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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the Attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US Now the

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Speaker 1: Laighton Smith podcast Power by news.

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Speaker 2: Talks it B.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to podcast two hundred and fifty two for August

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Speaker 3: twenty one, twenty twenty four. Centerpiece in two five to

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Speaker 3: two is a lengthy discussion with Stephen Rainbow, the newly

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Speaker 3: appointed Chief of the Human Rights Commission. Arguably the most

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Speaker 3: critical issue involves the right to freedom of speech based

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Speaker 3: on freedom of thought. Just how important freedom of speech

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Speaker 3: is is reflected in headlines and stories from all over

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Speaker 3: the planet, specifically those countries known as the West or

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Speaker 3: Democratic countries. Virtually every day you will find if you

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Speaker 3: go looking, and sometimes you don't even have to look for,

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Speaker 3: you'll find examples of the battles that are underway in

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Speaker 3: various parts of the world. For example, from this week's

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Speaker 3: Spectator Australia comes the story of Dave Pellow. Dave Pellow

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Speaker 3: is the founder of CSA Church and State Australia. He

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Speaker 3: faces a complaint put before the Queensland Human Rights Commission

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Speaker 3: accusing him of racism and vilification. He is being forced

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Speaker 3: into a legal battle after he replaced the Welcomed country

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Speaker 3: message with some twenty four to one church and state

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Speaker 3: conferences led by Pello open with the ode to God's

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Speaker 3: ownership of the land instead of the now common welcome

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Speaker 3: to country message. Explaining reasons for the allegations, he said,

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Speaker 3: I quote Psalm twenty four to one, which contradicts the

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Speaker 3: claims of Aboriginal religion that the spiritual entity it calls

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Speaker 3: country requires deceased ancestors to permit someone's arrival or travel

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Speaker 3: through it. If that's racist, he asks, isn't criticizing Christian

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Speaker 3: belief's racism too. The complaint also found fault with Dave's

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Speaker 3: thirty minute presentation. Pello allegedly failed to fall in line

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Speaker 3: and give voice and visibility to events such as invasion Day.

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Speaker 3: You get the picture. We seem to be in a

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Speaker 3: similar situation in New Zealand with regard to similar matters,

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Speaker 3: the status of water being the latest that is a

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Speaker 3: subject to shall we say, different opinions. But before we

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Speaker 3: get to David Rainbow, there is another matter that I

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Speaker 3: want to raise I received yesterday morning a press release,

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Speaker 3: a media release from the University of Auckland. Does climate

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Speaker 3: reporting make a difference? Let me quote Some of the

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Speaker 3: New Zealand's biggest companies submitted their first mandatory climate related

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Speaker 3: disclosures this year, but a new study shows disclosure does

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Speaker 3: not guarantee better behavior. This year, New Zealand became among

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Speaker 3: the first countries in the world to force note the

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Speaker 3: word force their largest companies and financial institutions, about two

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Speaker 3: hundred in all, to disclose their climate related risks and

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Speaker 3: opportunities in their annual reports and make regulatory filings. But

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Speaker 3: do these kinds of initiatives improve environmental outcomes? A new

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Speaker 3: study co authored by Professor Chald D. Villier from the

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Speaker 3: University of Auckland Business School finds that mandating social and

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Speaker 3: environmental disclosures does not improve business's performance. What a surprise.

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Speaker 3: Professor DeVillier and his fellow researchers examined the effects of

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Speaker 3: a prominent EU sustainability reporting initiative, which came into effect

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Speaker 3: in twenty seventeen. The legislation requires large companies to report

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Speaker 3: their performance on non financial matters, including environmental issues, social

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Speaker 3: and employee matters, human rights, anti corruption, and bribery. But

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Speaker 3: after analyzing a cross country sample of businesses between two

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Speaker 3: thousand nine and twenty twenty, the researchers found that social

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Speaker 3: and environmental outcomes did not meaningfully improve after the directive.

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Speaker 3: Despite the regulatory push, European companies did not exhibit substantial

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Speaker 3: improvements in their social and environmental performance. The findings are surprising,

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Speaker 3: says debilias It's important that we don't assume that if

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Speaker 3: we force companies to disclose information, they are actually going

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Speaker 3: to do better by the environment and people. One could

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Speaker 3: make many, many comments on this. This is a prime

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Speaker 3: example of the authoritarian tentacles that we're being subjected to

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Speaker 3: on a greater basis in all areas of life. It

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Speaker 3: is social activism when it comes to matters to do

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Speaker 3: with climate. Actually let me let me bypass that and

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Speaker 3: be more inclusive. The legislation requires large companies to report

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Speaker 3: their performance on non financial matters, including I'm repeating environmental issues,

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Speaker 3: social and employee matters, human rights, anti corruption, and bribery,

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Speaker 3: most of which, if not all, has very little to do,

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Speaker 3: if anything, with what a company's job is. What the

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Speaker 3: purpose of a company is There is much more to

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Speaker 3: be said on this, and I'm going to include it

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Speaker 3: at the end of the podcast because it will help

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Speaker 3: explain why this approach to life is a nonsense. And

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Speaker 3: by the way, Stephen Rainbow makes commentary on an aspect

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Speaker 3: of this as you'll see, not so much of business,

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Speaker 3: but an aspect of universities and what their role is

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Speaker 3: or is not, and where their failings are, of which

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Speaker 3: there are many. But let me leave you with a

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Speaker 3: headlined at the moment, want more freedom of speech, try

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Speaker 3: less government, Stephen Rainbow. Next, there are essential fat nutrients

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Speaker 3: that we need in our diet as the body cart

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Speaker 3: manufacture them. These are omega three and Amega six fatty acids.

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Speaker 3: Equisine is a combination of fish oil and virgin evening

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Speaker 3: primrose oil, a formula that provides an excellent source of

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Speaker 3: Omega three and Omega six fatty acids in their naturally

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Speaker 3: existing ratios. The omega six from evening primrose oil assists

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Speaker 3: the omega three fish oil to be more effective. Equisine

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Speaker 3: is a high quality fish oil supplement enriched with evening

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Speaker 3: primrose oil that works synergistically for comprehensive health support. Source

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Speaker 3: from the deep sea sardines. Anchovisa magrol provide essential Amiga

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Speaker 3: three fatty acids in their purest form without any internal

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Speaker 3: organs or toxins. Every batch is tested for its purity

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Speaker 3: before it's allowed to be sold. Equisine supports cells to

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Speaker 3: be flexible, so important to support healthy blood flow and

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Speaker 3: overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood balance and mental

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Speaker 3: clarity and focus in children, all the way to supporting

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Speaker 3: stiff joints, mental focus, health and healthy eyes as we

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Speaker 3: get older. Equas in as a premium high grade fish

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Speaker 3: and evening primrose oil to be taken in addition to

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Speaker 3: a healthy diet and is only available from pharmacies and

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Speaker 3: health stores. Always read the label and users directed and

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Speaker 3: if symptoms persist, see your healthcare professional. Farmer Broker Auckland.

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Speaker 3: The Human Rights Commission is an independent Crown entity established

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Speaker 3: under the Human Rights Ack and the Crown Entities Act.

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Speaker 3: The Commission works with the government and civil society to

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Speaker 3: advocate and promote respect for human rights and to promote

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Speaker 3: harmonious relations in New Zealand. As set outs in Section

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Speaker 3: nineteen of the Human Rights Act, the Commission has a

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Speaker 3: duty to carry out its functions independently of the government.

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Speaker 3: Section five of the Human Rights Act provides that the

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Speaker 3: Commission's primary functions are no advocates and promote respect for

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Speaker 3: and understanding and depreciation of human rights in New Zealand society.

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Speaker 3: Encourage the maintenance and development of harmonious relations between individuals

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Speaker 3: and among the diverse groups in New Zealand society. To

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Speaker 3: promote racial equality and cultural diversity. To promote equal employment opportunities,

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Speaker 3: including pay equity. To promote and protect the full and

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Speaker 3: equal enjoyment of human rights by persons with disabilities. Functions

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Speaker 3: of the Chief Commissioner include chairing the Commission and leading

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Speaker 3: discussions of the Commission, except when it is the function

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Speaker 3: of a Commissioner to do so. Ensuring that the activities

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Speaker 3: undertaken in the performance of the Commission's functions are consistent

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Speaker 3: with the strategic direction and other determinations of the Commission,

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Speaker 3: which one presumes vary from time to time. And ensuring

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Speaker 3: that the Commission is effective and efficient in carrying out

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Speaker 3: its functions. Now I have to say that those functions

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Speaker 3: of the Chief Commissioner sound well open to interpretation, a

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Speaker 3: little vague maybe so. Stephen Rainbow, congratulations on your appointment

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Speaker 3: welcome to the Latensmith Podcast. I'm appreciative of the fact

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Speaker 3: that you made the time available. How do you, as

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Speaker 3: a first question, how do you interpret your role as

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Speaker 3: the Chief Commissioner of the New Zealand Human Rights Commission.

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Speaker 2: First of all, thank you Layton for the opportunity to

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Speaker 2: appear on your podcast and to have this discussion. And

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Speaker 2: can I say it's probably something of a relief to

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Speaker 2: be able to talk about things in a little more

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Speaker 2: detail than the sound bites which have dominated discussion around

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Speaker 2: these appointments to date, So really look forward to that opportunity.

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Speaker 2: The Human Rights Commission was established in seventy seven and

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Speaker 2: so I hope it's not too use a response to

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Speaker 2: say that as it heads to its fiftieth birthday and

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven, when the new group of commissioners will

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Speaker 2: be in charge, I think it's a really good opportunity

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Speaker 2: to actually address precisely your question, which is what are

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Speaker 2: the strategic priorities of the Commission? What are the key

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Speaker 2: human rights issues that we are facing as a country,

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Speaker 2: And if I could just give you a couple of

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Speaker 2: immediate perspectives on that from where I come from. Apart

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Speaker 2: from the fact that there are real challenges around issues

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Speaker 2: like the impact on human rights from artificial intelligence. For example,

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Speaker 2: if you look at the international literature on human rights,

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Speaker 2: things like AI loom very large. My first point, my

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Speaker 2: second point. I suspect that the context for this review

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Speaker 2: of our strategic priorities and our work over the years

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Speaker 2: ahead needs ideally to be focused on how we go

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Speaker 2: about and what role we might have in fostering the

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Speaker 2: social cohesion which seems to have been lost. And I

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Speaker 2: say that because there is nothing that makes human rights

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Speaker 2: more vulnerable than a divided, polarized society. I've spent a

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Speaker 2: good part latent of my adult life exploring and researching history,

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Speaker 2: in particular the Holocaust, and it really alarms me to

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Speaker 2: see some of the patterns that occur in societies where

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Speaker 2: totalitarianism and authoritarianism flourish, because one of those patterns is

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Speaker 2: a polarized and divided society, whether it's the Soviets in

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventeen, or Russia, I shou'd say in nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 2: whether it's a Nazis in Germany in the early thirties.

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Speaker 2: And I think we've got a real role, and I

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Speaker 2: can't see anyone else in such a strong position to

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Speaker 2: actually look at what we need to do as a

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Speaker 2: nation to foster social cohesion and perhaps to focus more

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Speaker 2: on what it is that we have in common rather

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Speaker 2: than what separates us.

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Speaker 3: You, as I read the Commission, and your position as

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Speaker 3: chief is independent of the government and is meant to

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Speaker 3: operate that way. Where does it leave you with regard

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Speaker 3: to advice to the government, either when asked for or

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Speaker 3: even when not so.

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Speaker 2: On the point of political independence, I just want to

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Speaker 2: tell you very briefly about my background later, which is

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Speaker 2: that I helped to form the Green Party in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety and I was the first person elected a New

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Speaker 2: Zealand and a Green ticket, and I was a Wellington

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Speaker 2: City councilor for nine years. Subsequently, I have worked with

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Speaker 2: people across the political spectrum to progress a range of issues, including,

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Speaker 2: for example, the funding of the City rail Link, Auban's

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Speaker 2: underground railway. All of these activities that I've been involved

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Speaker 2: in have been dependent on being able to work with

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Speaker 2: people across the political spectrum, and I would hope that's

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons I've been appointed to this role.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't answer your question. The fact is that this

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Speaker 2: is an independent statutory role and one of the things

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Speaker 2: that I will have to use very judiciously is the

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Speaker 2: potential to influence public debate around issues that I think

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Speaker 2: government should be addressing. And I might give you an

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Speaker 2: example of that if I may, although I need to

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Speaker 2: emphasize I haven't even met with the Commission yet and

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Speaker 2: I don't start in the role for a couple of

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Speaker 2: months yet. If we look at what's happened in Australia

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Speaker 2: as a result of the Middle East conflict, Prime Minister

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Speaker 2: Albanesi recently decried the fact that the level of social intolerance,

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Speaker 2: the destruction of social cohesion, the amount of violence and

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Speaker 2: protest I really have led to a most unfortunate situation

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Speaker 2: in Australia, and he has as one of the results

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Speaker 2: of that appointed and emissary on anti Semitism. If I

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Speaker 2: look at what's happening in New Zealand, I think it's

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Speaker 2: not far removed, at least in our major cities, from

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Speaker 2: what has happened in Australia. And I think one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I might, for example, want to pursue

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Speaker 2: when I get my feet under the desk is talking

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Speaker 2: an advert advocating to this government that we need to

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Speaker 2: do something more active in the space of fighting anti

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Speaker 2: Semitism as has occurred in Australia of late.

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Speaker 3: As far as you're concerned, what has led to that

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Speaker 3: situation arising?

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Speaker 2: That situation has arisen because of people's intense feelings about

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Speaker 2: what is happening in the Middle East, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's completely understandable. It's also arisen from the fact that

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Speaker 2: we now have a far more diverse society than we've

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Speaker 2: had in the past, with significant numbers of people from

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Speaker 2: communities that have a direct relationship to what's happening in

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Speaker 2: the Middle East. And I think that that helps to

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Speaker 2: explain why that has emerged. But there's also a sense,

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Speaker 2: perhaps if we were to try and look at this analytically,

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Speaker 2: that it's hard to identify at the moment a cause

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Speaker 2: that's perhaps more high profile and more immediate, with suffering

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Speaker 2: is so evident than what's happening in the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: It's far more understandable that people want to go out

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Speaker 2: and protest about that than about the fact that you

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Speaker 2: know that people are getting thumped in their shops in Auckland,

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Speaker 2: for example, when they turn up to work because of

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Speaker 2: the antisocial activities happening there. So I think that's I

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Speaker 2: think it is a result of those sorts of factors.

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Speaker 2: I guess the other thing is that we're possibly a

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Speaker 2: little selective about what it is that we do protest

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Speaker 2: about in the Middle East because it's been such a

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Speaker 2: long or seems like such a long conflict has exacerbated

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Speaker 2: these tensions. But I do note that at the moment,

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Speaker 2: for example, that Hindu villages and Bangladesh are being burned

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Speaker 2: to the ground, but we're not seeing protests about that.

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Speaker 2: So we have this because we're part of the Western world.

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Speaker 2: We have this intense interest in what's happening in Israel

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Speaker 2: in particular, and I don't think that's going to change,

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Speaker 2: but it has created a situation where, for example, the

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Speaker 2: increase in anti Semitic incidents in New Zealand has increased

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Speaker 2: somewhat dramatically since last October the seventh.

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Speaker 3: You suggested that you didn't see a headline over the

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Speaker 3: top of all this. Let me make a suggestion of one.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to have a discussion like this without

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Speaker 3: being controversial to some extent, depending on the on the recipient,

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Speaker 3: of course, but I'm going to suggest to you that

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Speaker 3: the situation. Actually, I want to back up. Last night,

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Speaker 3: quite by accident, we came across a documentary on.

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Speaker 1: This exacts.

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Speaker 3: No on this exact situation in the Middle East on

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Speaker 3: Sky Australia, and it was it was basically it was

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Speaker 3: a documentary, but it was a Q and A and

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Speaker 3: the journalist was was doing an extremely good job of

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Speaker 3: talking to people on on of all of all attitudes

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Speaker 3: involved in the violence that now exists in Australia, that

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Speaker 3: you are rightfully concerned about happening here. And that led

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Speaker 3: me to confirm something that I that I'd formulated not

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Speaker 3: very long ago. And I'm going to suggest to you

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Speaker 3: that the countries that we both live in different to

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Speaker 3: different levels or different extremes at this point of time.

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Speaker 3: But the countries we both live in, Australia and New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: the days of multiculturalism are over. Once upon a time

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Speaker 3: it was possible to have a multicultural society that ran smoothly.

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Speaker 3: Now I don't believe it is anymore. That to me

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Speaker 3: is the result of immigration policies and people of fractured

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Speaker 3: cultures or fractured relationships to enter the country in increasing numbers.

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Speaker 3: And when you do that you're going to get yourself

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Speaker 3: from You're going to get yourself into trouble just very quickly.

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Speaker 3: I was quite young at the time, but growing up

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Speaker 3: in Sydney, I remember distinctly the Czechoslovakian division in Sydney

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Speaker 3: in particular, where there were where there were bombs planted

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Speaker 3: in various homes and offices, and there were people blown up, etc.

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Speaker 3: Because they came from the same background where this problem

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Speaker 3: exists in the first place.

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Speaker 2: You say, well, later, and I need to be very

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Speaker 2: explicit about the fact that I think that multiculturalism brings

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Speaker 2: with it many advantages, not least of which is that

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Speaker 2: my partner, for example, is an immigrant. But I think

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Speaker 2: that the question might be perhaps better put as if

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Speaker 2: we are, and we indeed are multicultural societies, if we

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Speaker 2: are to have successful multicultural societies, then what is it

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Speaker 2: that we need to do to ensure the success of

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Speaker 2: that multiculturalism. And I guess one of the things that

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Speaker 2: I think we need to do a far better job

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Speaker 2: of is dialogue between the different commune nities who now

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Speaker 2: make up New Zealand. So I'll give you an example

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Speaker 2: if I may, and.

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Speaker 3: Just before you do that, that'd lose your place, suggest

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Speaker 3: that importing the problems, and the problems only exist when

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Speaker 3: there's more than one attitude, if you like, importing the

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Speaker 3: problems that can't be settled from whence they came is

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Speaker 3: simply inviting the same issue to exist here or wherever

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Speaker 3: it may be.

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Speaker 2: Well, I don't think we're going to change the fact

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Speaker 2: that we're a multicultural society, and so the question then

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Speaker 2: becomes not the question that you're asking, but rather how

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Speaker 2: do we make a multicultural society succeed? And I think

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Speaker 2: that's something that a Human Rights Commission, for example, can

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Speaker 2: play a role and fulfilling. I guess the example that

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Speaker 2: I was going to give of where these issues are

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Speaker 2: a challenge, and this is not to say that multicultural

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Speaker 2: is not desirable, is that we had as our neighbor

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Speaker 2: on the North Shore, my husband and I a Liberal

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Speaker 2: National MP who knew us personally and who voted against

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Speaker 2: same sex marriage. And I went up to Jonathan. I said, Jonathan,

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Speaker 2: what on earth are you doing? And he said, the

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Speaker 2: only issue that the Korean community in Northcote had mobilized

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Speaker 2: against in his years in parliament was against same sex marriage.

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Speaker 2: And there were six thousand I think there was the

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Speaker 2: figure Korean people there, and he needed to respect their views.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm not saying that's wrong, Please don't take it

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Speaker 2: that way. I'm just saying I wonder, given that we

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Speaker 2: have human rights progress for gay people, which has been

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Speaker 2: quite what there's been a complete transformation in my lifetime,

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Speaker 2: what effort are we making to talk to new immigrant

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Speaker 2: communities about issues like that going to make multicultural succeed.

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Speaker 2: We need more dialogue, more discussion about these kinds of issues,

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Speaker 2: you know, late and what the most anti gay city

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Speaker 2: in Britain now is. It's London, and it's London because

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Speaker 2: that's where most of the Muslim immigrants and the conservative

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Speaker 2: Christian immigrants. Now I'm not anti religion, by the way,

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Speaker 2: please don't take it this way. But this highlights the

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Speaker 2: fact that in the multicultural society it produces challenges, and

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Speaker 2: the challenges are around how to quote that key we

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Speaker 2: way of being, we learn to live and let live,

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Speaker 2: and how we foster the tolerance that is needed between

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Speaker 2: the different communities that are here, be they gay, be

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Speaker 2: they Jewish, for example.

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Speaker 3: And again I'm going to back up. I came to

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Speaker 3: think a long time ago that if you don't understand.

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Speaker 3: If you have no knowledge of biblical matters of the time,

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Speaker 3: you have no chance of understanding why there is conflict

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Speaker 3: in the Middle East now which will probably endure forever,

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Speaker 3: however long that might be. And again, if you import

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Speaker 3: people who have that same conflict in their mind, deeply

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Speaker 3: rooted in their beliefs which are the most important to them,

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Speaker 3: and some of the comments that were made by imams

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Speaker 3: and others in this documentary last night, we're most telling

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Speaker 3: in this regard, then you're going to have even if

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Speaker 3: you settle it down for a period of time, as

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Speaker 3: it does in the Middle East, and then you're going

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Speaker 3: to have continued conflict nevertheless or by beating the same

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Speaker 3: old drum.

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Speaker 2: Where you are, and it doesn't help to address the

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Speaker 2: issue of what is it that then needs to happen,

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Speaker 2: Because whether it's Europe, whether it's the United States, the

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Speaker 2: Western world has been a destination for people from many

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Speaker 2: cultures because the Western way of life is what actually

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Speaker 2: attracts and draws people. And so the question then becomes,

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Speaker 2: how do we make multicultural societies succeed? And one of

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Speaker 2: the things that a group like the Human Rights Commission

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Speaker 2: could do, I believe more aggressively is to actually encourage

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Speaker 2: dialogue between the different groups who now make up our society.

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Speaker 2: I mean, and that's talking about the Human Rights Commission.

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Speaker 2: But if we just go back to your Middle East example,

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Speaker 2: I have to say that I've been somewhat dismayed at

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Speaker 2: the lack of courage from our universities late in, for example,

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Speaker 2: facilitating debates and dialogue around the Middle Eastern situation. They

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Speaker 2: haven't had the hotspa to do that. And yet again,

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Speaker 2: I would be looking to our universities to be taking

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Speaker 2: a more aggressive role in terms of facilitating discussions and

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Speaker 2: debates around these critical issues which, at the end of

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Speaker 2: the day, whether whether we want to admit it or not,

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Speaker 2: deeply impact on certain communities here and about which there

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Speaker 2: is widespread interest. Why are the university is taking a

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Speaker 2: more active role in facilitating dialogue between different groups and opinions.

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Speaker 3: I think the answer to that's fairly simple, and I'm

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Speaker 3: glad you've redirected, because we were going to get there eventually.

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Speaker 3: Let me suggest to you that what culture is the

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Speaker 3: is the real answer to that? Included in what culture,

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Speaker 3: of course, is a DEI that we're all now familiar with,

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Speaker 3: And I would imagine that considering your studies in politics

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Speaker 3: and your experience, et cetera. Like me, you've watched it

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Speaker 3: develop in America. That is what culture headquarters and transmit

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Speaker 3: itself to the rest of the world, and it's been

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Speaker 3: The most amazing thing to me is not that it's happened,

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Speaker 3: but how quickly it has happened and how it's taken

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Speaker 3: over the universities in this country the same as other universities. Now,

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Speaker 3: if anybody suggested in a university suggested they do that,

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Speaker 3: I think they would be swamped with objection, to put

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Speaker 3: it mildly, from other members of the university staff. If not,

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Speaker 3: it would transmit to the demonstrations from students and you

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Speaker 3: would have, as we've seen on television time and time

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Speaker 3: again from the States and Australia, you'd have violence in

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Speaker 3: the streets.

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Speaker 2: And I wonder whether there is not here an issue

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Speaker 2: around leadership, because, for example, if a university were to

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Speaker 2: hold a function, let's say, exploring the Middle East conflict

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Speaker 2: and hearing from both sides of this dreadful suffering, and

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Speaker 2: the university was to shut that down, then one of

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Speaker 2: the things that I would consider doing as the chief

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Speaker 2: Human Rights commissioners to challenge the university about that, and

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Speaker 2: I think that there is a role for more muscular

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Speaker 2: leadership around actually saying we need to discuss and debate

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Speaker 2: and have dialogue around these issues if we're not to

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Speaker 2: be shut into our self perpetuating bubbles, regardless of what

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00:27:28,653 --> 00:27:31,613
Speaker 2: that bubble might be, because we're not going to find

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Speaker 2: a way forward as a country if we're going to

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Speaker 2: be divided and polarized and not challenged on our views.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I'll go back to my experience as

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Speaker 2: a gay man latent, but every bit of progress that's

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Speaker 2: been made in this remarkable transformation of the lives of

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Speaker 2: gay people in New Zealand has been the result of

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Speaker 2: people like fran Wilde standing up, advocating for a perspective,

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Speaker 2: building alliances, having dialogue with people. When I was involved

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Speaker 2: in the same sex marriage campaign, I had to go

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Speaker 2: and talk to people who I wouldn't normally be politically

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Speaker 2: or or value in any way around values be aligned with.

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Speaker 2: But you had to build alliances. And this is how

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Speaker 2: democracy works, this is how free society works, this is

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Speaker 2: how free speech works. And it seems that we've lost

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Speaker 2: courage around some of those qualities and I think that

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Speaker 2: we need more challenging of the dissipation of the courage

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Speaker 2: to have these difficult conversations and to explore differences and

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Speaker 2: to find a way forward. And I would hope that

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Speaker 2: in the role that I'm going to shortly begin, that

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Speaker 2: I might play some small part and facilitating that dialogue

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Speaker 2: that is actually underpinning of a free society that we

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Speaker 2: are so lucky to be living in.

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Speaker 3: Want to quote you something. We need heroes, people who

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Speaker 3: can inspire us, help shape us morally, spur us onto

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Speaker 3: purposeful action, and from time to time were called on

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Speaker 3: to be those heroes leaders for others, either it a

434
00:29:08,053 --> 00:29:13,533
Speaker 3: small day to day weight or on the world's largest stage.

435
00:29:14,213 --> 00:29:17,293
Speaker 3: At this time in America and in the rest of

436
00:29:17,333 --> 00:29:21,173
Speaker 3: the world, we seem to need moral leadership especially, but

437
00:29:21,293 --> 00:29:25,173
Speaker 3: the need for moral inspiration is ever present. Are you

438
00:29:25,813 --> 00:29:26,933
Speaker 3: do you have hero in you?

439
00:29:28,853 --> 00:29:31,853
Speaker 2: I would like to think so. And you know, this

440
00:29:32,013 --> 00:29:36,173
Speaker 2: is going to be my last big at my last gig, Layton,

441
00:29:36,413 --> 00:29:40,933
Speaker 2: and so I would certainly hope. So there's a huge

442
00:29:41,093 --> 00:29:43,853
Speaker 2: hole that goes with trying to step into those roles.

443
00:29:44,493 --> 00:29:49,013
Speaker 2: But if I look back, well, look, I'll take it

444
00:29:49,053 --> 00:29:51,453
Speaker 2: to extremes On the one hand, I had a grandfather

445
00:29:51,493 --> 00:29:55,093
Speaker 2: who fought because he was a working class Englishman every

446
00:29:55,173 --> 00:29:59,413
Speaker 2: day from September nineteen thirty nine through to nineteen forty

447
00:29:59,453 --> 00:30:03,453
Speaker 2: five for six years in the war, and he was

448
00:30:03,493 --> 00:30:06,373
Speaker 2: a working class autodidact. But he had a picture of

449
00:30:06,453 --> 00:30:08,893
Speaker 2: Churchill on his wall, and I I guess one of

450
00:30:08,893 --> 00:30:11,973
Speaker 2: the great sadnesses I think in recent times is that

451
00:30:12,013 --> 00:30:15,613
Speaker 2: the heroes that some of us have been inspired by,

452
00:30:15,653 --> 00:30:20,853
Speaker 2: like Churchill, have been derided as part of the attempt to,

453
00:30:22,333 --> 00:30:28,813
Speaker 2: I suppose, downplay the significance of significant figures like him.

454
00:30:28,893 --> 00:30:31,373
Speaker 2: So I have these figures in my mind and I

455
00:30:31,453 --> 00:30:33,533
Speaker 2: hope that they will give me the strength and the

456
00:30:33,573 --> 00:30:36,293
Speaker 2: hooks part to actually do what is needed in this role.

457
00:30:37,333 --> 00:30:40,213
Speaker 2: Because I think your quote is very apposite. I don't

458
00:30:40,893 --> 00:30:46,293
Speaker 2: obviously see myself and see myself as being the sole

459
00:30:46,373 --> 00:30:48,453
Speaker 2: player in that space. But if I could make even

460
00:30:48,493 --> 00:30:51,973
Speaker 2: a small contribution to that kind of leadership in New Zealand,

461
00:30:52,053 --> 00:30:55,013
Speaker 2: then I would feel that the role had been a success.

462
00:30:55,053 --> 00:31:00,933
Speaker 2: And if I can help reduce suffering, constrain evil, offering

463
00:31:01,053 --> 00:31:04,573
Speaker 2: encouragement to people, even in a small way on a

464
00:31:04,613 --> 00:31:06,813
Speaker 2: day to day basis, while in this role, then I

465
00:31:06,853 --> 00:31:12,453
Speaker 2: feel it will have been a success. What is evil, Well,

466
00:31:12,453 --> 00:31:15,413
Speaker 2: we've seen evil. We don't. Actually, it's not an abstract question.

467
00:31:15,533 --> 00:31:19,413
Speaker 2: We've seen evil later and as I said earlier, I've

468
00:31:19,453 --> 00:31:23,093
Speaker 2: spent much in laid out life studying what happens with

469
00:31:23,173 --> 00:31:29,933
Speaker 2: tyranny and oppression. And we might easily point to the

470
00:31:29,933 --> 00:31:35,733
Speaker 2: Holocaust and the essentially the industrialized massacre of Jewish people,

471
00:31:35,933 --> 00:31:40,333
Speaker 2: probably the greatest crime in human history. But then we

472
00:31:40,453 --> 00:31:46,213
Speaker 2: might also look at the fact that the Soviets, so

473
00:31:46,333 --> 00:31:53,053
Speaker 2: for example, my son's great grandfather was one of two

474
00:31:53,093 --> 00:31:57,893
Speaker 2: million people shot during the Great Terror under Stalin from

475
00:31:57,933 --> 00:32:01,053
Speaker 2: thirty seven to thirty nine in the Soviet Union. So

476
00:32:02,093 --> 00:32:03,853
Speaker 2: we know what evil is. We've seen it in the

477
00:32:03,893 --> 00:32:07,693
Speaker 2: twentieth century, and we need to be very vigilant about

478
00:32:07,693 --> 00:32:11,413
Speaker 2: it civilized and I guess the view that I bring

479
00:32:11,453 --> 00:32:15,453
Speaker 2: to this role is that civilization is very fragile and

480
00:32:15,493 --> 00:32:17,853
Speaker 2: it's not something we should be taking for granted.

481
00:32:18,213 --> 00:32:24,293
Speaker 3: So you'd agree with Reagan that freedom democracy is only

482
00:32:24,373 --> 00:32:27,973
Speaker 3: one to think of the accuracy of it is only

483
00:32:28,013 --> 00:32:31,573
Speaker 3: one generation separated from barbarity will do.

484
00:32:32,853 --> 00:32:34,733
Speaker 2: Well if we look at the number of people living

485
00:32:34,773 --> 00:32:37,573
Speaker 2: in free societies in the world, it's actually diminished in

486
00:32:37,653 --> 00:32:42,013
Speaker 2: recent years. So I think that living in a free

487
00:32:42,053 --> 00:32:46,733
Speaker 2: society and having the opportunity to express openly different views

488
00:32:46,773 --> 00:32:51,093
Speaker 2: and different opinions, you know, I constantly think about the

489
00:32:51,133 --> 00:32:54,813
Speaker 2: example of the Stazi in East Germany as recently as

490
00:32:54,933 --> 00:32:59,533
Speaker 2: the late eighties, where one in four people was an

491
00:32:59,573 --> 00:33:02,213
Speaker 2: informer for the Stasi, and if you said anything that

492
00:33:02,373 --> 00:33:06,253
Speaker 2: wasn't a part of the greed party line, you know,

493
00:33:06,333 --> 00:33:09,133
Speaker 2: you could well end up being incarcerated it or worse.

494
00:33:09,613 --> 00:33:12,893
Speaker 2: So I think that we are incredibly blessed to live

495
00:33:12,893 --> 00:33:16,173
Speaker 2: in a society where we're free to express our views,

496
00:33:16,173 --> 00:33:18,453
Speaker 2: and we need to capitalize on that to resolve some

497
00:33:18,533 --> 00:33:20,893
Speaker 2: of the real challenges that we face, and we need

498
00:33:20,933 --> 00:33:24,453
Speaker 2: to be more aggressive and actually having those debates and

499
00:33:24,493 --> 00:33:28,573
Speaker 2: those discussions to try and resolve some of the issues

500
00:33:28,613 --> 00:33:29,773
Speaker 2: that we are facing.

501
00:33:31,253 --> 00:33:35,333
Speaker 3: To wrap this portion of it up, maybe let me

502
00:33:35,413 --> 00:33:40,653
Speaker 3: just go back to DEI diversity, equity and inclusion and

503
00:33:41,613 --> 00:33:46,053
Speaker 3: the culture. Give me a brief opinion on your part of.

504
00:33:46,013 --> 00:33:54,813
Speaker 2: It, I guess rather than explicitly addressing that, Layton, I

505
00:33:55,013 --> 00:33:58,613
Speaker 2: would prefer to say that I think we need to

506
00:33:58,653 --> 00:34:04,133
Speaker 2: be very mindful of and pay far greater attention to

507
00:34:04,213 --> 00:34:08,853
Speaker 2: the values and views of the majority of people, the

508
00:34:08,933 --> 00:34:15,573
Speaker 2: common sense that ordinary people bring to their lives, the

509
00:34:15,613 --> 00:34:21,813
Speaker 2: fact that people in trades and skills have been considered

510
00:34:21,853 --> 00:34:24,893
Speaker 2: to be, as a result of education policy over a

511
00:34:24,933 --> 00:34:30,013
Speaker 2: long period, perhaps less worthy of listening to than people

512
00:34:30,013 --> 00:34:33,813
Speaker 2: who are university graduates. I think there's a great wisdom

513
00:34:33,813 --> 00:34:37,133
Speaker 2: and ordinary people, and I think we need to pay

514
00:34:37,213 --> 00:34:40,973
Speaker 2: far greater attention to that. And what's happening in societies now,

515
00:34:41,013 --> 00:34:44,813
Speaker 2: and I guess Britain would be an example, but possibly

516
00:34:44,853 --> 00:34:47,013
Speaker 2: in other parts of Europe as well, is that there's

517
00:34:47,093 --> 00:34:53,453
Speaker 2: a real backlash against the denigration of I guess the

518
00:34:53,493 --> 00:34:57,853
Speaker 2: people that Hillary Clinton called the deplorables, and we actually

519
00:34:57,853 --> 00:35:00,733
Speaker 2: do need to pay far more attention to ordinary people,

520
00:35:00,773 --> 00:35:05,173
Speaker 2: the majority of people, the silent people, because at the

521
00:35:05,333 --> 00:35:08,613
Speaker 2: end of the day, the society is made up of

522
00:35:08,613 --> 00:35:12,973
Speaker 2: of a huge range of people, and we mustn't only

523
00:35:13,013 --> 00:35:16,013
Speaker 2: think that there is one set of values and opinions

524
00:35:16,053 --> 00:35:17,133
Speaker 2: which are acceptable.

525
00:35:18,093 --> 00:35:21,533
Speaker 3: I'd suggest to you that you could spend your entire

526
00:35:21,693 --> 00:35:25,653
Speaker 3: duration in this position when you uptake it on that

527
00:35:25,693 --> 00:35:30,493
Speaker 3: particular front, without having time for anything else, such as

528
00:35:30,613 --> 00:35:32,013
Speaker 3: the current situation.

529
00:35:34,973 --> 00:35:37,573
Speaker 2: How about we actually take more time to tell stories

530
00:35:37,613 --> 00:35:39,533
Speaker 2: in this country about what it means to be a

531
00:35:39,573 --> 00:35:43,693
Speaker 2: New Zealander, about the stories of people with a Mildi

532
00:35:43,813 --> 00:35:50,533
Speaker 2: Paki pacifica, refugees from Afghanistan, and actually start to tell

533
00:35:50,573 --> 00:35:53,573
Speaker 2: these stories. And I know in places like Nelson they've

534
00:35:53,573 --> 00:35:56,413
Speaker 2: set up cultural conversations to try and facilitate some of

535
00:35:56,413 --> 00:35:58,853
Speaker 2: these discussions. Let's do more of that. Let's do more

536
00:35:58,853 --> 00:36:02,453
Speaker 2: of talking with each other and discussing and working out

537
00:36:02,453 --> 00:36:04,653
Speaker 2: what it is that we have in common, given that

538
00:36:04,693 --> 00:36:06,973
Speaker 2: there are only five million of us on these septed

539
00:36:07,053 --> 00:36:09,333
Speaker 2: aisles at the bottom of the world. World, Let's have

540
00:36:09,413 --> 00:36:13,573
Speaker 2: more stories, Let's have more conversations, and let's listen not

541
00:36:13,973 --> 00:36:19,053
Speaker 2: just to the to the the people who are more

542
00:36:19,133 --> 00:36:23,733
Speaker 2: inclined to express their views, for example, on social media,

543
00:36:24,693 --> 00:36:27,813
Speaker 2: but to actually listen to ordinary people going about their lives,

544
00:36:27,973 --> 00:36:33,453
Speaker 2: struggling with lives, great life's great challenges, and pay more

545
00:36:33,533 --> 00:36:38,533
Speaker 2: credence to the fundamental decency of New Zealanders and how

546
00:36:38,573 --> 00:36:41,253
Speaker 2: we might celebrate that and what it is that we

547
00:36:41,373 --> 00:36:42,453
Speaker 2: have in common.

548
00:36:43,133 --> 00:36:45,653
Speaker 3: On that or off the back of that, do you

549
00:36:45,693 --> 00:36:50,293
Speaker 3: consider that education is part of your flock?

550
00:36:52,053 --> 00:36:56,893
Speaker 2: In a word, not directly but I think that when

551
00:36:56,933 --> 00:37:01,213
Speaker 2: we look at the issues around the future of New

552
00:37:01,333 --> 00:37:04,693
Speaker 2: Zealand and the need for dialogue and discussion and debate

553
00:37:04,813 --> 00:37:08,453
Speaker 2: and research, then the universities have a critical role to play,

554
00:37:08,573 --> 00:37:13,893
Speaker 2: and I'm quite fascinated by how that they might be

555
00:37:13,893 --> 00:37:18,573
Speaker 2: better engaged in contributing to addressing some of the challenges

556
00:37:18,613 --> 00:37:22,093
Speaker 2: that we face later. So no, it's not part of

557
00:37:22,093 --> 00:37:25,053
Speaker 2: my brief but inasmuch as they have a role to

558
00:37:25,093 --> 00:37:30,293
Speaker 2: play when it comes to us addressing issues and facilitating discussions,

559
00:37:30,373 --> 00:37:34,813
Speaker 2: which is really what this is all about, then I

560
00:37:34,973 --> 00:37:37,533
Speaker 2: would like to think that the universities had a role

561
00:37:37,533 --> 00:37:41,293
Speaker 2: to play, and that I might engage with them about

562
00:37:41,453 --> 00:37:43,613
Speaker 2: the contribution they could make to that objective.

563
00:37:43,733 --> 00:37:46,253
Speaker 3: You know, we've got this. We've got this far, Stephen,

564
00:37:46,973 --> 00:37:50,693
Speaker 3: and no one, no one, neither of us has mentioned

565
00:37:50,773 --> 00:37:55,533
Speaker 3: the word speech, specifically free speech. Well, how do you

566
00:37:55,573 --> 00:37:59,293
Speaker 3: define free speech? Are there limitations on it and what

567
00:37:59,533 --> 00:38:01,533
Speaker 3: role does it have to play?

568
00:38:02,533 --> 00:38:08,173
Speaker 2: Well, at the risk of giving a rather simplistic view,

569
00:38:08,933 --> 00:38:14,373
Speaker 2: I think that free speech is the fundamental underpinning of

570
00:38:14,413 --> 00:38:19,253
Speaker 2: a free society and that any compromises on it need

571
00:38:19,333 --> 00:38:24,333
Speaker 2: to be extraordinarily well thought through and considered and so

572
00:38:24,493 --> 00:38:27,173
Speaker 2: I would be very much a champion of free speech

573
00:38:27,893 --> 00:38:32,493
Speaker 2: as the best way for society to discuss issues, to

574
00:38:32,573 --> 00:38:36,373
Speaker 2: bring issues, even that we might find quite deplorable, out

575
00:38:36,413 --> 00:38:40,253
Speaker 2: into the open, and to expose them to the sunlight,

576
00:38:40,373 --> 00:38:42,893
Speaker 2: and to debate them and to question them and to

577
00:38:43,013 --> 00:38:46,693
Speaker 2: challenge them for example. And I don't say I'm not

578
00:38:46,733 --> 00:38:49,813
Speaker 2: saying this with any value judgment. I'm just saying that

579
00:38:49,853 --> 00:38:54,333
Speaker 2: in response to recent events, I see Brian Tammocke, for example,

580
00:38:54,413 --> 00:38:58,893
Speaker 2: has said some anti gay comments. I am a gay man.

581
00:38:58,973 --> 00:39:03,053
Speaker 2: He is entirely entitled, in my opinion, to say those things.

582
00:39:03,453 --> 00:39:05,773
Speaker 2: But then I will challenge him to debate them or

583
00:39:05,773 --> 00:39:09,653
Speaker 2: not me personally. But although I could do, he needs

584
00:39:09,653 --> 00:39:12,533
Speaker 2: to be challenged and these issues debated, and that is

585
00:39:12,573 --> 00:39:14,533
Speaker 2: the way in which we will find the truth of

586
00:39:14,573 --> 00:39:17,893
Speaker 2: the matter. So I think once you start to compromise

587
00:39:17,973 --> 00:39:23,613
Speaker 2: free speech, you really start to chip away at one

588
00:39:23,693 --> 00:39:27,533
Speaker 2: of the fundamental underpinnings of a free society. And as

589
00:39:27,573 --> 00:39:32,773
Speaker 2: I have said repeatedly throughout this discussion, we are blessed

590
00:39:33,053 --> 00:39:36,933
Speaker 2: and privileged to live in a free society. Every advantage

591
00:39:36,973 --> 00:39:39,613
Speaker 2: that I have, for example, received as a gay man

592
00:39:39,653 --> 00:39:41,853
Speaker 2: as a result of living in a free society with

593
00:39:41,973 --> 00:39:45,533
Speaker 2: free speech, and I think any diminution of free speech

594
00:39:46,133 --> 00:39:48,933
Speaker 2: needs to be extraordinarily carefully thought about.

595
00:39:50,013 --> 00:39:53,493
Speaker 3: Do you think that there is a global struggle developed

596
00:39:53,613 --> 00:39:57,213
Speaker 3: or developing over the erosion of free speech among countries

597
00:39:57,293 --> 00:40:01,933
Speaker 3: that helped define help define this right.

598
00:40:03,293 --> 00:40:05,253
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a lot of things happening globally.

599
00:40:05,573 --> 00:40:08,693
Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by what's happening globally, whether it be an Europe,

600
00:40:08,733 --> 00:40:10,853
Speaker 2: whether it be in the States. And when I say globally,

601
00:40:10,893 --> 00:40:13,973
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the free world. And I don't think

602
00:40:14,053 --> 00:40:17,373
Speaker 2: that the trends are universal in any of those places.

603
00:40:17,413 --> 00:40:22,813
Speaker 2: There's some competing trends, and I think they're utterly fascinating

604
00:40:22,973 --> 00:40:27,333
Speaker 2: in terms of what's happening. So, for example, and again

605
00:40:27,693 --> 00:40:30,533
Speaker 2: I need to emphasize, I'm saying this as someone who

606
00:40:30,653 --> 00:40:33,973
Speaker 2: studied politics for forty years. I did my PhD actually

607
00:40:33,973 --> 00:40:37,493
Speaker 2: on the emergence of green parties. Later, but in the

608
00:40:37,573 --> 00:40:42,053
Speaker 2: last European elections, for example, young the first voters swung

609
00:40:42,053 --> 00:40:45,813
Speaker 2: heavily to the right. So when we say that there

610
00:40:45,813 --> 00:40:49,613
Speaker 2: are these battles going on, there's actually micro trends and

611
00:40:50,093 --> 00:40:54,493
Speaker 2: or perhaps broader trends as well that seem quite generationally influenced,

612
00:40:55,133 --> 00:41:00,653
Speaker 2: and I think therefore it's while it might be easy

613
00:41:00,693 --> 00:41:06,533
Speaker 2: to say that there is a trend towards opposing free speech,

614
00:41:06,573 --> 00:41:09,613
Speaker 2: that in fact there are other trends going on as well. Look,

615
00:41:09,653 --> 00:41:13,253
Speaker 2: the reality is social media, as toxic as it can be,

616
00:41:13,973 --> 00:41:18,653
Speaker 2: arguably provides the greatest level of free speech that any

617
00:41:18,733 --> 00:41:22,453
Speaker 2: civilization and history has ever enjoyed. So we've got the

618
00:41:22,493 --> 00:41:27,573
Speaker 2: democratization of speech through social media, for example. So there

619
00:41:27,573 --> 00:41:31,213
Speaker 2: are a range of trends going on. I guess rather

620
00:41:31,333 --> 00:41:34,693
Speaker 2: than saying that there is any one particular thing happening,

621
00:41:34,933 --> 00:41:36,733
Speaker 2: I would come back to the fact that we have

622
00:41:36,813 --> 00:41:39,373
Speaker 2: a duty, and particularly at the Human Rights Commission, to

623
00:41:39,613 --> 00:41:44,813
Speaker 2: vigorously defend free speech because of the fact that that

624
00:41:45,013 --> 00:41:49,213
Speaker 2: is so essential to addressing the issues and finding a

625
00:41:49,253 --> 00:41:52,853
Speaker 2: way forward where there are competing views and interests on

626
00:41:53,013 --> 00:41:55,133
Speaker 2: the critical issues that we are facing.

627
00:41:55,373 --> 00:41:57,373
Speaker 3: I think most people think that free speech is the

628
00:41:58,173 --> 00:42:00,253
Speaker 3: very foundation of freedom of liberty.

629
00:42:01,413 --> 00:42:02,613
Speaker 2: I hope, I hope.

630
00:42:02,613 --> 00:42:07,013
Speaker 3: So are you familiar with the satirist C. J. Hopkins.

631
00:42:08,093 --> 00:42:12,573
Speaker 3: No American has lived in Germany for quite a number

632
00:42:12,573 --> 00:42:19,133
Speaker 3: of years now, and satire is his main game. But

633
00:42:20,173 --> 00:42:22,413
Speaker 3: he comments on all sorts of other things, and he

634
00:42:22,493 --> 00:42:28,493
Speaker 3: substacks now and more recently, et cetera. But let me

635
00:42:28,533 --> 00:42:30,973
Speaker 3: just say that in some circles he's very well known,

636
00:42:31,053 --> 00:42:35,413
Speaker 3: other circles, not New Zealand being one of those latter circles.

637
00:42:36,053 --> 00:42:38,893
Speaker 3: But he is going through at the moment a scenario

638
00:42:38,893 --> 00:42:42,093
Speaker 3: that I'll describe to you as quickly as possible. In Germany,

639
00:42:42,653 --> 00:42:46,973
Speaker 3: he was charged. He was charged with a crime for

640
00:42:47,213 --> 00:42:51,693
Speaker 3: publishing a book that included a swastika on the cover.

641
00:42:52,533 --> 00:42:56,053
Speaker 3: It was satire, and a couple of other I think

642
00:42:56,293 --> 00:42:59,693
Speaker 3: social media comments that he made. He was charged with

643
00:42:59,813 --> 00:43:04,293
Speaker 3: a serious crime. The details I don't have in front

644
00:43:04,333 --> 00:43:06,533
Speaker 3: of me at the moment, but take my word for it.

645
00:43:07,453 --> 00:43:10,453
Speaker 3: He was convicted in the in the lower court, and

646
00:43:10,493 --> 00:43:13,053
Speaker 3: he won his appeal in the in the appeal court,

647
00:43:14,013 --> 00:43:17,613
Speaker 3: and that was that. So he thought, he's now going

648
00:43:17,653 --> 00:43:22,413
Speaker 3: through a second trial where they have they have charged

649
00:43:22,493 --> 00:43:26,333
Speaker 3: him a second time, even though being found innocent the

650
00:43:26,333 --> 00:43:32,373
Speaker 3: first time. In the end, and he's being he's being persecuted.

651
00:43:33,333 --> 00:43:38,013
Speaker 3: And there are other examples of similar similar shall we say,

652
00:43:38,173 --> 00:43:42,613
Speaker 3: usage of the swastika that have not been persecuted at all.

653
00:43:43,173 --> 00:43:46,493
Speaker 3: So he's being he's being targeted by the by the

654
00:43:46,693 --> 00:43:50,053
Speaker 3: by the German courts. Would you have any reaction to that?

655
00:43:50,173 --> 00:43:54,933
Speaker 3: I mean, if they start in Germany, then where might

656
00:43:54,933 --> 00:43:58,813
Speaker 3: it finish?

657
00:43:58,853 --> 00:44:01,253
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a reason why there would be

658
00:44:01,293 --> 00:44:04,853
Speaker 2: a particular sensitivity towards the use of the swastika in Germany.

659
00:44:04,893 --> 00:44:10,493
Speaker 2: Of course, Laighton, So I guess I manifested obvious the

660
00:44:10,533 --> 00:44:13,933
Speaker 2: point though I would, without knowing anything about the details

661
00:44:13,973 --> 00:44:16,053
Speaker 2: of that case, I would come back to the fact

662
00:44:16,093 --> 00:44:20,093
Speaker 2: that the freedom to openly discuss these things. But look,

663
00:44:20,293 --> 00:44:25,253
Speaker 2: this might seem to you as if I'm obfiscating, But

664
00:44:25,773 --> 00:44:28,293
Speaker 2: I think of greater concern to me is the fact, well,

665
00:44:28,813 --> 00:44:31,453
Speaker 2: let's just say, something which is of real concern to

666
00:44:31,493 --> 00:44:34,813
Speaker 2: me is the fact that when young Americans, for example,

667
00:44:34,853 --> 00:44:36,973
Speaker 2: and perhaps it would be no different here us, what

668
00:44:37,133 --> 00:44:40,973
Speaker 2: is the Holocaust? Most have no idea. So this is

669
00:44:41,013 --> 00:44:43,133
Speaker 2: what I think is a real issue. We have lost

670
00:44:43,573 --> 00:44:50,653
Speaker 2: a sense of these critical historical atrocities and what their

671
00:44:50,693 --> 00:44:54,013
Speaker 2: implications are now for the way in which society and

672
00:44:54,053 --> 00:44:56,973
Speaker 2: its freedoms have evolved, not least of which is the

673
00:44:58,213 --> 00:45:02,333
Speaker 2: Universal Declaration on Human Rights in nineteen forty eight. So

674
00:45:03,053 --> 00:45:05,493
Speaker 2: we might focus on the court case that you're talking about.

675
00:45:05,533 --> 00:45:08,973
Speaker 2: But I think perhaps the border issue is the loss

676
00:45:09,013 --> 00:45:11,893
Speaker 2: of any historical knowledge about what the significance of that

677
00:45:12,493 --> 00:45:14,293
Speaker 2: advance might be.

678
00:45:14,533 --> 00:45:19,373
Speaker 3: I'll advance your statement. I'm aware of a young journalist

679
00:45:19,373 --> 00:45:22,533
Speaker 3: in a newsroom in this country who asked that question,

680
00:45:22,973 --> 00:45:27,653
Speaker 3: what what what? What's the what's the Holocaust? And that

681
00:45:27,653 --> 00:45:29,653
Speaker 3: that only adds weight to what you're saying, of course,

682
00:45:30,573 --> 00:45:33,693
Speaker 3: but why is it? So there's part of the education

683
00:45:33,853 --> 00:45:36,973
Speaker 3: system that I could attach to your future.

684
00:45:40,013 --> 00:45:42,093
Speaker 2: It's looking like a very fullsome future.

685
00:45:42,493 --> 00:45:45,933
Speaker 3: I think. I think I'm wondering whether you actually realize

686
00:45:45,973 --> 00:45:48,093
Speaker 3: what you've taken on. Look at this.

687
00:45:48,533 --> 00:45:49,693
Speaker 2: I'm wondering that too.

688
00:45:51,813 --> 00:45:56,213
Speaker 3: I do have to ask you this feel compulsed. I've

689
00:45:56,213 --> 00:45:58,933
Speaker 3: going to quote you and then I'll tell you who

690
00:45:58,973 --> 00:46:02,173
Speaker 3: made the comment. The US debt and money printing system

691
00:46:02,253 --> 00:46:05,893
Speaker 3: is collapsing. The West is heading into an economic wasteland.

692
00:46:05,973 --> 00:46:09,213
Speaker 3: The Middle East is on fire, Russia dominate Ukraine and

693
00:46:09,373 --> 00:46:15,453
Speaker 3: NATO bricks is ending US hegemony and the fake rules

694
00:46:15,493 --> 00:46:20,533
Speaker 3: based order US puppets are failing everywhere. Genocide, propaganda, censorship,

695
00:46:20,573 --> 00:46:24,893
Speaker 3: and rigged elections are the new normal. Humanity is facing

696
00:46:25,133 --> 00:46:30,853
Speaker 3: the abyss as World War III seems inevitable, and I

697
00:46:30,893 --> 00:46:33,813
Speaker 3: won't play games with you because that would be unfair.

698
00:46:34,933 --> 00:46:39,413
Speaker 3: It concludes. Oh, and the obedient US colony in the

699
00:46:39,453 --> 00:46:43,093
Speaker 3: South Pacific just decided to extradite me for what users

700
00:46:43,253 --> 00:46:48,133
Speaker 3: uploaded to mega Upload unsolicited and what copyright holders were

701
00:46:48,173 --> 00:46:52,973
Speaker 3: able to remove with direct delete access instantly and without question.

702
00:46:53,213 --> 00:46:57,733
Speaker 3: But who cares? That's justice these days? Would you consider

703
00:46:57,813 --> 00:47:02,413
Speaker 3: that situation with kin dot com to be if you

704
00:47:02,533 --> 00:47:07,013
Speaker 3: were currently in the position that you have been awarded,

705
00:47:07,053 --> 00:47:12,213
Speaker 3: would you consider that to be part of your realm?

706
00:47:12,813 --> 00:47:15,333
Speaker 2: The short answer is, on a very practical level, that

707
00:47:15,413 --> 00:47:20,533
Speaker 2: immigration issues do come before the Human Rights Commission, and

708
00:47:20,573 --> 00:47:23,693
Speaker 2: in all the talk about abstract ideas and concepts, there

709
00:47:23,733 --> 00:47:27,053
Speaker 2: are My understanding is at least twelve hundred people last

710
00:47:27,093 --> 00:47:30,493
Speaker 2: year who used the Commission services for addressing particular issues,

711
00:47:31,853 --> 00:47:34,533
Speaker 2: and I think it's very important to stay focused on

712
00:47:34,573 --> 00:47:36,773
Speaker 2: those because this is one of the critical services that

713
00:47:36,813 --> 00:47:40,653
Speaker 2: the Commission provides. About twelve hundred. Of those of the

714
00:47:40,773 --> 00:47:43,173
Speaker 2: twelve hundred, about one hundred and fifty I understand go

715
00:47:43,213 --> 00:47:47,573
Speaker 2: to mediation, where one of our roles is quote unquote

716
00:47:47,613 --> 00:47:51,453
Speaker 2: community peacekeeping, and so I think that we've got a

717
00:47:51,453 --> 00:47:53,853
Speaker 2: big role to play in that space. I think the

718
00:47:55,253 --> 00:47:59,053
Speaker 2: so immigration issues, yes do come before the Human Rights

719
00:47:59,093 --> 00:48:02,493
Speaker 2: Commission number two. I just think when it comes to

720
00:48:02,573 --> 00:48:05,093
Speaker 2: painting this very bleak picture of the future, that we

721
00:48:05,173 --> 00:48:08,253
Speaker 2: also need to focus on some of the very positive

722
00:48:08,413 --> 00:48:11,293
Speaker 2: things that have happened in that are happening and have

723
00:48:11,453 --> 00:48:14,613
Speaker 2: happened in the world. It's not all bleak, and there

724
00:48:14,613 --> 00:48:17,853
Speaker 2: are many extraordinary things happening, whether they are technological, whether

725
00:48:17,853 --> 00:48:19,813
Speaker 2: they're to do with health, whether they're to do with

726
00:48:19,933 --> 00:48:23,773
Speaker 2: the doubling of life expectancy in the last one hundred

727
00:48:23,773 --> 00:48:25,853
Speaker 2: and fifty years, whether to do with the fact that

728
00:48:25,933 --> 00:48:29,133
Speaker 2: gay people can now lead a life in this country

729
00:48:29,133 --> 00:48:33,933
Speaker 2: without any legal impediment whatsoever. We've made enormous progress, and

730
00:48:34,013 --> 00:48:38,733
Speaker 2: there is enormous progress being made on many issues that

731
00:48:39,493 --> 00:48:42,293
Speaker 2: we might choose to focus on rather than painting such

732
00:48:42,333 --> 00:48:45,853
Speaker 2: a bleak picture of the future. What I do think

733
00:48:45,893 --> 00:48:48,893
Speaker 2: we do need to do, and this is again reiterating

734
00:48:49,013 --> 00:48:50,813
Speaker 2: what I hope has been a common theme, is that

735
00:48:50,853 --> 00:48:54,173
Speaker 2: we need to rigorously defend the freedoms that we have.

736
00:48:54,253 --> 00:48:57,293
Speaker 2: We need to be incredibly grateful and appreciative for the

737
00:48:57,373 --> 00:49:00,533
Speaker 2: sacrifices that have led us to where we are now,

738
00:49:00,933 --> 00:49:04,173
Speaker 2: and we need to recognize that human rights are fragile,

739
00:49:04,653 --> 00:49:08,853
Speaker 2: and that civilization is fragile, and we need to vigorously defended.

740
00:49:09,373 --> 00:49:13,493
Speaker 3: That was a very diplomatic and eloquent statement, and I

741
00:49:13,573 --> 00:49:17,413
Speaker 3: find no fault with it. As somebody once said, I wonder, then,

742
00:49:17,453 --> 00:49:20,093
Speaker 3: could you give me an example, give us an example

743
00:49:20,493 --> 00:49:24,453
Speaker 3: of a freedom, a right that we are in short

744
00:49:24,453 --> 00:49:28,093
Speaker 3: supply of, that has been diminished for us, that needs attention.

745
00:49:30,733 --> 00:49:36,013
Speaker 2: Well, we get into in answering that, we get into

746
00:49:36,053 --> 00:49:37,973
Speaker 2: the issue of defining what a human right is.

747
00:49:38,653 --> 00:49:42,093
Speaker 3: But first of all, sorry, but first of all, can

748
00:49:42,133 --> 00:49:45,533
Speaker 3: you remember there was a question asked of a would

749
00:49:45,533 --> 00:49:47,973
Speaker 3: be judge what is a woman? Can you tell me

750
00:49:48,013 --> 00:49:51,933
Speaker 3: what a woman is? My question to you is what

751
00:49:52,093 --> 00:49:52,573
Speaker 3: is a human?

752
00:49:55,733 --> 00:50:00,493
Speaker 2: Well, one of the interesting things about that is that

753
00:50:00,733 --> 00:50:04,053
Speaker 2: artificial intelligence is going to bring that question into very

754
00:50:04,093 --> 00:50:06,933
Speaker 2: stark relief later, which is why I mentioned it earlier

755
00:50:06,933 --> 00:50:10,293
Speaker 2: as one of the enormous challenges for human rights going forward,

756
00:50:10,733 --> 00:50:15,653
Speaker 2: because actually that seriously probably brings into very stark belief

757
00:50:16,093 --> 00:50:19,573
Speaker 2: the fact that that that question is going to have

758
00:50:20,373 --> 00:50:24,373
Speaker 2: a degree of significance now which it hasn't had for

759
00:50:24,413 --> 00:50:26,973
Speaker 2: a long time. Unless we were to go into the

760
00:50:27,013 --> 00:50:30,773
Speaker 2: spiritual realm. So that's an area that I think the

761
00:50:30,813 --> 00:50:33,093
Speaker 2: Human Rights Commission needs to do a lot of working,

762
00:50:34,253 --> 00:50:38,053
Speaker 2: and it is because of the impact of AI, and

763
00:50:38,093 --> 00:50:40,533
Speaker 2: I think that's going to bring the answer to your

764
00:50:40,613 --> 00:50:42,773
Speaker 2: question into very stark relief.

765
00:50:43,093 --> 00:50:45,613
Speaker 3: Do you do you believe, as most people seem to,

766
00:50:45,733 --> 00:50:52,973
Speaker 3: that that AI is something really serious, really really prominent

767
00:50:53,733 --> 00:50:56,933
Speaker 3: or will be prominent. Yes, in our lives.

768
00:50:57,613 --> 00:51:03,253
Speaker 2: Yes. If you read people like Uval Harari, arguably one

769
00:51:03,253 --> 00:51:06,693
Speaker 2: of the more intelligent commentators on what's happening in the

770
00:51:06,693 --> 00:51:08,773
Speaker 2: world today, he says that this is the number one

771
00:51:08,853 --> 00:51:12,813
Speaker 2: challenge facing humanity now. He's also very clear about the

772
00:51:12,853 --> 00:51:15,333
Speaker 2: fact that, you know, if we don't take control of

773
00:51:15,373 --> 00:51:19,733
Speaker 2: our lives ie personal responsibility, that the algorithms will. And

774
00:51:19,813 --> 00:51:22,733
Speaker 2: while that's not directly related to AI, I think it's

775
00:51:22,773 --> 00:51:27,013
Speaker 2: also very opposite point that really, you know, we're in

776
00:51:27,053 --> 00:51:31,413
Speaker 2: an age now with technology, whether it's AI or algorithms generally,

777
00:51:31,493 --> 00:51:34,693
Speaker 2: where basic human rights and the way that we've lived

778
00:51:34,733 --> 00:51:38,253
Speaker 2: to date are going to be under increasing challenge. Hence,

779
00:51:38,293 --> 00:51:43,173
Speaker 2: I go back to my point consistently reiterated that civilization

780
00:51:43,253 --> 00:51:46,853
Speaker 2: as fragile, we're going to be more and more easily manipulated,

781
00:51:46,973 --> 00:51:50,413
Speaker 2: and we need to rigorously defend free speech and freedoms

782
00:51:51,333 --> 00:51:53,333
Speaker 2: wherever we see them under attack.

783
00:51:54,893 --> 00:51:58,453
Speaker 3: Which opens the door to about ten more different avenues

784
00:51:58,493 --> 00:52:03,613
Speaker 3: that that I could undertake. I'm looking at a headline

785
00:52:04,253 --> 00:52:10,133
Speaker 3: Pandemic Preparedness and the Road to International Fascism from the

786
00:52:10,173 --> 00:52:14,413
Speaker 3: American Journal of Economics and Sociology. I think that's self explanatory.

787
00:52:14,773 --> 00:52:18,053
Speaker 3: But there is a There is an attached headline New

788
00:52:18,133 --> 00:52:24,693
Speaker 3: Zealand codifies forced injections in martial law pandemic plan I

789
00:52:24,813 --> 00:52:29,733
Speaker 3: presume that you're familiar with that. Yes, I think that

790
00:52:29,773 --> 00:52:32,933
Speaker 3: if there is, if there is an example of a

791
00:52:32,973 --> 00:52:38,493
Speaker 3: diminished right, as we were discussing before, then that is

792
00:52:38,613 --> 00:52:43,093
Speaker 3: probably it. A friend of mine who's an American living

793
00:52:43,133 --> 00:52:48,573
Speaker 3: here texted me when that announcement came out very recently,

794
00:52:49,813 --> 00:52:56,253
Speaker 3: and he was explicit in his objection to it and

795
00:52:56,293 --> 00:52:58,773
Speaker 3: how he would deal with it, cope with it if

796
00:52:58,813 --> 00:53:03,573
Speaker 3: it ever came to pass that he was being forced into,

797
00:53:03,933 --> 00:53:10,653
Speaker 3: forced physically into an injection that he didn't want. Is

798
00:53:10,693 --> 00:53:13,053
Speaker 3: that is that? Does that fall into your into your

799
00:53:13,093 --> 00:53:18,293
Speaker 3: realm of areas that we need to protect because because

800
00:53:18,293 --> 00:53:22,453
Speaker 3: it's been abused like crazy over the last few years.

801
00:53:23,933 --> 00:53:26,293
Speaker 2: I have no doubt that there will be people looking

802
00:53:26,293 --> 00:53:30,173
Speaker 2: to the Human Rights Commission if that situation occurs. I

803
00:53:30,453 --> 00:53:34,813
Speaker 2: don't know enough about what is proposed to make any

804
00:53:35,333 --> 00:53:38,453
Speaker 2: comment on that now, Laton, but what I would say

805
00:53:39,253 --> 00:53:42,813
Speaker 2: is that I was reading something from Chris Finleyson, the

806
00:53:42,853 --> 00:53:48,813
Speaker 2: former Attorney General recently, who talked about New Zealander's reaction

807
00:53:49,093 --> 00:53:53,253
Speaker 2: to the lockdown and how we were all too ready

808
00:53:53,333 --> 00:53:56,853
Speaker 2: to dB in a neighbor who stuck their head out. No,

809
00:53:57,013 --> 00:53:59,293
Speaker 2: I can't remember the example he used, but there were

810
00:53:59,333 --> 00:54:02,533
Speaker 2: certainly a lot of people reporting on their neighbors for

811
00:54:02,693 --> 00:54:06,213
Speaker 2: what were perceived to be infringements of the lockdown and

812
00:54:06,293 --> 00:54:09,613
Speaker 2: our willingness to do that. And I guess that highlighted

813
00:54:09,693 --> 00:54:11,653
Speaker 2: for me yet again that while we're having all these

814
00:54:11,653 --> 00:54:16,693
Speaker 2: abstract discussions that actually our individual behaviors, our individual responsibilities,

815
00:54:16,733 --> 00:54:19,893
Speaker 2: are absolutely critical to whether or not we have a

816
00:54:19,933 --> 00:54:24,773
Speaker 2: free society. Our willingness to dobbin people who are perceived

817
00:54:24,773 --> 00:54:32,493
Speaker 2: to be perhaps infringing on those requirements was a concerning

818
00:54:32,693 --> 00:54:36,293
Speaker 2: part of what we witnessed during the lockdown, as Christopher

819
00:54:36,293 --> 00:54:42,733
Speaker 2: Finlayson was reporting it. So again, these issues have a

820
00:54:42,733 --> 00:54:45,893
Speaker 2: lot of other implications which I think we need to

821
00:54:46,053 --> 00:54:50,213
Speaker 2: take responsibility for. But in terms of what you're actually asking,

822
00:54:50,373 --> 00:54:53,373
Speaker 2: I am no doubt that the Commission will be asked

823
00:54:53,493 --> 00:54:57,533
Speaker 2: about this, and I am not informed enough about the

824
00:54:57,573 --> 00:55:00,813
Speaker 2: full implications of this and what is planned to make

825
00:55:00,893 --> 00:55:02,853
Speaker 2: any meaningful comment on it. Now.

826
00:55:03,013 --> 00:55:06,973
Speaker 3: As a matter of interest, will you be pursuing that information.

827
00:55:09,573 --> 00:55:12,333
Speaker 2: I think it's inevitable that the Commission will be asked

828
00:55:12,933 --> 00:55:17,533
Speaker 2: and approached about this, and therefore I will need to

829
00:55:17,573 --> 00:55:19,693
Speaker 2: get up to speed with this issue. And you know,

830
00:55:19,733 --> 00:55:23,293
Speaker 2: I would reiterate I haven't actually taken up the role yet,

831
00:55:23,293 --> 00:55:25,853
Speaker 2: but I would certainly imagine that this will be on

832
00:55:26,133 --> 00:55:27,653
Speaker 2: the radar of the Commission.

833
00:55:28,213 --> 00:55:30,533
Speaker 3: I can I just add a clip on that a

834
00:55:30,533 --> 00:55:34,573
Speaker 3: precursor to what I've just said. Really, if we were

835
00:55:34,573 --> 00:55:37,853
Speaker 3: starting from a different, a different angle, and that is

836
00:55:37,893 --> 00:55:42,693
Speaker 3: that the the moves of recent times by the World

837
00:55:42,693 --> 00:55:51,733
Speaker 3: Health Organization to formulate an international approach to this, there's

838
00:55:51,813 --> 00:55:56,573
Speaker 3: been there has been much discussion about it, and if

839
00:55:56,613 --> 00:55:59,893
Speaker 3: ever there was an example of the dangers of that,

840
00:56:00,893 --> 00:56:06,493
Speaker 3: then this latest codification here, I would suggest, fits it

841
00:56:06,613 --> 00:56:11,613
Speaker 3: slots into it and should and should should increase the

842
00:56:12,253 --> 00:56:14,133
Speaker 3: concern that some people have and I don't need it.

843
00:56:14,253 --> 00:56:15,973
Speaker 3: I don't need a response to that, really if you

844
00:56:15,973 --> 00:56:19,813
Speaker 3: don't want, I just wanted to make the comment going

845
00:56:19,813 --> 00:56:25,413
Speaker 3: back to the person thing, what is a human? This

846
00:56:25,533 --> 00:56:30,733
Speaker 3: to me is something that I think is an area

847
00:56:31,013 --> 00:56:35,173
Speaker 3: that is going to become increasingly important. I an Hersey

848
00:56:35,213 --> 00:56:39,013
Speaker 3: Ali wrote, wrote a column yesterday. You know of whom

849
00:56:39,053 --> 00:56:42,933
Speaker 3: I've speak. I won't even ask you wrote, wrote wrote

850
00:56:42,933 --> 00:56:46,733
Speaker 3: a piece yesterday the abortion election, and I'm not going

851
00:56:46,773 --> 00:56:48,613
Speaker 3: to go into it any any further than that. I

852
00:56:48,693 --> 00:56:50,613
Speaker 3: just use it as a use it as a hook,

853
00:56:51,573 --> 00:56:58,173
Speaker 3: because here's another one. California bill mandating pregnancy dignity for

854
00:56:58,533 --> 00:57:05,533
Speaker 3: birthing persons passes Health committee, and you can see where

855
00:57:05,573 --> 00:57:10,093
Speaker 3: I'm going with this. Add issue is Assembly Bill two

856
00:57:10,173 --> 00:57:14,333
Speaker 3: three one nine, introduced by Democratic assembly Woman Laurie Wilson

857
00:57:14,413 --> 00:57:18,893
Speaker 3: and sponsored by the California Attorney General Rob Mont, which

858
00:57:18,933 --> 00:57:25,013
Speaker 3: says the legislature recognizes all both in people, including non

859
00:57:25,053 --> 00:57:30,293
Speaker 3: binary persons and persons of transgender experience close quote. The

860
00:57:30,333 --> 00:57:35,253
Speaker 3: bill additionally mandates implicit bias training for existing medical professionals

861
00:57:35,293 --> 00:57:38,413
Speaker 3: by June one, twenty twenty five, and within six months

862
00:57:38,453 --> 00:57:43,453
Speaker 3: of those opening new practices, the point being that the

863
00:57:43,493 --> 00:57:49,493
Speaker 3: bill will allow abortion right up to the moment of birth,

864
00:57:50,053 --> 00:57:53,213
Speaker 3: and some are pushing for it beyond birth. So you've

865
00:57:53,253 --> 00:57:57,373
Speaker 3: got two aspects to it. One is the birthing person

866
00:57:57,413 --> 00:58:03,173
Speaker 3: one the other is the human being given birth. In

867
00:58:03,213 --> 00:58:08,933
Speaker 3: other words, sixty seconds before passing through the canal? Is

868
00:58:08,973 --> 00:58:15,613
Speaker 3: that individual a human? I'm not doing this purposely to

869
00:58:16,733 --> 00:58:22,493
Speaker 3: irritate you. I'm concerned with regard to definitions and where

870
00:58:22,533 --> 00:58:23,613
Speaker 3: the future lies.

871
00:58:24,973 --> 00:58:28,253
Speaker 2: And the thing that we might take from that later

872
00:58:28,253 --> 00:58:31,733
Speaker 2: and is that this is a bill. Therefore, there is

873
00:58:31,773 --> 00:58:36,853
Speaker 2: the opportunity with a bill for all sides of this

874
00:58:36,973 --> 00:58:42,053
Speaker 2: discussion and this debate to be had, including contrary views,

875
00:58:42,093 --> 00:58:46,613
Speaker 2: including supportive views, because we have institutions within our society

876
00:58:46,973 --> 00:58:51,133
Speaker 2: that are designed specifically to facilitate that kind of dialogue

877
00:58:51,133 --> 00:58:56,453
Speaker 2: and debate. Now that doesn't exist in totalitarian societies, and

878
00:58:56,973 --> 00:59:00,053
Speaker 2: the fact that this bill will be vigorously debated, I

879
00:59:00,093 --> 00:59:03,733
Speaker 2: have no doubt, is something that we should be heartened

880
00:59:03,773 --> 00:59:07,933
Speaker 2: by because we actually have the opportunity to participate in

881
00:59:08,013 --> 00:59:13,213
Speaker 2: next frawing issues like that with all their contention and

882
00:59:13,253 --> 00:59:18,053
Speaker 2: all the divergent opinions. So you know whether it's courts,

883
00:59:18,413 --> 00:59:21,453
Speaker 2: whether it's councils, whether it's parliament. We've got the vehicles

884
00:59:21,453 --> 00:59:24,133
Speaker 2: in place to have those debates. Let's have those debates,

885
00:59:24,213 --> 00:59:27,373
Speaker 2: because there is clearly, as you've just indicated with that example,

886
00:59:27,413 --> 00:59:34,293
Speaker 2: there are movements pushing different agendas in the space. Let's

887
00:59:34,333 --> 00:59:38,573
Speaker 2: celebrate the fact we've got the institutions to explore those

888
00:59:38,613 --> 00:59:41,333
Speaker 2: in detail, to hear the divergent views, and to make

889
00:59:41,413 --> 00:59:45,613
Speaker 2: decisions without what's traditionally been the case, which is the

890
00:59:45,733 --> 00:59:50,573
Speaker 2: use of thuggery or tyranny to resolve these kinds of issues.

891
00:59:51,213 --> 00:59:55,533
Speaker 3: I've got to add the California is a one party state,

892
00:59:56,173 --> 01:00:01,533
Speaker 3: but the running vice presidential candidates for the Democratic Party

893
01:00:01,533 --> 01:00:03,693
Speaker 3: in America is the governor of a state, and his

894
01:00:03,813 --> 01:00:07,173
Speaker 3: state has already introduced it. I leave that with you

895
01:00:07,253 --> 01:00:11,813
Speaker 3: for your consideration, because again I think I said mentioned

896
01:00:11,813 --> 01:00:17,773
Speaker 3: something like this earlier. We've both watched developments, especially in

897
01:00:17,813 --> 01:00:23,413
Speaker 3: a progressive environment like some of America is, and that's

898
01:00:23,413 --> 01:00:26,053
Speaker 3: where things start and they seem to spread fairly quickly

899
01:00:26,093 --> 01:00:29,013
Speaker 3: over a period of time. But I do want to

900
01:00:29,053 --> 01:00:31,773
Speaker 3: ask you that re ask you the question, though, in

901
01:00:32,213 --> 01:00:35,693
Speaker 3: your opinion, is a baby that's about is a fetus.

902
01:00:35,973 --> 01:00:38,813
Speaker 3: It's not a fetus anymore. Is it a human? Does

903
01:00:38,853 --> 01:00:42,933
Speaker 3: it fall into the category of human rights that that

904
01:00:43,533 --> 01:00:44,653
Speaker 3: child be born?

905
01:00:45,733 --> 01:00:50,173
Speaker 2: Layton. I'm actually heading to the States shortly to observe

906
01:00:50,253 --> 01:00:53,653
Speaker 2: the American elections, and I'll be in California with my

907
01:00:53,773 --> 01:00:56,253
Speaker 2: daughter who lives in LA and so I'm going to

908
01:00:56,293 --> 01:01:00,333
Speaker 2: be exposed firsthand to some of these debates. I guess

909
01:01:01,493 --> 01:01:04,333
Speaker 2: that it highlights the fact that, you know, it's been

910
01:01:04,373 --> 01:01:07,653
Speaker 2: called the culture wars, call up what you will. We've

911
01:01:07,693 --> 01:01:11,773
Speaker 2: got these real contentious issues going on, and we've got

912
01:01:11,853 --> 01:01:15,613
Speaker 2: a variety of viewpoints on them, and we don't have

913
01:01:16,373 --> 01:01:19,053
Speaker 2: you talk about California as a one party state, but really,

914
01:01:19,173 --> 01:01:24,413
Speaker 2: you know, compared to one party states like the Soviet

915
01:01:24,533 --> 01:01:28,053
Speaker 2: block up until nineteen eighty nine or any other or

916
01:01:28,093 --> 01:01:31,613
Speaker 2: what's happening in Afghanistan at the moment, we actually still

917
01:01:31,653 --> 01:01:36,453
Speaker 2: have democratic debate and discussion. And I have no doubt

918
01:01:36,493 --> 01:01:38,733
Speaker 2: that the American election is going to be a graphical

919
01:01:38,733 --> 01:01:41,813
Speaker 2: illustration of how those competing views are going to be

920
01:01:41,893 --> 01:01:46,333
Speaker 2: tested out in the electoral arena, with everybody able to

921
01:01:46,413 --> 01:01:48,693
Speaker 2: have their say. And that's what we should be celebrating.

922
01:01:49,213 --> 01:01:52,413
Speaker 2: And I'm looking forward to observing that firsthand when I

923
01:01:52,733 --> 01:01:58,213
Speaker 2: head to observe the US elections later on the air.

924
01:01:58,773 --> 01:02:00,373
Speaker 3: I was going to go, and I may still go,

925
01:02:00,493 --> 01:02:02,053
Speaker 3: but at the moment I'm not going.

926
01:02:03,933 --> 01:02:04,333
Speaker 2: Anyway.

927
01:02:04,493 --> 01:02:07,533
Speaker 3: Let us conclude with one short paragraph and a quick

928
01:02:07,573 --> 01:02:11,853
Speaker 3: reaction from you. Equality is in bad odor on the

929
01:02:11,933 --> 01:02:15,133
Speaker 3: right these days. This is hardly new. Traditionalists have always

930
01:02:15,213 --> 01:02:20,493
Speaker 3: had suspicions about America's theoretical foundation in equal natural rights,

931
01:02:20,853 --> 01:02:23,893
Speaker 3: although the feeling has become more widespread in recent years

932
01:02:23,933 --> 01:02:27,493
Speaker 3: as the cancer of diversity, equity, and inclusion seeps into

933
01:02:27,613 --> 01:02:32,253
Speaker 3: every organ of American society. The reigning ideology of the

934
01:02:32,333 --> 01:02:36,653
Speaker 3: ruling class contends that we are born unequal, either victims

935
01:02:36,773 --> 01:02:40,253
Speaker 3: or oppressors, and it is the duty of our scientifically

936
01:02:40,333 --> 01:02:45,293
Speaker 3: trained experts to correct this injustice by making us, at

937
01:02:45,333 --> 01:02:54,213
Speaker 3: their emphasis, making us all equal. Final comment, I.

938
01:02:56,853 --> 01:02:59,613
Speaker 2: Am so grateful to be living in a society where

939
01:02:59,613 --> 01:03:02,133
Speaker 2: we can even have these kinds of discussions, and we

940
01:03:02,173 --> 01:03:04,933
Speaker 2: can have different views on them late And that's what

941
01:03:04,973 --> 01:03:08,493
Speaker 2: I really am grateful for, because for much of humanity

942
01:03:08,493 --> 01:03:11,933
Speaker 2: that's still not the case, and for much of human

943
01:03:12,013 --> 01:03:15,493
Speaker 2: history it hasn't been the case. For the vast majority

944
01:03:15,533 --> 01:03:18,773
Speaker 2: of people. So look, honestly, we've got huge challenge ahead

945
01:03:18,813 --> 01:03:23,213
Speaker 2: of us, and I look forward to playing some small

946
01:03:23,293 --> 01:03:27,293
Speaker 2: role at the Human Rights Commission to making sure that

947
01:03:27,333 --> 01:03:32,293
Speaker 2: these issues are debated and that we maintain that freedom

948
01:03:32,333 --> 01:03:35,573
Speaker 2: of speech which is so essential to reaching the truth

949
01:03:35,973 --> 01:03:38,493
Speaker 2: and as much as we can on these matters.

950
01:03:39,053 --> 01:03:42,093
Speaker 3: Well, I look forward to you putting a headlock on

951
01:03:42,173 --> 01:03:47,453
Speaker 3: the universities in that regard the Human Rights new Chief Commissioner,

952
01:03:48,053 --> 01:03:51,093
Speaker 3: Stephen Rainbow. It's been a great pleasure talking with you,

953
01:03:51,933 --> 01:03:54,973
Speaker 3: and I will be very intrigued at the reaction that

954
01:03:56,173 --> 01:03:58,773
Speaker 3: we get, or that I get in particular. Thank you

955
01:03:58,813 --> 01:04:00,973
Speaker 3: so much for your time, and may it not be

956
01:04:01,053 --> 01:04:01,493
Speaker 3: the last.

957
01:04:02,653 --> 01:04:04,773
Speaker 2: It's been a pleasure, latent, thank you so much.

958
01:04:11,733 --> 01:04:14,973
Speaker 3: Light and Smith, missus producer. Welcome to the mail room

959
01:04:14,973 --> 01:04:16,733
Speaker 3: for podcast two hundred and fifty.

960
01:04:16,493 --> 01:04:19,053
Speaker 4: Two late and how are you very well?

961
01:04:19,653 --> 01:04:21,613
Speaker 3: I just I have to share with you something. I

962
01:04:21,693 --> 01:04:24,133
Speaker 3: was just lying in the sun in the back room

963
01:04:25,373 --> 01:04:30,053
Speaker 3: for ten minutes with my eyes closed and it was sinsational.

964
01:04:30,533 --> 01:04:32,533
Speaker 4: I did I tell you last week that I was

965
01:04:32,573 --> 01:04:35,453
Speaker 4: sitting out the back reading a book and literally had

966
01:04:35,493 --> 01:04:37,373
Speaker 4: to come in. I think I mentioned this last week.

967
01:04:37,693 --> 01:04:41,013
Speaker 4: So we're so starved for sunshine and this time of

968
01:04:41,053 --> 01:04:44,613
Speaker 4: the year, aren't we But it's been fantastic winter. The

969
01:04:44,773 --> 01:04:46,293
Speaker 4: long on the short of that was that I actually

970
01:04:46,293 --> 01:04:49,093
Speaker 4: had to come in it was too hot. Exactly lovely,

971
01:04:49,253 --> 01:04:54,973
Speaker 4: we love the sunshine. Let me start late in Jin says,

972
01:04:55,013 --> 01:04:57,813
Speaker 4: I waited ages for this, so I was overjoyed when

973
01:04:57,853 --> 01:05:01,213
Speaker 4: I realized you were interviewing Professor Robert McCulloch. He is

974
01:05:01,333 --> 01:05:04,573
Speaker 4: especially good at turning the spotlight on the bad politicians.

975
01:05:04,933 --> 01:05:09,093
Speaker 4: In your podcast alone, he exposed utterly crap policies from

976
01:05:09,173 --> 01:05:12,413
Speaker 4: Jasinder r Dern, who granted a monopoly to the supermarket

977
01:05:12,573 --> 01:05:17,893
Speaker 4: duopoly during COVID, Adrian Or's engineering of three recessions, and

978
01:05:18,053 --> 01:05:23,933
Speaker 4: grant Robertson and Michael Baker's totalitarian COVID policies which resulted

979
01:05:24,013 --> 01:05:27,773
Speaker 4: in none of the promised good health outcomes nor good

980
01:05:27,973 --> 01:05:32,213
Speaker 4: economic outcomes. In fact, on roberts Down to Earth Kiwi blog,

981
01:05:32,253 --> 01:05:36,333
Speaker 4: he recently exposed Helen Clark and Jacinder r Dern's hand

982
01:05:36,413 --> 01:05:41,613
Speaker 4: in wrecking New Zealand's health system. I quote former pms

983
01:05:41,653 --> 01:05:44,373
Speaker 4: Helen Clark and Jacinder ar Durn should come clean about

984
01:05:44,373 --> 01:05:47,613
Speaker 4: how they were the chief architects of the omni shambles

985
01:05:47,653 --> 01:05:50,773
Speaker 4: that has become our health system. Health New Zealand has

986
01:05:50,813 --> 01:05:56,093
Speaker 4: succeeded only at being a large scale disaster. What seconds me,

987
01:05:56,213 --> 01:05:59,773
Speaker 4: he says, says Jin is that every single one of

988
01:05:59,813 --> 01:06:03,413
Speaker 4: these names mentioned continue to be rewarded for their failures.

989
01:06:03,813 --> 01:06:06,293
Speaker 4: In fact, our durn is off to the Democratic National

990
01:06:06,333 --> 01:06:12,013
Speaker 4: Convention to support compulsive liar and impostor KRMLA Harris.

991
01:06:12,413 --> 01:06:13,693
Speaker 3: Look, you're going to be right at home.

992
01:06:14,093 --> 01:06:17,253
Speaker 4: Birds of bad feather flocked together, so we need bird

993
01:06:17,333 --> 01:06:20,293
Speaker 4: hunters like Robert McCulloch to take aim at them and

994
01:06:20,413 --> 01:06:22,333
Speaker 4: remind people of the harm they have done to New

995
01:06:22,453 --> 01:06:27,573
Speaker 4: Zealand society. People like him, Des Gorman and Elizabeth Rater

996
01:06:27,733 --> 01:06:30,053
Speaker 4: give me hope that the University of Auckland has not

997
01:06:30,253 --> 01:06:33,573
Speaker 4: completely gone to the dogs. Thanks so much for getting

998
01:06:33,653 --> 01:06:36,573
Speaker 4: Robert on your podcast. He was so easy to listen to.

999
01:06:36,893 --> 01:06:39,493
Speaker 4: I think I'm actually going to listen to podcast two

1000
01:06:39,493 --> 01:06:40,373
Speaker 4: fifty one again.

1001
01:06:41,573 --> 01:06:46,013
Speaker 3: Well, there is more of the same that's been and

1002
01:06:46,453 --> 01:06:49,853
Speaker 3: is coming. I've promoted this letter to the top of

1003
01:06:49,893 --> 01:06:53,333
Speaker 3: my grouping based on what you were just based on

1004
01:06:53,413 --> 01:06:57,733
Speaker 3: what you were just reading, because it's touches on similar things,

1005
01:06:57,773 --> 01:07:02,213
Speaker 3: but it comes with a different approach. High Layton, I

1006
01:07:02,253 --> 01:07:06,373
Speaker 3: feel obliged to point out a delusion shared by you both.

1007
01:07:06,733 --> 01:07:08,933
Speaker 3: When he says shared by you both, I refer to

1008
01:07:08,973 --> 01:07:11,813
Speaker 3: the subject line at the top of the email Latest

1009
01:07:11,853 --> 01:07:16,013
Speaker 3: podcasts with Robert McCulloch. So I repeat, I feel obliged

1010
01:07:16,053 --> 01:07:19,453
Speaker 3: to point out a delusion shared by you both. In

1011
01:07:19,533 --> 01:07:23,533
Speaker 3: talking about our abysmal productivity. You both rubbished the efforts

1012
01:07:23,533 --> 01:07:28,773
Speaker 3: of Descinda and Robertson to introduce modern socialist methods to

1013
01:07:28,853 --> 01:07:34,573
Speaker 3: run the country. Surely, surely you should acknowledge the facts

1014
01:07:34,573 --> 01:07:37,893
Speaker 3: of history. To run a country on laissez faire capitalist

1015
01:07:37,893 --> 01:07:42,253
Speaker 3: principles is an invitation to chaos. The lessons of recovery

1016
01:07:42,293 --> 01:07:47,053
Speaker 3: from the Great capitalist Depression of the nineteen thirties, whereby

1017
01:07:47,173 --> 01:07:51,653
Speaker 3: the US President Roosevelt reorganized the US economy along centrally

1018
01:07:51,693 --> 01:07:55,893
Speaker 3: planned socialist as far as he was politically able lines,

1019
01:07:56,453 --> 01:07:58,933
Speaker 3: or the lessons of post World War II in Britain

1020
01:07:59,013 --> 01:08:04,053
Speaker 3: by the Attlee government, whereby the vast industries were nationalized

1021
01:08:04,373 --> 01:08:09,613
Speaker 3: and put under expert direction with profit motives removed, or

1022
01:08:09,653 --> 01:08:13,173
Speaker 3: on an even greater scale, where Stalin and later Mao

1023
01:08:13,493 --> 01:08:18,973
Speaker 3: lifted their previously primitive economies up by their bootstraps. Is

1024
01:08:18,973 --> 01:08:22,133
Speaker 3: set against these historical realities. How could you both bang

1025
01:08:22,173 --> 01:08:26,293
Speaker 3: on about New Zealand's poor productivity and that more ad

1026
01:08:26,333 --> 01:08:30,453
Speaker 3: hoc capitalism might save the day. Surely we must plan

1027
01:08:30,693 --> 01:08:34,173
Speaker 3: at the highest political level to get rid of profit

1028
01:08:34,613 --> 01:08:38,573
Speaker 3: and lead our people to a brighter, fairer future. Okay,

1029
01:08:38,693 --> 01:08:41,693
Speaker 3: I acknowledge a few costs. Getting rid of the fat

1030
01:08:41,733 --> 01:08:45,453
Speaker 3: cats is a small issue. And yes, as the peasants

1031
01:08:45,453 --> 01:08:48,333
Speaker 3: of the old USSR and the People's Republic of China

1032
01:08:48,653 --> 01:08:52,053
Speaker 3: might acknowledge the few millions who starved to death. But

1033
01:08:52,173 --> 01:08:54,813
Speaker 3: after all, you can't make an omelet without breaking a

1034
01:08:54,813 --> 01:08:59,413
Speaker 3: few shells. Viva the Revolution, comrades bring back to sender

1035
01:08:59,773 --> 01:09:02,413
Speaker 3: only she will be able to explain by imprisoning the

1036
01:09:02,453 --> 01:09:05,893
Speaker 3: wealthy and starving the peasants is really an act of

1037
01:09:05,933 --> 01:09:10,813
Speaker 3: great kindness. I hope you accept this gentle economic lesson regards.

1038
01:09:10,853 --> 01:09:15,253
Speaker 3: Great podcast, by the way, Robert, I love a good

1039
01:09:15,293 --> 01:09:16,213
Speaker 3: piece of satire.

1040
01:09:16,293 --> 01:09:20,573
Speaker 4: That's cute, Leighton Dave says, I know you support the

1041
01:09:20,613 --> 01:09:24,573
Speaker 4: efforts of the Taxpayer Union, as do I. I particularly

1042
01:09:24,693 --> 01:09:29,173
Speaker 4: enjoyed your recent podcast with Jordan Williams. It is likely, therefore,

1043
01:09:29,213 --> 01:09:33,653
Speaker 4: that you have seen their recent Taxpayers Union articles, which

1044
01:09:33,773 --> 01:09:37,053
Speaker 4: highlight the utter nonsense which is contained in the description

1045
01:09:37,173 --> 01:09:41,053
Speaker 4: of many of the so called research projects funded by

1046
01:09:41,053 --> 01:09:45,213
Speaker 4: the Marsden Fund, an organization which seems to be overwhelmed

1047
01:09:45,213 --> 01:09:49,173
Speaker 4: by its own importance and which splurges millions of dollars

1048
01:09:49,213 --> 01:09:54,533
Speaker 4: annually on grants to projects whose applications are so full

1049
01:09:54,573 --> 01:10:00,613
Speaker 4: of incomprehensible, woke rubbish at beggars belief. In two recent

1050
01:10:00,733 --> 01:10:04,093
Speaker 4: emails to my local MP and a couple of government ministers,

1051
01:10:04,253 --> 01:10:07,053
Speaker 4: I have asked who assessors the worth of these projects

1052
01:10:07,213 --> 01:10:11,173
Speaker 4: and approves the fund, and who, if anybody, checks that

1053
01:10:11,293 --> 01:10:14,773
Speaker 4: the research has produced any meaningful result that can be

1054
01:10:14,893 --> 01:10:18,613
Speaker 4: used for any meaningful purpose. I've had no reply and

1055
01:10:18,773 --> 01:10:22,173
Speaker 4: don't really expect to get one. Perhaps this is something

1056
01:10:22,213 --> 01:10:24,773
Speaker 4: you might like to mention in your podcast, So there

1057
01:10:24,813 --> 01:10:31,213
Speaker 4: we've mentioned it, Daveyi. The latest Taxpayers Union article can

1058
01:10:31,293 --> 01:10:34,453
Speaker 4: be found at Taxpayers dot or. I have become an

1059
01:10:34,493 --> 01:10:36,973
Speaker 4: avid listener, and while I may skip some of the

1060
01:10:37,013 --> 01:10:40,413
Speaker 4: American commentators, I enjoy those who speak on matters close

1061
01:10:40,453 --> 01:10:43,973
Speaker 4: to home. Robert McCulloch was great. I hope you have

1062
01:10:44,133 --> 01:10:47,013
Speaker 4: one again in the future. Keep up the good work, Dave.

1063
01:10:48,333 --> 01:10:52,413
Speaker 3: Dave, I'm interested in your comment about the American commentators

1064
01:10:53,253 --> 01:10:56,213
Speaker 3: because I've had two letters sort of along similar lines

1065
01:10:56,533 --> 01:10:59,573
Speaker 3: in the last week. I think another one might have

1066
01:10:59,613 --> 01:11:02,133
Speaker 3: been two weeks ago, or maybe a year ago. I

1067
01:11:02,173 --> 01:11:05,173
Speaker 3: can't remember. There's not many of them, but I'm interested

1068
01:11:05,213 --> 01:11:08,813
Speaker 3: to know why you feel that way, because I will

1069
01:11:08,813 --> 01:11:12,253
Speaker 3: take it on as a personal ambition to change your mind.

1070
01:11:13,733 --> 01:11:14,573
Speaker 3: Oh it's my turn.

1071
01:11:15,493 --> 01:11:16,813
Speaker 4: I was busy rolling my eyes.

1072
01:11:16,933 --> 01:11:19,493
Speaker 3: Sorry, got to be careful with this, but it was

1073
01:11:19,533 --> 01:11:22,333
Speaker 3: forwarded to me by Brian Leyland from a friend of his.

1074
01:11:22,573 --> 01:11:24,493
Speaker 3: He says it was catching up on my Layton Smith

1075
01:11:24,533 --> 01:11:28,133
Speaker 3: podcast while driving today and had the pleasure of being

1076
01:11:28,213 --> 01:11:32,173
Speaker 3: surprised by your recent peace on the show was very good.

1077
01:11:32,213 --> 01:11:34,653
Speaker 3: I thought was great to hear the piece about the

1078
01:11:34,693 --> 01:11:38,493
Speaker 3: market structure brought up again, as that does not get

1079
01:11:38,533 --> 01:11:42,173
Speaker 3: mentioned too often, and the discussion about the market not

1080
01:11:42,413 --> 01:11:47,493
Speaker 3: being a real market in elasticity, etc. Also some enjoyable

1081
01:11:47,493 --> 01:11:51,613
Speaker 3: comments about general intelligence levels and lack of understanding about

1082
01:11:51,653 --> 01:11:55,133
Speaker 3: how it all works, shared by yourself and Layton. Hope

1083
01:11:55,133 --> 01:11:57,613
Speaker 3: all is well. And then there's a personal comment which

1084
01:11:57,653 --> 01:12:00,893
Speaker 3: I'll leave out and I won't name him. I just

1085
01:12:00,933 --> 01:12:03,133
Speaker 3: thought i'd throw that in because Brian said it to me,

1086
01:12:03,173 --> 01:12:06,133
Speaker 3: so fair game, Layton.

1087
01:12:06,213 --> 01:12:09,733
Speaker 4: Chris is writing from Australia actually in the act camera

1088
01:12:10,853 --> 01:12:14,133
Speaker 4: and he says, after hearing from Brian Leyland in podcast

1089
01:12:14,133 --> 01:12:17,413
Speaker 4: two fifty, that the retail price of electricity in New

1090
01:12:17,533 --> 01:12:19,053
Speaker 4: Zealand is thirty cents a killer?

1091
01:12:19,093 --> 01:12:19,533
Speaker 2: What hour?

1092
01:12:20,133 --> 01:12:22,573
Speaker 4: I went to my latest power bill to see what

1093
01:12:22,653 --> 01:12:27,133
Speaker 4: we pay in the act we have three different rates.

1094
01:12:27,253 --> 01:12:31,573
Speaker 4: Peak usage of thirty seven point five cents, shoulder usage

1095
01:12:31,613 --> 01:12:34,933
Speaker 4: of twenty six cents, and off peak usage of twenty

1096
01:12:34,973 --> 01:12:39,253
Speaker 4: three twenty three point one cents per killer? What our

1097
01:12:40,173 --> 01:12:43,773
Speaker 4: shoulder usage of twenty six cents and off peak usage

1098
01:12:43,813 --> 01:12:46,013
Speaker 4: of twenty three point one cents per killer?

1099
01:12:46,053 --> 01:12:46,533
Speaker 1: What hour?

1100
01:12:46,573 --> 01:12:50,053
Speaker 4: Which averages out to about twenty nine cents per killer?

1101
01:12:50,093 --> 01:12:50,453
Speaker 2: What hour?

1102
01:12:50,853 --> 01:12:54,533
Speaker 4: Not much different to the thirty cents In New Zealand.

1103
01:12:55,213 --> 01:12:57,973
Speaker 4: Before the most recent increase in the tariffs, we were

1104
01:12:58,013 --> 01:13:00,893
Speaker 4: paying an average for about twenty five cents per killer?

1105
01:13:00,933 --> 01:13:01,373
Speaker 2: What hour?

1106
01:13:01,773 --> 01:13:02,773
Speaker 4: That's from Chris.

1107
01:13:03,293 --> 01:13:08,453
Speaker 3: Okay, from Tim, I've just listened to your excellent episode

1108
01:13:08,573 --> 01:13:12,613
Speaker 3: of August fourteen. Your guest was excellent and it was

1109
01:13:12,653 --> 01:13:15,733
Speaker 3: so refreshing to hear an academic pushing back against the

1110
01:13:15,773 --> 01:13:22,253
Speaker 3: woke nonsense of Saint Dame Jacinda Hipkins Robinson and their

1111
01:13:22,333 --> 01:13:25,533
Speaker 3: partners in crime from twenty seventeen to twenty twenty three.

1112
01:13:26,093 --> 01:13:29,053
Speaker 3: Your episode should be compulsory listening for all fifth, six

1113
01:13:29,093 --> 01:13:32,413
Speaker 3: and seventh form us. Isn't it lovely to see that

1114
01:13:32,493 --> 01:13:35,253
Speaker 3: the Sainted One is sharing her wisdom and knowledge with

1115
01:13:35,333 --> 01:13:40,693
Speaker 3: the Democrats their convention this week, Kamala and whilst her

1116
01:13:40,933 --> 01:13:44,493
Speaker 3: bizarre choice of running mate will benefit from her depth

1117
01:13:44,533 --> 01:13:49,813
Speaker 3: of expertise in socialism aka progressivism. God save us from

1118
01:13:49,853 --> 01:13:54,093
Speaker 3: the legacy media and their cheerleading and truth telling. After all,

1119
01:13:54,133 --> 01:13:58,453
Speaker 3: the legacy media are never purveyors of misinformation. I should

1120
01:13:58,453 --> 01:14:01,973
Speaker 3: bread that again with a different tone. I think below,

1121
01:14:02,133 --> 01:14:05,173
Speaker 3: for your entertainment is an excellent article on the climate

1122
01:14:05,213 --> 01:14:09,093
Speaker 3: emergency hoax from the Daily Skeptic, all of and I

1123
01:14:09,133 --> 01:14:13,133
Speaker 3: look forward to to this week's podcast. Interestingly enough, I

1124
01:14:13,173 --> 01:14:17,733
Speaker 3: had that piece out for use elsewhere and didn't get

1125
01:14:17,813 --> 01:14:18,333
Speaker 3: round to it.

1126
01:14:19,293 --> 01:14:21,453
Speaker 4: So Laton, this is from Vincent and we've just had

1127
01:14:21,493 --> 01:14:24,773
Speaker 4: an argument because I swear that I read this last week.

1128
01:14:25,213 --> 01:14:27,413
Speaker 4: Laden you say no, I can't have done. Because the

1129
01:14:27,493 --> 01:14:30,213
Speaker 4: date is the fifteenth of August, which is after last

1130
01:14:30,213 --> 01:14:33,253
Speaker 4: week's podcast, but it just goes to remind us, sort

1131
01:14:33,293 --> 01:14:35,773
Speaker 4: of proves it kind of reminds us, isn't it because

1132
01:14:35,773 --> 01:14:37,773
Speaker 4: we read these a few days in advance, or read

1133
01:14:37,813 --> 01:14:39,853
Speaker 4: them to each other as they come in and talk

1134
01:14:39,893 --> 01:14:44,493
Speaker 4: about them. So, folks, if ever you hear one redone

1135
01:14:44,573 --> 01:14:47,853
Speaker 4: one week, it's because we simply can't remember what we've done.

1136
01:14:47,893 --> 01:14:50,653
Speaker 3: And you're lucky and if you've missed one, then you get.

1137
01:14:50,493 --> 01:14:51,133
Speaker 4: To hear it twice.

1138
01:14:51,133 --> 01:14:51,813
Speaker 3: How good is that?

1139
01:14:52,053 --> 01:14:55,613
Speaker 4: So forgive me. I'm pretty sure. Layton tells me we

1140
01:14:55,653 --> 01:14:58,773
Speaker 4: haven't read this, but Vincent, thank you for your email.

1141
01:14:59,133 --> 01:15:00,973
Speaker 4: He says, this is just to let you know that

1142
01:15:01,013 --> 01:15:04,053
Speaker 4: as I sit in a rooftop Paul here in Bermuda,

1143
01:15:04,453 --> 01:15:09,213
Speaker 4: that's what reminded me that i'd read it before. Contending

1144
01:15:09,293 --> 01:15:12,653
Speaker 4: with the over thirty degree temperatures, your podcast sounds as

1145
01:15:12,693 --> 01:15:17,093
Speaker 4: amazing and as informative as it does anywhere on the globe.

1146
01:15:17,493 --> 01:15:21,773
Speaker 4: Last week it worked in Marseille too. Your podcast also

1147
01:15:21,853 --> 01:15:25,213
Speaker 4: works brilliantly at thirty thousand feet when traveling long haul,

1148
01:15:25,413 --> 01:15:29,173
Speaker 4: as the topics and guests translate perfectly. No need for

1149
01:15:29,253 --> 01:15:32,533
Speaker 4: airline movies and TV shows when you can pre download

1150
01:15:32,613 --> 01:15:37,053
Speaker 4: your own favorite podcasts and listen at your leisure anyway.

1151
01:15:37,133 --> 01:15:38,973
Speaker 4: I'll be listening in a couple of weeks time to

1152
01:15:39,013 --> 01:15:41,373
Speaker 4: your latest edition as I mow the lawn on my

1153
01:15:41,453 --> 01:15:46,133
Speaker 4: return to Auckland. Congratulations on the fifty years. We value

1154
01:15:46,173 --> 01:15:51,253
Speaker 4: and depreciate your hard work. And then Vincent says, missus producers,

1155
01:15:51,293 --> 01:15:54,533
Speaker 4: obvious support and encouragement. Please keep up the great work.

1156
01:15:54,933 --> 01:15:57,853
Speaker 4: As I've said before, Vincent, he does it all himself.

1157
01:15:58,053 --> 01:16:00,973
Speaker 4: I'm just here to make cups.

1158
01:16:00,693 --> 01:16:03,573
Speaker 2: Of tea, not.

1159
01:16:07,693 --> 01:16:09,773
Speaker 3: I used to do it for Even in the studio

1160
01:16:09,893 --> 01:16:10,373
Speaker 3: he does.

1161
01:16:11,093 --> 01:16:12,253
Speaker 4: He's the team maker.

1162
01:16:12,453 --> 01:16:13,573
Speaker 3: Well, I learned from the best.

1163
01:16:14,013 --> 01:16:15,533
Speaker 4: Thanks oh Meryll.

1164
01:16:15,773 --> 01:16:20,213
Speaker 3: Yes, now from Harrison. This is a little long, but

1165
01:16:20,253 --> 01:16:22,533
Speaker 3: I'm going to read it anyway. I want to share

1166
01:16:22,573 --> 01:16:26,213
Speaker 3: an experience that I had recently after deciding to return

1167
01:16:26,293 --> 01:16:30,893
Speaker 3: to university after a thirty year hiatus. So I enrolled

1168
01:16:30,893 --> 01:16:33,453
Speaker 3: at my local university with the intention of exploring some

1169
01:16:33,533 --> 01:16:36,493
Speaker 3: further education in the hope of generating an opportunity for

1170
01:16:36,533 --> 01:16:42,493
Speaker 3: another career before I can no longer work. After experiencing

1171
01:16:42,533 --> 01:16:46,773
Speaker 3: the initial culture shock and realizing that I was probably

1172
01:16:46,813 --> 01:16:49,613
Speaker 3: the oldest guy in the lecture theater, I commenced my

1173
01:16:50,013 --> 01:16:54,493
Speaker 3: re education well. The first lecture was introduced by a professor,

1174
01:16:55,253 --> 01:16:58,293
Speaker 3: supported by the use of a visual presentation screen. The

1175
01:16:58,293 --> 01:17:01,813
Speaker 3: professor went on to state that she was a Socialist

1176
01:17:02,253 --> 01:17:04,373
Speaker 3: and further added that her father had been a great

1177
01:17:04,373 --> 01:17:08,413
Speaker 3: admirer of Lenham. The lecture screen includes a picture of

1178
01:17:08,653 --> 01:17:12,213
Speaker 3: the Russian Marxist of Vladimir Lenin, who was responsible for

1179
01:17:12,253 --> 01:17:19,573
Speaker 3: the deaths of millions of Russians. Was that one earlier, Robert, Robert,

1180
01:17:19,573 --> 01:17:23,533
Speaker 3: are you listening? I looked around the theater, seeing one

1181
01:17:23,613 --> 01:17:27,733
Speaker 3: hundred or so students intently absorbed in the Lesson The

1182
01:17:27,773 --> 01:17:30,773
Speaker 3: following day, I attended another lecture, this time on a

1183
01:17:30,813 --> 01:17:34,413
Speaker 3: different subject, specializing in psychology and its connection to our

1184
01:17:34,413 --> 01:17:38,173
Speaker 3: criminal justice system. Early into the lecture I realized that

1185
01:17:38,253 --> 01:17:42,293
Speaker 3: the underlying theme of this education was underpinned by the

1186
01:17:42,333 --> 01:17:46,293
Speaker 3: premise that our colonial passed a New Zealand disregard for

1187
01:17:46,373 --> 01:17:50,253
Speaker 3: mary customary law were the reasons why mary were overrepresented

1188
01:17:50,253 --> 01:17:55,253
Speaker 3: in our criminal justice system. This view was later reinforced

1189
01:17:55,293 --> 01:17:59,173
Speaker 3: by the coarse reading material. Without a doubt, I believe

1190
01:17:59,413 --> 01:18:03,573
Speaker 3: any counter argument in any reading assessment would have guaranteed

1191
01:18:03,733 --> 01:18:07,573
Speaker 3: a failing grade. Anyway, on to another lecture, this time psychology,

1192
01:18:07,853 --> 01:18:13,573
Speaker 3: where such as cognitive dissonance, confirmation bias, and echo chambers

1193
01:18:14,053 --> 01:18:17,813
Speaker 3: were banded around, before moving on to gender based education,

1194
01:18:18,293 --> 01:18:22,213
Speaker 3: where one professor even suggested that male and female babies

1195
01:18:22,253 --> 01:18:25,333
Speaker 3: are born with exactly the same brain and that masculine

1196
01:18:25,333 --> 01:18:30,333
Speaker 3: and feminine differentiation is a social construct anyway it goes

1197
01:18:30,373 --> 01:18:33,653
Speaker 3: on all these experience, it is a he isn't it, Harrison,

1198
01:18:33,693 --> 01:18:36,613
Speaker 3: I haven't made a mistake. All of these experiences began

1199
01:18:36,733 --> 01:18:40,093
Speaker 3: to make me feel like an insurgent, a heretic who

1200
01:18:40,373 --> 01:18:43,453
Speaker 3: had to watch his every thought and guard his every

1201
01:18:43,493 --> 01:18:46,853
Speaker 3: opinion in an upside down world where left is right

1202
01:18:47,253 --> 01:18:50,733
Speaker 3: and up is down. I felt that my common sense

1203
01:18:50,773 --> 01:18:54,333
Speaker 3: and intuition were under assault. I can see without a

1204
01:18:54,373 --> 01:18:58,333
Speaker 3: shadow of a doubt what this institution is all about.

1205
01:18:58,893 --> 01:19:03,853
Speaker 3: It peddles in doctrination. It is an institution at the

1206
01:19:03,893 --> 01:19:07,933
Speaker 3: center of society's drive toward collectivism or in other words, communism.

1207
01:19:08,693 --> 01:19:11,213
Speaker 3: I lasted two weeks at my local university. I came

1208
01:19:11,253 --> 01:19:14,333
Speaker 3: away deeply saddened by all the young people being exposed

1209
01:19:14,373 --> 01:19:19,133
Speaker 3: to this indoctrination and a social ideology. I came away

1210
01:19:19,173 --> 01:19:22,373
Speaker 3: feeling that New Zealand doesn't have a chance. But then

1211
01:19:22,653 --> 01:19:26,373
Speaker 3: last night I watched the film Beneath Sheep's Clothing, a

1212
01:19:26,453 --> 01:19:31,253
Speaker 3: documentary that explores the Commonist's takeover through educational indoctrination in

1213
01:19:31,293 --> 01:19:35,653
Speaker 3: the former Soviet Union. Add its comparison to woke ideology

1214
01:19:35,693 --> 01:19:39,133
Speaker 3: taught in our schools. It is very good and anyone

1215
01:19:39,213 --> 01:19:43,133
Speaker 3: who cares about freedom needs to watch it. In fact,

1216
01:19:43,213 --> 01:19:47,053
Speaker 3: pushing back against communism is an excellent career option, and

1217
01:19:47,133 --> 01:19:50,853
Speaker 3: we have work to do. Also, your podcast is excellent,

1218
01:19:50,893 --> 01:19:54,733
Speaker 3: so please keep doing what you're both doing. I have

1219
01:19:54,773 --> 01:19:57,653
Speaker 3: to say that I have already adopted that career, Harrison.

1220
01:19:57,773 --> 01:20:00,733
Speaker 3: I have already adopted that career, as you may have noticed,

1221
01:20:01,053 --> 01:20:03,733
Speaker 3: and it's intensifying, missus producer.

1222
01:20:04,413 --> 01:20:06,573
Speaker 4: See you next week, lovely, Thanks Layton.

1223
01:20:12,333 --> 01:20:15,613
Speaker 3: Now it seems it's never ending. But another little example

1224
01:20:15,733 --> 01:20:19,293
Speaker 3: of the war on free speech, this time from the EU,

1225
01:20:19,933 --> 01:20:23,533
Speaker 3: and I quote. The latest salvo in the ongoing battle

1226
01:20:23,533 --> 01:20:28,013
Speaker 3: between Elon Musk and the European Union came courtesy of

1227
01:20:28,293 --> 01:20:31,853
Speaker 3: the X owner. He revealed that in a run up

1228
01:20:31,853 --> 01:20:36,173
Speaker 3: to the European elections, X was offered quote an illegal

1229
01:20:36,253 --> 01:20:40,173
Speaker 3: secret deal if the platform would agree to secretly censoring

1230
01:20:40,213 --> 01:20:44,013
Speaker 3: online speech then the European Commission would not find it

1231
01:20:44,173 --> 01:20:48,413
Speaker 3: for violations of its new online content moderation law, the

1232
01:20:48,493 --> 01:20:53,253
Speaker 3: Digital Services Act. X refused to cooperate, but all the

1233
01:20:53,373 --> 01:20:58,093
Speaker 3: other major platforms accepted the deal, so confirming that the

1234
01:20:58,453 --> 01:21:03,493
Speaker 3: world is full of corruption and hypocrisy. So back to

1235
01:21:04,093 --> 01:21:09,893
Speaker 3: the University of Auckland's media release, does climate reporting make

1236
01:21:09,933 --> 01:21:13,893
Speaker 3: a difference? You may as well ask I think does

1237
01:21:14,253 --> 01:21:18,533
Speaker 3: the nightly weather report change the weather? Just a thought anyway,

1238
01:21:18,693 --> 01:21:24,053
Speaker 3: what I wanted to include because it deals with this

1239
01:21:24,093 --> 01:21:29,293
Speaker 3: issue particularly appropriately, why corporate retreats from social activism is

1240
01:21:29,333 --> 01:21:35,133
Speaker 3: good for everyone. In January, Axious reported axius is, a

1241
01:21:35,173 --> 01:21:40,333
Speaker 3: news organization of sorts, reported a developing trend in corporate America.

1242
01:21:40,813 --> 01:21:46,293
Speaker 3: Corporations across the United States were backing away from DEI diversity,

1243
01:21:46,453 --> 01:21:50,333
Speaker 3: equity and inclusion. And by the way, that's what they're

1244
01:21:50,333 --> 01:21:54,293
Speaker 3: calling Kamala Harris at the moment the DEI candidate. Actually

1245
01:21:54,333 --> 01:21:57,613
Speaker 3: that goes back to the twenty twenty election. She was

1246
01:21:57,653 --> 01:22:01,373
Speaker 3: the DEI candidate and then she was the DEI vice president.

1247
01:22:01,493 --> 01:22:04,093
Speaker 3: Now she might very well be well now she won't

1248
01:22:04,333 --> 01:22:09,533
Speaker 3: in fact, but she could be the DEI president. Anyway,

1249
01:22:09,613 --> 01:22:13,413
Speaker 3: Where was I. In January, Axios reported a developing trend

1250
01:22:13,493 --> 01:22:17,973
Speaker 3: in Corporate America. Corporations across the United States were backing

1251
01:22:18,013 --> 01:22:22,093
Speaker 3: away from DEI, which had become a minefield for companies

1252
01:22:22,093 --> 01:22:25,373
Speaker 3: following a multi year boom in diversity, equity and inclusion

1253
01:22:25,413 --> 01:22:30,373
Speaker 3: space following the death in twenty twenty of George Floyd.

1254
01:22:30,613 --> 01:22:35,333
Speaker 3: Corporations were pulling back on DEI initiatives. The risks were

1255
01:22:35,333 --> 01:22:38,613
Speaker 3: too great, especially in what was expected to be a

1256
01:22:38,613 --> 01:22:43,813
Speaker 3: politically charged election season amid growing attacks from conservatives targeting

1257
01:22:44,013 --> 01:22:48,853
Speaker 3: woke corporations, of which there are many. Axius wasn't wrong

1258
01:22:48,893 --> 01:22:51,853
Speaker 3: about the trend, which has only picked up steam this summer,

1259
01:22:52,373 --> 01:22:56,573
Speaker 3: so here's some examples. In July, John Deere announced that

1260
01:22:56,613 --> 01:23:00,693
Speaker 3: it was stepping away from DEI efforts and would cease

1261
01:23:00,853 --> 01:23:06,093
Speaker 3: sponsoring social or cultural awareness events. The announcement came a

1262
01:23:06,853 --> 01:23:11,213
Speaker 3: week after Business Insight reported that Microsoft had laid off

1263
01:23:11,253 --> 01:23:16,253
Speaker 3: its entire DEITAM. Microsoft's action, in turn, had come just

1264
01:23:16,333 --> 01:23:20,933
Speaker 3: weeks after Tractor Supply, a Brentwood, Tennessee based company, decided

1265
01:23:20,973 --> 01:23:24,373
Speaker 3: to pull the plug on its social activism efforts in

1266
01:23:24,413 --> 01:23:28,013
Speaker 3: the face of a social media campaign targeting the company.

1267
01:23:28,733 --> 01:23:32,653
Speaker 3: The backlash against DEI has been so intense that the

1268
01:23:32,773 --> 01:23:36,173
Speaker 3: term itself appears to be going the way of the DODO.

1269
01:23:36,413 --> 01:23:40,653
Speaker 3: The Society for Human Resource Management recently announced it was

1270
01:23:40,733 --> 01:23:45,293
Speaker 3: ditching the word equity from its acronym. DEI is just

1271
01:23:45,333 --> 01:23:48,693
Speaker 3: one form of corporate social activism, which comes in various

1272
01:23:48,733 --> 01:23:54,013
Speaker 3: forms and includes its cousin environmental social and governance ESG.

1273
01:23:54,853 --> 01:23:59,453
Speaker 3: Both ideas fall under, to some degree, corporate social responsibility,

1274
01:23:59,573 --> 01:24:04,413
Speaker 3: known as CSR, the idea that corporations have a duty

1275
01:24:04,893 --> 01:24:09,373
Speaker 3: to take social and environmental actions into consideration in their

1276
01:24:09,613 --> 01:24:13,453
Speaker 3: business models. Now, if you're wondering why Burger King has

1277
01:24:13,453 --> 01:24:18,333
Speaker 3: commercials on climate change and cowfarts, and why bud Light's

1278
01:24:18,373 --> 01:24:24,413
Speaker 3: commercials went from featuring Rodney Dangerfield and Bob Uker I

1279
01:24:24,453 --> 01:24:28,773
Speaker 3: don't know his name, Bob Buker to transactivist Dylan mulvaney,

1280
01:24:29,853 --> 01:24:35,053
Speaker 3: it's because of CSR. Corporate social responsibility, the idea that

1281
01:24:35,093 --> 01:24:39,613
Speaker 3: corporation should fight for social causes, has skyrocketed in recent

1282
01:24:39,693 --> 01:24:43,293
Speaker 3: years in such to such an extent that activism is

1283
01:24:43,493 --> 01:24:48,013
Speaker 3: inhibiting companies in their primary mission. Well, who would have

1284
01:24:48,133 --> 01:24:54,733
Speaker 3: guessed generating profits by serving customers. Bud Light's decision to feature.

1285
01:24:55,573 --> 01:24:58,813
Speaker 3: I'm picking from this article as it's fairly lengthy. Bud

1286
01:24:58,893 --> 01:25:03,013
Speaker 3: Light's decision to feature mulvaney costs them an estimated one

1287
01:25:03,093 --> 01:25:07,013
Speaker 3: point four billion dollars in sales, and it revealed the

1288
01:25:07,133 --> 01:25:11,933
Speaker 3: danger of corporation's leaning into social activism, particularly campaigns and

1289
01:25:12,013 --> 01:25:17,893
Speaker 3: policies that alienate their own customer bases. I'm not alone.

1290
01:25:17,973 --> 01:25:20,093
Speaker 3: I know every one of you would have thought the

1291
01:25:20,133 --> 01:25:22,933
Speaker 3: same thing when you saw because we all saw them.

1292
01:25:23,133 --> 01:25:27,933
Speaker 3: When we saw that idiotic ad with that idiotic individual,

1293
01:25:28,893 --> 01:25:32,333
Speaker 3: you just knew it was going to blow the company apart. Anyway.

1294
01:25:32,413 --> 01:25:35,853
Speaker 3: Not long ago, companies like Chick fil A faced backlash

1295
01:25:35,893 --> 01:25:40,373
Speaker 3: from progressive activists for progressive activists you know of the

1296
01:25:40,413 --> 01:25:45,653
Speaker 3: adernkind for supporting traditional marriage. Culture war advocates on the

1297
01:25:45,773 --> 01:25:50,173
Speaker 3: right have responded in similar fashion. Conservative influences have made

1298
01:25:50,173 --> 01:25:54,853
Speaker 3: a point in raising awareness around woke corporate initiatives, white

1299
01:25:54,893 --> 01:26:01,213
Speaker 3: privilege campaigns, climate change goals, LGBTQ events. The most successful ones,

1300
01:26:01,333 --> 01:26:06,013
Speaker 3: such as Robbie Starbuck, who pioneered the campaign against Tractor

1301
01:26:06,013 --> 01:26:09,693
Speaker 3: Supply and John Deere, made a point targeting corporations with

1302
01:26:09,813 --> 01:26:13,493
Speaker 3: conservative consumer bases. Starbuck recently told The Wall Street journal.

1303
01:26:14,013 --> 01:26:17,853
Speaker 3: If I started a boycott against Starbucks now I know

1304
01:26:18,053 --> 01:26:21,493
Speaker 3: it wouldn't get anywhere near the same result. One can

1305
01:26:21,533 --> 01:26:26,373
Speaker 3: support Robbie Starbucks's tactics or oppose them. What's clear is

1306
01:26:26,413 --> 01:26:31,533
Speaker 3: that corporations increasingly face risks for participating in social activism campaigns,

1307
01:26:32,053 --> 01:26:35,013
Speaker 3: and the threats now come from both sides of the

1308
01:26:35,173 --> 01:26:42,693
Speaker 3: political aisle CSR Corporate social responsibility can help business reach

1309
01:26:42,813 --> 01:26:46,373
Speaker 3: the goals of social justice and economic prosperity by creating

1310
01:26:46,413 --> 01:26:49,853
Speaker 3: welfare for a broad range of social groups beyond the

1311
01:26:49,893 --> 01:26:54,453
Speaker 3: corporations and their shareholders. He wrote, this is a version

1312
01:26:54,493 --> 01:26:58,933
Speaker 3: of stakeholder capitalism, an idea that says corporations must look

1313
01:26:58,973 --> 01:27:03,573
Speaker 3: beyond serving customers to generate the profits for shareholders. Various

1314
01:27:03,613 --> 01:27:07,333
Speaker 3: other stakeholders must be considered. No, they mustn't, and it's already,

1315
01:27:07,653 --> 01:27:11,533
Speaker 3: as we're discovered, proving to be a huge failure. I

1316
01:27:11,533 --> 01:27:14,653
Speaker 3: remember there was in New Zealand there was a situation

1317
01:27:14,773 --> 01:27:17,613
Speaker 3: where something that was happening in the north of the

1318
01:27:17,653 --> 01:27:22,933
Speaker 3: North Island from memory, got interfered with, if your pardon

1319
01:27:22,973 --> 01:27:28,013
Speaker 3: the expression, got interfeed with by so called stakeholders in

1320
01:27:28,053 --> 01:27:31,213
Speaker 3: the bottom of the South Island who had no investment

1321
01:27:31,253 --> 01:27:35,253
Speaker 3: in the operation whatsoever. Other than this sort of attitude

1322
01:27:35,293 --> 01:27:39,613
Speaker 3: gave them permission to be troublesome. Over time, other incantations

1323
01:27:39,613 --> 01:27:44,653
Speaker 3: of stakeholder capitalism emerged, including ESG, which stemmed directly from

1324
01:27:44,733 --> 01:27:48,773
Speaker 3: a two thousand and four report Who Cares Wins spearheaded

1325
01:27:48,813 --> 01:27:54,493
Speaker 3: by the United Nations Asset Management Groups and Banks. Its

1326
01:27:54,533 --> 01:27:57,453
Speaker 3: purpose was to develop guidelines and recommendations on how to

1327
01:27:57,533 --> 01:28:03,533
Speaker 3: better integrate environmental, social, and corporate governance issues in asset management, securities,

1328
01:28:03,533 --> 01:28:10,413
Speaker 3: brokeraage services, and associated research functions. These guidelines and recommendations

1329
01:28:10,453 --> 01:28:15,333
Speaker 3: eventually morphed into a global ESG framework which graded publicly

1330
01:28:15,373 --> 01:28:20,933
Speaker 3: traded companies on social responsibility. Now, while corporations are free

1331
01:28:21,013 --> 01:28:24,413
Speaker 3: to inject values into the workplace and support social and

1332
01:28:24,493 --> 01:28:28,973
Speaker 3: religious programs, they have no societal responsibility to do so.

1333
01:28:30,053 --> 01:28:33,373
Speaker 3: In fact, there are compelling reasons why they should not

1334
01:28:33,773 --> 01:28:37,613
Speaker 3: be doing so. The Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman

1335
01:28:37,733 --> 01:28:41,693
Speaker 3: wrote what he is perhaps the most famous rebuttal to

1336
01:28:42,093 --> 01:28:45,973
Speaker 3: CSR in a nineteen seventy New York Times article titled

1337
01:28:46,373 --> 01:28:50,493
Speaker 3: a Freedman Doctrine. The social responsibility of business is to

1338
01:28:50,573 --> 01:28:55,693
Speaker 3: increase its profits. Freedman accused champions of CSR of preaching

1339
01:28:55,773 --> 01:29:00,693
Speaker 3: pure and unadulterated socialism and being puppets of the intellectual

1340
01:29:00,773 --> 01:29:05,173
Speaker 3: forces that have been undermining the basis of a free society,

1341
01:29:06,213 --> 01:29:10,293
Speaker 3: Which would probably be an appropriate place to terminate this.

1342
01:29:10,693 --> 01:29:14,213
Speaker 3: But I shan't Freedman understood the corporations do not have

1343
01:29:14,333 --> 01:29:18,733
Speaker 3: a social responsibility or a religious one beyond serving their

1344
01:29:18,773 --> 01:29:24,333
Speaker 3: consumers and generating profits. This is their raison deetre at

1345
01:29:24,413 --> 01:29:28,333
Speaker 3: how they best serve society. They don't have a responsibility

1346
01:29:28,333 --> 01:29:33,213
Speaker 3: to spread religion, order champion diversity, or to stop climate change,

1347
01:29:33,853 --> 01:29:37,893
Speaker 3: or to promote equity. These values might be good, might

1348
01:29:37,933 --> 01:29:42,253
Speaker 3: be good, but it's not the responsibility of corporations to

1349
01:29:42,653 --> 01:29:46,293
Speaker 3: promote them. This is the most famous element of Freedman.

1350
01:29:46,453 --> 01:29:49,213
Speaker 3: Of the Freedman doctrine writes the order, but I don't

1351
01:29:49,213 --> 01:29:52,733
Speaker 3: think it's the most important one. The most important line

1352
01:29:52,773 --> 01:29:56,213
Speaker 3: is Friedman's warning on the dangers of straying from this model,

1353
01:29:56,653 --> 01:29:59,493
Speaker 3: which he makes at the beginning of the same paragraph.

1354
01:29:59,813 --> 01:30:05,573
Speaker 3: The doctrine of social responsibility, taken seriously, would extend the

1355
01:30:05,613 --> 01:30:11,053
Speaker 3: scope of the political mechanism to every human activity. It

1356
01:30:11,093 --> 01:30:15,333
Speaker 3: does not differ in philosophy from the most explicitly collective doctrine.

1357
01:30:15,813 --> 01:30:19,773
Speaker 3: It differs only by professing to believe that collectivist ends

1358
01:30:20,213 --> 01:30:24,773
Speaker 3: can be attained without collectivist means. This is the true

1359
01:30:25,053 --> 01:30:30,053
Speaker 3: danger of CSR stakeholder capitalism, or any of the alphabet

1360
01:30:30,213 --> 01:30:35,133
Speaker 3: soup acronyms that seek to replace capitalism with collectivist systems

1361
01:30:35,493 --> 01:30:38,853
Speaker 3: that seek to undermine the rights of property owners. Its

1362
01:30:38,973 --> 01:30:44,493
Speaker 3: risks extending politics into our private lives beyond its proper scope.

1363
01:30:44,853 --> 01:30:47,493
Speaker 3: One of the hallmarks of a totalitarian society is that

1364
01:30:47,573 --> 01:30:51,413
Speaker 3: public and private leavers of power are utilized to enforce

1365
01:30:51,453 --> 01:30:55,573
Speaker 3: adherents to state dogmas, and Freedman was not the first

1366
01:30:55,613 --> 01:30:59,773
Speaker 3: to recognize the potential dangers of corporate social activism, and

1367
01:30:59,813 --> 01:31:03,253
Speaker 3: that shall do us. I think the article is extremely good,

1368
01:31:03,613 --> 01:31:08,813
Speaker 3: extremely timely, and valid to hang on to, better to

1369
01:31:08,813 --> 01:31:11,453
Speaker 3: put up in corporate boardrooms, and if you need to

1370
01:31:11,493 --> 01:31:14,493
Speaker 3: know where it comes from, here are the details. The

1371
01:31:14,533 --> 01:31:18,253
Speaker 3: author John Miltamore m I L T I m o ire.

1372
01:31:18,653 --> 01:31:21,653
Speaker 3: He is the managing editor of pe dot org f

1373
01:31:21,893 --> 01:31:26,973
Speaker 3: W and a senior writer at ai e R, the

1374
01:31:27,013 --> 01:31:31,133
Speaker 3: American Institute of Economic Research. His writing and reporting has

1375
01:31:31,133 --> 01:31:33,733
Speaker 3: been the subject of articles in Time Magazine, The Wall

1376
01:31:33,733 --> 01:31:37,333
Speaker 3: Street Journal, CNN, Forbes, Fox News, and the Star Tribune.

1377
01:31:37,533 --> 01:31:39,773
Speaker 3: If you want to hang it on your corporate wall,

1378
01:31:41,133 --> 01:31:46,413
Speaker 3: that's how you will find it, Leighton Smith. That will

1379
01:31:46,413 --> 01:31:50,253
Speaker 3: take us out for podcast two five two do not forget.

1380
01:31:50,253 --> 01:31:52,253
Speaker 3: Please that if you'd like to correspond, and we love

1381
01:31:52,293 --> 01:31:58,373
Speaker 3: your correspondence, the pithia the better when appropriate Layton at

1382
01:31:58,413 --> 01:32:02,253
Speaker 3: newstalksib dot co dot mz or Carolyn at newstalksib dot

1383
01:32:02,253 --> 01:32:06,853
Speaker 3: co dot mz. We shall return shortly with podcast number

1384
01:32:06,853 --> 01:32:09,653
Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty three in the meantime, As always,

1385
01:32:09,693 --> 01:32:12,573
Speaker 3: thank you for listening and we shall talk soon.

1386
01:32:20,773 --> 01:32:24,653
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen

1387
01:32:24,733 --> 01:32:27,693
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1388
01:32:27,773 --> 01:32:30,933
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio