1 00:00:06,000 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Fifteen 3 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: years ago today, November nineteen, twenty ten. Twenty nine men 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: went to work and never returned home. 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 2: Ignored all the science and things are wrong. 6 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 3: The pirate of mind I ever mentioned intended board. 7 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: There's no legal accountability, so that there was no risk 8 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: in them doing what they did except losing their essay. 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: Here has a looking down air. 10 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:43,919 Speaker 1: I feel pretty high, but. 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: Just get cheat to bring her down and puntry the 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 2: other door. 13 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 4: Door. 14 00:00:57,920 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 2: Hello, Milton, come in, Milton. 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 4: Yeah's that Malcolm? 16 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: Sorry, Malfo is actually looking for Milton. 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 4: He's one of the contractors. 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. 19 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 4: What's the second mean? 20 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 3: Uh negative, I'll just have a look in the contract book. 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 3: I think you know what you mean. Is that the 22 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:19,640 Speaker 3: one guy with a mistake? 23 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you got a mastache? Heah, that's the one he's 24 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 2: doing the four inch pipeworks. 25 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. Hello, Sparky's hello underground, any Sparkys. The Park River 26 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: mine explosion shocks New Zealand and the world and resulted 27 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: in three inquiries, a new regulator and new laws. But 28 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: despite to all of this, new research shows New Zealand 29 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: workers are more likely to die than Australia or the UK. 30 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: Today on the front page Victoria, University of Wellington workplace 31 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: and Health and Safety lecturer doctor Chris Peace is with 32 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: us to discuss whether we've learned anything from what happened 33 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: at Pike River. So Chris, tell me some statistics about 34 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: workplace safety in New Zealand. How are we going? 35 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 2: Not very well is the short answer. If we compare 36 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 2: ourselves to other countries and major trading partners. For example, 37 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 2: generally we say that we're killing four times more people 38 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,079 Speaker 2: in New Zealand than in the UK. Now that's got 39 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: to be in the context of per one hundred thousand workers, 40 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: and we killed twice as many people as Australia. Again 41 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 2: per one hundred thousand workers, we're somewhere around about twenty 42 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 2: fifth in the OECD, So Holland I think is number 43 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: one in terms of not killing workers. The UK is 44 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 2: around number four and we're number twenty five. So we're 45 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: not doing very well if we compare ourselves internationally, and 46 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 2: that's crossing the country somewhere in the order of five 47 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: point four billion dollars per year because of death injuries, rehabilitation, 48 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 2: compensation and so on. So we're talking something that's a 49 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 2: big problem. 50 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: Why why are we so bad at it? 51 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 2: Well, I'll have to say you can probably tell from 52 00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 2: the accent that I will born here, but I've been 53 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: here neither Chris. I got here in nineteen eighty and 54 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 2: there are a lot of things that I discovered then, 55 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: and on reflection, I think I can see some of 56 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: the really good things about New Zealand as well as 57 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 2: some things that get in the way of workplace health 58 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: and safety. Because of ACC. Well, I've got to say 59 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:27,799 Speaker 2: I think ACC is one of the most brilliant things 60 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,040 Speaker 2: that New Zealand has. Because of ACC, employers don't have 61 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: to worry about being sued by workers if they are 62 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 2: injured or worse killed at work. But that means the 63 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: low fault liability side opens up employers to not having 64 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,160 Speaker 2: to worry too much, not so much about workplace health 65 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 2: and safety. So since fifty plus years it's I think 66 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: that's fifty two years now since ACC came in. The 67 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 2: imperative that I grew up with in the UK of 68 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 2: if you're injured at work, you sue and your employer 69 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: if they lose a case in court, your employer has 70 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: to pay. Those imperatives don't exist so much in New Zealand. 71 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,960 Speaker 2: And when we did the deal, when we changed from workers' 72 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: compensation to ACC, part of the deal was that New 73 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: Zealand would have a strong regulatory system, and so we 74 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 2: got ACC, but we didn't get the strong regulatory system 75 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 2: that led us to eventually the Health and Safety and 76 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 2: Employment Act. Hell of a lot of time was spent 77 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 2: arguing about whether something was a hazard or a significant hazard. 78 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: What was the difference perception. One person's significant hazard was 79 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 2: somebody else's just minor hazard. So we got all the 80 00:05:54,960 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 2: way through to fifteen years ago with Pack River, just 81 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 2: before Pike River. We with hindsight, yes, but it was 82 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: pretty obvious to people on the inside. We had a 83 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: system where the then Department of Labor Health and Safety 84 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: team was under resourced, underfunded. They if they send an 85 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: inspector to Pike River, they didn't have enough expenses that 86 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: they could claim to stay overnight and actually go to 87 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: the mind to see what was wrong or what was right. 88 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 2: So we lost twenty nine men up Pike River, and 89 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 2: the whole series of reports the Royal Commission and people 90 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,279 Speaker 2: saying yeah, we need to do better. When we kill 91 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: or seriously injure a worker, they suffer, but so does 92 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 2: their family and their far out and their co workers, 93 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:55,520 Speaker 2: and it just it ripples through the economy. We got 94 00:06:55,800 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: work Safe no longer part of what became Ministry of Business, 95 00:07:01,240 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: Innovation and Employment, and we were promised that underpinning the 96 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 2: new Act would be a whole lot of new approaches 97 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: to regulatory system, the regulatory system, and that would include 98 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: a proof codes of practice, up to date guidance, new regulations, 99 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: not more regulations, but new regulations that recognized how things 100 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 2: have changed over the years in the economy and New Zealand. Unfortunately, 101 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 2: most of that never happened. The draft regulations on plant 102 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: and equipment were consulted on, extensively, agreed to be jolly good, 103 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: well written, up to date, modern, and then there was 104 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: this long silence. They just quietly got shelved change of government. 105 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: Along that journey, of course, we also had Fakari when 106 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:02,200 Speaker 2: twenty two people died at on for and then others subsequently, 107 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 2: there was a major distraction in there for Work Safe, 108 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: doing the investigation and taking the prosecution. It absorbed not 109 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: just I think it was about fifteen million dollars in cost, 110 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: but also a hell of a lot of time. So 111 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: we've got a new government and the Minister would like 112 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 2: to reform the system. But to do what And this 113 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: is something I'm writing about at the moment for the 114 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: fifteenth anniversary of Pike River. What do we get instead 115 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: of what we've got? Well, there's a consensus view that 116 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: the Act is perfectly good. In my view, we could 117 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,839 Speaker 2: rename the Act from Health and Safety at Work Act 118 00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: to the Wealth and a Safety at Workout, because what 119 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 2: it's actually doing is talking about how a business should 120 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,959 Speaker 2: be managed, how it should be operate rated, including getting directors, 121 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 2: the officers of the business involved in how it is functioning. 122 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: They do. Directors do that already most of the time 123 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 2: for the financial side. 124 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 1: But they have no culpability, do they? And that's the kicker. 125 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 2: Oh they do now? They do now. Section forty four 126 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 2: sets up the duty of due diligence of officers In 127 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: New Zealand. We've had a few court cases, including an 128 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 2: important one last year when Maritime New Zealand, one of 129 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 2: the regulartory agentsies prosecuted the ex Chief Executive of Ports 130 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 2: of Auckland. He was convicted and the judge's decision is 131 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 2: or should be, almost mandatory reading for every director in 132 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 2: every business in New Zealand. But I don't know that 133 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: we're really getting the message across. I think it's unfor 134 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 2: fortunate that we talk about the law as if it's 135 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 2: a cost for business. It isn't. And what I just said, 136 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: if you want to think it through, carefully read the 137 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: Act and realize why it should be renamed the Wealth 138 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 2: and Safety at Work Act. It's about how to run 139 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: businesses better, more effectively without wasting money on workers who 140 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 2: aren't there because they're sick or injured or worse dead. 141 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 2: Is all of those on costs and the five point 142 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 2: four billion we could eliminate them with effective health and safety. 143 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: So that's my big take on what's wrong. 144 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 5: All right? We have so many one members approved by 145 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 5: Pike Robber. Some of the guys who are down their 146 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 5: mind at the moment are our members. One of our 147 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 5: delegates is down there, so we have a pretty clish 148 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 5: interest yet expect. But also we represent miners generally, and 149 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 5: when it's something like this happens, people forget which mining 150 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 5: company they work for. What they all pull together. This 151 00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 5: is a this is a dreadful time or the families 152 00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 5: of those guys who are down there, and it's type 153 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 5: for everybody to rally around and provide support. So we're 154 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 5: down here to make sure that that's happening, that the 155 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 5: families are supported, that the other miners are kept in 156 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 5: touch with what's going on, and that people are assisted 157 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 5: to get through this this agonizing time that we wait 158 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 5: to get the rescue BEFO underway. Once that happens, then 159 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 5: obviously the next thing is to ask the questions about 160 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 5: what happened, why happened, and at some point we need 161 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:30,240 Speaker 5: to be involved in that as well. 162 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 3: That this is do you have any safety concerns at 163 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 3: Pike River? 164 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 5: Well, we know that Pike River as a company has 165 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 5: The've got an active health and safety committee, the union 166 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 5: is well represented on it. There's been nothing unusual come 167 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 5: out of that that what have led us to the 168 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 5: sort of things that have happened here. So there's nothing 169 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 5: unusual about Pike River or this mine that we've been 170 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 5: particularly concerned about, which is why I think then when 171 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 5: we get through the rescue effort, the questions then need 172 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:00,720 Speaker 5: to be asked. You know, what did happen and why 173 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 5: did it happen and if anything could have been done 174 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 5: to prevent it. 175 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: How has this affected the mining community both here and 176 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 1: generally in. 177 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 5: You I think listen miners Barren. You know there are 178 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 5: understand there's a shadow goes up every spine because the 179 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 5: underground miners, they know that every day, every time they 180 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 5: go underground, anything like this could happen. It could have 181 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 5: happened to them, So they brought together pretty tightly. We've 182 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 5: had some amazing messages of support, not just from New 183 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 5: Zealand but from around the world, from mining unions around 184 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 5: the world. We've been conveying those messages to our members 185 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 5: down here of support, and I think it's it's that 186 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,439 Speaker 5: sort of stuff, that solidarity that helps get the mining 187 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 5: community and their families through an incident like this. 188 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: What are the most crucial lessons for New Zealand and 189 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: what should we have learned from the Pike River mine 190 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,359 Speaker 1: disaster now if we're looking back fifteen years. 191 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 2: On, I think the two big things were it's all 192 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 2: very good to wish for less regulatory interventions, but sometimes 193 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: you really do have to have strong intervention. You really 194 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 2: do need to make sure that people understand if they 195 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:22,239 Speaker 2: breach the law negligently, even grossly negligently, then the regulatory agency, 196 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: mostly Work Safe, will have the power to take them 197 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 2: to court. I think we need to increase the fins. 198 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 2: I was back in the UK when the British changed 199 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 2: finds to unlimited if it went into the Crown Court, 200 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 2: a bit like sending the case to the High Court 201 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: in New Zealand. That puts shockwaves through New zeal As, sorry, 202 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: through the British industry. And yes there've been multimillion pound 203 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:53,440 Speaker 2: fines in Britain, but it's pushed businesses to thinking seriously. 204 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 2: So make sure that we've got the right fines and 205 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 2: penalties in place, including a charge of manslaughter. And there 206 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: have been a few people in New Zealand who have 207 00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 2: grossly negligently allowed the deaths of workers. So we need 208 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 2: the deterrents I think we need I keep looping back 209 00:14:14,040 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: to this. We need to get up, to grow up 210 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: and start thinking of the Health and Safety Work Act 211 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: as an impediment to business, to start thinking how important 212 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: that is for better business. The second thing that we 213 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: need is directors and officers. In the legislation, an officer 214 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: is a director, the chief executive or somebody else who's 215 00:14:38,920 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 2: got significant influence in a business. I think a lot 216 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:50,560 Speaker 2: of businesses, big businesses where the directors are now asking questions, 217 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: have understood what needs to happen. I'm not sure that 218 00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: everybody has really got the message. So so there's a 219 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: need to get the message over to all directors. How 220 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: do we do that? Every year a director has to 221 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: tell the company's office that yes, there's still a director 222 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 2: and yes these their contact details. Perfectly simple for a 223 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: joined up approach across government for the company's office to 224 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 2: send all such directors an email reminding them, and the 225 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 2: emails written by WorkSafe a reminder of their responsibilities. Under 226 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: the Health and Safety Work Act. Every business does a 227 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: GST return, so it's all of the contact details are 228 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: known to ID and they could also send an email 229 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 2: on behalf of work Safe, so there's no breach of 230 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 2: the Privacy Act here. They could send an email from 231 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: work Safe to all businesses reminding them of their responsibilities, 232 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 2: and then there's no excuse. Nobody can say, but I 233 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 2: didn't know. I didn't know you had an email that 234 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: told you, and the the one through I r D 235 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: could because the I r D knows the sort of 236 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: business are involved in. It could point the direction, point 237 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 2: you in the direction of better more informed advice on 238 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: the work safe website. So what else could we cover? 239 00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: What else do we need to do? I think that 240 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: would if my wish list, you know, if if Father 241 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 2: Christmas was a real person and was in the in 242 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 2: the game of delivering my wish list for Christmas, that 243 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 2: those things would be it. I'm not sure whether the 244 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: minister is listening. I don't think the minister has read 245 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: the report that several of us wrote that the Public 246 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: Health Communications Center published last week. She said that she 247 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: hasn't read it. Will this government listen? Will they realize 248 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: that we're killing too many people at work, We're making 249 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 2: too many people sick because of work, and it's costing 250 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 2: US five and a half billion a year. 251 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: Do you think that they're more they're more preoccupied with 252 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: cutting red tape. 253 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, but sometimes red tape is there for a reason. 254 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: Quite right. And when you were talking before, actually I 255 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: don't know why I thought of it, but I thought 256 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: about seat belts. When seat belts came a mandatory wearing 257 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: of seat belts, there were people there were riots, and 258 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: you know, not riots in the street, but I remember, 259 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: you know, doing vox There were vox pops on television 260 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: and like, what do you think about wearing seat belts? 261 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 4: Oh? 262 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's ridiculous, and like, what do you feel? Well, 263 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: they're so uncomfortable. But there's now, years later, solid research 264 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: to suggest that if you're wearing a seat belt, you 265 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 1: are x times less likely to die. And that gives 266 00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: me the impression of yes. Sometimes the fire alarms at 267 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: work a bit annoying to leave my desk, go downstairs, 268 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: get ticked off by the fire warden, come back up, 269 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: knowing that it's a fire drill. But in the end 270 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 1: it's all going to make sense, isn't it. 271 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 2: The minimum that it does is make you aware of 272 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 2: this being an aspect of workplace health and safety. It's 273 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 2: a fire drill, but it's health and safety. I want 274 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 2: to get to something that before. Maybe you do road cones. 275 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 2: Why on earth do we have so many road cones? 276 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: Originally the idea was that you marked out places that 277 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: people should not drive. Why wouldn't you want to drive there? Well, 278 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: because there's a road worker doing something improving the road, 279 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: repairing the road, putting in new pipes, whatever it is, 280 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 2: and it's not very nice to run over people who 281 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,200 Speaker 2: are working on the road, so we divert the traffic 282 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,480 Speaker 2: round road cones and sometimes we put somebody with one 283 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 2: of those lollipop signs or better still, traffic lights. Do 284 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: we have too many road cones? Yeah, we went too 285 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: mad with them at one stage. I think it's about 286 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 2: three years ago now the industry started to think about 287 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 2: how to improve high safety, the work on the road safety, 288 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: and that they've gone too far with road cones are 289 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,159 Speaker 2: just something that you wave around, a sort of shroud 290 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: waving thing. We weren't doing it well enough. So we've 291 00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 2: now arrived at a point where there's a risk based 292 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: approach to highway working. It's going to take time and 293 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,639 Speaker 2: money to introduce that and make it safer for everybody 294 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:56,119 Speaker 2: on the roads and to have fewer road cones but 295 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:02,920 Speaker 2: also better temporary traffic management on the roads. Was that 296 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 2: because the Minister got grumpy about road cones and introduced 297 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 2: the hotline to report road cones? Now, the industry was 298 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 2: doing it already, and I think what the Minister needs 299 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: to do is pay attention to that as an object 300 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 2: lesson and how to encourage business to do it. Itself. 301 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 3: Two years after one of New Zealand's worst mining disasters, 302 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 3: a reporter has revealed it could have been prevented. Twenty 303 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 3: nine miners died in an explosion at the Pike with 304 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:35,920 Speaker 3: a coal mine. Investigators found there were twenty one warnings 305 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 3: of excess meeting gas in the weeks before it happened 306 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 3: that were either not noticed or ignored. The report does 307 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 3: not say what sparked the explosion, but suggests it could 308 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 3: have been an electrical fault. The miners are thought to 309 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 3: have died almost instantly. The bigger picture the investigators described 310 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 3: is damning. They say there was a production before safety 311 00:20:56,520 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 3: culture at the mine, an unsuitable ventilation shaft, only one exit, 312 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 3: and no planning for a coal mining emergency. And even 313 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 3: though the mining company was young and inexperienced, the Department 314 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 3: of Labour allowed it to operate without adequate monitoring. 315 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: Did you have enough staff for health and safety? 316 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,719 Speaker 2: No good? You ask for more staff is constantly. 317 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 3: The Minister for Labor, Kate Wilkinson, has stepped down. 318 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:25,640 Speaker 4: The The Partner of Labor for which she was the Minister, 319 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,440 Speaker 4: could have potentially prevented these mean losing their lives. It's 320 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,120 Speaker 4: possible that if they had done their job better, it's 321 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 4: possible that ase men might not have died. 322 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 3: The Pike River Company has long since gone bankrupt and 323 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 3: is not defending itself against nine labor violations. The former 324 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 3: chief executive, Peter Whistle, is pleading not guilty to twelve 325 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 3: health and safety violations, and an Australian contractor has been 326 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 3: fined for providing a faulty meeting detector. The families of 327 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 3: those who died have called for the Pike River management 328 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 3: to face criminal tis chargers. That's unlikely to happen, but 329 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 3: the inquiry has recommended major improvements in workplace safety regulation 330 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,160 Speaker 3: to prevent similar disasters in the future. Kroen I Malone 331 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 3: ol Jazeera. 332 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,800 Speaker 1: You mentioned before about corporate manslaughter charges. Now we don't 333 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: have them here in New Zealand. Both the UK and 334 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: Australia have added that corporate manslaughter for recklessness causing death 335 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: at work? What is it and why should we. 336 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: Well, you've almost hit the nail on the had there. 337 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 2: Corporate man's slaughter would be a charge that somebody grossly 338 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: negligently did not do something or did something. So I'm 339 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,880 Speaker 2: thinking of something that an email that came in yesterday 340 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,800 Speaker 2: from work Safe. I think I get pretty much all 341 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,479 Speaker 2: of their emails, and some of them I read, some 342 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: of them might glance at and delete. This one was 343 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 2: about a case where somebody was delivering building materials to 344 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: a site with a machine that could lift and take 345 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 2: them through. Unfortunately, they lifted too high and hit overhead 346 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:22,120 Speaker 2: power lines and the operator of the plant, the mobile plant, 347 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 2: was killed. I don't want to anticipate what the investigation 348 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: has shown on what works they would want to do. 349 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 2: But if I now generalize from that, if you know 350 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 2: that workers are going to be operating machinery in the 351 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: vicinity of overhead power lines eleven thousand volt power lines, 352 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,560 Speaker 2: and you don't do things to anticipate the risk of 353 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 2: hitting those power lines or simply coming too close to them, 354 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 2: and the power line is discharging and killing the worker, 355 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: if you don't anticipate that, when we know it's one 356 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 2: of these stupid everybody knows if they work in the sector, 357 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 2: that that will kill if you don't anticipate that. In 358 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,720 Speaker 2: my book, that's gross negligence, and that's language that I 359 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: grew up on originally in the UK before I came 360 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: to New Zealand simple negligence. Now maybe not the manslaughter charge. 361 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 2: It simple negligence where somebody strained their back because they 362 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: tried to lift something that was too heavy. That's one 363 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,160 Speaker 2: of the biggest costs to the country musculos collegial disorders. 364 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 2: But gross negligence is relatively rare. It's relatively rare, but 365 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 2: an awful lot of the cases that work Safe takes. 366 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 2: And I've read the district court decisions of probably two 367 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 2: or three hundred out of the one thousand since the 368 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 2: Health and Safety at Work pack came in, and there 369 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:01,719 Speaker 2: couple of one hundred that I think would have been 370 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 2: gross negligence where a manslaughter charge could have been taken. 371 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: What does it mean in practice? If somebody is prosecuted 372 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: in Australia or the UK, the prosecutor has to prove 373 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: what I call gross negligence. They have to prove that somebody, 374 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 2: there's a lovely old English legal work, that there was 375 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 2: a contumious disregard for the safety of the worker, it 376 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 2: was beyond disgraceful. If they convinced the court that that's 377 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 2: the case, then there could be a prison sentence or 378 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:41,439 Speaker 2: there could be a very large fine for corporate manslaughter, 379 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 2: and that would be different from in the UK the 380 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: unlimited fines that exist under the Health and Safety Workout, 381 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 2: the British Health and Safety Workout. Is it needed? I 382 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,159 Speaker 2: think it is needed here in New Zealand because we 383 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 2: have had cases where a corporate manslaughter of charge should 384 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 2: have been laid but couldn't. There's another bit of legislation 385 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 2: that's missing, and that's disqualification of directors. You can disqualified 386 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,959 Speaker 2: directors in the UK. I'm not sure about Australia, but 387 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:25,160 Speaker 2: certainly in the UK if they have again, if they 388 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 2: as a director have done something that caused death or 389 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 2: serious injury, disqualify them for five years. But again the 390 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 2: prosecutor has to prove to the court that's needed. This 391 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: is an awful lot of me wanting to sound like 392 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: a nasty chap. It's probably because forty odd years ago 393 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 2: I worked as a regular cheap person. I was an 394 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:51,919 Speaker 2: inspector in the UK. I think we can do better 395 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 2: with encouragement and getting businesses to understand that we're talking 396 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,439 Speaker 2: about improved profitability. But there are some people in New 397 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 2: Zealand who really should be taken out of being directors 398 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: because they have been recidivists. And I won't name anybody 399 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: in a podcast like this, but there are recidivists and 400 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 2: they should be disqualified as directors, and in some circumstances 401 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 2: may be convicted of a manslaughter charge. 402 00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:30,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Chris, my pleasure. 403 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 2: Thank you for the time this morning. 404 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 405 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 406 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is 407 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 408 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 1: our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page 409 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune 410 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 1: in tomorrow for another look by behind the Headlines.