1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:08,559 Speaker 1: Kyoda. I'm Georgina Campbell in for Chelsea Daniels and this 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,719 Speaker 1: is the Front Page, a daily podcast presented by the 3 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:20,439 Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. The government has announced a record thirty 4 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: two point nine billion dollar investment in New Zealand's transport 5 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: network over the next three years through the National Land 6 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,599 Speaker 1: Transport Program. The big winner is new roads and the 7 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:38,520 Speaker 1: big loser is walking in cycling improvements. So what does 8 00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: this mean for congestion and emissions in our biggest cities 9 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: and will a new national infrastructure pipeline prevent these roads 10 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: being scuppered by future governments. Today on the Front Page 11 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: we talk to Auckland University Senior lecturer in Urban Planning, 12 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: Tim Welch to bring us up to speed. Tim, can 13 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: you please run us through what the government has announced 14 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 1: this week. 15 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 2: Sure. This is the National Land Transportation Program or in LTP, 16 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: and it's a program that's announced every three years. It 17 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: can be six years by legislation, but traditionally our government 18 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 2: does this every three years and it's really forms a 19 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,479 Speaker 2: budget for what we expect to spend over the next 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,679 Speaker 2: three years on anything from roads to public transport to 21 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 2: walking and cycling, so anything that moves over land falls 22 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:43,679 Speaker 2: within this purview, and the government has allocated about thirty 23 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 2: two point nine billion dollars over the next three years 24 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: for this type of transportation. 25 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: So what is in that thirty two point nine billion dollars. 26 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: Who are the winners and who are the losers? 27 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if we break it down, the biggest 28 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: amount of money that we're spending is going to roads, 29 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: and a lot of that is either what Simeon Brown 30 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: is calling pothole prevention. We used to call it just 31 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: road maintenance. A huge chunk of the funding goes there, 32 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 2: and out of that also is nearly eight billion dollars 33 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 2: for an old program that keeps kind of coming back 34 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: to life every few decades, which is the Roads of 35 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: National Significance, which is really a funding package to try 36 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 2: to bring more highways across the nation. There are some 37 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 2: funds allocated to things that aren't roads, of course, there's 38 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 2: six point eight billion dollars roughly going to public transportation, 39 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 2: walking and cycling. But what this budget does not do, 40 00:02:49,040 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 2: or this plan doesn't do, is bring us anything new 41 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 2: really in anything, especially in public transport. Though really what 42 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 2: this does is kind of fund existing programs and make 43 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 2: sure that our existing public transport, whether it's rail or bus, 44 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: continues to operate from a walking and cycling perspective. It's 45 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: only going to fund projects that are already in the pipeline, 46 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 2: and specifically, which is really unusual for something like the NLTP, 47 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 2: it states that there won't be any more cycling or 48 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: walking projects. And this is really unusual because even national 49 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 2: governments prior to this one have allocated funding for more 50 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: walking and cycling and have boosted public transport to some 51 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 2: degree as well. 52 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: Getting transport back to basics is one of the key 53 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 3: reasons why Kiwi's voted for this government. They're sick of 54 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 3: the potholes plaguing our roads. They'll fed up with the 55 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 3: phantom projects that cost a fortune but never got off 56 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 3: the ground. And they're tied of the speed bumps, planter 57 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: boxes and cycleways that made going about their day to 58 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 3: day lives all the more difficult. 59 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 1: So roads are clearly the big winner in your view. 60 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: Do you think the government has got that balance right? 61 00:04:10,120 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 2: This isn't a balance that I mean we expected with 62 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 2: this new government. They kind of made it clear that 63 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: roads would be a priority, so it's not unexpected, but 64 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: the level to which roads are funded and the expense 65 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: of other modes is a bit of a surprise. It 66 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 2: kind of goes contrary to what most other countries are doing. 67 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 2: A lot of countries and cities are really focused on 68 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,479 Speaker 2: building up alternatives to driving, knowing that building one more 69 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: road or one more highway isn't going to relieve congestion. 70 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 2: It's only going to increase demand for more driving over 71 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,279 Speaker 2: the years and lead to further congestion. So really the 72 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: flow of budgeting and transportation across the globe has been 73 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 2: to balance out other public transport, walking, cycling, with road infrastructure. 74 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 2: This budget looks like something that we would have built 75 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 2: in or we would have budgeted for in the nineteen 76 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: sixties nineteen fifties. 77 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,479 Speaker 1: Does that concern you the given climate change? 78 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, I certainly. Anytime we're looking at more roads, and 79 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 2: like I said, we're looking at more driving as a result, 80 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 2: and that clearly leads to higher levels of emissions. It's 81 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 2: this idea of induced demands. So when we add more 82 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: road space, it makes a trip seem cheaper in terms 83 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: of your time use, so it encourages more people to 84 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 2: do it more often, and as a result, we have 85 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: more driving, more congestion, and these effects happen rather quickly. 86 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: It's not like a ten to twenty year time horizon. 87 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: When this happens, it happens within months to years of 88 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: the construction finishing. And so certainly we'll have more cars 89 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: on the road, more traffic, and more pollution, especially as 90 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: the previously ended its focus on encouraging more electric vehicles, 91 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: so we'll have more vehicles consuming fossil fuels, producing emissions 92 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 2: and sitting in traffic for the foreseeable future of the 93 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: next decade at least. 94 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: What did you make of Transport Minister Samine Brown's comments 95 00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: that he thinks Kiwi's are sick and tired of the 96 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: amount of money going into things like psychle ways for example. 97 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 2: This really reflects something we often call a windshield bias, 98 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: and so what it really is telling him us is 99 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 2: that when you typically conduct all your travel driving and 100 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 2: looking through a windshield, you tend to see everything from 101 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 2: the perspective of a driver. And the another old saying 102 00:06:49,040 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 2: is you know, if you as someone who has a hammer, 103 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 2: everything looks like a nail. So the perspective is that 104 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 2: you know if you see if you're driving and you 105 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 2: see people on a bike. You can't really relate to 106 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: them very well. There's no empathy for that, and everything's 107 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: kind of framed in the idea that nobody else wants 108 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: this infrastructure because it's just slowing everyone else down. The 109 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: reality is that walking and cycling are hugely important to 110 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: our cities. Without that infrastructure, our cities would be at 111 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: a complete standstill. In Auckland alone are very limited cycle 112 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 2: ways and shared paths carry over three million cycle trips 113 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 2: a year, and if those were all converted to cars, 114 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: this is our roads just wouldn't move at all. 115 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:42,560 Speaker 1: And it's quite a political statement. Simeon Brown wouldn't be 116 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: saying that unless he thought people would like to hear that. 117 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: So how do you change that perspective or encourage more 118 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: people into active modes of transport or is driving just 119 00:07:57,400 --> 00:07:58,239 Speaker 1: what people want? 120 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: It's a really difficult position. And so whenever something like 121 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: walking in cycling or public transport is put into the 122 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 2: frame of a culture war, it makes it really difficult 123 00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:14,520 Speaker 2: to make progress on these really important modes. And it's 124 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,520 Speaker 2: easy for politicians to say that people don't want it 125 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 2: and to build roads because cutting ribbons is on roads 126 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 2: or announcing that new roads will be built, or that 127 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 2: you'll spend less time in your car is always something 128 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 2: that gets headlines and it provides a few votes, But 129 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:36,439 Speaker 2: the reality is that we need these other modes. They're 130 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: just part of functioning as a city. And it's unfortunate 131 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: that it's kind of become part of political fodder that 132 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: we would cut cycle ways and walking cycling and even 133 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 2: limit our funding on public transport, when in reality they 134 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 2: do a lot of the heavy lifting to keep our 135 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 2: cities moving and they're really a critical component. So the 136 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 2: rhetoric is really unfortunate. It'd be good to go back 137 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: to a time when public transport and walking cycling investments 138 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,719 Speaker 2: didn't make the news. They just were quietly funded and 139 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 2: were an important part of our total transportation package. 140 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: You have written about how all these billions of dollars 141 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: that the government has gone to spend in the next 142 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 1: three years won't actually just buy and kind of measure 143 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: up new highways. Can you elaborate on that. 144 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, we were allocating seven billion dollars to these roads 145 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 2: of national significance and another billion dollars in contingency funding 146 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 2: to try to speed up that planning process. But that 147 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 2: eight billion dollars really is just going to lay the 148 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 2: initial groundwork for building these roads, so there's a lot 149 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: of work that had to go into it, including securing 150 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: routes and right away purchasing property, doing planning, writing business cases. 151 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 2: So most of this money is really just going to 152 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,839 Speaker 2: go to those stages, and a lot of that will 153 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: go into the pockets of consulting firms that do this 154 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 2: on a regular basis. And what people won't see drivers 155 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 2: or cyclists or people on public transport, will be any 156 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 2: progress towards relieving congestion. And many of the projects aren't 157 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 2: even slated to begin construction until well after this plan 158 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 2: ends in t and twenty seven, some of them not 159 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: even until twenty twenty nine at the earliest, so we 160 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: won't see a significant movement here in building roads, but 161 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 2: we will see a significant spend towards planning these roads. 162 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 2: So we're spending a lot of money that could be 163 00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 2: used for other things with immediate impact going towards the 164 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 2: idea of roads that likely won't even be built in 165 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 2: the long run anyway. 166 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 4: Labour's transport spokesperson, tonguing You to Kenny, is unimpressed the. 167 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 5: Increased levels of driver's license fees at are coming in 168 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 5: the driver's text that will kick in from the start 169 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 5: of next year. The planned increases to fuel excise from 170 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 5: twenty twenty seven. This is a government that is simply 171 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 5: hypocritical and lumping additional costs onto road users. 172 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 4: Julie and Genter from the Greens says local roads account 173 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 4: for most trips and the balance of the funding is 174 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 4: all wrong. 175 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: New Zealand does have a bit of a track record 176 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: of infrastructure projects being scuppered by future governments. For example, 177 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: this government has axed Auckland light rail and let's get 178 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: Wellington moving. Infrastructure Minister Chris Bishop says workers underway to 179 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: develop this thirty year national Infrastructure pipeline in the hope 180 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 1: that political consensus can be built on an enduring list 181 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: of priorities. Does that mean that these new state highways 182 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: that the government has promised, you know as sort of 183 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: future proof, and that they can't just be scuppered by 184 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: you know, maybe a more leaf leaning future government. 185 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: Well, it's an interesting idea, but there's nothing really that 186 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 2: locks us into these roads to be built, you know 187 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: the future. You know, National actually National Infrastructure Agency is 188 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: supposed to make it easier to start to build facilities 189 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: like roads and attract private investment. But really there's no 190 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 2: evidence that a future government wouldn't be able to change that, 191 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 2: and it's just not the way funding works. We could 192 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: find somebody that will privately fund an entire road and 193 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 2: then build it, but that's that's typically not the case. 194 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: There's usually a high amount of public funding that goes 195 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 2: into that. And anytime there's public funding, there's the opportunity 196 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,440 Speaker 2: for the government to change its plans. And we've seen 197 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: with things like Let's get Moving, Wellington Moving and the 198 00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:18,040 Speaker 2: Auckland light Rail, that spending can occur. We can start 199 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: to plan and we can start to build a little bit, 200 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,760 Speaker 2: and political winds do change and projects still come to 201 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,559 Speaker 2: an end. So there's nothing about these new projects or 202 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:36,720 Speaker 2: Bishop's agency that would safeguard these road projects from never 203 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 2: being canceled. 204 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: Green Party Transport spokeswoman Julian Gender has also drawn attention 205 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: to another problem that these roads could run into, and 206 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: that's a graph in this recent National Land Transport Plan 207 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: which shows n zta's revenue mainly from fuel taxes and 208 00:13:56,240 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: road user charges, basically that it will fall slate short 209 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: of its estimated expenditure. So does the government have a 210 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: massive hole in its transport plane. 211 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, by current calculations, by twenty thirty, we're looking about 212 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: a six billion dollars shortfall because of this massive spind 213 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 2: up for these additional roads. And the issue really is 214 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 2: that we have we rely on funding for our transportation 215 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: system from fuel tax is one of the primary sources 216 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: of revenue, but the amount that we are receiving in 217 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: that revenue has been falling over the years because people 218 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: have more efficient vehicles, so they're using less fuel for 219 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: every trip they take. There's the introduction, of course of 220 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 2: electric vehicles, which have reduced demand, and the fact that 221 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: we haven't increased the fuel tax in several years and 222 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: four years since twenty twenty. At the same time we've 223 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: seen a huge ramp up of inflation. So you know 224 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 2: what we pay now about seventy cents per liter from 225 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty on, should have been raised to about eighty 226 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 2: six eighty seven cents now if we wanted to keep 227 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 2: up with the level of revenue. So we've lost about 228 00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 2: thirteen and a half cents in value for every leader 229 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: of fuel that we sell, and that has a huge 230 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 2: impact on what we can spend and what we plan 231 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: to take on in the future, and as a result, 232 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 2: we're seeing these huge deficits coming into the future. And 233 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: the only way that we're going to be able to 234 00:15:34,680 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: plug that hole is by increasing our road user charges 235 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 2: or significantly increasing fuel tax, both of which are pretty 236 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:45,560 Speaker 2: politically unfriendly. 237 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 3: Transport Texas by stealth coming road tolls, vehicle licensing, road 238 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 3: user charges are all set to increase over the next 239 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 3: three years. 240 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 6: The first thing we did was we stopped the petrol 241 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 6: tech increases which the last government had been planning. We said, no, 242 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 6: that's not right when New Zealanders have been struggling through 243 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 6: a cost of living crisis, and we've postponed those out 244 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 6: to twenty twenty seven. So that's a really significant backdrop. 245 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 4: But what we've also. 246 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,360 Speaker 6: Heard from New Zealanders loud and clear is they want 247 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 6: proper highways, they want proper public transport projects, and they 248 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 6: recognize that in some cases paying a small toll will 249 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 6: mean that happens a lot quicker. 250 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: And I guess the government could help plug that with 251 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: Crown funding, but the budgets are looking pretty tight for 252 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: the next few years, right there's not a lot of 253 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: room to move. 254 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: Well. Unfortunately, well there is a huge budget crunch. That's 255 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 2: essentially what the plan is telling us now is that 256 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 2: we are going to plug this hole with crown funding. 257 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 2: Some of it will be Crown grants, so money. The 258 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 2: government gives about three billion there and then another three 259 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 2: billion in Crown loans. So just if we go back 260 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 2: even five six years ago, our transport plans didn't require much, 261 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 2: if any, Crown funding. It was all supposed to be 262 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 2: essentially self funded through the fuel tax and through road 263 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 2: user charges and a few other sources of revenue. But 264 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: now if we look at the budget coming forward again, 265 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: it was like almost six billion dollars in Crown funding. 266 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: So we're actually relying more and more on rates pain 267 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,359 Speaker 2: than we were in the past ever in the past. 268 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 2: So not people just driving, but people who are pain 269 00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 2: rates are now subsidizing our roads to a massive degree. 270 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: And finally, tim how do you think the government will 271 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,320 Speaker 1: measure the success of its plan. 272 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 2: It's a good question. We don't have a lot of 273 00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 2: information on that yet. The idea, the objective of these 274 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 2: plans for the last couple iterations has been reducing congestion. 275 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 2: Unfortun only none of the investments really are aimed at 276 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: doing that and the idea is there, but the reality 277 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 2: of things I conduce demand, which we've known about for 278 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 2: seventy years or more, really mute any kind of impact 279 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 2: we'd have on congestion from these roads. So it's really 280 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 2: hard to say what the measure of success would be 281 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 2: other than having a plan, you know, something on paper 282 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,879 Speaker 2: that says these roads will be built. That's about all 283 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,959 Speaker 2: we can expect at this point and maintaining the status 284 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 2: quo for walking and cycling in public transport. But you know, 285 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 2: for looking at this from a business angle, it's hard 286 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 2: to see any KPIs that would really come out of 287 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: this investment that would that would be a surefire way 288 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: to say it's a success or not. 289 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:54,119 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us, Tim, that's set for 290 00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: this episode of The Front Page. You can read more 291 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: about today's stories and extincts of news coverage at inzipherld 292 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: dot co dot inzet. The Front Page is produced by 293 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:10,640 Speaker 1: Ethan Sills. Dan Goodwin is the sound engineer. I'm Georgina Campbell. 294 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,120 Speaker 1: Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever it 295 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another 296 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:20,959 Speaker 1: look behind the headlines.