Speaker 1: Hilda.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Whistleblowers at
Speaker 2: the Civil Aviation Authority have issued a dire warning about
Speaker 2: aviation safety in New Zealand. Staff describe a toxic culture
Speaker 2: with the CIA's director asleep at the wheel. Data obtained
Speaker 2: by The Herald has revealed over six hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 2: has been spent on legal fees related to employment issues,
Speaker 2: complaints and investigations, and its prompted warnings that the agency's
Speaker 2: investigative approach could mean more people will die. Today on
Speaker 2: the Front Page ends at Herald, Senior investigative reporter Michael
Speaker 2: Morritt joins us to discuss what he's learned about the.
Speaker 1: People meant to keep us safe in disguise.
Speaker 2: Michael, can you just remind us what the Civil Aviation
Speaker 2: Authority is?
Speaker 1: What are they tasked with doing?
Speaker 3: Yeah, so they are a Crown entity and they are
Speaker 3: charged with both overseeing aviation regulatory performance in New Zealand,
Speaker 3: but also they oversee ABSEEC or our aviation security service
Speaker 3: at the airports.
Speaker 1: How did this story come about?
Speaker 2: How many people have you actually spoken to for this investigation.
Speaker 3: So I've spoken to seven sources for this investigation. They
Speaker 3: are a mix of current staff members and some former
Speaker 3: staff members. I guess the important thing to point out
Speaker 3: to listeners is that it is highly unusual for government
Speaker 3: employees to go on the record with a journalist, and
Speaker 3: I think that speaks volumes that they have done that.
Speaker 3: They are obviously very nervous about being identified, so I
Speaker 3: won't be revealing who those people are. But they felt
Speaker 3: and have told me that they came to me because
Speaker 3: it was the last option and they could not get
Speaker 3: change or action through senior leaders at CIA about their concerns.
Speaker 2: Well, one thing that the whistleblowers have told you is
Speaker 2: that they believe that the CIA is turning their back
Speaker 2: on being.
Speaker 1: As safety regulator. What's happening here and why are staff
Speaker 1: so concerned?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are two sets of concerns. One is around
Speaker 3: the changes to the organization from an investigative approach, and
Speaker 3: the second set of concerns relates to what staff describe
Speaker 3: as a toxic culture where bullying and harassment is an
Speaker 3: ongoing problem. Let's deal with the first issue. The main
Speaker 3: thing that's happening at the moment is that there has
Speaker 3: been a significant change program undertaken at the CA that
Speaker 3: has involved combining the safety investigation team with the enforcement team.
Speaker 3: My sources are concerned that the CIA is going to
Speaker 3: take a greater enforcement role. It is more focused now
Speaker 3: on prosecutions. Historically, how the civil aviation has worked, and
Speaker 3: this has been the case for many years, is that
Speaker 3: they haven't had a system of what's called just culture.
Speaker 3: Now just culture is a system where they work with
Speaker 3: industry and if there are mishaps or mistakes or problems
Speaker 3: like near misses or if a door falls off an
Speaker 3: airplane or something like that, they feel that they can
Speaker 3: come to the CIA and not to fy authorities about
Speaker 3: that freely without facing any sort of punishment. The concern
Speaker 3: is that CIA is moving towards more of an enforcement focus,
Speaker 3: and in turn that industry or aviation operators, people who
Speaker 3: fly helicopters and planes, people who crew them, will be
Speaker 3: less likely to be transparent and open with the CIA
Speaker 3: about what's going on. And that is a significant concern
Speaker 3: by my sources because they believe that will ultimately lead
Speaker 3: to aviation in New Zealand becoming more unsafe, and it
Speaker 3: ultimately puts at risk New Zealanders who travel on planes
Speaker 3: every day.
Speaker 4: The culture or the direction of the organization has changed
Speaker 4: from being more of a safety regulator, if you like,
Speaker 4: to a compliance and enforcement type regulator, and so we've
Speaker 4: sort of turned our back on that now and gone
Speaker 4: more towards a punitive type approach. That's ultimately what's going
Speaker 4: to potentially cause more accidents to happen.
Speaker 5: If we don't get it together. The outcome is a
Speaker 5: catastrophic accident, another Fox Glecia, another cartertan Bloon accident, like
Speaker 5: our traveling public is going to die because we can't
Speaker 5: get our shit in one sock.
Speaker 3: Now, it's important to point out that the CIA has
Speaker 3: told me that the changes are not about increasing enforcement
Speaker 3: activity or taking a more punitive approach to investigations. They
Speaker 3: say that they have made these changes based on a
Speaker 3: review by Mike heron KC and that they are following
Speaker 3: all their obligations and are still very much dedicated to
Speaker 3: safety outcomes. In fact, they believe the changes will improve
Speaker 3: safety for all New Zealanders. So their side of the
Speaker 3: story is very different to what my sources say. It's
Speaker 3: worth pointing out, however, while I have seven sources raising
Speaker 3: concerns about this. Their concerns are also backed up by
Speaker 3: a leaked PSA survey that I have been given.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 3: This survey details comments from dozens of other current staff members,
Speaker 3: and I'll just read you one of the comments from
Speaker 3: one of the staff members in that because I think
Speaker 3: it encapsulates the concerns of staff at the CIA. They
Speaker 3: have said that the proposal exposes the authority to unacceptable
Speaker 3: risk at the expense of the flying public of Alted
Speaker 3: New Zealand. They go on to say that this could
Speaker 3: have reputational damage or cause reputational risk to the organization.
Speaker 2: And how have people's concerns about the direction of the
Speaker 2: CIA or what it's taken led to what's been described
Speaker 2: as very toxic.
Speaker 3: The overriding concern, and this has been the case for
Speaker 3: some time, is that when concerns are raised, they are
Speaker 3: not dealt with properly and quickly by the senior leadership
Speaker 3: at the CIA. They feel like the changes that are
Speaker 3: being proposed have essentially been forced through and those who
Speaker 3: have had different opinions have been isolated or excluded, and
Speaker 3: in some cases good staff have been effectively forced out
Speaker 3: of their position.
Speaker 6: I've decided to talk about what's happening internally at CIA.
Speaker 6: Because good people are leaving, good people are being pushed out.
Speaker 6: It's going to impact public safety. If someone raises a concern,
Speaker 6: be very careful, you will be exited. That's why a
Speaker 6: lot of people don't want to speak up anymore.
Speaker 7: We were all encouraged to be upstanders, not bystanders when
Speaker 7: we're missing inappropriate behavior. And when you did upstand, you
Speaker 7: were ignored. And it got to the point where I
Speaker 7: just had to leave. I knew that I wasn't going
Speaker 7: to change the system.
Speaker 3: Now, just talking about this concern about a sort of
Speaker 3: a toxic culture, which is what my sources say prevails
Speaker 3: at the Civil Aviation Authority. This is in some way
Speaker 3: verified by official information that I have obtained. And this
Speaker 3: is basically looking at the time period from June twenty
Speaker 3: twenty two until June twenty twenty four, so very recent.
Speaker 3: It's the last two years, and that reveals that there
Speaker 3: were sixty four complaints raised by staff about behavior at
Speaker 3: the CIA, sixteen complaints related to inappropriate behavior, twenty seven
Speaker 3: complaints related to bullying and harassment. Now, the CIA says,
Speaker 3: well that official information you got actually represented complaints by
Speaker 3: staff at both CIA and ad SEC, and if you
Speaker 3: split them, which they have done for me, the number
Speaker 3: of complaints from actual CIA staff is less. It's about
Speaker 3: seventeen complaints. In saying that the CIA still acknowledges that
Speaker 3: any complaints are still concerning to it.
Speaker 1: Well, what's it costing the CIA those complaints?
Speaker 3: Well, I was pretty shock, to be honest, to see
Speaker 3: what is being spent on dealing with employment issues. My
Speaker 3: sources have pointed out, of course, that the CIA does
Speaker 3: have internal employment lawyers, they have internal staff who could
Speaker 3: deal with this. However, the official information shows that six
Speaker 3: hundred and forty four thousand dollars was spent on external
Speaker 3: lawyers to deal with employment issues, internal complaints or investigations,
Speaker 3: and that, according to my sources, is in their words, unbelievable,
Speaker 3: in a horrific amount of money when you consider that
Speaker 3: the CIA has their own legal.
Speaker 1: Team and that money was that over that two years.
Speaker 3: Correct, that's just the past two years.
Speaker 2: But given that is taxpayer money, what role does this
Speaker 2: organization have with the government and can the gover government
Speaker 2: step in?
Speaker 3: Ultimately, it's a crown entity, government agency. It is answerable
Speaker 3: to the Minister same and Brown, and there are calls
Speaker 3: because of the perceived inaction by senior leaders at the CIA,
Speaker 3: for the Minister to intervene. All my sources have said
Speaker 3: it is critical that he does because in their mind
Speaker 3: and in their words, the CIA is a train that
Speaker 3: is out of control and about to wreck. So the
Speaker 3: concerns are great from my sources. They have serious concerns
Speaker 3: about major, serious dysfunction within this government organization.
Speaker 2: And this is all coming after a twenty twenty ministerial
Speaker 2: review by the then Transport Minister Phil Twiford that revealed
Speaker 2: a culture of bullying and harassment at the organization. What
Speaker 2: was done in the wake of that report and seemingly,
Speaker 2: why hasn't it worked?
Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's a good question. And I was the
Speaker 3: reporter responsible for exposing concerns in twenty nineteen that prompted
Speaker 3: this ministerial review. In twenty nineteen, I was approached by
Speaker 3: a completely separate and different group of whistleblowers from within
Speaker 3: the CIA, and they spoke to me about complaints being
Speaker 3: covered up, about sexual harassment and bullying, complaints being disregarded
Speaker 3: by managers, and at that time, the Transport Minister Phil
Speaker 3: Tweyford intervened and launched a ministerial review. The review verified
Speaker 3: my reporting that essentially bullying and harassment had been enabled
Speaker 3: by senior leaders and that it had continued for some time,
Speaker 3: and the issue there was that it was essentially the
Speaker 3: leadership who had failed now in this case. After that
Speaker 3: there was the resignation of then Director of the CIA,
Speaker 3: Graham Harris, and Nigel Gould, who was the chair woman
Speaker 3: of the board, was effectively sacked by Transport Minister Phil Twyford.
Speaker 3: He was sacked because he questioned the motives of the
Speaker 3: whistleblowers who had spoken to me, which of course didn't
Speaker 3: go down very well with the Transport Minister at the time,
Speaker 3: so there was big talk of changes. There was a
Speaker 3: special project setup to try and make it a more
Speaker 3: safe and inclusive working environment, to try and improve culture. Evidently,
Speaker 3: it appears in recent years that has not worked as
Speaker 3: it should have, and the bullying and the words of
Speaker 3: my sources is worse than it's ever been.
Speaker 8: In places it is horrendous. Where I know there are
Speaker 8: people who simply will not go into the office because
Speaker 8: of the attitude and having to see certain people. Managers
Speaker 8: have literally berated other people for their thoughts, their opinions,
Speaker 8: their views on things in front of other staff. Currently,
Speaker 8: it does feel like we're on a train that's out
Speaker 8: of control about to wreck, and they're just sitting back
Speaker 8: waiting to see where it ends.
Speaker 3: So while the focus has been on this special project
Speaker 3: called to Carcino to try and improve culture, it has
Speaker 3: not worked essentially. And the concern from my sources is
Speaker 3: that when they raise complaints, sometimes they are actively discouraged
Speaker 3: from raising complaints, and other times when they go right
Speaker 3: up to the director, they are concerned that he doesn't
Speaker 3: always act on what he's being told. So it's pretty
Speaker 3: disappointing as a journalist. You know, I worked really hard
Speaker 3: on that story. I felt that the minister at the
Speaker 3: time did the right thing by stepping in and launching
Speaker 3: this ministerial inquiry, and a lot of work was done
Speaker 3: to improve culture and there was a new focus. And
Speaker 3: yet here we are in twenty twenty four and the
Speaker 3: same problems are playing out where my sources say there
Speaker 3: is a toxic undercurrent within the CIA.
Speaker 2: Well, the current director and chief executive now is Keith
Speaker 2: Manch and people have described him to you as being
Speaker 2: asleep at the wheel, going so far as to call
Speaker 2: him Joe Biden.
Speaker 1: What's the issue there with him?
Speaker 3: I think the main concern is my sources say he's
Speaker 3: trying to put out so many fires, in their words,
Speaker 3: with problems at the agency, that he's just not being
Speaker 3: effective at his role as director. They don't believe he's
Speaker 3: been effective at reducing the number of bullying or harassment complaints.
Speaker 3: They don't believe he's been effective at making CIA's culture
Speaker 3: and working environment a lot better, and they just sort
Speaker 3: of think he's essentially, you know, missing an action. And
Speaker 3: they also believe that complaints that have gone directly to
Speaker 3: him have been downplayed or disregarded, given responses like hey,
Speaker 3: thanks for your feedback, we'll look into that, but then
Speaker 3: nothing eventuates. And that's the concern here, is that my
Speaker 3: sources have done the right thing. They've tried to, you know,
Speaker 3: stand up as they were encouraged to do post the
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen twenty twenty minister and inquiry, stand up and
Speaker 3: be heard. Yet when they are standing up, they're not
Speaker 3: being listened to, or sometimes when they're standing up, they're
Speaker 3: actually being encouraged not to lay a complaint because it
Speaker 3: might come back on them. And that's the worry is
Speaker 3: that people who are raising concerns end up themselves they
Speaker 3: feel being targeted.
Speaker 5: It's about being put into the cross heres of these people.
Speaker 5: I've been made aware of growing men in tears because
Speaker 5: of what has been done to them, and people are
Speaker 5: just kind of backing off now. They don't want to
Speaker 5: stand up, They don't want to say anything because you
Speaker 5: know that you'll be the next person that's going to
Speaker 5: be targeted by them.
Speaker 8: We're seeing a huge decline in reporting because they are
Speaker 8: fearful of reporting.
Speaker 6: More people will die if industry stop all the free reporting.
Speaker 1: How has the CIA responded to these claims?
Speaker 3: Well, look, I sent a series of very specific questions
Speaker 3: to the CIA. Unfortunately they did not answer most of them,
Speaker 3: but they did say that they're still working on culture
Speaker 3: issues and that, in their words, having a respectful, safe
Speaker 3: and inclusive workplace remains a key and ongoing priority for
Speaker 3: the CIA's director, Keith Manch and that they've introduced a
Speaker 3: whole lot of things and initiatives to try and improve
Speaker 3: workplace culture. For example, ninety eight percent of all staff
Speaker 3: have completed an online bull being, harassment and discrimination course,
Speaker 3: and most senior leaders have completed a development program with
Speaker 3: special assessments and coaching, so they're very clear that they
Speaker 3: have a zero tolerance approach to this sort of behavior
Speaker 3: and are still working on this as a priority. As
Speaker 3: is evident from my sources, it doesn't appear to be
Speaker 3: going very well.
Speaker 1: What do you expect will happen next in this well?
Speaker 3: I don't know, but I suspect that there may be
Speaker 3: others within CIA who have relevant information about the goings
Speaker 3: on at the agency, and if they do, I would
Speaker 3: encourage those people to get in touch with me. I
Speaker 3: think that the new Transport Minister, Siman Brown, will find
Speaker 3: the story of interest and I would expect that he
Speaker 3: would want to have a discussion with the Civil Aviation
Speaker 3: Authority its leaders about what we have exposed in this
Speaker 3: exclusive story this morning.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Michael.
Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 2: at enzed Herald dot co dot z. The Front Page
Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox.
Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts and Tune in tomorrow
Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.