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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast

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Speaker 1: from News Talks at Me.

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Speaker 2: For the first time ever, Lucy Lawless has made the

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Speaker 2: shift from actor to director in a new documentary about

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Speaker 2: another key we icon of the big screen, Margaret Moth.

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Speaker 2: Margaret was a character, to say the least, a bit

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Speaker 2: of an unconventional war correspondent who thrived in her decades

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Speaker 2: filming in war zones around the world. The documentary is

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Speaker 2: called Never look Away, For Better or for Worse.

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Speaker 3: War is an amazing field.

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Speaker 2: But didn't seem to feel the same way.

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Speaker 3: She was the first camera woman for television New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: She looked so rock and roll twenty four to seven.

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Speaker 3: A female cameraman in a male dominated world. That definitely

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Speaker 3: gave her a charge. Marvin never made anything about being

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Speaker 3: a female. She just did it. Look at me, here's

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Speaker 3: the camera. This is what I do.

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Speaker 2: Direct de Lucy Lawless is with us this morning. Killed

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Speaker 2: a good morning Jack. I know this is a question

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Speaker 2: that you answer over the course of the documentary, but

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping you can give us a bit of a snapshot.

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Speaker 2: Who is Margaret Moth.

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Speaker 3: Margaret Moth was a kick ass woman from New Zealand

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Speaker 3: who ran off and became a CNN camera person at

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Speaker 3: the at the start of twenty four to seven news

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Speaker 3: and found her place in the world. Unfortunately, the world

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Speaker 3: that she chose meant that she was on the receiving

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Speaker 3: end of a sniper's bullet in Sarajevo and got her

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Speaker 3: face blown off and then things get really crazy. So

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Speaker 3: she did not die.

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Speaker 2: No, she didn't die. And I mean she is I mean,

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Speaker 2: she's someone I can say that's working in the news business.

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Speaker 2: You know, she is a legend of an absolute bona fide,

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Speaker 2: top of the pyramid legend in New Zealand news. But

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Speaker 2: obviously you have worked over the years in different parts

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Speaker 2: of television, so how did you come across her story?

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Speaker 3: While I was approached by her best friend, Joe Duran,

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Speaker 3: who's in the film, and he said, hey, do you

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Speaker 3: want to make a film about my friend Margaret Moth?

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Speaker 3: And I was so swept up in this crazy sensation

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Speaker 3: of this woman who many years before in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 3: two when she was shot by that bullet in sarajeva

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Speaker 3: The news report was so captivating that everything that I

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Speaker 3: know about Margaret Moth had to have happened in that

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Speaker 3: report in that week when they were not sure whether

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Speaker 3: she was going to survive or not. I hadn't thought

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Speaker 3: about her since, but in that moment that I received

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Speaker 3: the email, I wrote back immediately, I mean within ninety seconds,

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Speaker 3: making all these crazy promises which I had no business doing.

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Speaker 3: So I will find the money, I will find the producers.

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Speaker 3: Story has to be told. And I didn't realize that

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Speaker 3: what I was now participating in was actually bringing Margaret

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Speaker 3: home in a way, because she had left New Zealand

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Speaker 3: under a cloud of mystery, which is really really fascinating,

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Speaker 3: but I couldn't prove it, so I couldn't I couldn't

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Speaker 3: use it in the documentary. But she never came back

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Speaker 3: for many many years, till her mother was dying. Only

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Speaker 3: once did she come back. Yeah, so I wanted to

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Speaker 3: bring her home. I think that's New Zealanders know about her.

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Speaker 2: I think it's such a nice way to think about it,

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Speaker 2: bringing her home, because she was she was someone who

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Speaker 2: she started her career in New Zealand working in TV news,

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Speaker 2: but then kind of spread her wings and was clearly

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Speaker 2: she was It was almost like, I mean, she's obviously

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Speaker 2: a complex person It's almost like she was running from

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Speaker 2: something a because she she sort of went to the

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Speaker 2: most opposite to New Zealand like environments you could possibly

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Speaker 2: imagine that we're talking about, yes, bag Dad Aganista Sutover

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Speaker 2: during the siege, Like, these places are about as far

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Speaker 2: from New Zealand as you can get in every sense,

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Speaker 2: don't you think.

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Speaker 3: Right. But in between there was eight or nine years

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Speaker 3: of lying fallow in Texas, of all places, where she

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Speaker 3: was basically taking drugs, hitting the punk scene and working

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Speaker 3: her way through the news hierarchy there, you know, just

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Speaker 3: trying to get a gig. She worked in a hospital,

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Speaker 3: she did all these other jobs. She painted houses, did

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Speaker 3: anything to keep alive before we found out that she

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Speaker 3: was working for CNN.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She She had this amazing, amazing line

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Speaker 2: that you shared in the film, in which she said

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Speaker 2: that she always thought it was funny that people spend

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Speaker 2: their lives saving for retirement, and she knew that she

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Speaker 2: would never be financially wealthy in retirement, but that she

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Speaker 2: would feel rich because of her experiences.

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Speaker 3: Yes, she was hungry for experience and sensation. I think, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: something in her childhood made her and you know what

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Speaker 3: I felt that too, and maybe a lot of New Zealanders.

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Speaker 3: Do you know, we come from a little, tiny, safe country,

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Speaker 3: and she's always proud of New Zealand. At the bottom

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Speaker 3: of the world, your eyes are big and your ears

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Speaker 3: are open for everything and the rest of the world.

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Speaker 3: You know, you're hungry to discover what else lies out there.

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Speaker 3: That's why we go on this oe business traditionally, that's

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Speaker 3: part of being a key. We've been raised in this

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Speaker 3: lovely little jewel of the land at the bottom of

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Speaker 3: the world.

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Speaker 2: So do you think that was the driving ambition for Margaret,

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Speaker 2: that she just wanted to have lots of experiences and

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Speaker 2: that's what ultimately led her to being in war zones?

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Speaker 2: Or do you think there was you know, that there

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Speaker 2: were other dimensions to you know, to whatever it was

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Speaker 2: that led her to those parts of the world.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, what I'm going to say my inference is

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Speaker 3: not what she would say, yeah, you know, because she

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Speaker 3: would just say she was hungry for experience. She wanted

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Speaker 3: to she had this insatiable curiosity, and that's true, that

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Speaker 3: seems to be true. But I do think that she

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Speaker 3: had experienced some amount of trauma in her childhood, that

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Speaker 3: she had kind of had this vibration of chaos within her,

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Speaker 3: you know, so to be in a chaotic environment like

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Speaker 3: war was where she felt most comfortable because, in my opinion,

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Speaker 3: it mirrored her in her life, you know, her in

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Speaker 3: her hunger for extreme sensation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think you did such a good

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Speaker 2: job in telling her story because one thing that makes

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Speaker 2: it really difficult is that when you are a camera person,

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Speaker 2: by definition, you are behind the camera, which means that

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Speaker 2: when you're trying to tell the story of her being

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Speaker 2: in these different environments and these really kind of high

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Speaker 2: streets experiences and traumatic experiences and war zones and stuff like,

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Speaker 2: the pictures that you have is that she's taken rather

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Speaker 2: than ones that she's necessarily participated in. So how did

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Speaker 2: you kind of navigate that?

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Speaker 3: Oh? That was so hard. It was extremely difficult to

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Speaker 3: find images of Margaret. The ones that we had were

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Speaker 3: either in her suitcase of treasures that she left to

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Speaker 3: Joe or I was just got on got on the

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Speaker 3: blower of New Zealand and talked to one friend who

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Speaker 3: gave me the number for another friend. And then this

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Speaker 3: fabulous man called Paul John said that school with Margaret,

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Speaker 3: I think I've got some sixteen mil film of Margaret's

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Speaker 3: staring straight down the barrel of the lens. We were

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Speaker 3: doing this war whole esque project at art school. Would

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Speaker 3: you like it? I said, yes please, So that footage

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Speaker 3: we had digitized, and that footage starts and ends the movie.

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Speaker 3: So I really thank mister Johns for that and the

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Speaker 3: other bet the other bed. I found her working by

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Speaker 3: doing research on this whole rible massacre in Lebanon, and

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Speaker 3: I was watching looking on YouTube hours at the stuff

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Speaker 3: and I wait a minute, back it up. Was that

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Speaker 3: Margaret on the ground with her camera and there was

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Speaker 3: evidence of Margaret in the back of other camera people's shots.

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Speaker 3: So it's just by dumb luck and assiduity I found that.

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Speaker 2: So it's rare enough for New Zealand journalists to be,

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Speaker 2: you know, working for CNN and in these kind of

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Speaker 2: war zones during this period, But just how uncommon was

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Speaker 2: it to have a female camera person in, you know,

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Speaker 2: in the in these kind of places.

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Speaker 3: Well, definitely there are standout even then. But I will

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Speaker 3: say Margaret was part of a slew of female journalists

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Speaker 3: and crew who were absorbed into this new form of

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Speaker 3: news which was CNN. Right Ted Ted Turner was like,

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Speaker 3: if they are qualified and willing to go, I'm going

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Speaker 3: to end them. So a lot of women into the

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Speaker 3: workforce at that time. As as I guess, war is

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Speaker 3: always like that. It's always brings a lot of women

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Speaker 3: into the workforce.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because I mean she's working alongside some you know,

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Speaker 2: legionds like Christiana' I'm poor and you know, yes, I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, the best known international and war correspondence of

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Speaker 2: the last few generations.

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Speaker 1: You believe I.

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Speaker 3: Got her on screen. I couldn't have counted on that,

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Speaker 3: but it was as a favorite job out of respect

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Speaker 3: for Margaret. She did it because the day that we

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Speaker 3: interviewed Christian was the day that Ukraine was invaded and

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Speaker 3: all the journalists were pinned in the red. They just

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Speaker 3: want to get there there there there their trauma bondage

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Speaker 3: to the job, in my opinion, and maybe that's what

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Speaker 3: it was with Margaret and wore her trauma inside matched

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Speaker 3: the trauma outside. You know what. I've never thought of that,

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Speaker 3: but that's exactly what I was trying to say before. Yes,

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Speaker 3: So it was extremely generous of Christian to give us

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Speaker 3: that time in the Margaret moth room at scene in London.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that observation is that's it's so on point, because

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Speaker 2: if you think about it, it's like it's like the

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Speaker 2: stuff that she sees and more, the horrors that she

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Speaker 2: saw and more kind of kind of gave meaning to

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Speaker 2: whatever crazy feelings she had buried inside or something.

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Speaker 3: Eh. Yeah, and her sense of justice and rage. You know,

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Speaker 3: she had quite a a volcanic volcanic rage within her

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Speaker 3: that would pop out at odd moments. But it kind

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Speaker 3: of I think it made sense on some disgusting plane

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Speaker 3: for her, like, yeah, look at this is how people behave.

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Speaker 3: I knew it. I knew it from my childhood. Here

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Speaker 3: it is, you know.

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Speaker 2: So one of the things that made the siege of

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Speaker 2: Sadajevo unique was that it's really the first time in

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Speaker 2: a conflict of that size that journalists have been deliberately targeted.

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Speaker 2: And of course it's coinciding with this advent of CNN,

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Speaker 2: So you've got this demand for twenty four hour news.

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Speaker 2: Tell us what happened to Margaret Insadeeva.

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Speaker 3: So the only time Margaret ever got shot, she was injured.

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Speaker 3: She was in the back of the van with her

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Speaker 3: colleagues and they were going to do a run of

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Speaker 3: the mill story out at the airport, and instead of

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Speaker 3: going around the tortuous back ways, somebody insisted that the

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Speaker 3: driver goes straight down Sniper Alley, and they must have

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Speaker 3: sort of cringed. But you just grin and bear it,

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Speaker 3: you know, you just get on.

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Speaker 2: With your job.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's not her place to say these things. Anyway,

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Speaker 3: she just happened to be the unlucky person in the

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Speaker 3: back of the van who got their face blown off.

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Speaker 3: And the man who made that decision had kind of

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Speaker 3: ruined his life. He never forgave himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it was really touch and go, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: they get her out of there, they rush her off.

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Speaker 2: She's flying to the US for treatment. Still super touch

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Speaker 2: and go. And then she has that amazing line where

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Speaker 2: she says she wants to return to Sudajovo so that

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Speaker 2: she can collect her teeth, wanted.

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Speaker 3: To find her teeth, And Jack, did you know that

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Speaker 3: I found her teeth? What found her teeth? Where were

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Speaker 3: her teeth? In the back of the driver's head. A

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Speaker 3: cushion of the bullet was so extreme that it shattered

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Speaker 3: all her teeth, and all the shards ended up in

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Speaker 3: the back of his teeth or many of them, and

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Speaker 3: for years he would be in the shower be sort

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Speaker 3: of washing his head and go, what's that little tickle thing?

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Speaker 3: And it will think out onto the tiles. And I

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Speaker 3: tried to put it in the film, but the New

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Speaker 3: Zella film commissioners like, oh, everybody begged me not to

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Speaker 3: seem disrespectful. I was like, Margaret Ward'll love.

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Speaker 2: It, Yeah, she would, I love it.

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Speaker 3: But to be honest, it didn't totally fit anywhere in

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Speaker 3: the in the film, so it got lost. But it's

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Speaker 3: an interesting little water cooler moment I would have liked

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Speaker 3: to include.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's amazing. So how did you feel at the

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Speaker 2: end of it about the directing process? This is something

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Speaker 2: you would like to do a bit more.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm like totally hooked now. I don't know why

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Speaker 3: I didn't do it in the last thirty years when

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Speaker 3: I could have. I've been offered the chance many times,

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Speaker 3: and I just always found it such a rotten job.

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Speaker 3: But now that I've directed a little independent documentary style film,

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Speaker 3: I'm now hungry to do it again, probably a narrative

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Speaker 3: one with actors this time, since that's really what I

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Speaker 3: understand best. So I'm working on a number of scripts

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Speaker 3: and you know, I've got to go and try to

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Speaker 3: get funded somewhere in the world. And yeah, I'm just

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Speaker 3: hustling like everybody else.

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Speaker 2: It's good. Well, I mean for a first crackt director,

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Speaker 2: and you did such a good job, especially directing in

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Speaker 2: the documentary. You did such a good job. You really,

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Speaker 2: I just I think you did. If you were aspiring

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Speaker 2: to bring Margaret home with the story, I think you

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Speaker 2: more than achieved that.

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Speaker 3: So can go great. Thank you that and I will

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Speaker 3: say I had help, you know, I had great colleagues,

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Speaker 3: so it definitely is a team effort. But thank you

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Speaker 3: on behalf of all of us where we're proud of that.

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Speaker 3: Thank you.

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Speaker 2: We appreciate your time. That is Lucy Lawless, the director

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Speaker 2: of the new documentary Never Look Away, about Keywee camera

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Speaker 2: woman Margaret Moth. Now Never Look Away as premiering tonight

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Speaker 2: eight thirty pm on the rialto Channel, and it has

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Speaker 2: encore screenings throughout March and April. All of the details

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Speaker 2: are at rialto Channel dot co dot nz.

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Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live

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Speaker 1: to newstalksz'd B from nine am Saturday, or followed upon

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Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio,