1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,520 Speaker 1: And of course our finance minister is Nikola Willis Hi, 2 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Nicola Hi. 3 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 2: How much are we putting into that climate finance fund? 4 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 3: Well, look, we haven't made a decision on that yet. 5 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:12,159 Speaker 3: There's no set amount that we need to put in. 6 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 3: Each country decides its contribution. Our last current climate finance 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 3: commitment for twenty two to twenty five was one point 8 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 3: three billion. That obviously ends at the end of next 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 3: year and we'll then decide on our next commitment. 10 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: That's one point three billion over three years, right, So 11 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 1: that's right, yeah, yeah, or three or four years or something, 12 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: because it works out at two hundred and thirty five. Now, 13 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: if the total package to the total package from the 14 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: rich countries to the poor countries has gone from one 15 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:38,200 Speaker 1: hundred billion to five hundred billion, so it's up five times. 16 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: Is our contribution not naturally therefore going to go up 17 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: five times? 18 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 3: Well, look, we will always do our part to support 19 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 3: global efforts on climate change and climate finance, but there 20 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 3: isn't a specific target or amount that each country must contribute. 21 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 3: So we as a cabinet need to weigh that contribution 22 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:55,920 Speaker 3: against all of the other contributions we make in terms 23 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 3: of aid, in terms of development in terms of what 24 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 3: we're doing with our own own technology, research and science 25 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 3: here at home. 26 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 2: Is it definitely going to go up? 27 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 3: There's nothing definite heither. This is something for us to 28 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 3: assess as a cabinet and make choices. 29 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: About can we make it go down? 30 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 3: Well? As I said, look, our last contribution was one 31 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 3: point three over four. There are questions for us to 32 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,120 Speaker 3: answer about do we want to make an annual contribution, 33 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 3: do we want to have that multi year contribution and 34 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 3: all of that things that were yet to step through. 35 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:28,120 Speaker 3: I haven't even taken advice on it yet. 36 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 2: What is this money being used for? 37 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:34,119 Speaker 3: Well, it goes towards those developing countries to help them 38 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: lower their emissions. So you think of the likes of 39 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 3: African countries that are still relying on coal power stations 40 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,640 Speaker 3: helping them convert the basic argument being that some of 41 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 3: those countries haven't yet gone through the development that the 42 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 3: rest of the world has and being asked to make 43 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:52,720 Speaker 3: the transition. 44 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 2: Of keys exists the same. We're facing the same trouble. 45 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:57,000 Speaker 1: Right We've got a mountain of coal setting at Huntley 46 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: because we're also struggling with the transition. How can we 47 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: justify giving money away to help other people convert when 48 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 1: we ourselves are struggling, we need the money. 49 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 3: Look, I'm sympathetic to the view that says we should 50 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,320 Speaker 3: really make sure we're doing things right at home. But 51 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 3: this is a bit similar to the aid argument in general, 52 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 3: which is yes, in New Zealand, we still have challenges 53 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 3: in our own health system, our own education system. Yet 54 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 3: as global citizens, we recognize our role in making contributions 55 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 3: to countries that are far, far, far less well off 56 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 3: than we. We're just hard of being a global city. 57 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: I take it the same principle. 58 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: But if you think about our aid budget versus this, 59 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:38,680 Speaker 1: how much is our aid budget versus what we're spending 60 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: on climate aid? 61 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, well this is obviously pretty big in proportion to 62 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: our aid budget. Our aid budget is still bigger. But 63 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: I and I in my mind do think of those 64 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 3: two buckets in a similar way. Both of them are 65 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 3: about our global contribution, and I think it's right. Your 66 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 3: point is right, we should be balancing up both of those. 67 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 3: How much are we giving an aid as a whole 68 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:00,639 Speaker 3: and what proportion of that is climate aid? 69 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 2: Jeez, okay, listen, when are you going to make a 70 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: decision on it. 71 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 3: Well, we will have advice on it obviously ahead of 72 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 3: the budget because, as I say, the current Climate Client 73 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 3: Climate Finance commitment ends at the end of next year, 74 00:03:13,440 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 3: so we'll need to make a decision ahead of the budget. 75 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 2: On the budget. Are you guys not going to hit 76 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: surplus in twenty seven to twenty eight. 77 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 3: Well, look, I'm going to make an announcement about the 78 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 3: forecasts on the seventeenth of December. But you will have 79 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 3: seen that Treasury's chief economist last week pointed out that 80 00:03:29,120 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: there are lots of challenges to that position. The biggest 81 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: challenge being that we depend on the forecasts of the 82 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,119 Speaker 3: growth in the economy. When the economy is smaller, there's 83 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:42,200 Speaker 3: less revenue, makes it harder to get a surplus. And 84 00:03:42,200 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 3: what Treasury have basically had to do is readjust all 85 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 3: of their forecasts over successive forecasts. They essentially overestimated how 86 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 3: enduring the balance back after COVID would be, and we're 87 00:03:53,240 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: now in a long hangover. So the numbers are reflecting 88 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: that I can't control Treasury's forecast assumptions. What I can 89 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 3: can control and will control, is our government's discretionary spending decisions. 90 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: Okay, but so it sounds to me like, so you're 91 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 1: going to make an announcement on December seventeen as to 92 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: whether you're going to hit that surplus or not. 93 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: That's right. That's when I share the latest forecasts, which 94 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 3: will illustrate where that sits. 95 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: Sounds to me like you guys are softening us up 96 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: for the fact that you're not going. 97 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 3: To hit it. Well, look, I've always been clear. I'm 98 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: not going to chase a surplus at all costs. Forecasts 99 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 3: move up and down. What I've committed to New Zealander 100 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 3: is is that we will make sensible, prudent fiscal decisions 101 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 3: to get the books back in balance over time, and 102 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 3: we remain on that course. 103 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 2: Which is which brings us to Robert McCulloch's column. Did 104 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 2: you read that last week when you were away? 105 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: I did hear that? And let me can I can 106 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 3: I give a response to it, because my goodness. First 107 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 3: of all, he said that I do have another year 108 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 3: to prove myself. So that's good because no one promised 109 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 3: to solve the economy in year one. Then he said, look, 110 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 3: we're having low growth. Well look my view is you 111 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 3: we are, and that's my entire raison deetra. What we 112 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 3: committed was first get inflation and under control, get interest 113 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: rates coming down, deliver neutral X relief. We've done those things. 114 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:13,160 Speaker 3: We are very focused on driving growth forward. Then he said, 115 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 3: and this was the curious bit, he said, oh, look, 116 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 3: she's not doing enough to break up monopoly powers. Well, 117 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 3: here is what I'd say to that I am different 118 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 3: from other finance ministers and that I have directly confronted 119 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 3: the major trading banks. I've said that I'm going to 120 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 3: do regulatory reform at the Reserve Bank. We have the 121 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 3: Parliamentary Select Committee inquiry going on. I am very determined 122 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 3: on that score, and I'd like to put this out 123 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 3: to Robert McCulloch. If he has more ideas on how 124 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 3: we can drive competition in the New Zealand economy to 125 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 3: break up some of these duopolies who are making too 126 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 3: much money out of New Zealanders, then I am up 127 00:05:48,680 --> 00:05:52,280 Speaker 3: for those ideas. I am a competition warrior. I love 128 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 3: markets that operate competitively and that is very much on 129 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: my agenda as a finance minister. I could keep going 130 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,120 Speaker 3: through his points here this but I felt that I 131 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,559 Speaker 3: had a response to each of them, and I basically thought, yep, 132 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: you ain't seen nothing yet. You one would to come. 133 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: Oh well please, because as point is simply which gets 134 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: us back to the surplus thing. His point are simply 135 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,479 Speaker 1: big talk not delivering right. And before the election, in 136 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: the campaign you were sneering at Labour's surplus of two 137 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 1: point one that they had projected, and you said you 138 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,479 Speaker 1: were going to deliver two point nine. But when it 139 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: comes to the crunch, actually we don't have. That's not happening. 140 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: Well, what we have done is dramatically reduced the rate 141 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 3: of expenditure growth. There's no question if labor were in 142 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 3: power now, the deficit would be a lot worse. Now. 143 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: I heard you talking on this point last week and 144 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 3: you said, look, she's actually still spending more than labor. 145 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 3: So I've gone back and I've looked at the records 146 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 3: going back to nineteen seventy two. So over more than 147 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:50,720 Speaker 3: fifty years, there is only one ever example of government 148 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:54,280 Speaker 3: spending going down in real dollar terms. Because of course, 149 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:59,359 Speaker 3: each year population grows, there's inflation, there is wage growth, 150 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 3: and so what we we have done is rapidly halt 151 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,080 Speaker 3: the rate of increase. That's the right thing to do. 152 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 3: We will continue on that course, But if the argument 153 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 3: is really that we should have slashed funding to below 154 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 3: the levels it was even while the population grew and 155 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 3: even while it was still high inflation, then I'd put 156 00:07:16,480 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 3: to you, actually, I'm a bit more compassionate than that, 157 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 3: because I do care about frontline service delivery. 158 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 2: Okay, Nichola, thank you. I really appreciate your time. That's 159 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: Nicola Willis, the Finance Minister. For more from Heather Duplessy 160 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 2: Allen Drive, Listen live to news talks. It'd be from 161 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 2: four pm weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.