WEBVTT - NZ is still killing too many workers 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.400 Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:16.960 a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Fifteen 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:21.680 years ago today, November nineteen, twenty ten. Twenty nine men 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.040 went to work and never returned home. 0:00:24.560 --> 0:00:26.880 Ignored all the science and things are wrong. 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:29.920 The pirate of mind I ever mentioned intended board. 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:34.360 There's no legal accountability, so that there was no risk 0:00:34.400 --> 0:00:36.440 in them doing what they did except losing their essay. 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:40.160 Here has a looking down air. 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:43.919 I feel pretty high, but. 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.880 Just get cheat to bring her down and puntry the 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:50.360 other door. 0:00:50.440 --> 0:00:50.599 Door. 0:00:57.920 --> 0:00:59.520 Hello, Milton, come in, Milton. 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:04.600 Yeah's that Malcolm? 0:01:04.640 --> 0:01:06.560 Sorry, Malfo is actually looking for Milton. 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:08.640 He's one of the contractors. 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:11.120 Yeah. 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:12.000 What's the second mean? 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:17.160 Uh negative, I'll just have a look in the contract book. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:18.640 I think you know what you mean. Is that the 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:19.640 one guy with a mistake? 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.240 Yeah, you got a mastache? Heah, that's the one he's 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:23.880 doing the four inch pipeworks. 0:01:24.600 --> 0:01:58.160 Yeah. Hello, Sparky's hello underground, any Sparkys. The Park River 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:02.080 mine explosion shocks New Zealand and the world and resulted 0:02:02.120 --> 0:02:06.440 in three inquiries, a new regulator and new laws. But 0:02:06.560 --> 0:02:10.280 despite to all of this, new research shows New Zealand 0:02:10.360 --> 0:02:15.520 workers are more likely to die than Australia or the UK. 0:02:16.160 --> 0:02:20.000 Today on the front page Victoria, University of Wellington workplace 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:23.120 and Health and Safety lecturer doctor Chris Peace is with 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.320 us to discuss whether we've learned anything from what happened 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:35.600 at Pike River. So Chris, tell me some statistics about 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:38.560 workplace safety in New Zealand. How are we going? 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:44.600 Not very well is the short answer. If we compare 0:02:44.639 --> 0:02:49.400 ourselves to other countries and major trading partners. For example, 0:02:51.400 --> 0:02:55.200 generally we say that we're killing four times more people 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.079 in New Zealand than in the UK. Now that's got 0:02:59.120 --> 0:03:03.000 to be in the context of per one hundred thousand workers, 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:07.560 and we killed twice as many people as Australia. Again 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:13.520 per one hundred thousand workers, we're somewhere around about twenty 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:19.160 fifth in the OECD, So Holland I think is number 0:03:19.200 --> 0:03:23.400 one in terms of not killing workers. The UK is 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:27.760 around number four and we're number twenty five. So we're 0:03:27.800 --> 0:03:32.480 not doing very well if we compare ourselves internationally, and 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:36.040 that's crossing the country somewhere in the order of five 0:03:36.120 --> 0:03:43.280 point four billion dollars per year because of death injuries, rehabilitation, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.480 compensation and so on. So we're talking something that's a 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:49.800 big problem. 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.360 Why why are we so bad at it? 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:58.640 Well, I'll have to say you can probably tell from 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:01.600 the accent that I will born here, but I've been 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:07.360 here neither Chris. I got here in nineteen eighty and 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:09.800 there are a lot of things that I discovered then, 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:14.000 and on reflection, I think I can see some of 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:16.680 the really good things about New Zealand as well as 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.160 some things that get in the way of workplace health 0:04:19.160 --> 0:04:24.560 and safety. Because of ACC. Well, I've got to say 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.799 I think ACC is one of the most brilliant things 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:32.040 that New Zealand has. Because of ACC, employers don't have 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:35.200 to worry about being sued by workers if they are 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:40.080 injured or worse killed at work. But that means the 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:45.599 low fault liability side opens up employers to not having 0:04:45.680 --> 0:04:49.160 to worry too much, not so much about workplace health 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:54.320 and safety. So since fifty plus years it's I think 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.920 that's fifty two years now since ACC came in. The 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:02.680 imperative that I grew up with in the UK of 0:05:02.960 --> 0:05:06.560 if you're injured at work, you sue and your employer 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.200 if they lose a case in court, your employer has 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.400 to pay. Those imperatives don't exist so much in New Zealand. 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:18.960 And when we did the deal, when we changed from workers' 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:23.240 compensation to ACC, part of the deal was that New 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:27.680 Zealand would have a strong regulatory system, and so we 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:33.359 got ACC, but we didn't get the strong regulatory system 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:37.240 that led us to eventually the Health and Safety and 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.880 Employment Act. Hell of a lot of time was spent 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:43.880 arguing about whether something was a hazard or a significant hazard. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:50.760 What was the difference perception. One person's significant hazard was 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.919 somebody else's just minor hazard. So we got all the 0:05:54.960 --> 0:06:00.240 way through to fifteen years ago with Pack River, just 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:04.240 before Pike River. We with hindsight, yes, but it was 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.320 pretty obvious to people on the inside. We had a 0:06:07.360 --> 0:06:11.600 system where the then Department of Labor Health and Safety 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:16.640 team was under resourced, underfunded. They if they send an 0:06:16.640 --> 0:06:20.680 inspector to Pike River, they didn't have enough expenses that 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.560 they could claim to stay overnight and actually go to 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:27.680 the mind to see what was wrong or what was right. 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:32.560 So we lost twenty nine men up Pike River, and 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.120 the whole series of reports the Royal Commission and people 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.279 saying yeah, we need to do better. When we kill 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:44.680 or seriously injure a worker, they suffer, but so does 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:49.599 their family and their far out and their co workers, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:55.520 and it just it ripples through the economy. We got 0:06:55.800 --> 0:07:01.240 work Safe no longer part of what became Ministry of Business, 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:05.760 Innovation and Employment, and we were promised that underpinning the 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.920 new Act would be a whole lot of new approaches 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:15.520 to regulatory system, the regulatory system, and that would include 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:21.880 a proof codes of practice, up to date guidance, new regulations, 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:27.400 not more regulations, but new regulations that recognized how things 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:33.080 have changed over the years in the economy and New Zealand. Unfortunately, 0:07:33.360 --> 0:07:37.880 most of that never happened. The draft regulations on plant 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:43.280 and equipment were consulted on, extensively, agreed to be jolly good, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.920 well written, up to date, modern, and then there was 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:52.840 this long silence. They just quietly got shelved change of government. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.520 Along that journey, of course, we also had Fakari when 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:02.200 twenty two people died at on for and then others subsequently, 0:08:03.080 --> 0:08:05.560 there was a major distraction in there for Work Safe, 0:08:06.640 --> 0:08:10.840 doing the investigation and taking the prosecution. It absorbed not 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:14.680 just I think it was about fifteen million dollars in cost, 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.000 but also a hell of a lot of time. So 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:21.560 we've got a new government and the Minister would like 0:08:21.640 --> 0:08:29.240 to reform the system. But to do what And this 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.440 is something I'm writing about at the moment for the 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:37.559 fifteenth anniversary of Pike River. What do we get instead 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:41.640 of what we've got? Well, there's a consensus view that 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:46.800 the Act is perfectly good. In my view, we could 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.839 rename the Act from Health and Safety at Work Act 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:54.000 to the Wealth and a Safety at Workout, because what 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:57.959 it's actually doing is talking about how a business should 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:02.959 be managed, how it should be operate rated, including getting directors, 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:08.160 the officers of the business involved in how it is functioning. 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:13.800 They do. Directors do that already most of the time 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:15.120 for the financial side. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:19.520 But they have no culpability, do they? And that's the kicker. 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:24.000 Oh they do now? They do now. Section forty four 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:29.280 sets up the duty of due diligence of officers In 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.240 New Zealand. We've had a few court cases, including an 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:35.520 important one last year when Maritime New Zealand, one of 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.640 the regulartory agentsies prosecuted the ex Chief Executive of Ports 0:09:40.640 --> 0:09:45.600 of Auckland. He was convicted and the judge's decision is 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.240 or should be, almost mandatory reading for every director in 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:56.480 every business in New Zealand. But I don't know that 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.920 we're really getting the message across. I think it's unfor 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.520 fortunate that we talk about the law as if it's 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.720 a cost for business. It isn't. And what I just said, 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.280 if you want to think it through, carefully read the 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:13.600 Act and realize why it should be renamed the Wealth 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.080 and Safety at Work Act. It's about how to run 0:10:16.160 --> 0:10:21.640 businesses better, more effectively without wasting money on workers who 0:10:21.720 --> 0:10:25.480 aren't there because they're sick or injured or worse dead. 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:29.000 Is all of those on costs and the five point 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:33.680 four billion we could eliminate them with effective health and safety. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.560 So that's my big take on what's wrong. 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.520 All right? We have so many one members approved by 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.959 Pike Robber. Some of the guys who are down their 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.200 mind at the moment are our members. One of our 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:48.920 delegates is down there, so we have a pretty clish 0:10:49.000 --> 0:10:52.440 interest yet expect. But also we represent miners generally, and 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.080 when it's something like this happens, people forget which mining 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:58.000 company they work for. What they all pull together. This 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.880 is a this is a dreadful time or the families 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:04.000 of those guys who are down there, and it's type 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:06.520 for everybody to rally around and provide support. So we're 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:08.200 down here to make sure that that's happening, that the 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.080 families are supported, that the other miners are kept in 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:15.720 touch with what's going on, and that people are assisted 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:18.440 to get through this this agonizing time that we wait 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:22.200 to get the rescue BEFO underway. Once that happens, then 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.080 obviously the next thing is to ask the questions about 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.080 what happened, why happened, and at some point we need 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:30.240 to be involved in that as well. 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.200 That this is do you have any safety concerns at 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:33.679 Pike River? 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:36.480 Well, we know that Pike River as a company has 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:38.720 The've got an active health and safety committee, the union 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.640 is well represented on it. There's been nothing unusual come 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.840 out of that that what have led us to the 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.880 sort of things that have happened here. So there's nothing 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:53.120 unusual about Pike River or this mine that we've been 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.600 particularly concerned about, which is why I think then when 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:58.280 we get through the rescue effort, the questions then need 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.720 to be asked. You know, what did happen and why 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:02.440 did it happen and if anything could have been done 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:03.000 to prevent it. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:06.240 How has this affected the mining community both here and 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:07.080 generally in. 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:11.360 You I think listen miners Barren. You know there are 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.640 understand there's a shadow goes up every spine because the 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:19.360 underground miners, they know that every day, every time they 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.800 go underground, anything like this could happen. It could have 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.280 happened to them, So they brought together pretty tightly. We've 0:12:25.280 --> 0:12:28.000 had some amazing messages of support, not just from New 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.320 Zealand but from around the world, from mining unions around 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:34.000 the world. We've been conveying those messages to our members 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.960 down here of support, and I think it's it's that 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:40.439 sort of stuff, that solidarity that helps get the mining 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.480 community and their families through an incident like this. 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:46.440 What are the most crucial lessons for New Zealand and 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:49.480 what should we have learned from the Pike River mine 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.359 disaster now if we're looking back fifteen years. 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:58.120 On, I think the two big things were it's all 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:04.439 very good to wish for less regulatory interventions, but sometimes 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:10.000 you really do have to have strong intervention. You really 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:14.080 do need to make sure that people understand if they 0:13:14.440 --> 0:13:22.239 breach the law negligently, even grossly negligently, then the regulatory agency, 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.360 mostly Work Safe, will have the power to take them 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.720 to court. I think we need to increase the fins. 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.880 I was back in the UK when the British changed 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.720 finds to unlimited if it went into the Crown Court, 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.839 a bit like sending the case to the High Court 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:44.760 in New Zealand. That puts shockwaves through New zeal As, sorry, 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:48.880 through the British industry. And yes there've been multimillion pound 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:53.440 fines in Britain, but it's pushed businesses to thinking seriously. 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.440 So make sure that we've got the right fines and 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:00.880 penalties in place, including a charge of manslaughter. And there 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:03.960 have been a few people in New Zealand who have 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:09.400 grossly negligently allowed the deaths of workers. So we need 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:14.000 the deterrents I think we need I keep looping back 0:14:14.040 --> 0:14:16.120 to this. We need to get up, to grow up 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:19.720 and start thinking of the Health and Safety Work Act 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:24.160 as an impediment to business, to start thinking how important 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:29.760 that is for better business. The second thing that we 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:35.240 need is directors and officers. In the legislation, an officer 0:14:35.360 --> 0:14:38.920 is a director, the chief executive or somebody else who's 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:44.360 got significant influence in a business. I think a lot 0:14:44.400 --> 0:14:50.560 of businesses, big businesses where the directors are now asking questions, 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:56.120 have understood what needs to happen. I'm not sure that 0:14:56.520 --> 0:15:00.720 everybody has really got the message. So so there's a 0:15:00.760 --> 0:15:03.840 need to get the message over to all directors. How 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:08.600 do we do that? Every year a director has to 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.800 tell the company's office that yes, there's still a director 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:17.240 and yes these their contact details. Perfectly simple for a 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.680 joined up approach across government for the company's office to 0:15:21.720 --> 0:15:26.080 send all such directors an email reminding them, and the 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:30.920 emails written by WorkSafe a reminder of their responsibilities. Under 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.480 the Health and Safety Work Act. Every business does a 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:41.440 GST return, so it's all of the contact details are 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:45.960 known to ID and they could also send an email 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.880 on behalf of work Safe, so there's no breach of 0:15:48.880 --> 0:15:52.600 the Privacy Act here. They could send an email from 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.920 work Safe to all businesses reminding them of their responsibilities, 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:00.800 and then there's no excuse. Nobody can say, but I 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.960 didn't know. I didn't know you had an email that 0:16:04.120 --> 0:16:08.320 told you, and the the one through I r D 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:11.200 could because the I r D knows the sort of 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.440 business are involved in. It could point the direction, point 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.000 you in the direction of better more informed advice on 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:23.320 the work safe website. So what else could we cover? 0:16:23.480 --> 0:16:28.800 What else do we need to do? I think that 0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:32.080 would if my wish list, you know, if if Father 0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:35.800 Christmas was a real person and was in the in 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:39.560 the game of delivering my wish list for Christmas, that 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:44.440 those things would be it. I'm not sure whether the 0:16:44.480 --> 0:16:48.240 minister is listening. I don't think the minister has read 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.000 the report that several of us wrote that the Public 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:56.520 Health Communications Center published last week. She said that she 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:02.040 hasn't read it. Will this government listen? Will they realize 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.320 that we're killing too many people at work, We're making 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:11.080 too many people sick because of work, and it's costing 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.760 US five and a half billion a year. 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:17.679 Do you think that they're more they're more preoccupied with 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:20.720 cutting red tape. 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:25.320 Yeah, but sometimes red tape is there for a reason. 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:28.520 Quite right. And when you were talking before, actually I 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:30.560 don't know why I thought of it, but I thought 0:17:30.560 --> 0:17:34.400 about seat belts. When seat belts came a mandatory wearing 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:37.080 of seat belts, there were people there were riots, and 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:39.320 you know, not riots in the street, but I remember, 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.359 you know, doing vox There were vox pops on television 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:45.960 and like, what do you think about wearing seat belts? 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:46.120 Oh? 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:48.359 Well, I think it's ridiculous, and like, what do you feel? Well, 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:53.280 they're so uncomfortable. But there's now, years later, solid research 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.800 to suggest that if you're wearing a seat belt, you 0:17:55.840 --> 0:17:59.680 are x times less likely to die. And that gives 0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:05.240 me the impression of yes. Sometimes the fire alarms at 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:09.160 work a bit annoying to leave my desk, go downstairs, 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.199 get ticked off by the fire warden, come back up, 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.720 knowing that it's a fire drill. But in the end 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:19.960 it's all going to make sense, isn't it. 0:18:20.320 --> 0:18:23.719 The minimum that it does is make you aware of 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:27.199 this being an aspect of workplace health and safety. It's 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.720 a fire drill, but it's health and safety. I want 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:34.960 to get to something that before. Maybe you do road cones. 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.200 Why on earth do we have so many road cones? 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.040 Originally the idea was that you marked out places that 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:47.640 people should not drive. Why wouldn't you want to drive there? Well, 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:51.359 because there's a road worker doing something improving the road, 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.480 repairing the road, putting in new pipes, whatever it is, 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:58.359 and it's not very nice to run over people who 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.200 are working on the road, so we divert the traffic 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.480 round road cones and sometimes we put somebody with one 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:10.199 of those lollipop signs or better still, traffic lights. Do 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:12.560 we have too many road cones? Yeah, we went too 0:19:12.600 --> 0:19:15.760 mad with them at one stage. I think it's about 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:19.760 three years ago now the industry started to think about 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:25.360 how to improve high safety, the work on the road safety, 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.880 and that they've gone too far with road cones are 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:34.159 just something that you wave around, a sort of shroud 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:38.920 waving thing. We weren't doing it well enough. So we've 0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.520 now arrived at a point where there's a risk based 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:47.280 approach to highway working. It's going to take time and 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:51.639 money to introduce that and make it safer for everybody 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:56.119 on the roads and to have fewer road cones but 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:02.920 also better temporary traffic management on the roads. Was that 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.679 because the Minister got grumpy about road cones and introduced 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.720 the hotline to report road cones? Now, the industry was 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:14.000 doing it already, and I think what the Minister needs 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.840 to do is pay attention to that as an object 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:22.040 lesson and how to encourage business to do it. Itself. 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:25.840 Two years after one of New Zealand's worst mining disasters, 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:29.480 a reporter has revealed it could have been prevented. Twenty 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.760 nine miners died in an explosion at the Pike with 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:35.920 a coal mine. Investigators found there were twenty one warnings 0:20:35.920 --> 0:20:38.520 of excess meeting gas in the weeks before it happened 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:42.439 that were either not noticed or ignored. The report does 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.960 not say what sparked the explosion, but suggests it could 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.960 have been an electrical fault. The miners are thought to 0:20:48.000 --> 0:20:53.080 have died almost instantly. The bigger picture the investigators described 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.520 is damning. They say there was a production before safety 0:20:56.520 --> 0:21:01.000 culture at the mine, an unsuitable ventilation shaft, only one exit, 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.560 and no planning for a coal mining emergency. And even 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.520 though the mining company was young and inexperienced, the Department 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.679 of Labour allowed it to operate without adequate monitoring. 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.560 Did you have enough staff for health and safety? 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:18.719 No good? You ask for more staff is constantly. 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:22.360 The Minister for Labor, Kate Wilkinson, has stepped down. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:25.640 The The Partner of Labor for which she was the Minister, 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.440 could have potentially prevented these mean losing their lives. It's 0:21:30.640 --> 0:21:34.120 possible that if they had done their job better, it's 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.040 possible that ase men might not have died. 0:21:36.920 --> 0:21:39.919 The Pike River Company has long since gone bankrupt and 0:21:40.040 --> 0:21:44.160 is not defending itself against nine labor violations. The former 0:21:44.240 --> 0:21:47.159 chief executive, Peter Whistle, is pleading not guilty to twelve 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.840 health and safety violations, and an Australian contractor has been 0:21:51.920 --> 0:21:56.359 fined for providing a faulty meeting detector. The families of 0:21:56.400 --> 0:21:58.960 those who died have called for the Pike River management 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:03.720 to face criminal tis chargers. That's unlikely to happen, but 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:08.000 the inquiry has recommended major improvements in workplace safety regulation 0:22:08.440 --> 0:22:12.160 to prevent similar disasters in the future. Kroen I Malone 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:12.760 ol Jazeera. 0:22:14.400 --> 0:22:18.800 You mentioned before about corporate manslaughter charges. Now we don't 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:21.280 have them here in New Zealand. Both the UK and 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:25.920 Australia have added that corporate manslaughter for recklessness causing death 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:35.280 at work? What is it and why should we. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.960 Well, you've almost hit the nail on the had there. 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:40.639 Corporate man's slaughter would be a charge that somebody grossly 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:50.800 negligently did not do something or did something. So I'm 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:53.880 thinking of something that an email that came in yesterday 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:56.800 from work Safe. I think I get pretty much all 0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:59.479 of their emails, and some of them I read, some 0:22:59.520 --> 0:23:02.840 of them might glance at and delete. This one was 0:23:02.880 --> 0:23:07.840 about a case where somebody was delivering building materials to 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:12.320 a site with a machine that could lift and take 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:17.120 them through. Unfortunately, they lifted too high and hit overhead 0:23:17.160 --> 0:23:22.120 power lines and the operator of the plant, the mobile plant, 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:30.280 was killed. I don't want to anticipate what the investigation 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.720 has shown on what works they would want to do. 0:23:32.760 --> 0:23:35.840 But if I now generalize from that, if you know 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:40.280 that workers are going to be operating machinery in the 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:44.280 vicinity of overhead power lines eleven thousand volt power lines, 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:49.560 and you don't do things to anticipate the risk of 0:23:49.800 --> 0:23:53.480 hitting those power lines or simply coming too close to them, 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:57.560 and the power line is discharging and killing the worker, 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:02.600 if you don't anticipate that, when we know it's one 0:24:02.600 --> 0:24:07.040 of these stupid everybody knows if they work in the sector, 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:10.600 that that will kill if you don't anticipate that. In 0:24:10.640 --> 0:24:14.720 my book, that's gross negligence, and that's language that I 0:24:14.720 --> 0:24:17.440 grew up on originally in the UK before I came 0:24:17.480 --> 0:24:24.560 to New Zealand simple negligence. Now maybe not the manslaughter charge. 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:29.679 It simple negligence where somebody strained their back because they 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:34.640 tried to lift something that was too heavy. That's one 0:24:34.680 --> 0:24:38.160 of the biggest costs to the country musculos collegial disorders. 0:24:38.680 --> 0:24:43.960 But gross negligence is relatively rare. It's relatively rare, but 0:24:44.359 --> 0:24:47.200 an awful lot of the cases that work Safe takes. 0:24:47.400 --> 0:24:53.080 And I've read the district court decisions of probably two 0:24:53.160 --> 0:24:56.600 or three hundred out of the one thousand since the 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:59.679 Health and Safety at Work pack came in, and there 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:01.719 couple of one hundred that I think would have been 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:05.679 gross negligence where a manslaughter charge could have been taken. 0:25:06.800 --> 0:25:10.000 What does it mean in practice? If somebody is prosecuted 0:25:10.040 --> 0:25:15.320 in Australia or the UK, the prosecutor has to prove 0:25:16.160 --> 0:25:20.200 what I call gross negligence. They have to prove that somebody, 0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:23.399 there's a lovely old English legal work, that there was 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:28.080 a contumious disregard for the safety of the worker, it 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:34.000 was beyond disgraceful. If they convinced the court that that's 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:37.399 the case, then there could be a prison sentence or 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:41.439 there could be a very large fine for corporate manslaughter, 0:25:43.280 --> 0:25:47.280 and that would be different from in the UK the 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:52.000 unlimited fines that exist under the Health and Safety Workout, 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:58.760 the British Health and Safety Workout. Is it needed? I 0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:01.159 think it is needed here in New Zealand because we 0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:05.760 have had cases where a corporate manslaughter of charge should 0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:12.560 have been laid but couldn't. There's another bit of legislation 0:26:12.640 --> 0:26:17.200 that's missing, and that's disqualification of directors. You can disqualified 0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:20.959 directors in the UK. I'm not sure about Australia, but 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:25.160 certainly in the UK if they have again, if they 0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:29.600 as a director have done something that caused death or 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:33.639 serious injury, disqualify them for five years. But again the 0:26:33.680 --> 0:26:37.440 prosecutor has to prove to the court that's needed. This 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:40.520 is an awful lot of me wanting to sound like 0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:45.520 a nasty chap. It's probably because forty odd years ago 0:26:45.600 --> 0:26:47.800 I worked as a regular cheap person. I was an 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:51.919 inspector in the UK. I think we can do better 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:57.439 with encouragement and getting businesses to understand that we're talking 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:01.439 about improved profitability. But there are some people in New 0:27:01.520 --> 0:27:06.600 Zealand who really should be taken out of being directors 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:12.520 because they have been recidivists. And I won't name anybody 0:27:12.880 --> 0:27:17.320 in a podcast like this, but there are recidivists and 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:22.920 they should be disqualified as directors, and in some circumstances 0:27:23.040 --> 0:27:25.640