1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Kyotra. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,119 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. A 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 1: new Jurassic World movie is right around the corner, taking 4 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: us back to a world where dinosaurs have been brought 5 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: back from the dead. But what has been a science 6 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: fiction concept for decades now might be closer to reality. 7 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:35,640 Speaker 1: Colossal Biosciences claims it successfully de extincted the dire wolf, 8 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 1: a species that has ceased to exist for around ten 9 00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: thousand years. The biotech company, which is backed by big 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,840 Speaker 1: name investors and celebrities alike, has a goal to bring 11 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: back the likes of the wooly mammoth, the Tasmanian tiger, 12 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: the Northern white rhino, and the dodo. But even if 13 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: it is successful, is it right? Should we let nature 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: take its course? And what would bringing back a specie 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,960 Speaker 1: that disappeared thousands of years ago do to our world 16 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: as we know it today? Today on the front Page, 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: University of Otago Department of Zoology Associate Professor Nick Rawleans 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:15,479 Speaker 1: is with us to discuss the ethical dilemma we now face. 19 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,800 Speaker 1: So Nick, first off, what is all of this de 20 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: extinction chat and where did this concept come from? 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 2: The extinction is the ability by scientists to bring animals 22 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 2: back from the dead, back from extinction, and it was 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 2: very much similar to like Jurassic Park. Originally people wanted 24 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 2: to do de extinction using cloning, so very much like 25 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 2: what happened with Dolly the Sheep. But to clone an 26 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 2: animal you need really high quality DNA. The problem with 27 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 2: a lot of extinct animals, the DNA is not high quality. 28 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: It's fragmented, it's chemically modified, it's been degraded. So it's 29 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 2: like if you took the Auckland Yellow Pages, which is 30 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: two volumes and very thick, and putted in a wood 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 2: fired pizza of an overnight, it comes out shards, crumbs, dust. 32 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:19,239 Speaker 2: So to the extinct animals, scientists are using genetic modification. 33 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:23,040 Speaker 2: They're using an enzyme called crisper, which acts like scissors 34 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: where you can chop out pieces of DNA and insert 35 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 2: new pieces of DNA. So with the die wolf, what 36 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 2: they do is they sequence the genome of the extinct 37 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: die wolf, compared it to a close relative, the gray wolf, 38 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 2: and worked out where all the differences occurred, and then 39 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 2: they chopped out the DNA out of the gray wolf 40 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 2: and inserted the DNA of the die wolf to create 41 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: a genetically modified hybrid. They argue, that's the thing called 42 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,440 Speaker 2: functional de extinction. Like the famous quote, if it walks 43 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: like a duck, talks like a duck, and quacks like 44 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: a duck, it's a. 45 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:58,720 Speaker 1: Duck, right. So that's why we're hearing about that company 46 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: at Colossal bio Tho Sciences. They're behind these efforts to 47 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: resurrect things like the wooly mammoth, the dough Dough, and 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: most recently, like you said, the rebirth of the dire wolf, 49 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,119 Speaker 1: the ones we saw running around in Game of Thrones. 50 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: But they're saying the world's first successfully de extincted animal, 51 00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: Is it really though? 52 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: Short answer, no, The technology they have developed is stunning 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: and will have very real world conservation benefits, but it's 54 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: not de extinction. This is a genetically modified designer gray wolf. 55 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 2: These die wolves are more close related to gray wolves 56 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 2: than they are to the extinct die wolves. And if 57 00:03:39,200 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 2: you think of all the individual DNA letters in a genome, 58 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 2: which are millions and millions of them, they've only done 59 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: twenty modifications to that genome. It's an infantistionally small amount 60 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: of modifications. But if we think of functional de extinction, 61 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: all they've got is something that looks like a die wolf. 62 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 2: They have no idea yet where that behaves like a 63 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 2: die wolf or if it talks like a die wolf, 64 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 2: can it actually fill the role of a die wolf 65 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 2: in the ecosystem, So it's not the extinction. 66 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 3: Peter Jackson from Lord of the Rings was actually one 67 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,119 Speaker 3: of our investors. Where I was sitting in Peter's house 68 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 3: with he and his partner friend, and I was like, 69 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 3: you know, I showed him the video of them howling. 70 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 3: He started tearing up. He goes, this is the first 71 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,000 Speaker 3: time I hear a darwolf or anyone's heard a darwolf 72 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,039 Speaker 3: in ten thousand year started well, he like he like 73 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 3: physically emotionally got chills and started crying. 74 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,360 Speaker 1: So the company's chief animal officer said, the aim isn't 75 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 1: for a zoo or amusement park Alah Island Nubla from 76 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: Jurassic Park, but to reintroduce lost species back into the 77 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,919 Speaker 1: habitats they once occupied. But if I remember from my 78 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: Jurassic Park studies correctly, didn't one of the plant dine 79 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: I get sick from eating something that it shouldn't. 80 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 2: Have, Yeah, it did. The triceratops got sick from eating 81 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,719 Speaker 2: a plant that hadn't been around when it lived teens 82 00:05:07,720 --> 00:05:10,479 Speaker 2: of millions of years ago. And this is one of 83 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 2: the things is if you're trying to say de extinct 84 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: the die wolf, it went extinct thirteen thousand years ago. 85 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 2: The ecosystem that it was part of no longer exists. 86 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: If you try to extinct de mooa New Zealand's only 87 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 2: got twenty five percent forest cover. At the time of 88 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 2: human arrival, it was eighty percent forest cover. And we've 89 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 2: lost entire ecosystems that have no analogue. So Central Otago, 90 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: for example, used to be covered in lancewood and kofi, 91 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: which is very weird to think of, but there's no 92 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 2: analog of that anywhere. So you haven't got the ecosystems 93 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 2: for these animals to go back into. A lot of 94 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 2: the ecosystems are being highly highly modified. They're full of predators. 95 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: But also if you are going to introduce animals into 96 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: an ecosystem, you need them to be genetically healthy, not 97 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:01,719 Speaker 2: in bread like a royal family. I think Tutan Karma 98 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 2: married his sister the Habsburgs out of Europe or even 99 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 2: Queen Victoria married her cousin. For a population to be 100 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,039 Speaker 2: genetically healthy, you need at least five hundred individuals, which 101 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 2: is a very tall order. 102 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: Indeed, are there ethical concerns though, around the idea of 103 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 1: just letting nature take its course. A lot of species 104 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: were driven to extinction by humans, especially in New Zealand, 105 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: and we'll touch on that in a moment. But what 106 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: about those animals that just lost the fight against the 107 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:37,119 Speaker 1: test of time. 108 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: I guess if the ecosystem was still around, there would 109 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,720 Speaker 2: be an argument for reintroducing these animals, and that and 110 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 2: wouldn't be the defining argument, would be a argument. But 111 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: if you're going to introduce these animals, you've got to 112 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 2: think about will they be able to cope with the 113 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 2: new world that they find themselves in. They're going to 114 00:06:55,520 --> 00:06:58,359 Speaker 2: require a whole lot of conservation for them to survive 115 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 2: in this new ecosystem. Who's going to pay for all 116 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 2: that conservation, Who's going to pay for all that predator control? 117 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 2: And in an age of stretch budgets, where is that 118 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 2: money going to come from? So you've got this real 119 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 2: danger of what you call opportunity costs. So if you're 120 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,400 Speaker 2: trying to conserve a de extincted moa, for example, then 121 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: that's probably going to pull funding away from other endangered 122 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: species that are worthy of conservation, like takahe or carcapo 123 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: or the southern dottrial, and that could actually lead to 124 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 2: their extinction unless you can convince Colossal to pay for 125 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 2: the ongoing conservation of these de extinctive species and perpetuity, 126 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 2: which I very much doubt. But you've also got issues 127 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 2: of well, maybe this de extincted species is too successful 128 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 2: in the new ecosystem and becomes a pest. So then 129 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: how do you control this? Do you have to eradicate it, 130 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 2: do you have to a hunt it? Do you have 131 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 2: to keep it to low level? So you've got a 132 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 2: whole lot of ethical considerations of just releasing back into 133 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: the ecosystem. 134 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, but you're scientists. We're so preoccupied with whether or 135 00:07:57,480 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 4: not they could they just dont. 136 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 5: Thinkcause they should. Condos. Condos are on the verge of 137 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 5: extinction virst. You could not know if I was to 138 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 5: create a flock of condos on this island, you wouldn't 139 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 5: have anything to. 140 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 4: Say, Hold on, this is some species that was obliterated 141 00:08:12,720 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 4: by deforestation or the building of a dam, dinosaurs had 142 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 4: their shot, and nature selected them for extinction. 143 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 6: Well, the question is, how can you know anything about 144 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 6: an extinct ecosystem, and therefore, how could you ever assume 145 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 6: that you can control it. 146 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 3: You have plants in this building that are poisonous. 147 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 4: You pick them because they look good, But these are 148 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 4: aggressive living things that have no idea what centry they're in, 149 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,239 Speaker 4: and they'll defend themselves violently if necessary. 150 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 5: Dinosaurs and man, two species separated by sixty five million 151 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 5: years of evolution, have just been suddenly throwing back into 152 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,119 Speaker 5: the next together. How can we possibly have the slightest 153 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 5: idea of what to expect. 154 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we think about extinction in New Zealand. Like 155 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:00,640 Speaker 1: I said, mankind is to blame for pretty much all 156 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: of it. Right, These ground dwelling, flightless birds who lived 157 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: millions of years being able to hop about with no predators, 158 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,280 Speaker 1: that were doomed once man and the rats and the 159 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,800 Speaker 1: invasive species came in and stepped foot on this land. So, 160 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 1: in a sense, do we have a responsibility to give 161 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: them another chance? 162 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: Wherever humans turn up in the world, extinctions always follow. 163 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,480 Speaker 2: It's inevitable. And we know the extinctions in New Zealand 164 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 2: occurred at a time of stable climate. I think we 165 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 2: have so many endangered species that are worthy of conservation 166 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: that are crying out for conservation money that de extincting 167 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: these animals is going to take money away from conserving them. 168 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:43,960 Speaker 2: So by bringing them back, you're probably dooming others to extinction. 169 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 2: We should use the money to conserve what we've got left, 170 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 2: but also use the technology that has been developed by 171 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 2: companies like Colossal to conserve animals. So this enzyme that 172 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 2: acts like scissors crisper that I was talking about, is 173 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 2: you could use that to reintroduce lost genety variation back 174 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: into cacopo or tarka hate so that they have the 175 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: evolutionary potential to respond to ongoing climate change or diseases 176 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 2: like in Cacopo you've got aspergillosis, lung fungus, or crusty bump. 177 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 2: So we could use that technology to help what we've got, 178 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 2: rather than in my view as saging human guilt for 179 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:23,160 Speaker 2: causing extinctions. 180 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, because I'm looking at this Colossal and I mean 181 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: I'm seeing the headlines. They did a wooly mammoth mouse 182 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 1: that had characteristics of a wooly mammoth they've brought back, 183 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,719 Speaker 1: well brought back in quotation marks the dire wolf. I mean, 184 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: is there really any point in bringing back these animals 185 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 1: rather than it's just like cool that we can. 186 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 2: I don't think there's a point bringing them back. It's like, yes, 187 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:50,199 Speaker 2: there are some arguments that these animals may have key 188 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 2: roles to play in the ecosystem, like the New Zealand 189 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: forests haven't realized the mile has gone extinct. There are 190 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 2: certain pollination and seed dispersal mechanism and plants that relied 191 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 2: on birds that are no longer here. And if you 192 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 2: think of mammos, they trample Siberian created the mammos step 193 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 2: which helps sequesta carbon. Those are arguments to bring them back. 194 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: But on the flip side, how many hundreds of means 195 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:16,680 Speaker 2: of dollars are going to have to spin to bring 196 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: back enough mammos to trample Siberia. It won't be five 197 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 2: hundred mamos, It's probably going to be thousands of mammos. 198 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 2: I think the money's better spent elsewhere. But trying to 199 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 2: get celebrities or philanthropists people with money to invest in conservation. 200 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,199 Speaker 2: Sometimes conservation can be sexy, like tarka hae or carcapot. 201 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: But often the non sexy species are the ones that 202 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 2: are just as highly endangered, and trying to get money 203 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: is a lot easier if people are investing in something 204 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 2: akin to Jurassic. 205 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: Park and something cute and cuddly like a direwolf. What 206 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: is an unsexy species you think deserves a bit of 207 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: the spotlight. 208 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,679 Speaker 2: In New Zealand, shags, the Targo shag, Fovo shag, endangered 209 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: shags have been persecuted for decades. If we think of 210 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:06,840 Speaker 2: the spotted shag and hierarchy golf, it's genetically unique. It 211 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: used to be spread throughout hierarchy golf, that the harbors 212 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 2: all around Auckland, wy Cato and up into Northland, and 213 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 2: now it's on two or three islands in hierarchy golf 214 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 2: and highly endangered. And yet most people, unless you're a 215 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 2: person who likes birds, don't tend to like shags. 216 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: If we were to start having a conversation about reintroducing, 217 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: say the Whuyah, is it important to consult with Ewei. 218 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 2: Most definitely so. Mari are the indigenous people of New Zealand, 219 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,319 Speaker 2: and under Article two of Tatarity, the Treaty of Whitangy 220 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 2: and the Mari version. Mari have rights over New Zealand 221 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 2: floor and fauna. And this is also the basis of 222 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 2: the Y two six two claim, so the White Tangy 223 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 2: two six to two claim which says that Mari have 224 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: intellectual property rights over New Zealand flaor and fauna. But 225 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 2: we need to engage with Mari any we partners, were 226 00:12:59,880 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 2: all all on this journey together, and all the engagement 227 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 2: that our lab has done up and down the motor 228 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,400 Speaker 2: up and down the country. Is Mari a dead set 229 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 2: against the extinction for a lot of the reasons that 230 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 2: I've talked about, but also for others because there are 231 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:22,600 Speaker 2: real fears for biopiracy or bioprospecting or these companies overseas. 232 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: Company is going to trademark these de extinct creatures. And 233 00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 2: so if colossals say the extinct to the moa, who 234 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: owns the moa? Is it colossal who sunk hundreds of 235 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 2: means of dollars into it? Is it the people of 236 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:39,200 Speaker 2: New Zealand? Is it the ewe who's bones the moa 237 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 2: came from that got de extinct? And who's going to 238 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 2: pay for ongoing conservation. 239 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 6: Imagine a Jenga tower that's made out of millions of 240 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 6: blocks that are constantly moving and responding to each other, 241 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 6: and if you take it a big one, there will 242 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 6: not be time for the blocks to react to each other, 243 00:13:57,440 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 6: and the ecosystem make allapse. And so you want to 244 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 6: slot one real quick. And in that case, what you 245 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 6: could do is that you wouldn't have to grab the 246 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 6: existing animal that went extinct. You could create an animal 247 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 6: that serves that same niche that is close enough to 248 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 6: that blob that you can pop it in there and 249 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,440 Speaker 6: then the ecosystem will recover. And that's why they're making 250 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 6: the case that these wolves are a de extinction, because 251 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 6: theoretically they might be dire wolf shaped enough that they 252 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 6: would slot into the dire wolf shaped hall left behind 253 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 6: by the actual dire wolves that went extinct. 254 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 1: I guess, how can we make sure that this kind 255 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: of gene editing stays in the conservation realm and it 256 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: doesn't evolve into, you know, billionaires buying their kids half 257 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: dire wolf half Siberian tiger pups for their birthday. 258 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 2: I think there needs to be international laws and guidelines, 259 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: which becomes quite hard in New Zealand. We've had for 260 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: many years the ban on genetic mortification, which the current 261 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: government has said they will consider lifting, and we need 262 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 2: a conversation as a country about how we move forward, 263 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 2: how target to fenua, how Mari are involved with that, 264 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: because they're currently being shut out of that based on 265 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 2: the draft bill that's been released. But we need to 266 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 2: have these conversations. So New Zealand it will be very 267 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 2: easy to regulate how this is done and so you 268 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: can control how it's used, specially for conservation or for 269 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 2: pest eradication for example. The problem with the extinction is 270 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 2: in the eighteen hundreds, museums around the world wanted a 271 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 2: lot of stuff that was in New Zealand museum collection, 272 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 2: so there was a lot of trade. Is say a 273 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 2: museum here, well, we want a Siberian tiger, or we 274 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 2: want an elephant, or we want a Falkland's wolf, we 275 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: will trade you for moa bones or other extinct New 276 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: Zealand animals, and so museums all around the world there 277 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: are the remains of New Zealand's extinct birds and there 278 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: is nothing to stop coloss or any the Extinction company 279 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 2: from going to these overseas museums, getting the mole bones 280 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 2: and doing the extinction. 281 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: Is this all just a hop, skip and a jump 282 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,560 Speaker 1: away from bringing back all kinds of species? Like have 283 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: we not learned anything from Jurassic Park? Like how realistic 284 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: is it that Jurassic Park? I mean, if we're having 285 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: this conversation now, what about in two hundred years scholars 286 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: are listening to this podcast episode and thinking, God, I 287 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: wish we did something then, because this Tyrannosaurus Rex is 288 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: just ruining downtown Auckland. 289 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: I would like to think in two hundred years we 290 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: will have learned the lessons of Jurassic Park. So we 291 00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: can't bring dinosaurs back to life, let them run and 292 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: mark and eat lawyers like in the movie. Ancient DNA 293 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: only lasts about one million to two million years under 294 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 2: ideal permafrost conditions like in the Siberian permafrost, So we 295 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 2: can't get back to dinosaurs. But I think there might 296 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: be things in two hundred years of what Colossal and 297 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,160 Speaker 2: other company might say is a de extinct creature. But 298 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 2: whether you would call it success, I'm not so convinced 299 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 2: by because there's still there's still a lot of hurdles. 300 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 2: So for example, colossal wants to bring back the thylacine 301 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: or the Tasmanian tiger. Its closest relative is a small 302 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,639 Speaker 2: little mussupial called the dun up, and there are teens 303 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 2: of means of years different from each other. You can't 304 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: put a thylacine fertilized egg to be brought up to 305 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: term in a dunn up. The dunn up would explode, 306 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 2: So you have to develop artificial wounds. So there's a 307 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: whole lot of technological leaps and bounds that need to occur. 308 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 2: But the proof and the potting will be if these 309 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 2: animals do get de extincted and they get released back 310 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 2: into the wild and there are no unintended consequences, whether 311 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,000 Speaker 2: they actually fill the role what used to be here 312 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 2: that are not. 313 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: Convinced of Thanks for joining us, Nick, No worries, pleasure. 314 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 315 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: can read more about today's story, Worries and extensive news 316 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: coverage at enzedherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page 317 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 1: is produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is 318 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: also a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the 319 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,960 Speaker 1: Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, 320 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 1: and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.