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Speaker 1: Some concerns around the process of charter schools. One of

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Speaker 1: the applicants, a company called Education seventeen plus, made four submissions,

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Speaker 1: but the agency set up to process them told them

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Speaker 1: to pick one. The suggestion is that it appears a

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Speaker 1: spread of schools across the country as being prioritized over

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Speaker 1: the best applicants. The Associate Education Ministry is, of course

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Speaker 1: David Symour, who is with us good morning.

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Speaker 2: Good morning mate.

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Speaker 1: So the concern appears to come from Olwen Pool, who

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Speaker 1: of course is a seasoned campaigner in the wonderful world

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Speaker 1: of charter schools. Does he have a point?

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Speaker 2: No, he doesn't. The only point that is valid is

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Speaker 2: that there were seventy eight applications and in the budget

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Speaker 2: we only have money for fifteen. So there were always

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Speaker 2: going to be people who were disappointed, particularly people who

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Speaker 2: had some very good applications. I'm not saying whether Elwyn

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Speaker 2: Pool's was one of those, but it's certainly true that

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Speaker 2: some people with good applications are going to be missed

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Speaker 2: out this time and maybe have to apply next time

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Speaker 2: to get the kind of charters.

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Speaker 1: Saw the number of charter schools we'd all like, did

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Speaker 1: he misunderstand the rules? Of engagement. In other words, he

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Speaker 1: applied four times, presumably because he knows what he's doing.

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Speaker 1: He might well have had four good applications. The money's

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Speaker 1: simply not there the supply. The demand outstripped the supply.

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Speaker 2: That's as simple as that. I mean, for all the

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Speaker 2: people that say that we don't need charter schools, there's

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Speaker 2: seventy eight different applications to have them. They are pretty

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Speaker 2: very in quality. I look at old and Paul. He

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Speaker 2: certainly run charter schools in the past, he's run an

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Speaker 2: independent school. He did all of those as a husband

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Speaker 2: and wife team with his former wife. When he was

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Speaker 2: doing it with her. I thought the applications and the

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Speaker 2: schools were very, very impressive.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So is there a possibility that the demand will

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Speaker 1: meet the supply eventually if things go well?

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I think as people see these charter schools work,

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Speaker 2: and as they become a more normal part of New Zealand,

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Speaker 2: I think you'll see more existing state schools convert and

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Speaker 2: see a lot more of them. But you know, we're

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Speaker 2: in a situation where the government's budget's not great. Opening

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Speaker 2: new ones, at least initially, does cost a little bit

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Speaker 2: more money, and so we've rationed that at fifteen new

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Speaker 2: ones and thirty five conversions. Most of the applications we've

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Speaker 2: had have been for new ones. So it's simply a

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Speaker 2: matter off. Not everyone can be a winner. Some people

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Speaker 2: are going to be disappointed.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, cannot talk to you without the obvious this coming week.

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Speaker 1: Where are you at with meeting these people?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was pretty open minded and said, look, I'll

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Speaker 2: meet these guys. I mean, why wouldn't I talk to them?

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Speaker 2: I said that we should have a conversation about the treaty.

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Speaker 2: Two points becomes increasingly clear that with this guy, Erew

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Speaker 2: cutter Kini, he's actually the son of a Maori Party MP,

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Speaker 2: stood for the Marii Party as a candidate and at

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Speaker 2: least until recently and possibly now was a staffer on

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Speaker 2: the Maori Party's parliamentary role. It's quite possible that he

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Speaker 2: still is and has been doing this whole thing on

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Speaker 2: the taxpayer. So this is a Maori Party initiative. It's

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Speaker 2: not as much of a spontaneous uprising as people would

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Speaker 2: like them to think. This equally, and second of all,

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Speaker 2: after the behavior of Te Party mari in Parliament, I'm

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Speaker 2: having second thoughts about whether there's a lot to be

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Speaker 2: gained around a conversation here, so I stay open minded,

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Speaker 2: but I'm less keen than I was a week ago.

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Speaker 1: Is this one of these problems though, because never the

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Speaker 1: Twain shall meet having watched what happened to it, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you say, and from their point of view,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't matter what they say either. I mean, you're

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Speaker 1: never going to meet in the middle or anywhere close

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Speaker 1: to it. Hence the division. Is there more trouble than

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Speaker 1: it's worth.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really important to differentiate tear Party Maori

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Speaker 2: from Marii spokespeople, Maori representatives mightly people. Frankly, you know

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Speaker 2: there's seven of us in the cabinets of the current government.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, to Party Marii, I would say

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Speaker 2: representing and bringing up the worst in martyrdom. And what

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Speaker 2: worries me is that there'll be a lot of people

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Speaker 2: in New Zealand who believe that the Party Mary speak

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Speaker 2: for all Mary. They certainly don't. They don't speak for me.

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Speaker 2: There's a lot of people saying that what they did

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Speaker 2: in Parliament last week it's not just a national but

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Speaker 2: international embarrassment, And frankly, I think we've got to start

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Speaker 2: recognizing that this is a minority, not a minority as

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Speaker 2: in Mari, a minority within Marydom that is giving everybody

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Speaker 2: a bad name. And it's their behavior that's I don't

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Speaker 2: want to meet with, happy to meet with anyone else.

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Speaker 1: Right. So when Chris fin Layson says it's on you,

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Speaker 1: and when Jenny Shipley, I thought it was extraordinary, but

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Speaker 1: she said, you're inviting civil war? What do you say?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think Jenny Shipley, it sounds like she took

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Speaker 2: about as much care on those comments as she took

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Speaker 2: on reviewing the accounts. When two director at Mainziel, quite frankly,

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Speaker 2: I just don't know why she would say that. It

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Speaker 2: is grossly irresponsible, especially for a former prime minister. And

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Speaker 2: as Chris finlasson, he's showing the kind of haughtiness and

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Speaker 2: bitterness that is unbecoming of someone who's had their time

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Speaker 2: as a politician and should really be proud of their

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Speaker 2: achievements and ready to move on. But the real truth

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Speaker 2: of both those two is that great relations today are

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Speaker 2: very much a product of the influence that they've had

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Speaker 2: in the last twenty years. If people believe there's division,

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Speaker 2: it hasn't been created by my bill. It's been revealed

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Speaker 2: by my bill because my bill calls for equal rights

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Speaker 2: for all New Zealanders. And what we've seen is that

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who don't want equal rights.

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Speaker 2: They want a society where some people are tongue to

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Speaker 2: Fenowa or land people, and others are tongue to Tadti.

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Speaker 2: Jenny Shipley and Chris Finlason has fostered that belief that

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Speaker 2: New Zealand is actually a partnership between two collectives, which

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Speaker 2: in turn are defined by ancestry. It's never worked anywhere

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Speaker 2: in the world. It's not working here. I'm challenging that

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Speaker 2: in saying New Zealand should be a society with a

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Speaker 2: treaty that based on a treaty that gave us natkangakatota

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Speaker 2: taki or the same rights and duties. If they don't

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Speaker 2: like that, then that's fine that they have to take

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Speaker 2: some responsibility for their role in creating today's reality.

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Speaker 1: Appreciate your time, David Seymour, Associate Education Minister, and of

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Speaker 1: course for your principles, Bill Minister, I suppose you call

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