:28:00,413 --> 01:28:03,573
Speaker 2: and I contacted somebody who I knew would be able

1334
01:28:03,613 --> 01:28:06,813
Speaker 2: to assist, and he gave me his phone number and

1335
01:28:07,133 --> 01:28:10,373
Speaker 2: I rang him directly, caught him at dinner on Friday

1336
01:28:10,493 --> 01:28:14,853
Speaker 2: beating and asked him if he would come on a podcast,

1337
01:28:15,013 --> 01:28:19,493
Speaker 2: and he readily agreed, and he had a talk with

1338
01:28:19,533 --> 01:28:21,853
Speaker 2: me before we went to air and told me a

1339
01:28:21,893 --> 01:28:24,173
Speaker 2: few laid out a few things that he wanted me

1340
01:28:24,253 --> 01:28:27,173
Speaker 2: to know with regard to this. The major one of

1341
01:28:27,173 --> 01:28:30,333
Speaker 2: which I will mention was that he is not yet appointed.

1342
01:28:31,053 --> 01:28:33,013
Speaker 2: He has not yet had all the discussions that he

1343
01:28:33,093 --> 01:28:36,733
Speaker 2: needs to have with other people, and he didn't want to,

1344
01:28:37,013 --> 01:28:40,173
Speaker 2: shall we say, lay it all out, and he even

1345
01:28:40,213 --> 01:28:42,853
Speaker 2: begged forgiveness for not doing it. I said, you just

1346
01:28:42,853 --> 01:28:45,013
Speaker 2: say what you need to say, and I'll say what

1347
01:28:45,093 --> 01:28:47,173
Speaker 2: I want to say, and we agreed on that and

1348
01:28:47,773 --> 01:28:52,053
Speaker 2: off we went. So I had I suppose something that

1349
01:28:52,253 --> 01:28:55,053
Speaker 2: some of you may object to, and that is I

1350
01:28:55,093 --> 01:28:56,933
Speaker 2: had an understanding of where his head was at at

1351
01:28:56,933 --> 01:29:00,093
Speaker 2: the time. So on occasions I didn't push him. But

1352
01:29:00,253 --> 01:29:03,853
Speaker 2: by the same token, it's not my modus operanda to

1353
01:29:04,053 --> 01:29:07,133
Speaker 2: necessarily do that. I draw at least I try to

1354
01:29:07,213 --> 01:29:10,253
Speaker 2: draw people out and let you make the decisions that

1355
01:29:10,533 --> 01:29:13,133
Speaker 2: you want to make. I mean, you are independent thinkers,

1356
01:29:13,173 --> 01:29:15,293
Speaker 2: after all, you don't need me to bash someone around

1357
01:29:15,333 --> 01:29:18,613
Speaker 2: around the ears to hear what you want to hear.

1358
01:29:19,093 --> 01:29:20,653
Speaker 2: Does that make sense, missus producer?

1359
01:29:20,813 --> 01:29:23,213
Speaker 7: Yes, And I might say that he was charming to

1360
01:29:23,333 --> 01:29:26,653
Speaker 7: deal with and very keen to come on the podcast

1361
01:29:27,013 --> 01:29:29,133
Speaker 7: for that way, We're always grateful.

1362
01:29:28,813 --> 01:29:31,493
Speaker 2: And we will approach him. I don't know, nine months

1363
01:29:31,533 --> 01:29:34,333
Speaker 2: a year down the track and if nothing comes up

1364
01:29:34,373 --> 01:29:37,853
Speaker 2: before that, warrants it and have a further discussion with him.

1365
01:29:37,973 --> 01:29:42,053
Speaker 7: Absolutely late and Alistair says, another excellent podcast with doctor

1366
01:29:42,093 --> 01:29:45,093
Speaker 7: Stephen Rainbow to borrow an age old Rugby quote, and

1367
01:29:45,093 --> 01:29:48,093
Speaker 7: it felt like a podcast of two halves. I feel

1368
01:29:48,213 --> 01:29:51,453
Speaker 7: very positive and quite optimistic for the first half, with

1369
01:29:51,533 --> 01:29:54,293
Speaker 7: Stephen making comments to suggest that he would take on

1370
01:29:54,333 --> 01:29:58,573
Speaker 7: the woke brigade in our tertiary institutions. He would remind

1371
01:29:58,613 --> 01:30:00,893
Speaker 7: them that they have a role to play in societal

1372
01:30:00,973 --> 01:30:05,053
Speaker 7: debate and sharing of ideas, and that their current pouchon

1373
01:30:05,173 --> 01:30:08,293
Speaker 7: for censorship and the shutting down of free speech is

1374
01:30:08,493 --> 01:30:11,533
Speaker 7: a front to the true purpose of a university and

1375
01:30:11,733 --> 01:30:15,613
Speaker 7: quite simply bad for society. I liked the idea that

1376
01:30:15,653 --> 01:30:18,533
Speaker 7: he was looking for his inner hero and hoped he

1377
01:30:18,613 --> 01:30:22,013
Speaker 7: had the hutzpa to do the role justice. Finally we

1378
01:30:22,093 --> 01:30:25,773
Speaker 7: have someone who will take the Wokesters to task. However,

1379
01:30:25,813 --> 01:30:28,493
Speaker 7: the turning point for me started with Stephen's comments that

1380
01:30:28,573 --> 01:30:30,773
Speaker 7: he was so glad he lived in a society where

1381
01:30:30,813 --> 01:30:34,133
Speaker 7: our opinions were not silenced late, and I felt you

1382
01:30:34,253 --> 01:30:37,053
Speaker 7: missed the opportunity to remind him that we have just

1383
01:30:37,413 --> 01:30:41,133
Speaker 7: had six years where opinions that didn't support the narrative

1384
01:30:41,493 --> 01:30:46,373
Speaker 7: were silenced under the totalitarian grasp of Jacinda and her

1385
01:30:46,653 --> 01:30:52,213
Speaker 7: merry band. Doctors were deplatformed and deregistered for simply asking

1386
01:30:52,333 --> 01:30:56,053
Speaker 7: questions of our disastrous COVID response. We had the podium

1387
01:30:56,093 --> 01:30:59,333
Speaker 7: of truth, and as citizens, we were encouraged to dob

1388
01:30:59,373 --> 01:31:02,333
Speaker 7: in our neighbors. Towards the end, when you asked some

1389
01:31:02,533 --> 01:31:08,013
Speaker 7: direct questions, Stephen eloquently sidestepped them. In particular, when asked

1390
01:31:08,053 --> 01:31:10,653
Speaker 7: his opinion on the latest assault of our freedom by

1391
01:31:10,733 --> 01:31:14,773
Speaker 7: our very own government in cahoots with the WHO, whereby

1392
01:31:14,813 --> 01:31:18,973
Speaker 7: we can now be forcibly made to make vaccinations. Stephen

1393
01:31:19,053 --> 01:31:21,573
Speaker 7: felt he needed to read more and understand the subject

1394
01:31:21,653 --> 01:31:24,973
Speaker 7: in greater detail before commenting, and I suppose latent that

1395
01:31:25,013 --> 01:31:28,333
Speaker 7: goes back to your commentary. I mean I was surprised.

1396
01:31:28,373 --> 01:31:30,413
Speaker 7: I think I said to you, he's not going to

1397
01:31:30,493 --> 01:31:33,373
Speaker 7: want to do this interview prior to taking on the job,

1398
01:31:33,453 --> 01:31:36,253
Speaker 7: and I was surprised that he was. So we're very

1399
01:31:36,293 --> 01:31:39,253
Speaker 7: grateful for that. Alistair goes on to say there is

1400
01:31:39,293 --> 01:31:42,253
Speaker 7: no more detail required to come to the only correct

1401
01:31:42,253 --> 01:31:46,573
Speaker 7: position that a forced vaccination is an extreme violation of

1402
01:31:46,613 --> 01:31:50,213
Speaker 7: our human rights, and Alistair says, on the whole, I

1403
01:31:50,253 --> 01:31:52,333
Speaker 7: feel Stephen will be a step in the right direction,

1404
01:31:52,413 --> 01:31:54,373
Speaker 7: but as to whether or not he has the hutzpur

1405
01:31:54,493 --> 01:31:57,893
Speaker 7: and can find his inner hero to confront the woke

1406
01:31:58,053 --> 01:32:01,333
Speaker 7: mind virus that we are plagued with remains to be seen.

1407
01:32:01,933 --> 01:32:03,333
Speaker 7: Thank you for all you were doing.

1408
01:32:04,373 --> 01:32:07,893
Speaker 2: I think that was a fair comment on his partner. Well,

1409
01:32:07,893 --> 01:32:09,373
Speaker 2: I'm not going to look, I'm not going to go

1410
01:32:09,453 --> 01:32:11,893
Speaker 2: into that sort of explanation. You know me well enough.

1411
01:32:11,973 --> 01:32:16,133
Speaker 2: You've known me for years and centuries even, and well

1412
01:32:16,133 --> 01:32:19,533
Speaker 2: at least decades, and you know how I operate. In

1413
01:32:19,613 --> 01:32:24,253
Speaker 2: the main. Having just completed my weekly ritual of Latensmith podcasting.

1414
01:32:24,373 --> 01:32:28,093
Speaker 2: I was left with a couple of impressions. Mister Rainbow

1415
01:32:28,213 --> 01:32:32,813
Speaker 2: has prioritized celebrating diversity over accepting truths or common sense.

1416
01:32:33,533 --> 01:32:37,053
Speaker 2: I don't hold much hope for his tenure being anything

1417
01:32:37,133 --> 01:32:40,573
Speaker 2: but a fully woke conversion experience. Ask him what a

1418
01:32:40,613 --> 01:32:45,533
Speaker 2: woman is in twenty twenty six, behold the indoctrination. I

1419
01:32:45,573 --> 01:32:47,933
Speaker 2: honestly pray that I am wrong for the sake of

1420
01:32:47,973 --> 01:32:52,133
Speaker 2: my Kiwi family, But I know that his human rights

1421
01:32:52,133 --> 01:32:56,693
Speaker 2: commission will be filled with the graduates from courses that

1422
01:32:57,493 --> 01:33:02,333
Speaker 2: your respondent described as his attempted return to university. That

1423
01:33:02,493 --> 01:33:05,213
Speaker 2: was another letter I read last week. Please find below

1424
01:33:05,253 --> 01:33:09,093
Speaker 2: an example of woke detachment from reality. Only attempt to

1425
01:33:09,133 --> 01:33:12,613
Speaker 2: read this article while exercising a firm grip on your key.

1426
01:33:12,613 --> 01:33:17,653
Speaker 2: We common sense. My question, will a queer nuclear weapon explode?

1427
01:33:18,213 --> 01:33:21,813
Speaker 2: Or will it just fizzle? With a lisp clinging on

1428
01:33:21,933 --> 01:33:25,333
Speaker 2: to truth and reality? Your mate in Metri Let's carry

1429
01:33:25,333 --> 01:33:29,293
Speaker 2: from Metri in which a suburb of New Orleans, and

1430
01:33:29,293 --> 01:33:32,733
Speaker 2: he finishes up with his some with his emails these

1431
01:33:32,813 --> 01:33:38,093
Speaker 2: days with they lied about tobacco, mercury, opioid's aluminum telcum

1432
01:33:38,293 --> 01:33:43,413
Speaker 2: sweetness saturated avats, GMO's raw milk, cholesterol, fluoride a, glyphosate.

1433
01:33:44,533 --> 01:33:48,613
Speaker 2: But now they're telling the truth really, and I think

1434
01:33:48,613 --> 01:33:49,213
Speaker 2: it's very clever.

1435
01:33:50,493 --> 01:33:53,013
Speaker 7: Lad and Susan says, first, thank you so much for

1436
01:33:53,053 --> 01:33:57,413
Speaker 7: providing me with connection and intellectual stimulation while I do

1437
01:33:57,493 --> 01:34:01,093
Speaker 7: the menial work of the day. Cooking, housework, and exercise

1438
01:34:01,213 --> 01:34:04,773
Speaker 7: are a pleasure with your podcast as my companion. I

1439
01:34:05,013 --> 01:34:07,653
Speaker 7: just listened to your podcast with the new Human Rights

1440
01:34:07,693 --> 01:34:11,533
Speaker 7: Commissionerief Stephen Rainbow. First, I commend you for having him

1441
01:34:11,533 --> 01:34:14,173
Speaker 7: on your podcast and him for being willing to be

1442
01:34:14,293 --> 01:34:17,653
Speaker 7: on your podcast. At least he's practicing what he preaches

1443
01:34:17,693 --> 01:34:19,893
Speaker 7: when he says we need to have an open dialogue

1444
01:34:19,893 --> 01:34:22,893
Speaker 7: and a free society. I was heartened to hear his

1445
01:34:23,013 --> 01:34:27,693
Speaker 7: statements around fighting anti Semitism in this country, as incidences

1446
01:34:27,733 --> 01:34:30,853
Speaker 7: are definitely on the rise, everything from school bullying of

1447
01:34:30,893 --> 01:34:33,893
Speaker 7: the young to slurs and bottles being thrown from car

1448
01:34:33,933 --> 01:34:38,653
Speaker 7: windows at the old. His firm statements around anti Semitism, however,

1449
01:34:38,893 --> 01:34:42,093
Speaker 7: were a stark juxtaposition of his non answers around what

1450
01:34:42,253 --> 01:34:46,333
Speaker 7: is a human, particularly the status of the unborn. I'm

1451
01:34:46,373 --> 01:34:49,813
Speaker 7: all for celebrating open dialogue, in a tyranny free society,

1452
01:34:49,973 --> 01:34:54,333
Speaker 7: as he suggests, and am anxiously awaiting a future podcast

1453
01:34:54,333 --> 01:34:56,773
Speaker 7: where I get to hear him explain the process and

1454
01:34:56,893 --> 01:35:00,133
Speaker 7: results of an official inquiry into the question of what

1455
01:35:00,333 --> 01:35:03,493
Speaker 7: is a human? Thank you again, says Susan for all

1456
01:35:03,533 --> 01:35:07,733
Speaker 7: of the highly informative and occasionally challenging podcasts.

1457
01:35:08,613 --> 01:35:12,973
Speaker 2: Susan appreciate that very good. Been listening about six years

1458
01:35:13,213 --> 01:35:15,653
Speaker 2: since my mate Kumi YOUU Badger put me on to

1459
01:35:15,733 --> 01:35:18,453
Speaker 2: you left New Zealand in nineteen eighty eight and arrived

1460
01:35:18,493 --> 01:35:22,013
Speaker 2: in the US in nineteen ninety six after the obligatory

1461
01:35:22,053 --> 01:35:27,333
Speaker 2: stint in Blighty, now based in Tennessee. Luggy Man now

1462
01:35:27,373 --> 01:35:30,493
Speaker 2: based in Tennessee, and look forward to your podcasts every week.

1463
01:35:31,013 --> 01:35:33,733
Speaker 2: May I just say at this point rather than at

1464
01:35:33,733 --> 01:35:36,693
Speaker 2: the end, because I'll forget is One of my sons

1465
01:35:36,813 --> 01:35:42,453
Speaker 2: was in Tennessee ten days ago. In fact, he and

1466
01:35:42,493 --> 01:35:44,973
Speaker 2: a couple of mates went on a road trip and

1467
01:35:45,293 --> 01:35:48,653
Speaker 2: included New Orleans and other places and they just loved it.

1468
01:35:49,253 --> 01:35:53,173
Speaker 2: Loved it. Now. Of the many things I admire, one

1469
01:35:53,253 --> 01:35:55,533
Speaker 2: is your willingness to have people on that disagree with you,

1470
01:35:55,853 --> 01:35:59,253
Speaker 2: usually though you hold them tight to the line not

1471
01:35:59,373 --> 01:36:03,693
Speaker 2: being pushy, but firm to explain their position. Mister Rainbow

1472
01:36:03,933 --> 01:36:09,013
Speaker 2: is the consummate politician, a champion of obfuscation. The only

1473
01:36:09,053 --> 01:36:12,213
Speaker 2: thing he actually took a position on was his perspective

1474
01:36:12,373 --> 01:36:15,413
Speaker 2: as a gay man, which he said several times before

1475
01:36:15,413 --> 01:36:19,253
Speaker 2: I stopped counting. Every other topic or question he just ducked.

1476
01:36:19,413 --> 01:36:22,333
Speaker 2: He spoke in vague terms about the importance of freedom

1477
01:36:22,373 --> 01:36:26,213
Speaker 2: of speech, but deftly avoided an actual answer on both

1478
01:36:26,253 --> 01:36:30,653
Speaker 2: the author with the Swashtiger and Kim dot Com. Likewise,

1479
01:36:30,773 --> 01:36:33,853
Speaker 2: he spoke in circles about late term abortion and what

1480
01:36:34,213 --> 01:36:36,973
Speaker 2: is a human? I wish you'd actually asked him what

1481
01:36:37,053 --> 01:36:39,973
Speaker 2: is a woman? Then held his feet to the fire.

1482
01:36:40,573 --> 01:36:43,573
Speaker 2: Did you notice that he did his PhD in forming

1483
01:36:43,613 --> 01:36:47,213
Speaker 2: green parties? And I'm sure you know a colloquialism for

1484
01:36:47,253 --> 01:36:51,333
Speaker 2: greenies is watermelon, because though they are green on the outside,

1485
01:36:51,333 --> 01:36:53,813
Speaker 2: they're red on the inside. The man, no, I think

1486
01:36:53,813 --> 01:36:56,213
Speaker 2: they're mad on the inside. Now, the man is a

1487
01:36:56,253 --> 01:37:00,253
Speaker 2: screaming liberal to use a US term, a lefty by

1488
01:37:00,253 --> 01:37:02,973
Speaker 2: any other name. I don't hold out any hope of

1489
01:37:03,053 --> 01:37:06,813
Speaker 2: him being a net positive in his new role. It'll

1490
01:37:06,813 --> 01:37:10,173
Speaker 2: be more of the same, pandering to special interests and wakeness.

1491
01:37:10,893 --> 01:37:13,693
Speaker 2: Thanks and keep up the good work. Maybe tighten up

1492
01:37:13,733 --> 01:37:18,893
Speaker 2: the screws of notch ki We Jeff the ref in Tennessee.

1493
01:37:19,853 --> 01:37:25,973
Speaker 2: Look again, I just say he deserves a rehearing when

1494
01:37:26,093 --> 01:37:29,773
Speaker 2: he's been on the job for a lengthy period of

1495
01:37:29,933 --> 01:37:33,773
Speaker 2: well long enough anyway, So I'll just leave it at that.

1496
01:37:34,693 --> 01:37:37,693
Speaker 7: Lady, Nellison says, your politeness is just too polite regarding

1497
01:37:37,733 --> 01:37:41,053
Speaker 7: your gracious response to mister Rainbow, which he does not deserve.

1498
01:37:41,453 --> 01:37:44,293
Speaker 7: Did he answer even one question you asked? Let's not

1499
01:37:44,373 --> 01:37:47,253
Speaker 7: have his slippery answers again. He can swirm his way

1500
01:37:47,293 --> 01:37:50,533
Speaker 7: out of everything. What a poor representative he will be

1501
01:37:50,573 --> 01:37:53,053
Speaker 7: when things get tough for the people. He will do

1502
01:37:53,133 --> 01:37:55,093
Speaker 7: to the plaintiff what he did to you. Give a

1503
01:37:55,253 --> 01:37:58,373
Speaker 7: son cunning side step solution which has nothing to do

1504
01:37:58,453 --> 01:38:02,573
Speaker 7: with their request or their plight. Keep on going later,

1505
01:38:02,693 --> 01:38:05,733
Speaker 7: Your truth is vital to us all And that's from Allison.

1506
01:38:06,493 --> 01:38:06,853
Speaker 5: Well.

1507
01:38:06,933 --> 01:38:10,373
Speaker 2: I've saved this one my last, and I've saved it

1508
01:38:10,413 --> 01:38:16,573
Speaker 2: purposely because it expresses my approach to this more than

1509
01:38:17,253 --> 01:38:20,733
Speaker 2: any other. I can't believe that I would say this

1510
01:38:20,973 --> 01:38:25,533
Speaker 2: in my lifetime. I love our new chief human Rights Commissioner. Well,

1511
01:38:25,533 --> 01:38:30,373
Speaker 2: I wouldn't get carried away, but I take the author's intent. Why,

1512
01:38:31,613 --> 01:38:36,053
Speaker 2: Because doctor Stephen Raindos stands for almost everything the leftists

1513
01:38:36,053 --> 01:38:39,813
Speaker 2: and progressives hate. Here is a grateful conservative gay man

1514
01:38:39,893 --> 01:38:45,573
Speaker 2: who believes who believes in free speech, builds alliances, explores

1515
01:38:45,613 --> 01:38:49,813
Speaker 2: differences through difficult conversations, and has a Korean partner who

1516
01:38:49,933 --> 01:38:54,773
Speaker 2: voted against same sex marriage, and values great historical figures

1517
01:38:54,853 --> 01:38:59,493
Speaker 2: like Churchill. In short, this is a thinking gay man

1518
01:38:59,813 --> 01:39:03,573
Speaker 2: the leftists cannot control. In a world where powerful elites

1519
01:39:03,693 --> 01:39:07,053
Speaker 2: presume to lord over a population they deem as dumb,

1520
01:39:07,533 --> 01:39:10,213
Speaker 2: it is truly treshing to hear a human rights commissioner

1521
01:39:10,413 --> 01:39:14,293
Speaker 2: who dares to say, there is great wisdom in ordinary people,

1522
01:39:14,573 --> 01:39:16,693
Speaker 2: and we need to pay far more attention to that.

1523
01:39:17,053 --> 01:39:19,773
Speaker 2: I find it ironic that some of the most principled

1524
01:39:19,813 --> 01:39:24,773
Speaker 2: and influential conservatives today happen to be gay men, Douglas Murray,

1525
01:39:24,933 --> 01:39:29,373
Speaker 2: Dave Ruben, Stephen Rainbow being just three examples. This steady

1526
01:39:29,413 --> 01:39:31,373
Speaker 2: exodus of some of the best people from the left

1527
01:39:31,413 --> 01:39:34,853
Speaker 2: goes to show how far left the left has become,

1528
01:39:35,173 --> 01:39:37,413
Speaker 2: and then goes on only just a few days ago,

1529
01:39:37,693 --> 01:39:40,933
Speaker 2: RFK Junior, who left the Democrats to become an independent,

1530
01:39:40,973 --> 01:39:44,933
Speaker 2: suspended his presidential campaign, and went on to endorse Trump.

1531
01:39:45,533 --> 01:39:50,093
Speaker 2: Imagine that a Kennedy leaving the Democrats and endorsing a Republican.

1532
01:39:50,973 --> 01:39:54,533
Speaker 2: RFK Junior pinpointed the whole problem with the Democrat Party

1533
01:39:54,573 --> 01:39:57,693
Speaker 2: in his exit speech. I quote, how did the Democratic

1534
01:39:57,733 --> 01:40:02,093
Speaker 2: Party choose a candidate that has never done an interview

1535
01:40:02,533 --> 01:40:06,933
Speaker 2: or debate during the entire election cycle. They did it

1536
01:40:07,013 --> 01:40:11,253
Speaker 2: by weaponizing the government agencies. They did it by abandoning democracy.

1537
01:40:11,533 --> 01:40:14,853
Speaker 2: They did it by suing the opposition, and by disenfranchising

1538
01:40:14,893 --> 01:40:19,093
Speaker 2: American voters. And my favorite line from RFK in his

1539
01:40:19,213 --> 01:40:23,053
Speaker 2: speech is this, Ultimately, the only thing that will save

1540
01:40:23,093 --> 01:40:26,133
Speaker 2: our country and our children is if we choose to

1541
01:40:26,213 --> 01:40:29,733
Speaker 2: love our kids more than we hate each other. The

1542
01:40:29,813 --> 01:40:33,773
Speaker 2: answer is in the loving, jealous, protective arms of the

1543
01:40:33,853 --> 01:40:38,573
Speaker 2: nuclear family. Long may the Awakening continue. And I have

1544
01:40:38,693 --> 01:40:43,093
Speaker 2: to I have to agree with virtually everything the author said.

1545
01:40:43,613 --> 01:40:45,253
Speaker 2: Thanks Jin Layton.

1546
01:40:45,333 --> 01:40:50,333
Speaker 7: My last one from Susanna Leighton. Really enjoy your podcasts,

1547
01:40:50,373 --> 01:40:52,773
Speaker 7: but always wonder why you and missus producer don't go

1548
01:40:52,813 --> 01:40:55,773
Speaker 7: and live in Italy. I recall, as a listener of

1549
01:40:55,813 --> 01:40:59,613
Speaker 7: your former nine to twelve gig. You loved Italy so much.

1550
01:41:00,093 --> 01:41:03,013
Speaker 7: I'm in my late fifties and really thinking about packing

1551
01:41:03,093 --> 01:41:06,293
Speaker 7: up and going. And I often think, whilst listening to

1552
01:41:06,333 --> 01:41:10,133
Speaker 7: your podcast, why you are still in news? Answer that

1553
01:41:10,173 --> 01:41:10,773
Speaker 7: one later.

1554
01:41:11,293 --> 01:41:16,293
Speaker 2: It's called feminist power. I am prevented. Well, i've got shackles,

1555
01:41:16,773 --> 01:41:17,253
Speaker 2: he does.

1556
01:41:17,933 --> 01:41:21,493
Speaker 7: I as somebody who grew up in the Northern Hemisphere.

1557
01:41:21,813 --> 01:41:24,933
Speaker 7: It's beautiful and I loved it, and I traveled a lot,

1558
01:41:25,693 --> 01:41:29,333
Speaker 7: but I think it's sometimes it's only people who've grown

1559
01:41:29,413 --> 01:41:31,173
Speaker 7: up over in that part of the world realized how

1560
01:41:31,253 --> 01:41:35,413
Speaker 7: lucky we are down here. It's a bit broken, but

1561
01:41:35,973 --> 01:41:39,613
Speaker 7: it's a beautiful place and we've got kids here.

1562
01:41:39,733 --> 01:41:42,413
Speaker 2: So I didn't I say to you the other day

1563
01:41:42,533 --> 01:41:45,893
Speaker 2: after well, during the walk that we were on that

1564
01:41:46,013 --> 01:41:49,093
Speaker 2: I noticed only over the last week or so, being

1565
01:41:49,133 --> 01:41:53,333
Speaker 2: in various parts of the city, the number of aliens

1566
01:41:54,413 --> 01:41:56,613
Speaker 2: who are footing it around here.

1567
01:41:56,693 --> 01:41:58,693
Speaker 7: Well, thankfully they're Peter be coming back.

1568
01:41:59,333 --> 01:42:02,773
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not sure whether some of them. I mean,

1569
01:42:02,813 --> 01:42:06,173
Speaker 2: there was a couple sitting on a bench, seated, but

1570
01:42:06,293 --> 01:42:09,973
Speaker 2: down by the beach the other day, the day that

1571
01:42:10,013 --> 01:42:12,493
Speaker 2: I said this, And this is actually what prompted me

1572
01:42:12,533 --> 01:42:14,293
Speaker 2: now that I think about it to make the comment

1573
01:42:14,373 --> 01:42:19,653
Speaker 2: to you, and I said, what what language was he speaking?

1574
01:42:19,653 --> 01:42:21,053
Speaker 2: Do you think? And what did you say?

1575
01:42:21,693 --> 01:42:23,733
Speaker 7: I thought it might have been we weren't near enough

1576
01:42:23,773 --> 01:42:25,333
Speaker 7: to them. I thought it might have been French.

1577
01:42:25,533 --> 01:42:29,013
Speaker 2: I thought I was leading more Italian and were probably

1578
01:42:29,013 --> 01:42:31,973
Speaker 2: both wrong. Point being that they looked like they were

1579
01:42:32,053 --> 01:42:37,213
Speaker 2: right at home and they weren't going anywhere, and there

1580
01:42:37,213 --> 01:42:41,213
Speaker 2: were lots and lots of people of different nationalities. I

1581
01:42:41,253 --> 01:42:43,853
Speaker 2: was in the city one day during the week, walking

1582
01:42:43,933 --> 01:42:47,653
Speaker 2: up the lower portion of Albert Street, and I just

1583
01:42:47,733 --> 01:42:53,173
Speaker 2: kept seeing people who who were not natural kiwi shall

1584
01:42:53,213 --> 01:42:57,173
Speaker 2: we say, and hearing them talk in there, in there,

1585
01:42:57,213 --> 01:42:59,573
Speaker 2: all in their home tongue.

1586
01:43:00,253 --> 01:43:04,373
Speaker 7: I wish I had a dollar, however, for every time

1587
01:43:04,813 --> 01:43:06,653
Speaker 7: we were on the beach and I would say to

1588
01:43:06,693 --> 01:43:09,453
Speaker 7: you late and isn't it a fantastic day? How lucky

1589
01:43:09,453 --> 01:43:12,093
Speaker 7: are we? And you'd say, I wish we were in Italy.

1590
01:43:12,293 --> 01:43:14,333
Speaker 2: No, I did not say that. I said I'd rather

1591
01:43:14,373 --> 01:43:16,893
Speaker 2: be in Italy anyway.

1592
01:43:17,213 --> 01:43:18,173
Speaker 7: I love every day.

1593
01:43:18,373 --> 01:43:23,733
Speaker 2: It's been a regular quote, missus, producer, take these chains

1594
01:43:23,733 --> 01:43:24,493
Speaker 2: from my ankles.

1595
01:43:25,253 --> 01:43:27,253
Speaker 7: I'm off to the beach. Thank you so much.

1596
01:43:27,133 --> 01:43:29,693
Speaker 1: Later, Leighton Smith.

1597
01:43:31,853 --> 01:43:34,093
Speaker 2: And that will take us out for podcast two hundred

1598
01:43:34,133 --> 01:43:36,453
Speaker 2: and fifty three and don't forget. If you'd like to

1599
01:43:36,453 --> 01:43:40,853
Speaker 2: correspond Layton at NEWSTALKZIB dot co dot nz or Carolyn

1600
01:43:41,013 --> 01:43:44,853
Speaker 2: with a y at Newstalk zb dot co dot enz.

1601
01:43:45,533 --> 01:43:47,573
Speaker 2: As you could tell, we love getting your mail and

1602
01:43:47,813 --> 01:43:50,613
Speaker 2: we don't mind a bit of criticism, So go for

1603
01:43:50,693 --> 01:43:53,933
Speaker 2: your life. Nothing else to say this week except thank

1604
01:43:53,973 --> 01:43:56,093
Speaker 2: you for listening and we shall talk soon.

1605
01:44:03,973 --> 01:44:08,533
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from newstalkzied B. Listen live on

1606
01:44:08,573 --> 01:44:11,493
Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever

1607
01:44:11,573 --> 01:44:14,133
Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio