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Speaker 1: Daman Kumar set to stay parents got to go though,

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Speaker 1: tough call for the minister. I suspect a lot of

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Speaker 1: questions around how many overstars this week we've got in

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Speaker 1: the country, got no idea about now. Katie Armstrong is

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Speaker 1: the owner of Into New Zealand Immigration Back with us,

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Speaker 1: Katie morning.

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Speaker 2: Good morning mate.

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Speaker 1: The lack of stats did any of that? You know,

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Speaker 1: the fact that we haven't got a clue who's here

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Speaker 1: and who isn't? Does that surprise you, worry you, upset you.

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Speaker 2: I do find it a little bit upsetting. It doesn't

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Speaker 2: surprise me. I don't think there's much resource put into

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Speaker 2: this kind of research anymore at all. But yes, I

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Speaker 2: mean it would be extremely useful, would it not to

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Speaker 2: have some kind of better clue the last starts we're

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Speaker 2: in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Right do you? I mean, how does it materially affect

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Speaker 1: us outside of every now and again somebody comes to

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Speaker 1: our attention that may need booting out of the country.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's one way of putting it. The other way

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Speaker 2: is look at just always remembering that these are you know,

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Speaker 2: these are individual people who respect, you know, who need

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Speaker 2: dignity when treating them. But how it affects New Zealand

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Speaker 2: as a whole. I guess is that out there. I

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Speaker 2: don't think anybody would think it's particularly healthy to have long,

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Speaker 2: long term overstayers in the country, particularly these cases with children.

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Speaker 1: Do you love these people? I was thinking about the Kumas.

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Speaker 1: So at some point you become illegal and then you

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Speaker 1: go to yourself, right, well, a week's gone by, a

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Speaker 1: month's gone by, years gone by. Can I go to

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Speaker 1: somebody and try and get that rectified? Do you deal

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing or not?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Can you rectify it?

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Speaker 2: Well, there are mechanisms for rectifying, and yes, we do. So,

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Speaker 2: you know, we've got within the law. We have two

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Speaker 2: different processes for attempting to rectify. One is where you

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Speaker 2: go into the jaws of immigration New Zealand itself. It's

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Speaker 2: called a Section sixty one process. Sometimes that's successful, but

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Speaker 2: it depends on the mood of your you know, of

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Speaker 2: immigration New Zealand. The other backstop is the minister. The

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Speaker 2: thing that happened in this case with Kumar, which I

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Speaker 2: think has caused, you know, really really caused a lot

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Speaker 2: of upset, is that that was a case that was

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Speaker 2: meant to be decided by an Associate Minister whose job

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Speaker 2: it is to to, you know, be that safety net.

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Speaker 2: But in fact it was seemingly palmed off to what

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Speaker 2: we call the delegated decision makers. These are people within

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Speaker 2: Immigration New Zealand who are making some very hard nosed

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Speaker 2: decisions of late.

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Speaker 1: Is that a crapshoot if you go within as you

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Speaker 1: put it, within the jaws of the department, If you

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Speaker 1: get Brian who's in a good mood as opposed to

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Speaker 1: Sharon who's an infoul mood, can it change on that

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Speaker 1: or not?

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Speaker 2: I think our industry would say that most of the

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Speaker 2: time that the delegated decision makers are not in a

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Speaker 2: particularly good mood.

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Speaker 1: Right, So you boot it down and have they solved

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Speaker 1: the problem? He stays, parents gone. Has that solved anything?

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Speaker 2: Well, it's definitely solved something for him around his ability

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Speaker 2: to go into tertiary education. And I think it was

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Speaker 2: absolutely the right decision. It was, you know, it was

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Speaker 2: a no brainer. I think with the parents it's terribly fought.

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Speaker 2: I don't know the end of circumstances. I don't know

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Speaker 2: how they came to be overstairs. I don't know what

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Speaker 2: they've done with their lives. Clearly for the child or

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Speaker 2: the two children. It's going to be traumatic that the

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Speaker 2: parents have to leave.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but see, if you were a blunt you might

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Speaker 1: say something along the lines of maybe the parents might

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Speaker 1: like to have thought of that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I hear you, and I understand, And these

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Speaker 2: are all the different balancing acts. I think that's one

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Speaker 2: of the reasons why we haven't had the amnesty is

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Speaker 2: because people, you know this government said, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: all very well giving an amnesty to overstairs, but what

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Speaker 2: about the lawful people when we have twenty one.

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Speaker 1: It's a sort of a microcosmic version of America at

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Speaker 1: this point, isn't it well?

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Speaker 2: And I see it as an opportunity Mike four Newsum

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Speaker 2: to differentiate its approach to America. I mean, our problem,

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Speaker 2: you know, the last that's the fourteen to twenty thousand.

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Speaker 2: The UK's got maybe up to a million, noting or

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Speaker 2: maybe one point two million. Our problems are really very small.

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Speaker 2: We don't have land borders. We have to remember that,

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Speaker 2: so we could potentially sort this, but I would like

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Speaker 2: to see more work done also in parallel, on what

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Speaker 2: do we do about those long term legal people who

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Speaker 2: missed out on that twenty twenty one residence Za. That

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Speaker 2: was the big opportunity. That was the opportunity to actually

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Speaker 2: during COVID say to people who were lawful, you've got

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Speaker 2: a pathway, but where the way they sliced and diced.

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Speaker 2: It was terribly unfair. And we have got people I

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Speaker 2: spoke to one yesterday who's been here lawfully for a

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Speaker 2: good number of years contributing what happens to that person.

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Speaker 1: Striding the Pinks world and Caddy, good to have you

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Speaker 1: on the program, Caddy Armstrong. For more from the Mic

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Speaker 1: Asking Breakfast, listen live to news talks it'd be from

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Speaker 1: six am weekdays, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio