WEBVTT - 'De-extinction': Scientists are investing in Jurassic Park-like tech - but is it ethical?

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<v Speaker 1>Kyotra. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A

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<v Speaker 1>new Jurassic World movie is right around the corner, taking

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<v Speaker 1>us back to a world where dinosaurs have been brought

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<v Speaker 1>back from the dead. But what has been a science

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<v Speaker 1>fiction concept for decades now might be closer to reality.

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<v Speaker 1>Colossal Biosciences claims it successfully de extincted the dire wolf,

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<v Speaker 1>a species that has ceased to exist for around ten

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years. The biotech company, which is backed by big

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<v Speaker 1>name investors and celebrities alike, has a goal to bring

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<v Speaker 1>back the likes of the wooly mammoth, the Tasmanian tiger,

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<v Speaker 1>the Northern white rhino, and the dodo. But even if

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<v Speaker 1>it is successful, is it right? Should we let nature

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<v Speaker 1>take its course? And what would bringing back a specie

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<v Speaker 1>that disappeared thousands of years ago do to our world

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<v Speaker 1>as we know it today? Today on the front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>University of Otago Department of Zoology Associate Professor Nick Rawleans

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<v Speaker 1>is with us to discuss the ethical dilemma we now face.

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<v Speaker 1>So Nick, first off, what is all of this de

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<v Speaker 1>extinction chat and where did this concept come from?

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<v Speaker 2>The extinction is the ability by scientists to bring animals

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<v Speaker 2>back from the dead, back from extinction, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>very much similar to like Jurassic Park. Originally people wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to do de extinction using cloning, so very much like

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<v Speaker 2>what happened with Dolly the Sheep. But to clone an

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<v Speaker 2>animal you need really high quality DNA. The problem with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of extinct animals, the DNA is not high quality.

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<v Speaker 2>It's fragmented, it's chemically modified, it's been degraded. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>like if you took the Auckland Yellow Pages, which is

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<v Speaker 2>two volumes and very thick, and putted in a wood

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<v Speaker 2>fired pizza of an overnight, it comes out shards, crumbs, dust.

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<v Speaker 2>So to the extinct animals, scientists are using genetic modification.

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<v Speaker 2>They're using an enzyme called crisper, which acts like scissors

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<v Speaker 2>where you can chop out pieces of DNA and insert

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<v Speaker 2>new pieces of DNA. So with the die wolf, what

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<v Speaker 2>they do is they sequence the genome of the extinct

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<v Speaker 2>die wolf, compared it to a close relative, the gray wolf,

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<v Speaker 2>and worked out where all the differences occurred, and then

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<v Speaker 2>they chopped out the DNA out of the gray wolf

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<v Speaker 2>and inserted the DNA of the die wolf to create

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<v Speaker 2>a genetically modified hybrid. They argue, that's the thing called

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<v Speaker 2>functional de extinction. Like the famous quote, if it walks

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<v Speaker 2>like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like

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<v Speaker 2>a duck, it's a.

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<v Speaker 1>Duck, right. So that's why we're hearing about that company

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<v Speaker 1>at Colossal bio Tho Sciences. They're behind these efforts to

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<v Speaker 1>resurrect things like the wooly mammoth, the dough Dough, and

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<v Speaker 1>most recently, like you said, the rebirth of the dire wolf,

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<v Speaker 1>the ones we saw running around in Game of Thrones.

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<v Speaker 1>But they're saying the world's first successfully de extincted animal,

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<v Speaker 1>Is it really though?

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<v Speaker 2>Short answer, no, The technology they have developed is stunning

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<v Speaker 2>and will have very real world conservation benefits, but it's

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<v Speaker 2>not de extinction. This is a genetically modified designer gray wolf.

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<v Speaker 2>These die wolves are more close related to gray wolves

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<v Speaker 2>than they are to the extinct die wolves. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you think of all the individual DNA letters in a genome,

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<v Speaker 2>which are millions and millions of them, they've only done

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<v Speaker 2>twenty modifications to that genome. It's an infantistionally small amount

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<v Speaker 2>of modifications. But if we think of functional de extinction,

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<v Speaker 2>all they've got is something that looks like a die wolf.

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<v Speaker 2>They have no idea yet where that behaves like a

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<v Speaker 2>die wolf or if it talks like a die wolf,

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<v Speaker 2>can it actually fill the role of a die wolf

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<v Speaker 2>in the ecosystem, So it's not the extinction.

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<v Speaker 3>Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings was actually one

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<v Speaker 3>of our investors. Where I was sitting in Peter's house

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<v Speaker 3>with he and his partner friend, and I was like,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, I showed him the video of them howling.

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<v Speaker 3>He started tearing up. He goes, this is the first

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<v Speaker 3>time I hear a darwolf or anyone's heard a darwolf

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<v Speaker 3>in ten thousand year started well, he like he like

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<v Speaker 3>physically emotionally got chills and started crying.

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<v Speaker 1>So the company's chief animal officer said, the aim isn't

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<v Speaker 1>for a zoo or amusement park Alah Island Nubla from

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<v Speaker 1>Jurassic Park, but to reintroduce lost species back into the

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<v Speaker 1>habitats they once occupied. But if I remember from my

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<v Speaker 1>Jurassic Park studies correctly, didn't one of the plant dine

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<v Speaker 1>I get sick from eating something that it shouldn't.

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<v Speaker 2>Have, Yeah, it did. The triceratops got sick from eating

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<v Speaker 2>a plant that hadn't been around when it lived teens

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<v Speaker 2>of millions of years ago. And this is one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things is if you're trying to say de extinct

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<v Speaker 2>the die wolf, it went extinct thirteen thousand years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>The ecosystem that it was part of no longer exists.

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<v Speaker 2>If you try to extinct de mooa New Zealand's only

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<v Speaker 2>got twenty five percent forest cover. At the time of

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<v Speaker 2>human arrival, it was eighty percent forest cover. And we've

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<v Speaker 2>lost entire ecosystems that have no analogue. So Central Otago,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, used to be covered in lancewood and kofi,

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<v Speaker 2>which is very weird to think of, but there's no

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<v Speaker 2>analog of that anywhere. So you haven't got the ecosystems

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<v Speaker 2>for these animals to go back into. A lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the ecosystems are being highly highly modified. They're full of predators.

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<v Speaker 2>But also if you are going to introduce animals into

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<v Speaker 2>an ecosystem, you need them to be genetically healthy, not

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<v Speaker 2>in bread like a royal family. I think Tutan Karma

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<v Speaker 2>married his sister the Habsburgs out of Europe or even

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<v Speaker 2>Queen Victoria married her cousin. For a population to be

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<v Speaker 2>genetically healthy, you need at least five hundred individuals, which

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<v Speaker 2>is a very tall order.

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<v Speaker 1>Indeed, are there ethical concerns though, around the idea of

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<v Speaker 1>just letting nature take its course. A lot of species

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<v Speaker 1>were driven to extinction by humans, especially in New Zealand,

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<v Speaker 1>and we'll touch on that in a moment. But what

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<v Speaker 1>about those animals that just lost the fight against the

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<v Speaker 1>test of time.

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<v Speaker 2>I guess if the ecosystem was still around, there would

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<v Speaker 2>be an argument for reintroducing these animals, and that and

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be the defining argument, would be a argument. But

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<v Speaker 2>if you're going to introduce these animals, you've got to

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<v Speaker 2>think about will they be able to cope with the

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<v Speaker 2>new world that they find themselves in. They're going to

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<v Speaker 2>require a whole lot of conservation for them to survive

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<v Speaker 2>in this new ecosystem. Who's going to pay for all

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<v Speaker 2>that conservation, Who's going to pay for all that predator control?

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<v Speaker 2>And in an age of stretch budgets, where is that

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<v Speaker 2>money going to come from? So you've got this real

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<v Speaker 2>danger of what you call opportunity costs. So if you're

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<v Speaker 2>trying to conserve a de extincted moa, for example, then

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<v Speaker 2>that's probably going to pull funding away from other endangered

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<v Speaker 2>species that are worthy of conservation, like takahe or carcapo

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<v Speaker 2>or the southern dottrial, and that could actually lead to

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<v Speaker 2>their extinction unless you can convince Colossal to pay for

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<v Speaker 2>the ongoing conservation of these de extinctive species and perpetuity,

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<v Speaker 2>which I very much doubt. But you've also got issues

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<v Speaker 2>of well, maybe this de extincted species is too successful

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<v Speaker 2>in the new ecosystem and becomes a pest. So then

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<v Speaker 2>how do you control this? Do you have to eradicate it,

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<v Speaker 2>do you have to a hunt it? Do you have

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<v Speaker 2>to keep it to low level? So you've got a

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<v Speaker 2>whole lot of ethical considerations of just releasing back into

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<v Speaker 2>the ecosystem.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but you're scientists. We're so preoccupied with whether or

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<v Speaker 4>not they could they just dont.

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<v Speaker 5>Thinkcause they should. Condos. Condos are on the verge of

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<v Speaker 5>extinction virst. You could not know if I was to

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<v Speaker 5>create a flock of condos on this island, you wouldn't

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<v Speaker 5>have anything to.

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<v Speaker 4>Say, Hold on, this is some species that was obliterated

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<v Speaker 4>by deforestation or the building of a dam, dinosaurs had

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<v Speaker 4>their shot, and nature selected them for extinction.

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<v Speaker 6>Well, the question is, how can you know anything about

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<v Speaker 6>an extinct ecosystem, and therefore, how could you ever assume

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<v Speaker 6>that you can control it.

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<v Speaker 3>You have plants in this building that are poisonous.

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<v Speaker 4>You pick them because they look good, But these are

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<v Speaker 4>aggressive living things that have no idea what centry they're in,

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<v Speaker 4>and they'll defend themselves violently if necessary.

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<v Speaker 5>Dinosaurs and man, two species separated by sixty five million

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<v Speaker 5>years of evolution, have just been suddenly throwing back into

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<v Speaker 5>the next together. How can we possibly have the slightest

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<v Speaker 5>idea of what to expect.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and we think about extinction in New Zealand. Like

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<v Speaker 1>I said, mankind is to blame for pretty much all

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<v Speaker 1>of it. Right, These ground dwelling, flightless birds who lived

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<v Speaker 1>millions of years being able to hop about with no predators,

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<v Speaker 1>that were doomed once man and the rats and the

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<v Speaker 1>invasive species came in and stepped foot on this land. So,

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<v Speaker 1>in a sense, do we have a responsibility to give

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<v Speaker 1>them another chance?

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<v Speaker 2>Wherever humans turn up in the world, extinctions always follow.

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<v Speaker 2>It's inevitable. And we know the extinctions in New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>occurred at a time of stable climate. I think we

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<v Speaker 2>have so many endangered species that are worthy of conservation

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<v Speaker 2>that are crying out for conservation money that de extincting

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<v Speaker 2>these animals is going to take money away from conserving them.

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<v Speaker 2>So by bringing them back, you're probably dooming others to extinction.

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<v Speaker 2>We should use the money to conserve what we've got left,

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<v Speaker 2>but also use the technology that has been developed by

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<v Speaker 2>companies like Colossal to conserve animals. So this enzyme that

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<v Speaker 2>acts like scissors crisper that I was talking about, is

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<v Speaker 2>you could use that to reintroduce lost genety variation back

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<v Speaker 2>into cacopo or tarka hate so that they have the

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<v Speaker 2>evolutionary potential to respond to ongoing climate change or diseases

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<v Speaker 2>like in Cacopo you've got aspergillosis, lung fungus, or crusty bump.

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<v Speaker 2>So we could use that technology to help what we've got,

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<v Speaker 2>rather than in my view as saging human guilt for

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<v Speaker 2>causing extinctions.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because I'm looking at this Colossal and I mean

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<v Speaker 1>I'm seeing the headlines. They did a wooly mammoth mouse

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<v Speaker 1>that had characteristics of a wooly mammoth they've brought back,

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<v Speaker 1>well brought back in quotation marks the dire wolf. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>is there really any point in bringing back these animals

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<v Speaker 1>rather than it's just like cool that we can.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think there's a point bringing them back. It's like, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>there are some arguments that these animals may have key

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<v Speaker 2>roles to play in the ecosystem, like the New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>forests haven't realized the mile has gone extinct. There are

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<v Speaker 2>certain pollination and seed dispersal mechanism and plants that relied

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<v Speaker 2>on birds that are no longer here. And if you

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<v Speaker 2>think of mammos, they trample Siberian created the mammos step

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<v Speaker 2>which helps sequesta carbon. Those are arguments to bring them back.

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<v Speaker 2>But on the flip side, how many hundreds of means

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<v Speaker 2>of dollars are going to have to spin to bring

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<v Speaker 2>back enough mammos to trample Siberia. It won't be five

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<v Speaker 2>hundred mamos, It's probably going to be thousands of mammos.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the money's better spent elsewhere. But trying to

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<v Speaker 2>get celebrities or philanthropists people with money to invest in conservation.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes conservation can be sexy, like tarka hae or carcapot.

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<v Speaker 2>But often the non sexy species are the ones that

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<v Speaker 2>are just as highly endangered, and trying to get money

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<v Speaker 2>is a lot easier if people are investing in something

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<v Speaker 2>akin to Jurassic.

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<v Speaker 1>Park and something cute and cuddly like a direwolf. What

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<v Speaker 1>is an unsexy species you think deserves a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>the spotlight.

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<v Speaker 2>In New Zealand, shags, the Targo shag, Fovo shag, endangered

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<v Speaker 2>shags have been persecuted for decades. If we think of

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<v Speaker 2>the spotted shag and hierarchy golf, it's genetically unique. It

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<v Speaker 2>used to be spread throughout hierarchy golf, that the harbors

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<v Speaker 2>all around Auckland, wy Cato and up into Northland, and

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<v Speaker 2>now it's on two or three islands in hierarchy golf

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<v Speaker 2>and highly endangered. And yet most people, unless you're a

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<v Speaker 2>person who likes birds, don't tend to like shags.

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<v Speaker 1>If we were to start having a conversation about reintroducing,

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<v Speaker 1>say the Whuyah, is it important to consult with Ewei.

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<v Speaker 2>Most definitely so. Mari are the indigenous people of New Zealand,

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<v Speaker 2>and under Article two of Tatarity, the Treaty of Whitangy

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<v Speaker 2>and the Mari version. Mari have rights over New Zealand

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<v Speaker 2>floor and fauna. And this is also the basis of

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<v Speaker 2>the Y two six two claim, so the White Tangy

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<v Speaker 2>two six to two claim which says that Mari have

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<v Speaker 2>intellectual property rights over New Zealand flaor and fauna. But

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<v Speaker 2>we need to engage with Mari any we partners, were

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<v Speaker 2>all all on this journey together, and all the engagement

0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:05.320
<v Speaker 2>that our lab has done up and down the motor

0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.400
<v Speaker 2>up and down the country. Is Mari a dead set

0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:12.200
<v Speaker 2>against the extinction for a lot of the reasons that

0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.439
<v Speaker 2>I've talked about, but also for others because there are

0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:22.600
<v Speaker 2>real fears for biopiracy or bioprospecting or these companies overseas.

0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:26.040
<v Speaker 2>Company is going to trademark these de extinct creatures. And

0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.760
<v Speaker 2>so if colossals say the extinct to the moa, who

0:13:28.760 --> 0:13:31.480
<v Speaker 2>owns the moa? Is it colossal who sunk hundreds of

0:13:31.480 --> 0:13:34.160
<v Speaker 2>means of dollars into it? Is it the people of

0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:39.200
<v Speaker 2>New Zealand? Is it the ewe who's bones the moa

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:41.760
<v Speaker 2>came from that got de extinct? And who's going to

0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:43.880
<v Speaker 2>pay for ongoing conservation.

0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:48.280
<v Speaker 6>Imagine a Jenga tower that's made out of millions of

0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.240
<v Speaker 6>blocks that are constantly moving and responding to each other,

0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:54.480
<v Speaker 6>and if you take it a big one, there will

0:13:54.520 --> 0:13:57.400
<v Speaker 6>not be time for the blocks to react to each other,

0:13:57.440 --> 0:13:59.400
<v Speaker 6>and the ecosystem make allapse. And so you want to

0:13:59.440 --> 0:14:02.160
<v Speaker 6>slot one real quick. And in that case, what you

0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:05.520
<v Speaker 6>could do is that you wouldn't have to grab the

0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:09.959
<v Speaker 6>existing animal that went extinct. You could create an animal

0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.440
<v Speaker 6>that serves that same niche that is close enough to

0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.800
<v Speaker 6>that blob that you can pop it in there and

0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.440
<v Speaker 6>then the ecosystem will recover. And that's why they're making

0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 6>the case that these wolves are a de extinction, because

0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:26.080
<v Speaker 6>theoretically they might be dire wolf shaped enough that they

0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.080
<v Speaker 6>would slot into the dire wolf shaped hall left behind

0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:32.560
<v Speaker 6>by the actual dire wolves that went extinct.

0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:37.320
<v Speaker 1>I guess, how can we make sure that this kind

0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:41.760
<v Speaker 1>of gene editing stays in the conservation realm and it

0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:45.400
<v Speaker 1>doesn't evolve into, you know, billionaires buying their kids half

0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:48.280
<v Speaker 1>dire wolf half Siberian tiger pups for their birthday.

0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:54.560
<v Speaker 2>I think there needs to be international laws and guidelines,

0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:58.000
<v Speaker 2>which becomes quite hard in New Zealand. We've had for

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.840
<v Speaker 2>many years the ban on genetic mortification, which the current

0:15:01.880 --> 0:15:05.960
<v Speaker 2>government has said they will consider lifting, and we need

0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.840
<v Speaker 2>a conversation as a country about how we move forward,

0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 2>how target to fenua, how Mari are involved with that,

0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.720
<v Speaker 2>because they're currently being shut out of that based on

0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.280
<v Speaker 2>the draft bill that's been released. But we need to

0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.600
<v Speaker 2>have these conversations. So New Zealand it will be very

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 2>easy to regulate how this is done and so you

0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.920
<v Speaker 2>can control how it's used, specially for conservation or for

0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:35.120
<v Speaker 2>pest eradication for example. The problem with the extinction is

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 2>in the eighteen hundreds, museums around the world wanted a

0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:41.240
<v Speaker 2>lot of stuff that was in New Zealand museum collection,

0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.400
<v Speaker 2>so there was a lot of trade. Is say a

0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>museum here, well, we want a Siberian tiger, or we

0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:48.520
<v Speaker 2>want an elephant, or we want a Falkland's wolf, we

0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:50.880
<v Speaker 2>will trade you for moa bones or other extinct New

0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.120
<v Speaker 2>Zealand animals, and so museums all around the world there

0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.680
<v Speaker 2>are the remains of New Zealand's extinct birds and there

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:02.360
<v Speaker 2>is nothing to stop coloss or any the Extinction company

0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:06.200
<v Speaker 2>from going to these overseas museums, getting the mole bones

0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:08.080
<v Speaker 2>and doing the extinction.

0:16:08.360 --> 0:16:10.120
<v Speaker 1>Is this all just a hop, skip and a jump

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:12.560
<v Speaker 1>away from bringing back all kinds of species? Like have

0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:17.040
<v Speaker 1>we not learned anything from Jurassic Park? Like how realistic

0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.080
<v Speaker 1>is it that Jurassic Park? I mean, if we're having

0:16:19.080 --> 0:16:23.280
<v Speaker 1>this conversation now, what about in two hundred years scholars

0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.400
<v Speaker 1>are listening to this podcast episode and thinking, God, I

0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.200
<v Speaker 1>wish we did something then, because this Tyrannosaurus Rex is

0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:31.880
<v Speaker 1>just ruining downtown Auckland.

0:16:32.160 --> 0:16:34.080
<v Speaker 2>I would like to think in two hundred years we

0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 2>will have learned the lessons of Jurassic Park. So we

0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:39.600
<v Speaker 2>can't bring dinosaurs back to life, let them run and

0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:43.120
<v Speaker 2>mark and eat lawyers like in the movie. Ancient DNA

0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:48.360
<v Speaker 2>only lasts about one million to two million years under

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 2>ideal permafrost conditions like in the Siberian permafrost, So we

0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 2>can't get back to dinosaurs. But I think there might

0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 2>be things in two hundred years of what Colossal and

0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:02.160
<v Speaker 2>other company might say is a de extinct creature. But

0:17:02.280 --> 0:17:05.840
<v Speaker 2>whether you would call it success, I'm not so convinced

0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:09.000
<v Speaker 2>by because there's still there's still a lot of hurdles.

0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.399
<v Speaker 2>So for example, colossal wants to bring back the thylacine

0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 2>or the Tasmanian tiger. Its closest relative is a small

0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:18.639
<v Speaker 2>little mussupial called the dun up, and there are teens

0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:22.000
<v Speaker 2>of means of years different from each other. You can't

0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.320
<v Speaker 2>put a thylacine fertilized egg to be brought up to

0:17:26.480 --> 0:17:28.720
<v Speaker 2>term in a dunn up. The dunn up would explode,

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.520
<v Speaker 2>So you have to develop artificial wounds. So there's a

0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:35.520
<v Speaker 2>whole lot of technological leaps and bounds that need to occur.

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:38.920
<v Speaker 2>But the proof and the potting will be if these

0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.399
<v Speaker 2>animals do get de extincted and they get released back

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:44.399
<v Speaker 2>into the wild and there are no unintended consequences, whether

0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.000
<v Speaker 2>they actually fill the role what used to be here

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:47.760
<v Speaker 2>that are not.

0:17:47.760 --> 0:17:51.360
<v Speaker 1>Convinced of Thanks for joining us, Nick, No worries, pleasure.

0:17:55.320 --> 0:17:58.439
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You

0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.679
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's story, Worries and extensive news

0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.240
<v Speaker 1>coverage at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page

0:18:06.280 --> 0:18:09.760
<v Speaker 1>is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is

0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:14.480
<v Speaker 1>also a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the

0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.960
<v Speaker 1>Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts,

0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.080
<v Speaker 1>and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.