WEBVTT - Leighton Smith Podcast #252 - August 21th 2024 - Dr Stephen Rainbow 0:00:09.133 --> 0:00:12.013 You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 0:00:12.413 --> 0:00:16.213 Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 0:00:17.133 --> 0:00:20.133 It's time for all the Attitude, all the opinion, all 0:00:20.173 --> 0:00:24.693 the information, all the debates of the US Now the 0:00:24.893 --> 0:00:27.653 Laighton Smith podcast Power by news. 0:00:27.533 --> 0:00:28.053 Talks it B. 0:00:28.973 --> 0:00:32.413 Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty two for August 0:00:32.453 --> 0:00:36.493 twenty one, twenty twenty four. Centerpiece in two five to 0:00:36.533 --> 0:00:40.373 two is a lengthy discussion with Stephen Rainbow, the newly 0:00:40.413 --> 0:00:44.493 appointed Chief of the Human Rights Commission. Arguably the most 0:00:44.493 --> 0:00:48.653 critical issue involves the right to freedom of speech based 0:00:48.653 --> 0:00:52.573 on freedom of thought. Just how important freedom of speech 0:00:52.653 --> 0:00:56.133 is is reflected in headlines and stories from all over 0:00:56.173 --> 0:01:00.413 the planet, specifically those countries known as the West or 0:01:00.453 --> 0:01:04.133 Democratic countries. Virtually every day you will find if you 0:01:04.173 --> 0:01:06.373 go looking, and sometimes you don't even have to look for, 0:01:06.813 --> 0:01:10.333 you'll find examples of the battles that are underway in 0:01:10.453 --> 0:01:12.933 various parts of the world. For example, from this week's 0:01:13.253 --> 0:01:18.493 Spectator Australia comes the story of Dave Pellow. Dave Pellow 0:01:18.613 --> 0:01:23.653 is the founder of CSA Church and State Australia. He 0:01:23.693 --> 0:01:27.293 faces a complaint put before the Queensland Human Rights Commission 0:01:27.293 --> 0:01:31.933 accusing him of racism and vilification. He is being forced 0:01:32.173 --> 0:01:36.093 into a legal battle after he replaced the Welcomed country 0:01:36.133 --> 0:01:40.573 message with some twenty four to one church and state 0:01:40.613 --> 0:01:43.773 conferences led by Pello open with the ode to God's 0:01:43.813 --> 0:01:46.653 ownership of the land instead of the now common welcome 0:01:46.693 --> 0:01:50.533 to country message. Explaining reasons for the allegations, he said, 0:01:50.813 --> 0:01:53.653 I quote Psalm twenty four to one, which contradicts the 0:01:53.693 --> 0:01:58.293 claims of Aboriginal religion that the spiritual entity it calls 0:01:58.413 --> 0:02:03.493 country requires deceased ancestors to permit someone's arrival or travel 0:02:03.533 --> 0:02:08.293 through it. If that's racist, he asks, isn't criticizing Christian 0:02:08.373 --> 0:02:12.293 belief's racism too. The complaint also found fault with Dave's 0:02:12.293 --> 0:02:16.933 thirty minute presentation. Pello allegedly failed to fall in line 0:02:17.413 --> 0:02:22.613 and give voice and visibility to events such as invasion Day. 0:02:23.373 --> 0:02:25.613 You get the picture. We seem to be in a 0:02:25.653 --> 0:02:29.213 similar situation in New Zealand with regard to similar matters, 0:02:29.413 --> 0:02:32.933 the status of water being the latest that is a 0:02:33.013 --> 0:02:37.333 subject to shall we say, different opinions. But before we 0:02:37.373 --> 0:02:39.733 get to David Rainbow, there is another matter that I 0:02:39.773 --> 0:02:42.413 want to raise I received yesterday morning a press release, 0:02:42.453 --> 0:02:45.613 a media release from the University of Auckland. Does climate 0:02:45.693 --> 0:02:49.613 reporting make a difference? Let me quote Some of the 0:02:49.653 --> 0:02:53.853 New Zealand's biggest companies submitted their first mandatory climate related 0:02:53.893 --> 0:02:58.573 disclosures this year, but a new study shows disclosure does 0:02:58.613 --> 0:03:02.773 not guarantee better behavior. This year, New Zealand became among 0:03:02.813 --> 0:03:05.573 the first countries in the world to force note the 0:03:05.613 --> 0:03:10.373 word force their largest companies and financial institutions, about two 0:03:10.413 --> 0:03:14.013 hundred in all, to disclose their climate related risks and 0:03:14.093 --> 0:03:19.453 opportunities in their annual reports and make regulatory filings. But 0:03:19.573 --> 0:03:23.013 do these kinds of initiatives improve environmental outcomes? A new 0:03:23.093 --> 0:03:27.373 study co authored by Professor Chald D. Villier from the 0:03:27.453 --> 0:03:31.533 University of Auckland Business School finds that mandating social and 0:03:31.733 --> 0:03:36.613 environmental disclosures does not improve business's performance. What a surprise. 0:03:37.053 --> 0:03:40.573 Professor DeVillier and his fellow researchers examined the effects of 0:03:40.613 --> 0:03:45.533 a prominent EU sustainability reporting initiative, which came into effect 0:03:45.893 --> 0:03:50.253 in twenty seventeen. The legislation requires large companies to report 0:03:50.293 --> 0:03:55.733 their performance on non financial matters, including environmental issues, social 0:03:55.813 --> 0:04:02.053 and employee matters, human rights, anti corruption, and bribery. But 0:04:02.133 --> 0:04:05.893 after analyzing a cross country sample of businesses between two 0:04:05.893 --> 0:04:09.693 thousand nine and twenty twenty, the researchers found that social 0:04:09.733 --> 0:04:14.893 and environmental outcomes did not meaningfully improve after the directive. 0:04:15.173 --> 0:04:19.253 Despite the regulatory push, European companies did not exhibit substantial 0:04:19.293 --> 0:04:23.213 improvements in their social and environmental performance. The findings are surprising, 0:04:23.213 --> 0:04:26.773 says debilias It's important that we don't assume that if 0:04:26.813 --> 0:04:31.493 we force companies to disclose information, they are actually going 0:04:31.533 --> 0:04:36.493 to do better by the environment and people. One could 0:04:36.533 --> 0:04:39.453 make many, many comments on this. This is a prime 0:04:39.533 --> 0:04:43.973 example of the authoritarian tentacles that we're being subjected to 0:04:44.453 --> 0:04:47.333 on a greater basis in all areas of life. It 0:04:47.413 --> 0:04:50.973 is social activism when it comes to matters to do 0:04:51.093 --> 0:04:54.213 with climate. Actually let me let me bypass that and 0:04:54.413 --> 0:04:58.973 be more inclusive. The legislation requires large companies to report 0:04:59.013 --> 0:05:04.893 their performance on non financial matters, including I'm repeating environmental issues, 0:05:05.453 --> 0:05:11.893 social and employee matters, human rights, anti corruption, and bribery, 0:05:12.413 --> 0:05:15.933 most of which, if not all, has very little to do, 0:05:16.173 --> 0:05:20.413 if anything, with what a company's job is. What the 0:05:20.453 --> 0:05:23.613 purpose of a company is There is much more to 0:05:23.613 --> 0:05:25.733 be said on this, and I'm going to include it 0:05:25.853 --> 0:05:30.813 at the end of the podcast because it will help 0:05:30.853 --> 0:05:35.333 explain why this approach to life is a nonsense. And 0:05:35.413 --> 0:05:38.573 by the way, Stephen Rainbow makes commentary on an aspect 0:05:38.613 --> 0:05:43.053 of this as you'll see, not so much of business, 0:05:43.613 --> 0:05:47.373 but an aspect of universities and what their role is 0:05:47.653 --> 0:05:50.533 or is not, and where their failings are, of which 0:05:50.573 --> 0:05:52.973 there are many. But let me leave you with a 0:05:53.013 --> 0:05:55.853 headlined at the moment, want more freedom of speech, try 0:05:56.213 --> 0:06:07.093 less government, Stephen Rainbow. Next, there are essential fat nutrients 0:06:07.093 --> 0:06:09.333 that we need in our diet as the body cart 0:06:09.373 --> 0:06:13.373 manufacture them. These are omega three and Amega six fatty acids. 0:06:13.693 --> 0:06:17.333 Equisine is a combination of fish oil and virgin evening 0:06:17.373 --> 0:06:21.093 primrose oil, a formula that provides an excellent source of 0:06:21.133 --> 0:06:24.373 Omega three and Omega six fatty acids in their naturally 0:06:24.413 --> 0:06:28.653 existing ratios. The omega six from evening primrose oil assists 0:06:28.733 --> 0:06:32.093 the omega three fish oil to be more effective. Equisine 0:06:32.133 --> 0:06:35.053 is a high quality fish oil supplement enriched with evening 0:06:35.053 --> 0:06:39.613 primrose oil that works synergistically for comprehensive health support. Source 0:06:39.693 --> 0:06:44.013 from the deep sea sardines. Anchovisa magrol provide essential Amiga 0:06:44.053 --> 0:06:47.933 three fatty acids in their purest form without any internal 0:06:48.013 --> 0:06:51.213 organs or toxins. Every batch is tested for its purity 0:06:51.253 --> 0:06:54.613 before it's allowed to be sold. Equisine supports cells to 0:06:54.653 --> 0:06:58.413 be flexible, so important to support healthy blood flow and 0:06:58.533 --> 0:07:03.493 overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood balance and mental 0:07:03.493 --> 0:07:06.733 clarity and focus in children, all the way to supporting 0:07:06.773 --> 0:07:10.453 stiff joints, mental focus, health and healthy eyes as we 0:07:10.573 --> 0:07:13.253 get older. Equas in as a premium high grade fish 0:07:13.413 --> 0:07:16.773 and evening primrose oil to be taken in addition to 0:07:16.813 --> 0:07:20.253 a healthy diet and is only available from pharmacies and 0:07:20.333 --> 0:07:23.933 health stores. Always read the label and users directed and 0:07:24.013 --> 0:07:28.413 if symptoms persist, see your healthcare professional. Farmer Broker Auckland. 0:07:30.533 --> 0:07:34.493 The Human Rights Commission is an independent Crown entity established 0:07:34.573 --> 0:07:37.013 under the Human Rights Ack and the Crown Entities Act. 0:07:37.213 --> 0:07:39.933 The Commission works with the government and civil society to 0:07:40.133 --> 0:07:44.573 advocate and promote respect for human rights and to promote 0:07:44.613 --> 0:07:48.053 harmonious relations in New Zealand. As set outs in Section 0:07:48.133 --> 0:07:50.213 nineteen of the Human Rights Act, the Commission has a 0:07:50.293 --> 0:07:54.493 duty to carry out its functions independently of the government. 0:07:55.253 --> 0:07:58.253 Section five of the Human Rights Act provides that the 0:07:58.253 --> 0:08:02.693 Commission's primary functions are no advocates and promote respect for 0:08:02.893 --> 0:08:07.373 and understanding and depreciation of human rights in New Zealand society. 0:08:07.853 --> 0:08:12.093 Encourage the maintenance and development of harmonious relations between individuals 0:08:12.453 --> 0:08:16.213 and among the diverse groups in New Zealand society. To 0:08:16.293 --> 0:08:21.853 promote racial equality and cultural diversity. To promote equal employment opportunities, 0:08:21.893 --> 0:08:25.493 including pay equity. To promote and protect the full and 0:08:25.693 --> 0:08:30.853 equal enjoyment of human rights by persons with disabilities. Functions 0:08:30.853 --> 0:08:34.813 of the Chief Commissioner include chairing the Commission and leading 0:08:34.813 --> 0:08:37.733 discussions of the Commission, except when it is the function 0:08:37.933 --> 0:08:41.813 of a Commissioner to do so. Ensuring that the activities 0:08:41.893 --> 0:08:46.133 undertaken in the performance of the Commission's functions are consistent 0:08:46.973 --> 0:08:51.093 with the strategic direction and other determinations of the Commission, 0:08:51.293 --> 0:08:54.733 which one presumes vary from time to time. And ensuring 0:08:54.853 --> 0:08:58.733 that the Commission is effective and efficient in carrying out 0:08:59.333 --> 0:09:02.853 its functions. Now I have to say that those functions 0:09:02.973 --> 0:09:07.973 of the Chief Commissioner sound well open to interpretation, a 0:09:07.973 --> 0:09:12.933 little vague maybe so. Stephen Rainbow, congratulations on your appointment 0:09:13.053 --> 0:09:16.373 welcome to the Latensmith Podcast. I'm appreciative of the fact 0:09:16.373 --> 0:09:19.413 that you made the time available. How do you, as 0:09:19.453 --> 0:09:22.933 a first question, how do you interpret your role as 0:09:22.973 --> 0:09:26.693 the Chief Commissioner of the New Zealand Human Rights Commission. 0:09:26.973 --> 0:09:29.733 First of all, thank you Layton for the opportunity to 0:09:30.293 --> 0:09:35.853 appear on your podcast and to have this discussion. And 0:09:36.253 --> 0:09:39.013 can I say it's probably something of a relief to 0:09:39.013 --> 0:09:41.093 be able to talk about things in a little more 0:09:41.133 --> 0:09:47.373 detail than the sound bites which have dominated discussion around 0:09:47.453 --> 0:09:51.093 these appointments to date, So really look forward to that opportunity. 0:09:52.333 --> 0:09:56.853 The Human Rights Commission was established in seventy seven and 0:09:57.013 --> 0:10:04.893 so I hope it's not too use a response to 0:10:04.973 --> 0:10:07.773 say that as it heads to its fiftieth birthday and 0:10:07.853 --> 0:10:12.173 twenty twenty seven, when the new group of commissioners will 0:10:12.293 --> 0:10:15.973 be in charge, I think it's a really good opportunity 0:10:16.093 --> 0:10:19.653 to actually address precisely your question, which is what are 0:10:19.693 --> 0:10:23.373 the strategic priorities of the Commission? What are the key 0:10:23.453 --> 0:10:26.453 human rights issues that we are facing as a country, 0:10:27.053 --> 0:10:28.653 And if I could just give you a couple of 0:10:29.213 --> 0:10:32.373 immediate perspectives on that from where I come from. Apart 0:10:32.413 --> 0:10:35.933 from the fact that there are real challenges around issues 0:10:36.093 --> 0:10:41.533 like the impact on human rights from artificial intelligence. For example, 0:10:41.573 --> 0:10:44.293 if you look at the international literature on human rights, 0:10:44.933 --> 0:10:49.653 things like AI loom very large. My first point, my 0:10:49.773 --> 0:10:55.093 second point. I suspect that the context for this review 0:10:55.173 --> 0:10:58.693 of our strategic priorities and our work over the years 0:10:58.733 --> 0:11:04.013 ahead needs ideally to be focused on how we go 0:11:04.253 --> 0:11:07.053 about and what role we might have in fostering the 0:11:07.133 --> 0:11:12.813 social cohesion which seems to have been lost. And I 0:11:12.933 --> 0:11:17.613 say that because there is nothing that makes human rights 0:11:17.693 --> 0:11:22.453 more vulnerable than a divided, polarized society. I've spent a 0:11:22.453 --> 0:11:29.493 good part latent of my adult life exploring and researching history, 0:11:30.093 --> 0:11:34.893 in particular the Holocaust, and it really alarms me to 0:11:35.013 --> 0:11:41.813 see some of the patterns that occur in societies where 0:11:42.333 --> 0:11:48.933 totalitarianism and authoritarianism flourish, because one of those patterns is 0:11:49.573 --> 0:11:53.893 a polarized and divided society, whether it's the Soviets in 0:11:53.973 --> 0:11:57.613 nineteen seventeen, or Russia, I shou'd say in nineteen seventeen, 0:11:57.653 --> 0:12:01.373 whether it's a Nazis in Germany in the early thirties. 0:12:01.973 --> 0:12:04.773 And I think we've got a real role, and I 0:12:04.813 --> 0:12:09.373 can't see anyone else in such a strong position to 0:12:09.493 --> 0:12:12.213 actually look at what we need to do as a 0:12:12.333 --> 0:12:16.733 nation to foster social cohesion and perhaps to focus more 0:12:16.773 --> 0:12:18.813 on what it is that we have in common rather 0:12:18.893 --> 0:12:20.733 than what separates us. 0:12:21.693 --> 0:12:25.253 You, as I read the Commission, and your position as 0:12:25.413 --> 0:12:30.493 chief is independent of the government and is meant to 0:12:30.533 --> 0:12:33.693 operate that way. Where does it leave you with regard 0:12:33.773 --> 0:12:37.933 to advice to the government, either when asked for or 0:12:38.693 --> 0:12:40.813 even when not so. 0:12:41.533 --> 0:12:44.173 On the point of political independence, I just want to 0:12:44.213 --> 0:12:47.613 tell you very briefly about my background later, which is 0:12:47.653 --> 0:12:50.533 that I helped to form the Green Party in nineteen 0:12:50.653 --> 0:12:54.933 ninety and I was the first person elected a New 0:12:55.013 --> 0:12:57.013 Zealand and a Green ticket, and I was a Wellington 0:12:57.053 --> 0:13:00.853 City councilor for nine years. Subsequently, I have worked with 0:13:00.933 --> 0:13:05.653 people across the political spectrum to progress a range of issues, including, 0:13:06.493 --> 0:13:09.893 for example, the funding of the City rail Link, Auban's 0:13:09.933 --> 0:13:15.093 underground railway. All of these activities that I've been involved 0:13:15.093 --> 0:13:17.453 in have been dependent on being able to work with 0:13:17.493 --> 0:13:20.333 people across the political spectrum, and I would hope that's 0:13:20.373 --> 0:13:22.613 one of the reasons I've been appointed to this role. 0:13:22.933 --> 0:13:26.053 That doesn't answer your question. The fact is that this 0:13:26.173 --> 0:13:29.893 is an independent statutory role and one of the things 0:13:30.013 --> 0:13:34.053 that I will have to use very judiciously is the 0:13:34.093 --> 0:13:38.973 potential to influence public debate around issues that I think 0:13:39.373 --> 0:13:41.893 government should be addressing. And I might give you an 0:13:41.933 --> 0:13:44.133 example of that if I may, although I need to 0:13:44.133 --> 0:13:47.093 emphasize I haven't even met with the Commission yet and 0:13:48.813 --> 0:13:52.373 I don't start in the role for a couple of 0:13:52.373 --> 0:13:55.493 months yet. If we look at what's happened in Australia 0:13:55.573 --> 0:13:58.773 as a result of the Middle East conflict, Prime Minister 0:13:58.853 --> 0:14:04.573 Albanesi recently decried the fact that the level of social intolerance, 0:14:04.613 --> 0:14:07.893 the destruction of social cohesion, the amount of violence and 0:14:07.933 --> 0:14:14.613 protest I really have led to a most unfortunate situation 0:14:14.973 --> 0:14:18.453 in Australia, and he has as one of the results 0:14:18.453 --> 0:14:22.293 of that appointed and emissary on anti Semitism. If I 0:14:22.413 --> 0:14:25.693 look at what's happening in New Zealand, I think it's 0:14:25.933 --> 0:14:30.133 not far removed, at least in our major cities, from 0:14:30.133 --> 0:14:32.253 what has happened in Australia. And I think one of 0:14:32.293 --> 0:14:35.133 the things that I might, for example, want to pursue 0:14:35.133 --> 0:14:37.293 when I get my feet under the desk is talking 0:14:37.573 --> 0:14:40.573 an advert advocating to this government that we need to 0:14:40.613 --> 0:14:44.413 do something more active in the space of fighting anti 0:14:44.413 --> 0:14:48.013 Semitism as has occurred in Australia of late. 0:14:48.813 --> 0:14:50.733 As far as you're concerned, what has led to that 0:14:51.293 --> 0:14:52.413 situation arising? 0:14:53.133 --> 0:14:58.093 That situation has arisen because of people's intense feelings about 0:14:59.653 --> 0:15:03.013 what is happening in the Middle East, and I think 0:15:03.053 --> 0:15:07.173 that's completely understandable. It's also arisen from the fact that 0:15:07.213 --> 0:15:10.493 we now have a far more diverse society than we've 0:15:10.533 --> 0:15:15.293 had in the past, with significant numbers of people from 0:15:16.173 --> 0:15:19.333 communities that have a direct relationship to what's happening in 0:15:19.373 --> 0:15:23.013 the Middle East. And I think that that helps to 0:15:23.093 --> 0:15:26.333 explain why that has emerged. But there's also a sense, 0:15:26.453 --> 0:15:29.493 perhaps if we were to try and look at this analytically, 0:15:29.573 --> 0:15:35.773 that it's hard to identify at the moment a cause 0:15:35.813 --> 0:15:41.333 that's perhaps more high profile and more immediate, with suffering 0:15:41.453 --> 0:15:44.213 is so evident than what's happening in the Middle East. 0:15:44.653 --> 0:15:49.973 It's far more understandable that people want to go out 0:15:50.013 --> 0:15:52.533 and protest about that than about the fact that you 0:15:52.573 --> 0:15:57.293 know that people are getting thumped in their shops in Auckland, 0:15:57.373 --> 0:15:59.773 for example, when they turn up to work because of 0:16:00.373 --> 0:16:04.813 the antisocial activities happening there. So I think that's I 0:16:04.853 --> 0:16:07.213 think it is a result of those sorts of factors. 0:16:07.253 --> 0:16:11.533 I guess the other thing is that we're possibly a 0:16:11.573 --> 0:16:15.493 little selective about what it is that we do protest 0:16:15.573 --> 0:16:19.333 about in the Middle East because it's been such a 0:16:19.413 --> 0:16:25.413 long or seems like such a long conflict has exacerbated 0:16:25.493 --> 0:16:28.093 these tensions. But I do note that at the moment, 0:16:28.133 --> 0:16:31.893 for example, that Hindu villages and Bangladesh are being burned 0:16:31.933 --> 0:16:34.253 to the ground, but we're not seeing protests about that. 0:16:34.453 --> 0:16:38.013 So we have this because we're part of the Western world. 0:16:39.053 --> 0:16:41.573 We have this intense interest in what's happening in Israel 0:16:41.613 --> 0:16:45.213 in particular, and I don't think that's going to change, 0:16:45.253 --> 0:16:50.333 but it has created a situation where, for example, the 0:16:50.613 --> 0:16:54.733 increase in anti Semitic incidents in New Zealand has increased 0:16:55.253 --> 0:16:59.813 somewhat dramatically since last October the seventh. 0:17:00.733 --> 0:17:05.853 You suggested that you didn't see a headline over the 0:17:05.893 --> 0:17:08.693 top of all this. Let me make a suggestion of one. 0:17:10.333 --> 0:17:13.213 You're not going to have a discussion like this without 0:17:13.253 --> 0:17:17.973 being controversial to some extent, depending on the on the recipient, 0:17:18.053 --> 0:17:20.733 of course, but I'm going to suggest to you that 0:17:21.253 --> 0:17:24.973 the situation. Actually, I want to back up. Last night, 0:17:25.293 --> 0:17:28.933 quite by accident, we came across a documentary on. 0:17:31.693 --> 0:17:32.893 This exacts. 0:17:34.133 --> 0:17:38.973 No on this exact situation in the Middle East on 0:17:39.173 --> 0:17:43.413 Sky Australia, and it was it was basically it was 0:17:43.453 --> 0:17:45.333 a documentary, but it was a Q and A and 0:17:45.453 --> 0:17:49.973 the journalist was was doing an extremely good job of 0:17:50.053 --> 0:17:53.533 talking to people on on of all of all attitudes 0:17:54.373 --> 0:18:00.333 involved in the violence that now exists in Australia, that 0:18:00.493 --> 0:18:06.613 you are rightfully concerned about happening here. And that led 0:18:06.653 --> 0:18:10.893 me to confirm something that I that I'd formulated not 0:18:11.053 --> 0:18:13.453 very long ago. And I'm going to suggest to you 0:18:13.613 --> 0:18:18.253 that the countries that we both live in different to 0:18:18.373 --> 0:18:20.813 different levels or different extremes at this point of time. 0:18:20.853 --> 0:18:23.253 But the countries we both live in, Australia and New Zealand, 0:18:24.213 --> 0:18:29.173 the days of multiculturalism are over. Once upon a time 0:18:29.213 --> 0:18:33.293 it was possible to have a multicultural society that ran smoothly. 0:18:34.133 --> 0:18:37.493 Now I don't believe it is anymore. That to me 0:18:37.813 --> 0:18:43.933 is the result of immigration policies and people of fractured 0:18:43.973 --> 0:18:49.413 cultures or fractured relationships to enter the country in increasing numbers. 0:18:50.053 --> 0:18:52.173 And when you do that you're going to get yourself 0:18:52.213 --> 0:18:55.053 from You're going to get yourself into trouble just very quickly. 0:18:55.693 --> 0:18:58.013 I was quite young at the time, but growing up 0:18:58.053 --> 0:19:05.933 in Sydney, I remember distinctly the Czechoslovakian division in Sydney 0:19:05.933 --> 0:19:09.493 in particular, where there were where there were bombs planted 0:19:09.573 --> 0:19:14.013 in various homes and offices, and there were people blown up, etc. 0:19:15.573 --> 0:19:20.293 Because they came from the same background where this problem 0:19:20.413 --> 0:19:22.013 exists in the first place. 0:19:22.213 --> 0:19:27.613 You say, well, later, and I need to be very 0:19:28.053 --> 0:19:32.813 explicit about the fact that I think that multiculturalism brings 0:19:32.813 --> 0:19:36.693 with it many advantages, not least of which is that 0:19:36.813 --> 0:19:42.293 my partner, for example, is an immigrant. But I think 0:19:42.413 --> 0:19:48.173 that the question might be perhaps better put as if 0:19:48.173 --> 0:19:52.053 we are, and we indeed are multicultural societies, if we 0:19:52.093 --> 0:19:55.973 are to have successful multicultural societies, then what is it 0:19:56.013 --> 0:19:59.293 that we need to do to ensure the success of 0:19:59.333 --> 0:20:02.053 that multiculturalism. And I guess one of the things that 0:20:02.093 --> 0:20:04.053 I think we need to do a far better job 0:20:04.093 --> 0:20:09.133 of is dialogue between the different commune nities who now 0:20:09.133 --> 0:20:11.253 make up New Zealand. So I'll give you an example 0:20:11.253 --> 0:20:13.013 if I may, and. 0:20:13.213 --> 0:20:16.893 Just before you do that, that'd lose your place, suggest 0:20:16.973 --> 0:20:23.493 that importing the problems, and the problems only exist when 0:20:23.493 --> 0:20:27.813 there's more than one attitude, if you like, importing the 0:20:27.893 --> 0:20:33.013 problems that can't be settled from whence they came is 0:20:33.053 --> 0:20:37.693 simply inviting the same issue to exist here or wherever 0:20:37.813 --> 0:20:38.373 it may be. 0:20:38.773 --> 0:20:42.493 Well, I don't think we're going to change the fact 0:20:42.493 --> 0:20:46.053 that we're a multicultural society, and so the question then 0:20:46.133 --> 0:20:48.693 becomes not the question that you're asking, but rather how 0:20:48.693 --> 0:20:51.573 do we make a multicultural society succeed? And I think 0:20:51.613 --> 0:20:54.533 that's something that a Human Rights Commission, for example, can 0:20:54.613 --> 0:20:58.693 play a role and fulfilling. I guess the example that 0:20:58.773 --> 0:21:02.293 I was going to give of where these issues are 0:21:02.293 --> 0:21:06.373 a challenge, and this is not to say that multicultural 0:21:06.933 --> 0:21:13.133 is not desirable, is that we had as our neighbor 0:21:13.293 --> 0:21:19.453 on the North Shore, my husband and I a Liberal 0:21:19.533 --> 0:21:24.133 National MP who knew us personally and who voted against 0:21:24.693 --> 0:21:27.693 same sex marriage. And I went up to Jonathan. I said, Jonathan, 0:21:27.733 --> 0:21:31.573 what on earth are you doing? And he said, the 0:21:31.613 --> 0:21:37.973 only issue that the Korean community in Northcote had mobilized 0:21:38.133 --> 0:21:42.453 against in his years in parliament was against same sex marriage. 0:21:42.493 --> 0:21:45.933 And there were six thousand I think there was the 0:21:45.973 --> 0:21:49.013 figure Korean people there, and he needed to respect their views. 0:21:49.053 --> 0:21:52.213 Now I'm not saying that's wrong, Please don't take it 0:21:52.253 --> 0:21:55.933 that way. I'm just saying I wonder, given that we 0:21:56.013 --> 0:21:58.853 have human rights progress for gay people, which has been 0:21:58.933 --> 0:22:02.493 quite what there's been a complete transformation in my lifetime, 0:22:03.173 --> 0:22:06.093 what effort are we making to talk to new immigrant 0:22:06.093 --> 0:22:10.533 communities about issues like that going to make multicultural succeed. 0:22:10.613 --> 0:22:13.893 We need more dialogue, more discussion about these kinds of issues, 0:22:13.933 --> 0:22:17.453 you know, late and what the most anti gay city 0:22:17.653 --> 0:22:22.053 in Britain now is. It's London, and it's London because 0:22:23.053 --> 0:22:26.653 that's where most of the Muslim immigrants and the conservative 0:22:26.733 --> 0:22:29.213 Christian immigrants. Now I'm not anti religion, by the way, 0:22:29.253 --> 0:22:32.573 please don't take it this way. But this highlights the 0:22:32.613 --> 0:22:36.373 fact that in the multicultural society it produces challenges, and 0:22:36.453 --> 0:22:41.733 the challenges are around how to quote that key we 0:22:41.933 --> 0:22:46.373 way of being, we learn to live and let live, 0:22:46.573 --> 0:22:51.013 and how we foster the tolerance that is needed between 0:22:51.813 --> 0:22:54.973 the different communities that are here, be they gay, be 0:22:55.133 --> 0:22:56.693 they Jewish, for example. 0:22:57.453 --> 0:22:59.453 And again I'm going to back up. I came to 0:22:59.493 --> 0:23:03.693 think a long time ago that if you don't understand. 0:23:04.213 --> 0:23:08.293 If you have no knowledge of biblical matters of the time, 0:23:08.613 --> 0:23:12.053 you have no chance of understanding why there is conflict 0:23:12.573 --> 0:23:16.853 in the Middle East now which will probably endure forever, 0:23:17.293 --> 0:23:21.053 however long that might be. And again, if you import 0:23:21.293 --> 0:23:25.933 people who have that same conflict in their mind, deeply 0:23:26.053 --> 0:23:30.453 rooted in their beliefs which are the most important to them, 0:23:30.653 --> 0:23:34.093 and some of the comments that were made by imams 0:23:34.133 --> 0:23:40.373 and others in this documentary last night, we're most telling 0:23:40.413 --> 0:23:44.493 in this regard, then you're going to have even if 0:23:44.493 --> 0:23:47.173 you settle it down for a period of time, as 0:23:47.173 --> 0:23:49.293 it does in the Middle East, and then you're going 0:23:49.333 --> 0:23:53.613 to have continued conflict nevertheless or by beating the same 0:23:53.613 --> 0:23:56.653 old drum. 0:23:55.893 --> 0:23:59.453 Where you are, and it doesn't help to address the 0:23:59.493 --> 0:24:03.213 issue of what is it that then needs to happen, 0:24:03.373 --> 0:24:06.813 Because whether it's Europe, whether it's the United States, the 0:24:06.853 --> 0:24:10.933 Western world has been a destination for people from many 0:24:10.973 --> 0:24:14.853 cultures because the Western way of life is what actually 0:24:15.453 --> 0:24:19.733 attracts and draws people. And so the question then becomes, 0:24:19.773 --> 0:24:24.093 how do we make multicultural societies succeed? And one of 0:24:24.133 --> 0:24:26.653 the things that a group like the Human Rights Commission 0:24:26.813 --> 0:24:32.013 could do, I believe more aggressively is to actually encourage 0:24:32.093 --> 0:24:36.493 dialogue between the different groups who now make up our society. 0:24:36.533 --> 0:24:38.893 I mean, and that's talking about the Human Rights Commission. 0:24:38.893 --> 0:24:41.373 But if we just go back to your Middle East example, 0:24:42.573 --> 0:24:46.733 I have to say that I've been somewhat dismayed at 0:24:46.773 --> 0:24:52.893 the lack of courage from our universities late in, for example, 0:24:53.013 --> 0:24:58.453 facilitating debates and dialogue around the Middle Eastern situation. They 0:24:58.493 --> 0:25:02.213 haven't had the hotspa to do that. And yet again, 0:25:02.253 --> 0:25:04.573 I would be looking to our universities to be taking 0:25:04.613 --> 0:25:08.213 a more aggressive role in terms of facilitating discussions and 0:25:08.333 --> 0:25:12.293 debates around these critical issues which, at the end of 0:25:12.373 --> 0:25:17.093 the day, whether whether we want to admit it or not, 0:25:17.373 --> 0:25:22.053 deeply impact on certain communities here and about which there 0:25:22.093 --> 0:25:24.573 is widespread interest. Why are the university is taking a 0:25:24.613 --> 0:25:29.173 more active role in facilitating dialogue between different groups and opinions. 0:25:29.573 --> 0:25:32.573 I think the answer to that's fairly simple, and I'm 0:25:32.573 --> 0:25:35.813 glad you've redirected, because we were going to get there eventually. 0:25:36.453 --> 0:25:39.173 Let me suggest to you that what culture is the 0:25:39.613 --> 0:25:43.493 is the real answer to that? Included in what culture, 0:25:43.533 --> 0:25:47.053 of course, is a DEI that we're all now familiar with, 0:25:47.413 --> 0:25:52.493 And I would imagine that considering your studies in politics 0:25:52.493 --> 0:25:55.293 and your experience, et cetera. Like me, you've watched it 0:25:55.413 --> 0:26:01.333 develop in America. That is what culture headquarters and transmit 0:26:01.413 --> 0:26:03.173 itself to the rest of the world, and it's been 0:26:03.773 --> 0:26:06.053 The most amazing thing to me is not that it's happened, 0:26:06.093 --> 0:26:09.213 but how quickly it has happened and how it's taken 0:26:09.253 --> 0:26:14.173 over the universities in this country the same as other universities. Now, 0:26:14.453 --> 0:26:18.973 if anybody suggested in a university suggested they do that, 0:26:19.093 --> 0:26:21.933 I think they would be swamped with objection, to put 0:26:21.933 --> 0:26:28.493 it mildly, from other members of the university staff. If not, 0:26:29.053 --> 0:26:33.893 it would transmit to the demonstrations from students and you 0:26:33.893 --> 0:26:37.053 would have, as we've seen on television time and time 0:26:37.093 --> 0:26:40.373 again from the States and Australia, you'd have violence in 0:26:40.413 --> 0:26:40.933 the streets. 0:26:42.293 --> 0:26:46.653 And I wonder whether there is not here an issue 0:26:46.693 --> 0:26:52.733 around leadership, because, for example, if a university were to 0:26:52.973 --> 0:26:55.973 hold a function, let's say, exploring the Middle East conflict 0:26:55.973 --> 0:27:02.773 and hearing from both sides of this dreadful suffering, and 0:27:03.093 --> 0:27:05.253 the university was to shut that down, then one of 0:27:05.293 --> 0:27:07.853