1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:05,760 Speaker 1: Chiyoda. 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 2: daily podcast. 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Presented by the New Zealand Herald. 5 00:00:15,760 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 2: There's a new plan to reopen the Christ Church Cathedral 6 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 2: in stages. It's after the reinstatement of the iconic building 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 2: came to a stand still last year when the project 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: was unable to secure an extra eighty five to ninety 9 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 2: five million dollars. 10 00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:35,240 Speaker 1: The new plan still comes with a funding. 11 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 2: Shortfall of about forty to forty five million dollars. This 12 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:43,400 Speaker 2: news is just the latest in a saga that's haunted 13 00:00:43,479 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 2: Cantabrians since the cathedral was severely. 14 00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: Damaged in the Canterbury earthquakes. 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 2: Today on the Front Page, we speak with former National 16 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 2: MP and minister supporting Greater christ Church Regeneration, Nicki Wagner 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 2: about what was like early on behind the curve when 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 2: those hard decisions were being made. But first we hear 19 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 2: about the latest announcement from Newstalks. That'd be reporter Jamie Cunningham. 20 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 2: So tell me, Jamie, what's the latest development. 21 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:18,680 Speaker 3: Well, we've got news that bears a new stage plan 22 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 3: to rebuild and refurbish the cathedral, hopefully reopening it to 23 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 3: the public by twenty thirty. Of course, the rebuild was 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 3: paused indefinitely last August because of an eighty five million 25 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 3: dollars shortfall, and at that point there was eighty two 26 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 3: million orden to the rebuild. Another six million has gone 27 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: since then, and so this new plan involves opening the 28 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 3: front half pretty much of the cathedral, so the entrance way, 29 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: the nave which is the seating area, the tower bell 30 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 3: and the rose window. And so that plan opening just 31 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: this section will have that funding shortfall to forty forty 32 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 3: five million dollars, as the Anglican Church has pledged to 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:15,359 Speaker 3: give another twenty million, which they weren't originally going to do. 34 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,639 Speaker 3: We've also talked to the Reinstatement Group chair Mark Stewart. 35 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: He says they're hoping this funding shortfall, the forty forty 36 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 3: five million dollars comes from the government and the City Council. 37 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 3: The City Council have pledged to donate ten million, but 38 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 3: only three million has been received at the moment, and 39 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 3: of course the government declined an emergency I guess from 40 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 3: the team last year asking for more money. So it's 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,080 Speaker 3: a bit up in the air, but be hopeful that 42 00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: because it's not as much as the original shortful that 43 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 3: this may be able to go through and the public 44 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 3: will come through just in time for the one hundred 45 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 3: and fiftieth anniversary in twenty thirty one of the cathedral. 46 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,239 Speaker 2: So in terms of that funding shortfall, that's been cut 47 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: in half. 48 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: Right, So they were looking for eighty five to. 49 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: Ninety five million last year, then now saying look, we 50 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 2: only need forty to forty five million, but eventually they 51 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 2: will still need that extra money to open up the rest. 52 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: Of the cathedral. 53 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 4: Right. 54 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,079 Speaker 1: What are they hoping happens between now and then. 55 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:25,119 Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, the Dean of the Cathedral being Truman, he's 56 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 3: really hopeful that once it gets to this first stage 57 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 3: opening in twenty thirty that this will attract the tourists 58 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 3: just people of christ Church into the area and will 59 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 3: just create more opportunities. Will be private investors will also 60 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: actually see the opportunity of donating to this project and 61 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 3: what it does for christ Church, and he's, yeah, Truman 62 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: is really hopeful that after this first stage gets to 63 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 3: the point of opening, that it will kind of just 64 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 3: create a domino effect and more money will come from 65 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 3: the avenues they've already received. So twenty million a roundabout 66 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 3: have come from private investors already to this point. 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: And what was it like there at the announcement? I mean, 68 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 2: did it feel like a real last debtch effort. 69 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: It was my first time going inside the fencing, and 70 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 3: you just can't imagine how much organization it has. From 71 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 3: the outside, it doesn't look like. 72 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: Much, but there's such a big area. 73 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 3: They've got offices right next to the cathedral, and it's 74 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 3: clear that this has been in the works for a while. 75 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 5: It was very organized. 76 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 3: All the people there were very upbeat. It seems like 77 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 3: after a turbulent last year that they're really hopeful that 78 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,440 Speaker 3: this plan is going to work. And it does seem 79 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 3: like it is a better option that they probably could 80 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 3: have considered before this point. But they're really hopeful that 81 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: because Christ you're just humming, that it's going to be successful. 82 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 2: And you mentioned the first stage includes the cathedral part, 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 2: so that's with all the chairs and the pews and 84 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 2: things and a couple of other things. What would be 85 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 2: the second stage? I suppose how many stages? 86 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: Did they say They don't have any clarity around the 87 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:17,719 Speaker 3: rest of the stages, but they have said that actually 88 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,880 Speaker 3: when the cathedral was originally built for opening in eighteen 89 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 3: eighty one, that it took forty years in stages, so 90 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 3: they're kind of mirroring how it was originally built, and 91 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 3: so I guess for them it's really just the focus 92 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 3: of getting their entrance way open so people can go 93 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 3: inside and see what it's like. Of course there's been tours, 94 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 3: but around seven hundred people can fit in the seating 95 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 3: area once they get it open, and then from there 96 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,920 Speaker 3: it's just I guess what's the most viable and what 97 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 3: makes sense to open negs. 98 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,159 Speaker 1: Well, let's hope it doesn't take another forty years. Thank 99 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,719 Speaker 1: you so much for joining us, Jamie. Thank you. 100 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: When Nicki Wagner was put in charge of regenerating christ Church, 101 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 2: she said she was excited. 102 00:06:11,720 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: And up for the challenge. 103 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 2: She said, we've got through the disaster. Now we're moving on. 104 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: To the regeneration phase. She joins us. Now, So first off, Niki. 105 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 2: After the quakes, the cathedral sat broken and neglected for 106 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 2: years now. There was a lot of back and forth 107 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: in the beginning court cases and the like, appeals, etc. 108 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 2: That in twenty fifteen a working group was established and 109 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: finally a twenty seventeen final report came through take us 110 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:43,479 Speaker 2: from there. 111 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 4: Yes, well, when that report came through, basically it said 112 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 4: that for one hundred and four million dollars you could 113 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 4: reinstate the cathedral. It meant that that was more than 114 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,679 Speaker 4: fifty thousand dollars dollars more than their insurance for the church. 115 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 4: The church had something like forty two million dollars worth 116 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 4: of insurance. So it was a matter of finding that 117 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 4: difference between the two and how that could happen. But 118 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 4: you really can't understand the decisions that were made in 119 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:24,240 Speaker 4: twenty seventeen unless you understand the debate that went on 120 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 4: before that time, and also the significance of the christ 121 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 4: Church Cathedral. And if you go back to the very 122 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: early days before people actually turned up in christ Church, 123 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 4: they were thinking of a cathedral, so it predated people 124 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 4: even arriving here. And they were only here for about 125 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 4: six years before they were seriously driving the cathedral and 126 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 4: fourteen years after they turned up they started building it. 127 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 4: And if you consider it, there was only three to 128 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 4: four thousand Europeans set in that time and very few 129 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 4: mari because they were they just used the Canterbury area 130 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 4: as more seasonal Hangarkai collection and disvisiting, they didn't actually 131 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 4: live on the christ Church area. Three or four thousand 132 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 4: people committed to building that cathedral, and it did take 133 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 4: forty years. It did stop in the middle because they 134 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 4: ran out of money. But you think of what a 135 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 4: huge undertaking it was for such a small number of people. 136 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: How would you describe the cathedral and what it means 137 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: to the people of christ Church two people outside of 138 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,080 Speaker 2: the city, Because I'm sure that you've had this multiple times. 139 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 2: People were just saying, well, why don't you just boil 140 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 2: it down? Why do you need it? 141 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: It's a church, it's religious, did it da? 142 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 4: Yep, absolutely, And that was the big debate, and I 143 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,800 Speaker 4: suspect it was probably a fifty to fifty ish debate. 144 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 4: I mean, some of the surveys said fifty eight percent 145 00:08:56,960 --> 00:08:59,280 Speaker 4: of the people wanted to rebuild it, but then they 146 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 4: thought twice when they thought. 147 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:00,959 Speaker 1: Of the money. 148 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 4: So it was a pretty general discussion, and that's why 149 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 4: the discussion was so heated and so passionate for over 150 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:14,560 Speaker 4: six years. But the issue really was that it sat 151 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 4: in the center of christ Church. Now, if you think 152 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 4: about christ Church when it was first built, it was 153 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 4: much smaller. It was where people walked past every day. 154 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 4: They saw it every day. When I was a child 155 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 4: in the fifties and sixties, it used to be the 156 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 4: center of the cities, or the busses stopped there, so 157 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 4: everybody who went anywhere into the city, the trams or 158 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 4: the buses, they went past the cathedral. There were six 159 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 4: cinemas in Cathedral Square, and if you look at the 160 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 4: pictures back from that time, it was often absolutely full 161 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 4: of people, crowds that you'd never see these days in 162 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 4: that sort of area. So it was very much central 163 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 4: to the life of christ Church. And on top of that, 164 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 4: it had traditions. At most families, regardless of whether they 165 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 4: were Anglicans or any kind of religion or non religion, 166 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 4: they would pop in there at Christmas and put something 167 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 4: under the big, huge Christmas tree, and most christ Church 168 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 4: people would say, oh, yes, we used to go there 169 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 4: at Christmas. And they also had the spire and that 170 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 4: was almost like a rite of passage for kids to 171 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 4: climb up the curling steps to the spire and look 172 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 4: out over this busy, vibrant square full of people. So 173 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 4: it was very much part of the environment what you 174 00:10:31,840 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 4: did of a day you knew it existed and whether 175 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 4: you were actually involved in the religion and went to church, 176 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 4: there was beside the point. On top of that, of 177 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,959 Speaker 4: course it had the bells, and the bells used to 178 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 4: ring out and they would ring out across christ Church, 179 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,439 Speaker 4: so people heard it as well, so it was very 180 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 4: much part of christ Church lifestyle. And then on top 181 00:10:55,760 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 4: of that it was used as a symbol. And if 182 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 4: you think back to the news on Telling when it 183 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 4: first came in, they had pictures of the cathedral representing 184 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 4: christ Church. We had a television program all about christ 185 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 4: Church and the pictures of the cathedral came up first. 186 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: It was there if you. 187 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 4: Got something from the city council, there was a picture 188 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 4: of the cathedral on the invoice. And for a while 189 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 4: we had the slogan christ Church is the city that Shines, 190 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:25,960 Speaker 4: and there was a picture of the cathedral with a 191 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 4: winding path going up to it. So it was whether 192 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 4: you cared about it or actively noticed it, it was always. 193 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 1: There, I imagine. 194 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 2: Then it became just a stark reminder of the tragedy 195 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: that happened during the Canterbury earthquakes as well, having to 196 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 2: walk past the ruins every day, and still for some 197 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 2: people still having still see it there. 198 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: It must be very difficult. 199 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 4: I think you're right, And that was very much the 200 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 4: feeling of the debate at the time. Until we put 201 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 4: this debate to bed and make a decision, the city 202 00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,960 Speaker 4: can't move on. For many people, it was like the 203 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 4: heart of the city. And it wasn't just the building itself, 204 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 4: it was Cathedral Square as well, and it was a 205 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 4: really strong statement that while this building is looking broken, 206 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 4: christ Church will be seen to be broken and felt 207 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 4: to be broken. 208 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 2: So we're in twenty seventeen, one hundred and seven million 209 00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 2: dollar cost. The government's fronting grants and loans of twenty 210 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 2: five mil, the council's fronting ten million dollars, and they 211 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 2: reckon they'll get the rest of it raised, and they 212 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: wanted it done by twenty twenty seven. Now obviously that 213 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: hasn't happened. At the time, did you see those plans, 214 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: because there was a lot of numbers being thrown around about. Oh, 215 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 2: but this report says it can cost sixty odd million. 216 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 2: This one over here says it's going to cost this 217 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 2: Did you truly believe that it was going to be 218 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 2: one hundred and seven million and it was going to 219 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 2: be done by twenty twenty seven. 220 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 4: Probably not to the extent that common sense would tell 221 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 4: you that all buildings escalate, and a complex reinstatement like that, 222 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 4: and remembering it wasn't a restoration, we weren't putting it 223 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 4: back brickbry brick. We were actually upgrading it as well, 224 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 4: so that it was more for the purpose going forward, which 225 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 4: makes good common sense. Certainly. The timing, I have to say, 226 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 4: we've always been optimistic about the timing for the rebuild 227 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 4: of christ Church, but when I look back on it, 228 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 4: I'm really glad we were. When we first started talking 229 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 4: about rebuilding christ Church as a whole. Overseas, people said 230 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 4: twenty five years. It takes twenty five years to rebuild 231 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 4: a city. And we sat there and said, really five years. 232 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 4: Look where young, we're vital, we're going to make it happen. 233 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 4: We're small country, we've only got one layer of government. 234 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 4: Surely we can do it faster than that. And so 235 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 4: we thought ten fifteen years maybe. But in reality, if 236 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 4: we had told the people of christ Church, look forget 237 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 4: about it for twenty five years, I don't know if 238 00:14:24,040 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 4: the people would be here. A lot of people, particularly 239 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 4: people with young children, they left because they just didn't 240 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 4: want their children to see this broken city. And I 241 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 4: live in the center city and we had demolition probably 242 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 4: for two years. Every single day you just heard the demolition. 243 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 4: And then we had another two years of building. And 244 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 4: the funny thing was there was a totally different headspace 245 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 4: from demolition to building demolition. It was coming down, building 246 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 4: was building it up. So we felt much more enthusiastic 247 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 4: in the next two years. But even so it was 248 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 4: a huge disruption. So I think if we had been 249 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 4: not as optimistic, probably we would have seen a worse 250 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 4: outcome for christ Church. And I think, yes, we've waited, 251 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 4: but you can see how wonderful the results have been 252 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 4: in so many ways. People are coming to christ Church now, 253 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 4: we've managed to keep the cost of housing down. Young 254 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 4: people are coming to the university, walking through round the 255 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 4: River is fantastic, the new sports center, the new stadium. 256 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 4: It's certainly christ Church is really going ahead out of 257 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:35,040 Speaker 4: that disaster. 258 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:39,119 Speaker 2: Of course, at the time you were appointed Minister supporting 259 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 2: Greater christ Church for Regeneration. 260 00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 4: Long title. 261 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a curly one in terms of looking back 262 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 2: at that time, because I was reporting in christ Church 263 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 2: at that time as well. And I think both you 264 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 2: and I had to do a lot of googling and 265 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: try and remember what it was like during that time, 266 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: and I completely forgot about the animosity towards Bishop Victoria 267 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 2: Matthews because she was heralded. You know, she was really 268 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: championing the idea of a modern cathedral, which would obviously 269 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: cost a lot less, and she carried that through all 270 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 2: of the discussions, and of course, after this twenty seventeen 271 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 2: report and decision came out, she resigned six months later. 272 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 5: Any regrets, I think early on I probably should have 273 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 5: gone to the people who were screaming the loudest and saying, 274 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 5: we can't do it this way, let's talk. We kept 275 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 5: saying we were going to do that, and then there'd 276 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 5: be another last suit and it never happened. I wish 277 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 5: I'd gotten in before one of those lawsuits. 278 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: And who are those people you're talking about. 279 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 5: I'm not going to name names in terms of groups 280 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 5: at all, heritage people who carried both the reinstatement for 281 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 5: the cathedral, but I'm not getting into names. It's not personal. 282 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: Do you think that she's somewhere, perhaps somewhere in Canada, 283 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: because she really does have her and I told you 284 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 2: so moment, right. 285 00:17:06,720 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: Because I think we could have had three or four 286 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: modern cathedrals by now. 287 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 4: I think you're right. I think there was a huge 288 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 4: animosity towards her, But I think again, you've got to 289 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 4: consider the context. Everybody's looking for a scapegoat. When you 290 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 4: have a major disaster, everybody pulls together. And I have 291 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 4: to say, I've never been so proud of the people 292 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 4: of christ chur just as they manage that first, you know, 293 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 4: first few days, weeks, months, but after a while, they 294 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 4: get tired, they get worn down, they get fractious, and 295 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 4: everybody's looking for a scapegoat, and this was she was 296 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,400 Speaker 4: a pretty good scapegoat. The argument was, oh, she doesn't 297 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 4: understand us, she's foreign. No, she doesn't know. But I 298 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:53,560 Speaker 4: was listening, as I say, I googled and looked back 299 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 4: on her. Everything she said was very reasonable and very 300 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 4: thoughtful and actually in line with what the church should do. 301 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,360 Speaker 4: What she said was we only have forty two million dollars. 302 00:18:10,320 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 4: It's the church itself is not really fit for purpose. 303 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 4: She also made the statement that the whole world went 304 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 4: She said, go to any small town in England and 305 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 4: you'll see a similar building, and she's absolutely right, but 306 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 4: they were not the sort of things we wanted to hear. 307 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: And I think at one point she actually said, it's 308 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 2: not like it's the taj Mahal, that's right. 309 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 1: It's like, oh, don't like. I mean, she's right, but 310 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 1: don't say it. 311 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 4: Pay that to us. I know, and I don't think 312 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 4: she really I mean, we had long conversations. I would 313 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 4: meet with her every Sunday afternoon and we would have 314 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 4: coffee and we talked and talked and talked and talked, 315 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 4: and she felt bullied by some of these groups. She 316 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 4: felt her intrinsic belief was we should be looking after 317 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 4: the people, that it's only a building. But she could 318 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,920 Speaker 4: get no traction on that because everybody says she doesn't understand. 319 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:15,360 Speaker 4: So I I'm listening to her and going through some 320 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 4: of those old interviews. I think she was really reasonable, 321 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 4: but she became a scapegoat and people were rabbit about 322 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 4: how they spoke about her. 323 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and everything in retrospect. 324 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 4: Right, we respect absolutely. 325 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: When looking at those conversations, it was fiery from the 326 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: outside looking in, right, What was it like behind those 327 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: closed doors? 328 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 4: Fiery as well? There were people and I think what 329 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 4: we have to think back again. It's all in context. 330 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 4: When you go back to those times, you have to 331 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 4: see how many things had been broken in christ Church, 332 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 4: how much we had lost, how much people were hurting. 333 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 4: And what you had to do from that is see 334 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,400 Speaker 4: that this was part of all of that. There were 335 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 4: people who really made it their mission to look after 336 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 4: the cathedral. Maybe they thought they couldn't control anything else, 337 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 4: but this was really important. We had people from all 338 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 4: around the world. The UNESCO Heritage Group was against the demolition. 339 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 4: The engineers one hundred New Zealand engineers got together and 340 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 4: we're against the demolition. We had two big strong log 341 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 4: lobby groups of local people against the demolition. So basically 342 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,760 Speaker 4: where we got to in that stage was we either 343 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 4: reinstated the cathedral or we faced another ten years of 344 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 4: arguing about it. These people were well resourced, they were 345 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 4: going to take it to court, they were going to 346 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,160 Speaker 4: fight it to the nth degree. So in terms of 347 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 4: a pragmatic solution, thinking of this broken heart of Christ Church, 348 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 4: if we could patch together a solution, that's what we 349 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 4: were working on and that's what we did. And in 350 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 4: the end it was the Synod who made that final decision, 351 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 4: and I went to the Synod and I talked to 352 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 4: the Synod and I explained what I saw. I also 353 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 4: really believed that it gave the Anglican Church an opportunity 354 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,919 Speaker 4: to showcase their place in the center of the city, 355 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 4: and that it could be seen as a positive for 356 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 4: the church. But as I saw, and I didn't realize 357 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 4: that fifty five percent of the synod voted for it. 358 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 4: I didn't know that until I looked it up recently. 359 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 4: So it was pretty touch and go even at that stage, 360 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 4: but I think everybody was united. We cannot go on 361 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 4: arguing forever over this. 362 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 2: The latest announcement is that they're wanting to reopen it 363 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,200 Speaker 2: in stages, So instead of needing eighty five to ninety 364 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 2: five million dollars that's what their shortfall was before, it's 365 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: now about forty to forty five million dollars. They want 366 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:02,160 Speaker 2: to open the first stage so like the main area, 367 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 2: by the end of twenty thirty, and the Anglican Church 368 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,880 Speaker 2: is actually committing another twenty million dollars towards it. How 369 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 2: does that make you feel that we could be walking 370 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: in and sitting down on one of those pews in 371 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 2: just five years time. 372 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 4: Well, originally part of that plan was it was designed 373 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 4: to be staged two. But it was designed to be 374 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 4: staged with the main part of the cathedral and then 375 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 4: the tower and the spy later. So we'd already gone 376 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 4: down that sort of lego type of building to manage 377 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 4: the money. I think it's a good thing. I think 378 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,239 Speaker 4: when you've got the convention center there, when you've got 379 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 4: the whole city coming around the river, we do need 380 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 4: that building to be saying what Christ Church is all about, 381 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 4: and it has set it for, you know, hundreds of years. 382 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 1: Really, thanks for joining us, Nicky, take care. 383 00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 4: Thanks Chelsea. 384 00:22:57,080 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 385 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 386 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:08,040 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is 387 00:23:08,080 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: produced by Jane Ye and Richard Martin, who is also 388 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: our editor. 389 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 390 00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 2: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 391 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in on Monday for another 392 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: look behind the headlines.