1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: Hilda. 2 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Whistleblowers at 4 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 2: the Civil Aviation Authority have issued a dire warning about 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: aviation safety in New Zealand. Staff describe a toxic culture 6 00:00:28,040 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: with the CIA's director asleep at the wheel. Data obtained 7 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 2: by The Herald has revealed over six hundred thousand dollars 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 2: has been spent on legal fees related to employment issues, 9 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 2: complaints and investigations, and its prompted warnings that the agency's 10 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 2: investigative approach could mean more people will die. Today on 11 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: the Front Page ends at Herald, Senior investigative reporter Michael 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 2: Morritt joins us to discuss what he's learned about the. 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: People meant to keep us safe in disguise. 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: Michael, can you just remind us what the Civil Aviation 15 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 2: Authority is? 16 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: What are they tasked with doing? 17 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:16,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, so they are a Crown entity and they are 18 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 3: charged with both overseeing aviation regulatory performance in New Zealand, 19 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:28,839 Speaker 3: but also they oversee ABSEEC or our aviation security service 20 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 3: at the airports. 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 1: How did this story come about? 22 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 2: How many people have you actually spoken to for this investigation. 23 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 3: So I've spoken to seven sources for this investigation. They 24 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: are a mix of current staff members and some former 25 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 3: staff members. I guess the important thing to point out 26 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 3: to listeners is that it is highly unusual for government 27 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 3: employees to go on the record with a journalist, and 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 3: I think that speaks volumes that they have done that. 29 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: They are obviously very nervous about being identified, so I 30 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 3: won't be revealing who those people are. But they felt 31 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 3: and have told me that they came to me because 32 00:02:12,120 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: it was the last option and they could not get 33 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 3: change or action through senior leaders at CIA about their concerns. 34 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 2: Well, one thing that the whistleblowers have told you is 35 00:02:23,880 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: that they believe that the CIA is turning their back 36 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 2: on being. 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: As safety regulator. What's happening here and why are staff 38 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:32,119 Speaker 1: so concerned? 39 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, there are two sets of concerns. One is around 40 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 3: the changes to the organization from an investigative approach, and 41 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: the second set of concerns relates to what staff describe 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 3: as a toxic culture where bullying and harassment is an 43 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 3: ongoing problem. Let's deal with the first issue. The main 44 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 3: thing that's happening at the moment is that there has 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 3: been a significant change program undertaken at the CA that 46 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 3: has involved combining the safety investigation team with the enforcement team. 47 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 3: My sources are concerned that the CIA is going to 48 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: take a greater enforcement role. It is more focused now 49 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 3: on prosecutions. Historically, how the civil aviation has worked, and 50 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,280 Speaker 3: this has been the case for many years, is that 51 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 3: they haven't had a system of what's called just culture. 52 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 3: Now just culture is a system where they work with 53 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 3: industry and if there are mishaps or mistakes or problems 54 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 3: like near misses or if a door falls off an 55 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 3: airplane or something like that, they feel that they can 56 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: come to the CIA and not to fy authorities about 57 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 3: that freely without facing any sort of punishment. The concern 58 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 3: is that CIA is moving towards more of an enforcement focus, 59 00:03:55,120 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 3: and in turn that industry or aviation operators, people who 60 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 3: fly helicopters and planes, people who crew them, will be 61 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: less likely to be transparent and open with the CIA 62 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: about what's going on. And that is a significant concern 63 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: by my sources because they believe that will ultimately lead 64 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 3: to aviation in New Zealand becoming more unsafe, and it 65 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 3: ultimately puts at risk New Zealanders who travel on planes 66 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: every day. 67 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 4: The culture or the direction of the organization has changed 68 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 4: from being more of a safety regulator, if you like, 69 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 4: to a compliance and enforcement type regulator, and so we've 70 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:42,119 Speaker 4: sort of turned our back on that now and gone 71 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 4: more towards a punitive type approach. That's ultimately what's going 72 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 4: to potentially cause more accidents to happen. 73 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 5: If we don't get it together. The outcome is a 74 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 5: catastrophic accident, another Fox Glecia, another cartertan Bloon accident, like 75 00:04:54,520 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 5: our traveling public is going to die because we can't 76 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 5: get our shit in one sock. 77 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 3: Now, it's important to point out that the CIA has 78 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 3: told me that the changes are not about increasing enforcement 79 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,599 Speaker 3: activity or taking a more punitive approach to investigations. They 80 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 3: say that they have made these changes based on a 81 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: review by Mike heron KC and that they are following 82 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 3: all their obligations and are still very much dedicated to 83 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 3: safety outcomes. In fact, they believe the changes will improve 84 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 3: safety for all New Zealanders. So their side of the 85 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 3: story is very different to what my sources say. It's 86 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 3: worth pointing out, however, while I have seven sources raising 87 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:47,839 Speaker 3: concerns about this. Their concerns are also backed up by 88 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,119 Speaker 3: a leaked PSA survey that I have been given. 89 00:05:52,520 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 4: Now. 90 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 3: This survey details comments from dozens of other current staff members, 91 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: and I'll just read you one of the comments from 92 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 3: one of the staff members in that because I think 93 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 3: it encapsulates the concerns of staff at the CIA. They 94 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:14,560 Speaker 3: have said that the proposal exposes the authority to unacceptable 95 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 3: risk at the expense of the flying public of Alted 96 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: New Zealand. They go on to say that this could 97 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: have reputational damage or cause reputational risk to the organization. 98 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: And how have people's concerns about the direction of the 99 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 2: CIA or what it's taken led to what's been described 100 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: as very toxic. 101 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 3: The overriding concern, and this has been the case for 102 00:06:40,080 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 3: some time, is that when concerns are raised, they are 103 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 3: not dealt with properly and quickly by the senior leadership 104 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:54,480 Speaker 3: at the CIA. They feel like the changes that are 105 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:58,840 Speaker 3: being proposed have essentially been forced through and those who 106 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 3: have had different opinions have been isolated or excluded, and 107 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 3: in some cases good staff have been effectively forced out 108 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 3: of their position. 109 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 6: I've decided to talk about what's happening internally at CIA. 110 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 6: Because good people are leaving, good people are being pushed out. 111 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 6: It's going to impact public safety. If someone raises a concern, 112 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 6: be very careful, you will be exited. That's why a 113 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 6: lot of people don't want to speak up anymore. 114 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 7: We were all encouraged to be upstanders, not bystanders when 115 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 7: we're missing inappropriate behavior. And when you did upstand, you 116 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 7: were ignored. And it got to the point where I 117 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 7: just had to leave. I knew that I wasn't going 118 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 7: to change the system. 119 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 3: Now, just talking about this concern about a sort of 120 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: a toxic culture, which is what my sources say prevails 121 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 3: at the Civil Aviation Authority. This is in some way 122 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 3: verified by official information that I have obtained. And this 123 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: is basically looking at the time period from June twenty 124 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: twenty two until June twenty twenty four, so very recent. 125 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 3: It's the last two years, and that reveals that there 126 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 3: were sixty four complaints raised by staff about behavior at 127 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 3: the CIA, sixteen complaints related to inappropriate behavior, twenty seven 128 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: complaints related to bullying and harassment. Now, the CIA says, 129 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 3: well that official information you got actually represented complaints by 130 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:40,440 Speaker 3: staff at both CIA and ad SEC, and if you 131 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 3: split them, which they have done for me, the number 132 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:47,559 Speaker 3: of complaints from actual CIA staff is less. It's about 133 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 3: seventeen complaints. In saying that the CIA still acknowledges that 134 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: any complaints are still concerning to it. 135 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: Well, what's it costing the CIA those complaints? 136 00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 3: Well, I was pretty shock, to be honest, to see 137 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 3: what is being spent on dealing with employment issues. My 138 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 3: sources have pointed out, of course, that the CIA does 139 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: have internal employment lawyers, they have internal staff who could 140 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: deal with this. However, the official information shows that six 141 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 3: hundred and forty four thousand dollars was spent on external 142 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:28,920 Speaker 3: lawyers to deal with employment issues, internal complaints or investigations, 143 00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 3: and that, according to my sources, is in their words, unbelievable, 144 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 3: in a horrific amount of money when you consider that 145 00:09:37,600 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: the CIA has their own legal. 146 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: Team and that money was that over that two years. 147 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 3: Correct, that's just the past two years. 148 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 2: But given that is taxpayer money, what role does this 149 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 2: organization have with the government and can the gover government 150 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: step in? 151 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 3: Ultimately, it's a crown entity, government agency. It is answerable 152 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 3: to the Minister same and Brown, and there are calls 153 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 3: because of the perceived inaction by senior leaders at the CIA, 154 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 3: for the Minister to intervene. All my sources have said 155 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: it is critical that he does because in their mind 156 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 3: and in their words, the CIA is a train that 157 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 3: is out of control and about to wreck. So the 158 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 3: concerns are great from my sources. They have serious concerns 159 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 3: about major, serious dysfunction within this government organization. 160 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 2: And this is all coming after a twenty twenty ministerial 161 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: review by the then Transport Minister Phil Twiford that revealed 162 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 2: a culture of bullying and harassment at the organization. What 163 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 2: was done in the wake of that report and seemingly, 164 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 2: why hasn't it worked? 165 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, look, it's a good question. And I was the 166 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 3: reporter responsible for exposing concerns in twenty nineteen that prompted 167 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 3: this ministerial review. In twenty nineteen, I was approached by 168 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 3: a completely separate and different group of whistleblowers from within 169 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 3: the CIA, and they spoke to me about complaints being 170 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:25,280 Speaker 3: covered up, about sexual harassment and bullying, complaints being disregarded 171 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 3: by managers, and at that time, the Transport Minister Phil 172 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 3: Tweyford intervened and launched a ministerial review. The review verified 173 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 3: my reporting that essentially bullying and harassment had been enabled 174 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 3: by senior leaders and that it had continued for some time, 175 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 3: and the issue there was that it was essentially the 176 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 3: leadership who had failed now in this case. After that 177 00:11:51,520 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 3: there was the resignation of then Director of the CIA, 178 00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: Graham Harris, and Nigel Gould, who was the chair woman 179 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 3: of the board, was effectively sacked by Transport Minister Phil Twyford. 180 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: He was sacked because he questioned the motives of the 181 00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: whistleblowers who had spoken to me, which of course didn't 182 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 3: go down very well with the Transport Minister at the time, 183 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 3: so there was big talk of changes. There was a 184 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 3: special project setup to try and make it a more 185 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 3: safe and inclusive working environment, to try and improve culture. Evidently, 186 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 3: it appears in recent years that has not worked as 187 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 3: it should have, and the bullying and the words of 188 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 3: my sources is worse than it's ever been. 189 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 8: In places it is horrendous. Where I know there are 190 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 8: people who simply will not go into the office because 191 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 8: of the attitude and having to see certain people. Managers 192 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,199 Speaker 8: have literally berated other people for their thoughts, their opinions, 193 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,839 Speaker 8: their views on things in front of other staff. Currently, 194 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 8: it does feel like we're on a train that's out 195 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 8: of control about to wreck, and they're just sitting back 196 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 8: waiting to see where it ends. 197 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 3: So while the focus has been on this special project 198 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 3: called to Carcino to try and improve culture, it has 199 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,720 Speaker 3: not worked essentially. And the concern from my sources is 200 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 3: that when they raise complaints, sometimes they are actively discouraged 201 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,640 Speaker 3: from raising complaints, and other times when they go right 202 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 3: up to the director, they are concerned that he doesn't 203 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:49,079 Speaker 3: always act on what he's being told. So it's pretty 204 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 3: disappointing as a journalist. You know, I worked really hard 205 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 3: on that story. I felt that the minister at the 206 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: time did the right thing by stepping in and launching 207 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 3: this ministerial inquiry, and a lot of work was done 208 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: to improve culture and there was a new focus. And 209 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 3: yet here we are in twenty twenty four and the 210 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:13,079 Speaker 3: same problems are playing out where my sources say there 211 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 3: is a toxic undercurrent within the CIA. 212 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: Well, the current director and chief executive now is Keith 213 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 2: Manch and people have described him to you as being 214 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: asleep at the wheel, going so far as to call 215 00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: him Joe Biden. 216 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 1: What's the issue there with him? 217 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 3: I think the main concern is my sources say he's 218 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 3: trying to put out so many fires, in their words, 219 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: with problems at the agency, that he's just not being 220 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 3: effective at his role as director. They don't believe he's 221 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:51,920 Speaker 3: been effective at reducing the number of bullying or harassment complaints. 222 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 3: They don't believe he's been effective at making CIA's culture 223 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 3: and working environment a lot better, and they just sort 224 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: of think he's essentially, you know, missing an action. And 225 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: they also believe that complaints that have gone directly to 226 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 3: him have been downplayed or disregarded, given responses like hey, 227 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 3: thanks for your feedback, we'll look into that, but then 228 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 3: nothing eventuates. And that's the concern here, is that my 229 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 3: sources have done the right thing. They've tried to, you know, 230 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 3: stand up as they were encouraged to do post the 231 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen twenty twenty minister and inquiry, stand up and 232 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 3: be heard. Yet when they are standing up, they're not 233 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 3: being listened to, or sometimes when they're standing up, they're 234 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 3: actually being encouraged not to lay a complaint because it 235 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 3: might come back on them. And that's the worry is 236 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 3: that people who are raising concerns end up themselves they 237 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:51,479 Speaker 3: feel being targeted. 238 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 5: It's about being put into the cross heres of these people. 239 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 5: I've been made aware of growing men in tears because 240 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 5: of what has been done to them, and people are 241 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 5: just kind of backing off now. They don't want to 242 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 5: stand up, They don't want to say anything because you 243 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 5: know that you'll be the next person that's going to 244 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 5: be targeted by them. 245 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 8: We're seeing a huge decline in reporting because they are 246 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 8: fearful of reporting. 247 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 6: More people will die if industry stop all the free reporting. 248 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: How has the CIA responded to these claims? 249 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 3: Well, look, I sent a series of very specific questions 250 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 3: to the CIA. Unfortunately they did not answer most of them, 251 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 3: but they did say that they're still working on culture 252 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 3: issues and that, in their words, having a respectful, safe 253 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: and inclusive workplace remains a key and ongoing priority for 254 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 3: the CIA's director, Keith Manch and that they've introduced a 255 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 3: whole lot of things and initiatives to try and improve 256 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 3: workplace culture. For example, ninety eight percent of all staff 257 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 3: have completed an online bull being, harassment and discrimination course, 258 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 3: and most senior leaders have completed a development program with 259 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 3: special assessments and coaching, so they're very clear that they 260 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 3: have a zero tolerance approach to this sort of behavior 261 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 3: and are still working on this as a priority. As 262 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 3: is evident from my sources, it doesn't appear to be 263 00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 3: going very well. 264 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: What do you expect will happen next in this well? 265 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I suspect that there may be 266 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:36,200 Speaker 3: others within CIA who have relevant information about the goings 267 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 3: on at the agency, and if they do, I would 268 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 3: encourage those people to get in touch with me. I 269 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 3: think that the new Transport Minister, Siman Brown, will find 270 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 3: the story of interest and I would expect that he 271 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,360 Speaker 3: would want to have a discussion with the Civil Aviation 272 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 3: Authority its leaders about what we have exposed in this 273 00:17:58,600 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 3: exclusive story this morning. 274 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Michael. 275 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You 276 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 277 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 2: at enzed Herald dot co dot z. The Front Page 278 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 2: is produced by Ethan Siles with sound engineer Patty Fox. 279 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:25,199 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio 280 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts and Tune in tomorrow 281 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: for another look behind the headlines.