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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B.

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all

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Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of the US Now the

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Speaker 1: Leyton Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to podcasts two ninety two for June nine, twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five. Let me take you back to podcast one

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Speaker 2: oh five April twenty twenty one. It was one of

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Speaker 2: the best that we've done. Maybe at that point it

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Speaker 2: was the best. It's still one of the most inspiring.

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Speaker 2: Take Away from Northland, New Zealand. Born in poverty, you

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Speaker 2: might say, who led a most interesting life, carving for

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Speaker 2: himself a career ending as a professor of medicine of

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Speaker 2: the highest order, with abilities in multiple fields, his talent

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Speaker 2: in much demand. One I five was the first of

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Speaker 2: my interviews with Professor Des Gorman. As the date indicates,

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Speaker 2: the pretext was COVID nineteen. But it was also a

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Speaker 2: discussion inclusive of so many things, some politics, for example,

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Speaker 2: the inadequacy of the administration, health reform, understanding human nature,

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Speaker 2: confirmation bias, the World Health Organization. He wasn't keen the

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Speaker 2: country's inadequate leadership and the media, and it was an

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Speaker 2: education in governance. In sixty five minutes one oh five

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Speaker 2: was and still is, the only interview that stood on

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Speaker 2: its own, nothing else but Dez Gorman. We both enjoyed it.

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Speaker 2: We agreed on that and followed it with a lunch,

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Speaker 2: and that led to more of the same. A week ago,

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Speaker 2: on July second, Dez died at the age of seventy one.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't unexpected, but was incredibly sad, and he was

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Speaker 2: way too young. This morning I listened to the full

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Speaker 2: discussion and I'd forgotten how good it was, and it

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Speaker 2: was good because of des Gorman. I hope it gets

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Speaker 2: shared and played relentlessly, so pass it on. There's plenty

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Speaker 2: more I'd like to say, but it's all in the

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Speaker 2: interview that you're about to hear at The next sixty

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Speaker 2: five minutes is a tribute to Professor des Gorman.

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Speaker 3: Layton Smith.

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Speaker 2: Des Gorman is a professor of medicine in the Faculty

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Speaker 2: of Medical and Health Sciences at the University of Auckland.

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Speaker 2: From two thousand and five to twenty ten, he was

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Speaker 2: head of the University School of Medicine, He's also a

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Speaker 2: member of the teaching faculty at Monash University in Melbourne,

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Speaker 2: Harvard Macy Institute at Harvard University, and he has more

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Speaker 2: qualifications than most people I've ever known. He has a

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Speaker 2: Bachelor of Science, a Bachelor of Medicine and of Surgery,

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Speaker 2: and Doctor of Medicine, those degrees from the University of Auckland,

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Speaker 2: as well as a doctorate in Philosophy from the University

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Speaker 2: of Sydney. During his undergraduate education at the University of Auckland,

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Speaker 2: he was awarded the W. W. Phillips Scholarship, the Sir

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Speaker 2: Garrick Robertson Prize for Surgery, and a Senior University Prize

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Speaker 2: in Medicine and Human Biology. His two doctorates were awarded

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Speaker 2: for in vivo research into embolic brain injuries that was

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Speaker 2: from the University of Sydney and brain pathophysiology from the

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Speaker 2: University of Auckland. Professor Gorman is clinically active in both

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Speaker 2: public consultant physician to the Widermata District Health Board and

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Speaker 2: to the Royal New Zealand Navy and private practice Gorman

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Speaker 2: Health Services. He founded the twenty four hour divers Emergency

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Speaker 2: Service in Australia, New Zealand, in the South Pacific and

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Speaker 2: for the Royal Australasian College of Physicians. He was awarded

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Speaker 2: a fellowship by the RACP in Occupational Medicine and has

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Speaker 2: had many leadership roles for the College. Professor Gorman has

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Speaker 2: more than three hundred publications and ongoing act Medical Journal

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Speaker 2: editorial roles. Among his many national and international invited keynote

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Speaker 2: and plenary presentations, he is a recipient of the Nordmeya

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Speaker 2: Memorial Lecture Medal, the Vernon Collins Memorial Oration Medal and

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Speaker 2: the Cultural Memorial Oration And quite frankly, there's too many

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Speaker 2: of these things to go into, but briefly in other roles,

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Speaker 2: he in addition to commissions from the World Health Organization

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Speaker 2: and government health system consultancies outside New Zealand, they include

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Speaker 2: by the Way, Australia, Southeast Asia and Western Pacific, China, Canada,

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Speaker 2: Middle East, the UK and the USA. But he's also

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Speaker 2: consulted to or leed programs in New Zealand for the

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Speaker 2: Civil Aviation Authority, District Health Boards New Zealand and the

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Speaker 2: Department of Veteran Affairs. His current roles include a number

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Speaker 2: of national and international commercial consultancies. And here is something

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Speaker 2: that I find fascinating. Professor Gorman served in both the

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Speaker 2: Royal Australian Navy, where he was awarded the Peter Mitchell

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Speaker 2: Prize for the Royal Australian Navy Officer of the Year

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four, had awarded the Herbert Lot Award

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Speaker 2: for Ducks of the Royal Navy Submarine Officer's Course in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, and the Royal New Zealand Navy. During

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Speaker 2: his service in the RAN he trained as a submarine

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Speaker 2: officer and as a clearance diving officer. So having said

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Speaker 2: all that, Professor, let me quote you something from an

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Speaker 2: article thirty April last year in the New Zealand Herald

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Speaker 2: by Audrey Young. New Zealand was ill prepared for the

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Speaker 2: COVID nineteen pandemic and was caught with its pants down.

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Speaker 2: Leading academic Professor Des Gorman has told the Epidemic Response

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Speaker 2: Committee New Zealand should have closed this borders in mid February,

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Speaker 2: not at the end of March, but it didn't have

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Speaker 2: the resources to do. So what's happened or what might

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Speaker 2: have happened to rearrange your approach that you had then

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Speaker 2: to Now that's a very good question.

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Speaker 3: I'll stand by the statement that we were with our

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Speaker 3: pants down. We knew we weren't ready. Our public health

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Speaker 3: units had been systematically underfunded for decades. And the reason

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Speaker 3: why I know that so well as we tried to

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Speaker 3: ship funds to them when I was on the National

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Speaker 3: Health Board and running Health Workforce New Zealand. And it

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Speaker 3: comes a great surprise to your listeners to find out

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Speaker 3: we were actively opposed by the Ministry of Health. He

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Speaker 3: was trying to capture our budget. We got no support

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Speaker 3: from the DHBs, who simply wanted the money given to

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Speaker 3: them as a bottom line right off of their operating losses.

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Speaker 3: And once my colleagues and the medical craft Gilds got

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Speaker 3: wind of the fact it was a zero sum game.

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Speaker 3: Some more money for public health meant more or less

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Speaker 3: money for them, they opposed it as well. So we

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Speaker 3: went into the pandemic with public health units that had

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Speaker 3: failed to address the meals outbreak, failed to address an

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Speaker 3: influenza outbroke, and failed around Contamina Water and Havelock North.

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Speaker 3: Our health system is in a very parless state. The

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Speaker 3: idea that we could actually accommodate something like COVID with

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Speaker 3: spare capacity as ludicrous as people are aware now, our

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Speaker 3: hospital systems overrun at the moment. So what spare capacity

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Speaker 3: is there for COVID patients ounce is none. We have

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Speaker 3: only we only had one third of the ventilators per

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Speaker 3: capita compared to Australia. We had short falls intensive care workforce.

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Speaker 3: For the only thing we had going for us was

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Speaker 3: our geography, and in two thousand and six there was

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Speaker 3: a plan to produce a plan which identified that, but

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Speaker 3: we had no pandemic plan. When I returned back from

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Speaker 3: the Middle East where i'd been working at Amman, because

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Speaker 3: I'd chair the Minister of Health Strategic Council there, I

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Speaker 3: knew what they were doing to gear up the pandemic.

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Speaker 3: I stopped off in Singapore, so I'd been with the

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Speaker 3: National Health Group in Singapore the year before. They were

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Speaker 3: getting ready and I came home late and it was

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Speaker 3: like coming back to a backyard barbecue, just this almost

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Speaker 3: spectacular casual indifference. And so I've been meeting regularly with

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Speaker 3: our Minister of Health up until COVID, in my recommendation,

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Speaker 3: has closed the border. Now sought out the logistics and

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Speaker 3: then let's get underway with proper pandemic management. But the

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Speaker 3: response was what do we do with all the people

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Speaker 3: coming home? And what about tourism and what about trade?

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Speaker 3: And the World Health Organization is still arguing against travel bands.

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Speaker 3: But by the way, I'm not a great fan of

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump, but his criticism of the WHO was absolutely

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Speaker 3: on the money in this regard. So, you know, eventually

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Speaker 3: the WHO got around to declaring a pandemic from the

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Speaker 3: twelfth of March, it still took us a week to

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Speaker 3: close our border. We didn't close the border until the

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Speaker 3: nineteenth March. And in that week between when the WHO

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Speaker 3: finally moved and when we moved, forty percent of all

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Speaker 3: the viral subtypes in our first lockdown were walked into

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Speaker 3: the country. So have I changed my mind about our

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Speaker 3: ill preparedness know anything?

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Speaker 2: But so here's what I think is an interesting question.

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Speaker 2: Why is it that five million odd, well four and

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Speaker 2: a half million, apparently four and a half million people

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Speaker 2: think that the government and the Prime Minister in particular

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Speaker 2: have done a wonderful job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting, probably best described in sort of behavioral terms.

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Speaker 3: We were frightened. We had that ridiculous modeling of just

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Speaker 3: over a year ago that there'd be tens of thousands

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Speaker 3: of deaths. The reason why I call it ridiculous is

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Speaker 3: where was the data to feed into the model. I mean,

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Speaker 3: the pandemic was in its infancy. Where on Earth did

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Speaker 3: that data come from? But it was sufficiently frightened that

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Speaker 3: we headed off to the supermarkets, bought our body weight

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Speaker 3: in toilet paper, and headed home to our arks to

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Speaker 3: wait out the flood. And in doing so, we left

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Speaker 3: behind us people to die in hospitals and women to

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Speaker 3: be alone after they gave birth. So given a sufficiently

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Speaker 3: large scare, we accepted authoritarian in humanity. I mean, if

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Speaker 3: I'd said to you a few years ago, they'd given

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Speaker 3: an appropriate scare about a respiratory virus, we'd require people

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Speaker 3: to die loan and women would be alone after they

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Speaker 3: gave birth. You'd say, that's not us. Well, it was us.

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Speaker 3: That's that's how we behave. But that fear, and that

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Speaker 3: culture of fear has persisted laden the whole political theater

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Speaker 3: of levels announcements. The way we're managing the pandemic is

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Speaker 3: a black box management rather than an open book. Management

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Speaker 3: generates fear, and when we become frightened, we become anxious,

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Speaker 3: and we manage our anxiety by faith and establishment figures

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Speaker 3: and in authority, and in that context we have placed

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Speaker 3: our faith in the Director Journal of Health, and in

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Speaker 3: the Prime Minister and in the government. And then the

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Speaker 3: behaviorism is that once we have put our faith into establishment,

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Speaker 3: we endow it. And it's called endowment theory. We're endow

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Speaker 3: our thoughts or the things we owd with more value

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Speaker 3: than they are worth. So we've endowed that thought and

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Speaker 3: then long comes confirmation by us, so that anything that

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Speaker 3: doesn't fit with our endowment we ignore. Anything that does

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Speaker 3: fit with our endowment we accept. And that's how you

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Speaker 3: get fringe groups like the anti the anti vaccination people

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Speaker 3: around the relationship between autism and measles vaccine. Once you've

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Speaker 3: endowed a particular theory, you almost become immune to anything

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Speaker 3: which is in conflict with that theory. So the reason

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Speaker 3: why the government remains so favorably viewed is that's how

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Speaker 3: people are managing their anxiety by faith through endowment and

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Speaker 3: then with the acting they overlaid on top of that

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Speaker 3: confirmation bias.

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Speaker 2: That study of philosophy that you did in Sydney at

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Speaker 2: City University is that how much did that study that

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Speaker 2: degree contribute to what you've just said.

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Speaker 3: I think late in my life has been a series

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Speaker 3: of exposures, experiences which have shaped the way I think.

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Speaker 3: I came from a very poor background. My mother was

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Speaker 3: the mother's mari ancestry. She trained its nurse. My father

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Speaker 3: was an Australian serviceman who was disabled by Japanese machine

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Speaker 3: gun rounds during the war. So I grew up in

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Speaker 3: a very poor environment with a and so that's a

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Speaker 3: shaking experience. I was very influenced by my time in

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Speaker 3: the Navy. In the Australian Navy, I dropped out of

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Speaker 3: medicine for a while because became disillusion by hospital medicine

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Speaker 3: and I trained as a sub mariner and a mine

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Speaker 3: warfare and Clarence dominent officer. And it was the Navy's

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Speaker 3: attention to leadership and followership and education, so that when

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Speaker 3: I came back to medicine later and I suddenly realized

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Speaker 3: the breathtaking arrogance of my profession. We assumed because we're

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Speaker 3: a good doctor with an at B lead and none

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Speaker 3: of that's true. So from when I came back to

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Speaker 3: medicine in the late eighties, I've had this view of

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Speaker 3: my profession, which has been which has led me to

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Speaker 3: be very open minded about my experiences and over last

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Speaker 3: as say two or three decades, is I've got more

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Speaker 3: and more into health systems and health system design. I've

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Speaker 3: become even more and more with the fundamental nature of

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Speaker 3: human behavior. For example, I've become fascinated by the aspects

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Speaker 3: of human behavior which underpin how we behave socially, and

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Speaker 3: in particular how our behavior is highly highly predictable, but

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Speaker 3: often quite irrational. And yet we design a health system

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Speaker 3: which requires all of various actors to behave rationally, and

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Speaker 3: the only way the system can work is if we

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Speaker 3: have consistent rational behavior. Well, that's not designed for a

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Speaker 3: species called sapiens, because that's not the how, that's not

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Speaker 3: the way we behave.

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Speaker 2: When you say that people don't behave rationally, there must

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Speaker 2: be preconditions to that. It must be that must be overcomeable.

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Speaker 3: Yes, people are capable of rational behavior and of deductive

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Speaker 3: reasoning and logic, but these are hugely energy can assuming activities,

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Speaker 3: and most of the time we operate on the basis

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Speaker 3: of drop off biases or stimuli or cues which induce

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Speaker 3: certain sorts of behaviors and predictably do so. I'll give

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Speaker 3: you an example. If we're confronted with a potential loss,

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Speaker 3: will work very very hard to protect what we have,

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Speaker 3: as compared to our hard will work for an equivalent gain,

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Speaker 3: and that's called loss a version. Humans predictably respond far

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Speaker 3: more aggressively to a potential loss than a gain. Yet

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Speaker 3: we design systems which assume that we can stimulate behavior

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Speaker 3: by providing rewards.

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Speaker 2: Only does all of the above or is all of

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Speaker 2: the above affecting the governance of this country?

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think it is. I think COVID is a

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Speaker 3: sort of a microchism of a much broader malaise that

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Speaker 3: the I mean, the assumption is that the government can

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Speaker 3: actually and undertake duties of governance, of course, is laughable.

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Speaker 3: When you look across the members of government and say

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Speaker 3: who of those have had actual experience in a governance role,

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Speaker 3: then the answer is almost none of them. And if

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Speaker 3: you look then at the way in which we've governed

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Speaker 3: COVID as a microchism of that larger picture, you'd say, well,

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Speaker 3: first of all, it's been heavily politicized. And that's a

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Speaker 3: problem because the minute you try to manage electoral risk

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Speaker 3: as well as health and well being risk, and economic

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Speaker 3: and livelihood risk, it becomes impossible. It's difficult enough balancing

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Speaker 3: off economic and health risk, let alone, once you impose

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Speaker 3: electoral risk. And my experience in thirty odd health reviews

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Speaker 3: or reforms around the planet is that the more politicized

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Speaker 3: they are, the more pear shaped they become. If you

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Speaker 3: consider our COVID management and the consequence that the fact

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Speaker 3: that it is politicized, which means it's partisan, you see

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Speaker 3: immediately why we don't have an explicit statement of risk

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Speaker 3: appetite and the reason why we can't predict what's going

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Speaker 3: to happen next, because in fact, it's been driven by

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Speaker 3: political optics, not by a discreete view of what risk

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Speaker 3: we should face. And if I go back to my

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Speaker 3: Navy days, if we were going to carry out a

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Speaker 3: task we're saying attacks swim, the first thing we do

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Speaker 3: is decide what our risk appetite was, and that would

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Speaker 3: drive our behavior from the beginning to the end. And

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Speaker 3: I think also, if you got the way we've governed,

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Speaker 3: sorry we've undergoone governance of COVID, We've allowed a couple

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Speaker 3: of quite malignant cultures to creep, and one of those

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Speaker 3: is the culture of fear, where we motivate people through fear,

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Speaker 3: and fear generates political capital because of the fact that

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Speaker 3: people manage their fear by putting faith in establishment. The

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Speaker 3: other malignant culture we've adopted is that of we're the

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Speaker 3: best in show with the envy of the world. Well, frankly,

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Speaker 3: we're not the best to show. Countries like Taiwan have

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Speaker 3: left us for DearS in terms of COVID management. But

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Speaker 3: the reason why it's malignant culture is it leads to

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Speaker 3: three things. When you decide you're the best in show,

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Speaker 3: you become complacent and we do too. You stop learning.

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Speaker 3: And you imagine how Michael Baker felt felt when you said, look,

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Speaker 3: we need to introduce mask squaring. For the next three months,

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Speaker 3: the Ministry of Health kept pushing back and pushing back,

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Speaker 3: saying there's no evidence for it, it wasn't necessary. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you imagine how he felt saying, well, I just can't

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Speaker 3: understand why I'm getting this pushback. And it's the fact

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Speaker 3: that we've been unable to learn. If you think about

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Speaker 3: our border management, we almost had one border breach per day.

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Speaker 3: It hasn't improved since last July, our contact tracing we

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Speaker 3: instead of hitting eighty percent of a four day outcome target,

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Speaker 3: we're around fifty percent best. It hasn't improved since last July.

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Speaker 3: There's no improvement because when you're best in show, it's

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Speaker 3: hard to learn. And I think the final aspect of

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Speaker 3: that culture laid, which perhaps worries me even more, is

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Speaker 3: that you fit the facts to the narrative, not the

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Speaker 3: narrative to the facts. And I don't know how many

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Speaker 3: times we've been misled. All the Russian see them that

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Speaker 3: have been tested, Know they haven't. They've all been a quarantine.

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Speaker 3: No they haven't. All the border workers have been tested.

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Speaker 3: No they're not. No one's leaving quarantine early, Yes they are.

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Speaker 3: There's no Mexican mingling, Yes there is. We've got plenty

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Speaker 3: of influenza vaccine. No we don't. The nurses are getting

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Speaker 3: plenty of ppe. No they're not.

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Speaker 2: Hold it. This list is getting too long. It's frightening me,

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Speaker 2: is is it? How is it that you're sitting there

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Speaker 2: talking to me making these statements which I believe, and

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Speaker 2: yet no one's ripping the government's head off collectively.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think we have a populist government with a

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Speaker 3: populist prime minister. We did also with John Key. I

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Speaker 3: think other than people such as yourself and people like

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Speaker 3: Michael Mora and Mike Costkings, I think we have a

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Speaker 3: populist media. I think media generally writes articles or produces

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Speaker 3: things which they know people agree with and like. So

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Speaker 3: when you have a prime minister and a government that's

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Speaker 3: navigating on a populis ste and a media navigating on

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Speaker 3: a popular star, there's that going to be a high

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Speaker 3: level of concordance and a low level of critical thinking

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Speaker 3: my own. If I think about academia, most of the

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Speaker 3: negative comments I've had laden about speaking out have come

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Speaker 3: from fellow academics saying you shouldn't speak out, We should

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Speaker 3: get behind the government. It's important that we all team,

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Speaker 3: one team of five million, I think. And then when

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Speaker 3: you have people who when the public is in this

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Speaker 3: fearful state, they simply ignore anything which doesn't fit with

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Speaker 3: their world view.

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Speaker 2: For me, one of the greatest lies that has taken

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Speaker 2: place and is accepted by the majority of people is

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Speaker 2: the science is settled. Yes, find I find that incredibly

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Speaker 2: frightening because you just you just covered it. You when

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Speaker 2: you when you believe when you believe that, then you

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Speaker 2: become complacent. Yeah, it's absolutely right, and not only that,

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Speaker 2: you don't discover where it might be wrong, and in

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Speaker 2: many cases is and proper is wrong.

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Speaker 3: Look, I think that's absolutely right. If you think about

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Speaker 3: the one of the negative outcomes of that we're the

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Speaker 3: best in show culture that I mentioned is it becomes

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Speaker 3: very difficult to learn and it becomes very difficult to adapt.

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Speaker 3: And even when you're confronted with clear evidence, for example,

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Speaker 3: that to contact tracing methodology has plateaueded level way below

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Speaker 3: what we need, you keep finding reasons to explain it.

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Speaker 3: I heard a government ministers say the other day, well,

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Speaker 3: we can't expect to do much better than fifty percent.

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Speaker 3: In other words, of all the people we should have identified, contacted,

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Speaker 3: tested and managed within four days each aver elseid it

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Speaker 3: should be north of eighty percent. I think it should

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Speaker 3: be north of ninety five percent myself. But we're heading

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Speaker 3: at best fifty two percent. And the response from this

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Speaker 3: government minister was yes, but it's particularly difficult population and

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Speaker 3: we're having and they're hard to manage. And I'm thinking,

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Speaker 3: so you've designed a system which doesn't account for humans.

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Speaker 3: Who was the system designed for automatons robots. So at

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Speaker 3: one level even the social science is deficient in terms

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Speaker 3: of the evolution of the virus, the impact that the

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Speaker 3: vaccines will have, the modern vaccines. Then, I think, with

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Speaker 3: all due respect, there's a lot of unknown sitting in there.

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Speaker 3: Will you get vaccinated? Yes, I will. First of all,

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Speaker 3: it's going to be almost certainly an obligation to travel.

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Speaker 3: I think it's as a vaccine. It's very clear the

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Speaker 3: fires a vaccine has a very low risk profile given

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Speaker 3: the millions of arms it's been injected into. But I

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Speaker 3: get vaccinated not thinking it's some sort of silver bullet laid,

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Speaker 3: and I get vaccinated on the understanding that this will

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Speaker 3: protect me against the viruses that existed to the date

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Speaker 3: the vaccine was produced, and I'm going to need boosters

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Speaker 3: to catch up on the new viruses. So our vaccine

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Speaker 3: effort is playing catch up. It'll never get ahead of

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Speaker 3: the virus.

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Speaker 2: But for those who think who think differently, and there

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Speaker 2: are quite a number of them, I get correspondents, while

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Speaker 2: you say you're going to get this vaccine, that you'll

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Speaker 2: get this vaccination, but you'll have to have catch ups

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Speaker 2: along the way. Are you not exposing yourself to exactly

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Speaker 2: what they're saying. And I'm not arguing either way here

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Speaker 2: because I'm actually quite open minded, but reluctantly so that

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Speaker 2: you're exposing yourself to future changes, you're exposing yourself to hurt.

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Speaker 2: Mentality actually where you just accept it, you've got to

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Speaker 2: do it, and you don't worry. You stop worrying about it.

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Speaker 2: You become complacent about it because so far it's it's

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Speaker 2: been okay, and before you know it, you're being injected

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Speaker 2: with the sorts of things that scare the hell out

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Speaker 2: of people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, I can understand that sort of concept of

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Speaker 3: a slippery slope and how you by making one decision

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Speaker 3: you lead yourself to another decision and you end up

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Speaker 3: losing both your intellectual and your moral com to sign

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Speaker 3: to stand that entirely. But I think we have to

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Speaker 3: see that vaccination has different logic and different countries and

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Speaker 3: hence the need for different sorts of vaccines. For example,

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Speaker 3: in the UK and in the US, the vaccine they

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Speaker 3: need is to reduce the number of people are getting

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Speaker 3: very sick and needing to go to hospital and reduce

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Speaker 3: the number of people of dying. So they will choose

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Speaker 3: a vaccine which attenuates the course of the illness, Whereas

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Speaker 3: if the New Zealand approach is look our health systems

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Speaker 3: on its knees, it simply can't accommodate any form of

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Speaker 3: increased patient load. We need a vaccine which can actually

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Speaker 3: produce very high levels of resistance to being infected. Hence

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Speaker 3: the choice of fires, which is probably a pretty good choice.

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Speaker 3: It's sophisticated vaccine, it's genetic material. Does that mean we

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Speaker 3: are eliminating the harmless forms of the virus and the

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Speaker 3: more newly emergent forms will then run rampant. That's not

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Speaker 3: the natural history of evolution of viruses. Actually, viruses find

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Speaker 3: an accommodation with their host. If you have a virus

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Speaker 3: which is lethal and kills its host, it doesn't survive.

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Speaker 3: So the natural history of evolution of viruses, they tend

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Speaker 3: to get more effective, but they tend to get less virulent.

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Speaker 3: So I think we I mean, I think vaccination is

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Speaker 3: a very complex issue and different countries have very different

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Speaker 3: needs and should choose very different vaccination approaches.

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Speaker 2: Let me direct you immediately to Brazil, where there was

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Speaker 2: a report this very morning with regard to the new

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Speaker 2: version of the virus, and it's killing young people by

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Speaker 2: the thousands.

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Speaker 3: Now I saw that there's certainly some of the new

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Speaker 3: variants seem to have a greater effect on younger people

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Speaker 3: than the original variants of the virus. Brazil's a post

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Speaker 3: the child for what happens when you don't take even

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Speaker 3: the basic public health measures. And also Brazil's a post

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Speaker 3: a child for what happens when you politicize any form

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Speaker 3: of health response. As I said to you before, if

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Speaker 3: I look at all the health systems I've reviewed or edit, audited,

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Speaker 3: or health reforms I've led, the more politicized they are,

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Speaker 3: the more pear shape they become. In Brazil's they sadly

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Speaker 3: oppost the child for them.

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Speaker 2: And everything these days, practically everything has become politicized, has

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Speaker 2: it not.

431
00:25:28,773 --> 00:25:31,933
Speaker 3: Yes, Look, any form of health reform is inherently political

432
00:25:31,973 --> 00:25:34,933
Speaker 3: because ultimately, in the country like New Zealand, the health

433
00:25:35,013 --> 00:25:39,013
Speaker 3: burden is on taxpayers. In New Zealand, of course, most

434
00:25:39,093 --> 00:25:42,973
Speaker 3: taxpayers don't even think about healthcare and they just assume

435
00:25:43,013 --> 00:25:44,333
Speaker 3: that when they need it in the future, it will

436
00:25:44,413 --> 00:25:47,653
Speaker 3: be there for them. So they regard it like insurance,

437
00:25:47,653 --> 00:25:50,653
Speaker 3: and so they don't actually critically look at how their

438
00:25:50,653 --> 00:25:54,893
Speaker 3: health system is operating. But the last semi successful reform

439
00:25:54,893 --> 00:25:57,933
Speaker 3: of our health system lateness in nineteen thirty eight by

440
00:25:58,453 --> 00:26:02,693
Speaker 3: another Australian called Michael Joseph Savat, who in the same

441
00:26:02,773 --> 00:26:06,853
Speaker 3: year that introduced social welfare, tried to introduce a universal

442
00:26:06,893 --> 00:26:10,253
Speaker 3: healthcare system into New Zealand. He did it in hospitals,

443
00:26:10,253 --> 00:26:13,413
Speaker 3: but the New Zealand chapter of the British Medical Association,

444
00:26:13,573 --> 00:26:16,893
Speaker 3: the GPS, opposed him and rolled him. And it's fascinating.

445
00:26:16,933 --> 00:26:18,973
Speaker 3: So you think about it. That guy had all the

446
00:26:18,973 --> 00:26:21,853
Speaker 3: political capital of the Great Depression and the GPS rolled him.

447
00:26:22,373 --> 00:26:25,213
Speaker 3: And that's a different subject, but it's the political economy

448
00:26:25,213 --> 00:26:28,453
Speaker 3: of health reform. And in the last eighty three years

449
00:26:28,493 --> 00:26:31,293
Speaker 3: we've had a succession of failed health reforms, and since

450
00:26:31,373 --> 00:26:35,533
Speaker 3: nine ninety three we've had an obsession with structural reform.

451
00:26:36,133 --> 00:26:40,053
Speaker 3: The two things that drive health reforms are equity and cost,

452
00:26:40,373 --> 00:26:42,733
Speaker 3: and because of a whole range of things, we've had

453
00:26:42,773 --> 00:26:45,293
Speaker 3: a succession of failed reforms. And at the cornerstone of

454
00:26:45,333 --> 00:26:49,333
Speaker 3: it is those reforms have been partisan. And because any

455
00:26:49,333 --> 00:26:52,093
Speaker 3: health reform will have winners and losers, all you hear

456
00:26:52,133 --> 00:26:54,973
Speaker 3: from is the losers, and there's no political will to

457
00:26:55,093 --> 00:26:58,653
Speaker 3: manage the losers, particularly when they're very strong advocacy groups

458
00:26:59,013 --> 00:27:03,213
Speaker 3: like the GPS or the various medical colleges or breast

459
00:27:03,293 --> 00:27:05,853
Speaker 3: cancer in New Zealand. That's not criticizing any of those groups.

460
00:27:05,973 --> 00:27:08,453
Speaker 3: It's in fact saying that they are fabulous advocates for

461
00:27:08,533 --> 00:27:10,053
Speaker 3: their particular communities.

462
00:27:10,693 --> 00:27:14,373
Speaker 2: Speaking of the hospital system as it is now, that

463
00:27:14,453 --> 00:27:17,133
Speaker 2: takes me back to something you said a little earlier,

464
00:27:17,253 --> 00:27:20,333
Speaker 2: the state that it's in. I spent some time two

465
00:27:20,373 --> 00:27:23,973
Speaker 2: days ago on the weekend with somebody who had been

466
00:27:24,013 --> 00:27:28,053
Speaker 2: in hospital for two weeks, both Auckland's North Shore and

467
00:27:28,653 --> 00:27:34,613
Speaker 2: Auckland's Hospital, and this particular individual works in a form

468
00:27:34,653 --> 00:27:38,773
Speaker 2: of the health system, and I said, was what were

469
00:27:38,773 --> 00:27:41,853
Speaker 2: the conditions like? Because she had made a couple of

470
00:27:41,853 --> 00:27:43,733
Speaker 2: comments during the conversation, I said, well, what were the

471
00:27:43,733 --> 00:27:48,173
Speaker 2: conditions like? She said, third world? Didn't hesitate third world.

472
00:27:48,413 --> 00:27:52,373
Speaker 2: She said, the food acceptable, the staff are fabulous. The

473
00:27:52,493 --> 00:27:54,213
Speaker 2: system is third world.

474
00:27:55,173 --> 00:27:58,933
Speaker 3: Sadly true, as I said, our health system's not fit

475
00:27:59,013 --> 00:28:02,333
Speaker 3: for purpose, but it hasn't been since nineteen thirty eight.

476
00:28:02,493 --> 00:28:08,013
Speaker 3: It's unaffordable, and ironically it's unaffordable because it's been sufficiently

477
00:28:08,013 --> 00:28:12,173
Speaker 3: six tessful in creating a large population of older people

478
00:28:12,213 --> 00:28:14,853
Speaker 3: who consume a lot of healthcare and don't pay tax

479
00:28:14,893 --> 00:28:17,333
Speaker 3: and instead of consuming a lot of healthcare in their

480
00:28:17,413 --> 00:28:20,053
Speaker 3: last year of life and are living ten or more

481
00:28:20,173 --> 00:28:23,933
Speaker 3: years with multiple comorbidity. So a bit like the National

482
00:28:23,933 --> 00:28:25,973
Speaker 3: Health Service which is now in the UK, which is

483
00:28:26,013 --> 00:28:29,613
Speaker 3: now chronically insolvent. It reflects the fact that pay as

484
00:28:29,653 --> 00:28:33,173
Speaker 3: you go health systems simply reach a point where they

485
00:28:33,253 --> 00:28:38,693
Speaker 3: create a demography which renders them unaffordable. It's unsustainable. We

486
00:28:38,773 --> 00:28:42,333
Speaker 3: have a reliance and overseas trained doctors and nurses which

487
00:28:42,373 --> 00:28:47,053
Speaker 3: the World Health Organization recognizes as being unsustainable, and it's

488
00:28:47,093 --> 00:28:49,493
Speaker 3: never been fit for purpose. And I'll give you just

489
00:28:49,613 --> 00:28:53,893
Speaker 3: one example of the problem of the primary observation you're

490
00:28:53,933 --> 00:28:55,453
Speaker 3: making you look at a health system, and that is

491
00:28:56,053 --> 00:29:02,293
Speaker 3: the observation of inequity. My sister died from a horrible

492
00:29:02,293 --> 00:29:06,373
Speaker 3: illness called multiple myeloma. She lived in Tokara. She died

493
00:29:06,413 --> 00:29:11,373
Speaker 3: a terrible death by her school teacher friends, and they

494
00:29:11,413 --> 00:29:14,533
Speaker 3: were mixing up her chemotherapy in the kitchen sink. That's

495
00:29:14,613 --> 00:29:17,373
Speaker 3: not even third world, that's worse than third world. But

496
00:29:17,413 --> 00:29:19,373
Speaker 3: at the same time, late in my next door neighbor

497
00:29:19,573 --> 00:29:23,213
Speaker 3: in Devenport was dying a respiratory illness and the pallative

498
00:29:23,293 --> 00:29:26,533
Speaker 3: care he received from White Matar was absolutely first class.

499
00:29:27,893 --> 00:29:31,133
Speaker 3: And there's dozens of paired examples. I can give you

500
00:29:31,373 --> 00:29:34,013
Speaker 3: how you experience our health system depends on who you are,

501
00:29:34,613 --> 00:29:37,253
Speaker 3: where you are and what you need, want or expect

502
00:29:37,573 --> 00:29:39,573
Speaker 3: you and I, if we have a stroke today in Auckland,

503
00:29:39,613 --> 00:29:42,013
Speaker 3: will be very well looked after. But if I look

504
00:29:42,053 --> 00:29:44,773
Speaker 3: at my mari relatives in Northland who are self medicating

505
00:29:44,773 --> 00:29:48,213
Speaker 3: their mental health problems, that's not even third world. So

506
00:29:48,693 --> 00:29:52,533
Speaker 3: our health system is absolutely characterized not by universalism but

507
00:29:52,693 --> 00:29:53,653
Speaker 3: by inequity.

508
00:29:53,973 --> 00:29:58,453
Speaker 2: So you're saying that it's the basically a default class system.

509
00:29:59,973 --> 00:30:02,893
Speaker 3: Yes, I am, and it goes it's not just ethnic,

510
00:30:02,973 --> 00:30:05,333
Speaker 3: and it's not just demographic, it's not just social. There

511
00:30:05,333 --> 00:30:10,013
Speaker 3: are some services which we provide in abundance and others

512
00:30:10,013 --> 00:30:12,013
Speaker 3: we don't. And this goes back to nineteen thirty eight

513
00:30:12,013 --> 00:30:15,733
Speaker 3: and that political economy of It's interesting you look at

514
00:30:15,813 --> 00:30:19,253
Speaker 3: these inequities which have existed for decades and you'd say, okay,

515
00:30:19,333 --> 00:30:23,613
Speaker 3: when health spend relative to GDP is stable or declining,

516
00:30:23,933 --> 00:30:27,373
Speaker 3: you can understand how the vested investment in the invested

517
00:30:27,413 --> 00:30:31,133
Speaker 3: groups with influence can maintain their status because it's a

518
00:30:31,253 --> 00:30:35,493
Speaker 3: zero sum game and any money shifted to the areas

519
00:30:35,533 --> 00:30:38,173
Speaker 3: of need is money from them, so they actively oppose it,

520
00:30:38,213 --> 00:30:40,653
Speaker 3: and they've been very successful in doing that. But what's

521
00:30:40,693 --> 00:30:43,013
Speaker 3: interesting when you look at there's a Treasury study from

522
00:30:44,253 --> 00:30:49,133
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy over last sorry, from nineteen fifty to two thousand,

523
00:30:49,413 --> 00:30:51,653
Speaker 3: a fifty year Treasury study, and it showed that even

524
00:30:51,733 --> 00:30:56,013
Speaker 3: when health spend relative to GDP has gone up, those

525
00:30:56,133 --> 00:30:59,413
Speaker 3: vested interest groups have captured all the new money because

526
00:30:59,453 --> 00:31:02,293
Speaker 3: the areas of inequity don't have advocacy, they don't have

527
00:31:02,333 --> 00:31:05,133
Speaker 3: a voice, they don't have a consumer group to actually

528
00:31:05,133 --> 00:31:08,813
Speaker 3: advocate on their behalf. And so what's fascinating that fifty

529
00:31:08,853 --> 00:31:11,653
Speaker 3: year period from nineteen fifty to two thousand is the

530
00:31:11,773 --> 00:31:14,453
Speaker 3: rich have got richer, the poor have got poorer, even

531
00:31:14,533 --> 00:31:16,333
Speaker 3: in times where health spend's gone up.

532
00:31:17,053 --> 00:31:19,933
Speaker 2: I have had an opinion for a long time, at

533
00:31:19,973 --> 00:31:22,693
Speaker 2: a very simple opinion, and you'll tell me whether I'm

534
00:31:22,773 --> 00:31:27,533
Speaker 2: right or wrong, but that opinion is that management has

535
00:31:27,573 --> 00:31:32,653
Speaker 2: got way overstopped in relation to the actual services and

536
00:31:32,733 --> 00:31:33,893
Speaker 2: the front of line staff.

537
00:31:34,693 --> 00:31:36,173
Speaker 3: I'm not going to disagree with you at all. I

538
00:31:36,213 --> 00:31:36,773
Speaker 3: think you're right.

539
00:31:36,893 --> 00:31:37,893
Speaker 2: Then how does it happen?

540
00:31:39,053 --> 00:31:41,813
Speaker 3: Well, Because since nineteen eighty three we've been trying to

541
00:31:41,853 --> 00:31:46,293
Speaker 3: solve in equity and a cost problem by structural reform,

542
00:31:46,333 --> 00:31:49,333
Speaker 3: we've just created more and more structures and more and

543
00:31:49,333 --> 00:31:54,493
Speaker 3: more layers of bureaucracy. The Ministry of Health, with all

544
00:31:54,573 --> 00:31:57,493
Speaker 3: due respect, is one of the weakest policy shops that

545
00:31:57,493 --> 00:31:59,973
Speaker 3: I've encountered in the health systems that I've worked with.

546
00:32:01,213 --> 00:32:03,493
Speaker 3: And yet it looks as though we're going to increase

547
00:32:03,533 --> 00:32:08,573
Speaker 3: the Wellington bureaucracy, not decrease it. We need fewer people

548
00:32:08,613 --> 00:32:12,933
Speaker 3: with better skills. For example, modern health funding is about

549
00:32:13,213 --> 00:32:16,573
Speaker 3: commissioning for outcomes where you are very tight on what

550
00:32:16,613 --> 00:32:18,333
Speaker 3: you want and very tight on how you're going to

551
00:32:18,333 --> 00:32:21,333
Speaker 3: measure it, but absolutely loose about how it's achieved. Because

552
00:32:21,373 --> 00:32:26,253
Speaker 3: if consumer providers sorry, have both outcome risk and financial risk,

553
00:32:26,333 --> 00:32:29,253
Speaker 3: they will be innovative. That's how the world's best l systems,

554
00:32:29,693 --> 00:32:32,133
Speaker 3: almost all of which are American by the way, in private,

555
00:32:32,613 --> 00:32:36,493
Speaker 3: that's how they operate. They operate through a perpetual search

556
00:32:36,533 --> 00:32:40,093
Speaker 3: for doing better. But if I look across our bureaucracy

557
00:32:40,133 --> 00:32:43,413
Speaker 3: and say how many people there actually understand actualism. How

558
00:32:43,453 --> 00:32:46,573
Speaker 3: many of them understand counterfactuals. How many of them actually

559
00:32:46,613 --> 00:32:49,013
Speaker 3: know how to create a structural alliance. The answer is

560
00:32:49,013 --> 00:32:51,613
Speaker 3: almost none of them. The reason for that is the

561
00:32:51,613 --> 00:32:55,293
Speaker 3: reason for that is that they are self serving bureaucracies

562
00:32:55,653 --> 00:32:58,893
Speaker 3: which exist to create policy which is very rarely ever

563
00:32:59,373 --> 00:33:02,013
Speaker 3: translated into action, and which if it is very rarely

564
00:33:02,053 --> 00:33:06,493
Speaker 3: translates into better experiences. If you look at the next

565
00:33:06,533 --> 00:33:09,933
Speaker 3: wave of reforms which are about receive, it's all about

566
00:33:09,973 --> 00:33:13,373
Speaker 3: plumbing and wiring late and it's not about how people

567
00:33:13,373 --> 00:33:17,173
Speaker 3: will experience their health care system. Differently, I was diagnosed

568
00:33:17,173 --> 00:33:20,253
Speaker 3: with a very rare form of lung cancer about a

569
00:33:20,333 --> 00:33:24,493
Speaker 3: year ago, and fortunately it's one of the more treatable

570
00:33:24,533 --> 00:33:26,933
Speaker 3: forms of lung cancer. And I'm looking at the new

571
00:33:26,933 --> 00:33:29,013
Speaker 3: health reforms saying, I don't give a flying toss about

572
00:33:29,013 --> 00:33:31,653
Speaker 3: how many new bureaucrats you create. How will it affect

573
00:33:31,693 --> 00:33:34,213
Speaker 3: the services that I'm going to receive? How will it

574
00:33:34,333 --> 00:33:37,453
Speaker 3: change my experience of the health system. If I'm one

575
00:33:37,453 --> 00:33:40,653
Speaker 3: of my Mari relatives in Northland self medicating for mental health,

576
00:33:40,973 --> 00:33:42,933
Speaker 3: I know what he wants. He or she wants a

577
00:33:42,973 --> 00:33:45,213
Speaker 3: place to live in a job. So they'll be saying,

578
00:33:45,213 --> 00:33:47,213
Speaker 3: with all this money you're throwing into the system and

579
00:33:47,253 --> 00:33:50,733
Speaker 3: all these reforms, how will it help me find a

580
00:33:50,733 --> 00:33:53,813
Speaker 3: place to live and get a job. These reforms aren't

581
00:33:54,093 --> 00:33:58,253
Speaker 3: consumer centric, They aren't looking at the requirements of the user.

582
00:33:59,013 --> 00:34:01,733
Speaker 3: They are driven by bureaucrats you think can't think beyond

583
00:34:01,773 --> 00:34:02,693
Speaker 3: their immediate needs.

584
00:34:03,213 --> 00:34:05,893
Speaker 2: So how is your lung cancer treating you?

585
00:34:07,533 --> 00:34:10,213
Speaker 3: I've been lucky because of who I am and who

586
00:34:10,253 --> 00:34:14,173
Speaker 3: I know to be able to navigate the system, and

587
00:34:14,253 --> 00:34:18,173
Speaker 3: so I have been on the receiving end of some

588
00:34:18,333 --> 00:34:21,493
Speaker 3: excellent care. But I was seeing a patient the other

589
00:34:21,573 --> 00:34:25,413
Speaker 3: day myself, and I saw her because she was confused,

590
00:34:25,453 --> 00:34:28,373
Speaker 3: and that's one of my interests, that sort of confusion.

591
00:34:28,853 --> 00:34:31,693
Speaker 3: And she said, I'm going off for my follow up

592
00:34:31,893 --> 00:34:35,133
Speaker 3: CT scan for my breast cancer. So that's fantastic. And

593
00:34:35,173 --> 00:34:37,053
Speaker 3: I said, what did the first scan show? She said,

594
00:34:37,053 --> 00:34:41,213
Speaker 3: I never had it. She she is eighteen months, two

595
00:34:41,253 --> 00:34:43,893
Speaker 3: years down her cancer treatment, having a follow up scan

596
00:34:44,013 --> 00:34:47,773
Speaker 3: to see how her cancers responded to the treatment she's received,

597
00:34:48,053 --> 00:34:52,213
Speaker 3: and she never even had the first scan. So it

598
00:34:52,293 --> 00:34:54,493
Speaker 3: comes back to who you are, where you are, and

599
00:34:54,533 --> 00:34:58,013
Speaker 3: what you need want to expect. It's a very very

600
00:34:58,133 --> 00:35:00,093
Speaker 3: unevil and even playing field.

601
00:35:00,693 --> 00:35:02,893
Speaker 2: A lot of it must have to do with the

602
00:35:03,053 --> 00:35:08,013
Speaker 2: individuals involved. You've already mentioned their status, but their opinion

603
00:35:08,013 --> 00:35:10,733
Speaker 2: of them, their ability to think for themselves, to think

604
00:35:11,053 --> 00:35:14,933
Speaker 2: objectively and critically it set and know who they are

605
00:35:15,093 --> 00:35:17,493
Speaker 2: and what they're entitled to in their rights.

606
00:35:17,533 --> 00:35:21,733
Speaker 3: Are Oh, you're actually right. If your experience of healthcare

607
00:35:21,813 --> 00:35:24,773
Speaker 3: is that you have had almost an intent of health

608
00:35:24,813 --> 00:35:27,733
Speaker 3: system which has not metual needs and never has mental needs,

609
00:35:28,053 --> 00:35:29,653
Speaker 3: then why would you expect any different?

610
00:35:29,973 --> 00:35:31,733
Speaker 2: But that would be your attitude to everything in life

611
00:35:31,733 --> 00:35:33,453
Speaker 2: when it comes to bureaucracy in particular.

612
00:35:34,213 --> 00:35:36,413
Speaker 3: Look, I think bureaucracies have to earn their keep. They

613
00:35:36,493 --> 00:35:39,173
Speaker 3: have to show that they add value. I think the

614
00:35:39,213 --> 00:35:43,173
Speaker 3: most important were in healthcare or any other form of

615
00:35:43,213 --> 00:35:46,893
Speaker 3: social services. Value? What value do you add? Where is

616
00:35:46,893 --> 00:35:49,893
Speaker 3: the value propositioning here? How do you make things better?

617
00:35:49,933 --> 00:35:53,173
Speaker 3: How are you materially improving the experience? And again I

618
00:35:53,253 --> 00:35:56,213
Speaker 3: come back to those twin factors in healthcare which drive

619
00:35:56,293 --> 00:35:58,893
Speaker 3: all our thinking, which is cost in equity?

620
00:35:59,453 --> 00:36:01,573
Speaker 2: Is I going to say that having listened to some

621
00:36:01,693 --> 00:36:06,013
Speaker 2: of your comments in this interview with regard to structures

622
00:36:06,573 --> 00:36:09,813
Speaker 2: of committees and bodies and managem but etc. And politicians.

623
00:36:10,333 --> 00:36:13,373
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, actually, but you've responded already.

624
00:36:13,533 --> 00:36:15,573
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you whether you fear for

625
00:36:15,613 --> 00:36:18,213
Speaker 2: your safety whenever you enter the hallowed halls.

626
00:36:21,293 --> 00:36:23,933
Speaker 3: Some of the feedback I've had from some fellow academics

627
00:36:23,933 --> 00:36:27,293
Speaker 3: has been quite unpleasant, actually, and I think it's an

628
00:36:27,293 --> 00:36:31,573
Speaker 3: abrogation of the very thing which justifies why we have universities,

629
00:36:31,573 --> 00:36:36,533
Speaker 3: which is academic freedom, not from the senior hierarchy of

630
00:36:36,573 --> 00:36:39,133
Speaker 3: the university. I'm very impressed by the support I've had

631
00:36:39,133 --> 00:36:41,973
Speaker 3: from there, but from some of my fellow academics it

632
00:36:42,053 --> 00:36:46,373
Speaker 3: has been shameful. Universities don't exist for research. We can

633
00:36:46,413 --> 00:36:50,613
Speaker 3: do research cheaper and more efficiently outside universities. Universities don't

634
00:36:50,653 --> 00:36:54,053
Speaker 3: exist to teach people. There's more efficient ways of learning.

635
00:36:54,173 --> 00:36:57,533
Speaker 3: Universities exist as a large part because they are a

636
00:36:57,533 --> 00:37:01,213
Speaker 3: social conscience. Well, I'm not sure that we're actually fulfilling

637
00:37:01,213 --> 00:37:06,493
Speaker 3: that obligation anymore, particularly when in response to my decision

638
00:37:06,573 --> 00:37:10,653
Speaker 3: to speak out, the feedback I've had from so many

639
00:37:10,693 --> 00:37:15,773
Speaker 3: academics has been shamefully dismissive and saying you need to

640
00:37:15,773 --> 00:37:18,133
Speaker 3: pull your head in and not rock the boat and

641
00:37:18,253 --> 00:37:21,213
Speaker 3: you know, friends of government, not government, not any of

642
00:37:21,213 --> 00:37:23,573
Speaker 3: the cabinet ministers, but friends of government, and have got

643
00:37:23,573 --> 00:37:24,813
Speaker 3: hold of me to say, look, you're not going to

644
00:37:24,813 --> 00:37:27,573
Speaker 3: be appointed to any more committees. Well, let me tell

645
00:37:27,613 --> 00:37:30,133
Speaker 3: you I haven't lost any sleep about that. I think

646
00:37:30,173 --> 00:37:34,693
Speaker 3: your achievements to this point of your life speak for themselves.

647
00:37:35,013 --> 00:37:38,093
Speaker 3: And I'm stating the obvious. Let me go back to

648
00:37:38,733 --> 00:37:41,453
Speaker 3: something that you were saying, or things that you were

649
00:37:41,493 --> 00:37:44,133
Speaker 3: saying earlier on about the approach that was taken by

650
00:37:44,213 --> 00:37:48,013
Speaker 3: government caught with its pants down and didn't deal with

651
00:37:48,053 --> 00:37:50,293
Speaker 3: it and still isn't dealing with it well enough, and

652
00:37:50,333 --> 00:37:54,653
Speaker 3: it's all political. Can you suggest any other government or

653
00:37:54,733 --> 00:37:59,253
Speaker 3: possible government that you believe would have responded better? In

654
00:37:59,293 --> 00:38:01,773
Speaker 3: other words, aren't they all in the same boat? The

655
00:38:01,933 --> 00:38:04,653
Speaker 3: users know there are some Again, if you take the

656
00:38:04,653 --> 00:38:07,013
Speaker 3: post of child, which is Taiwan.

657
00:38:07,893 --> 00:38:09,933
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I mean here in New Zealand.

658
00:38:10,253 --> 00:38:12,453
Speaker 3: Yes, I know, I know, you mean. Okay, if you

659
00:38:12,533 --> 00:38:17,733
Speaker 3: take a post the childlike Taiwan five times our population,

660
00:38:18,053 --> 00:38:21,373
Speaker 3: we've had three times as many cases, four times as

661
00:38:21,373 --> 00:38:24,213
Speaker 3: many deaths, and they've had no lockdowns. How did they

662
00:38:24,293 --> 00:38:27,173
Speaker 3: do that? Well, they created a pandemic governance group and

663
00:38:27,213 --> 00:38:30,813
Speaker 3: a management group which stood at arm's length from government.

664
00:38:31,493 --> 00:38:34,413
Speaker 3: I actually don't think the problem in governance is because

665
00:38:34,413 --> 00:38:37,253
Speaker 3: of the skill set that the current government has or

666
00:38:37,293 --> 00:38:40,253
Speaker 3: doesn't have. It's the fact that they've actually assumed they

667
00:38:40,253 --> 00:38:42,853
Speaker 3: can take on a governance role. Well, we don't do

668
00:38:42,933 --> 00:38:45,253
Speaker 3: that for the Reserve Bank, we don't do that for

669
00:38:45,413 --> 00:38:49,013
Speaker 3: acc us on the acc board for several terms. They

670
00:38:49,053 --> 00:38:52,853
Speaker 3: don't do that for the super Fund. I mean, when

671
00:38:52,853 --> 00:38:57,293
Speaker 3: we have a very complex organization, no one pretends that

672
00:38:57,373 --> 00:39:01,093
Speaker 3: politicians are capable of providing the necessary governance. What they

673
00:39:01,133 --> 00:39:03,933
Speaker 3: do as they go along to a board of professional

674
00:39:03,973 --> 00:39:07,253
Speaker 3: governors and say, these are our expectations, this is what

675
00:39:07,293 --> 00:39:09,213
Speaker 3: we want to see from you, So this is how

676
00:39:09,293 --> 00:39:11,453
Speaker 3: the sort of relationship we want to have. Then they

677
00:39:11,493 --> 00:39:13,613
Speaker 3: get out of the way and allow professional governors to

678
00:39:13,613 --> 00:39:16,053
Speaker 3: get on with the job of governance. And that's what

679
00:39:16,093 --> 00:39:18,093
Speaker 3: was exactly what's needed here. It's not a matter of

680
00:39:18,093 --> 00:39:22,333
Speaker 3: whether a blue or a blue, yellow or green government

681
00:39:22,333 --> 00:39:24,933
Speaker 3: would have done any better. Is the fact that what

682
00:39:25,133 --> 00:39:28,453
Speaker 3: was required was the courage from government to say we're

683
00:39:28,493 --> 00:39:31,493
Speaker 3: not going to seek political capital from this, We're not

684
00:39:31,613 --> 00:39:34,093
Speaker 3: going to seek the limelight from this. What we're going

685
00:39:34,133 --> 00:39:37,693
Speaker 3: to do is create a professional Governance group, and we're

686
00:39:37,693 --> 00:39:40,413
Speaker 3: going to stand up a professional management group too, which

687
00:39:40,493 --> 00:39:43,933
Speaker 3: unashamably picks the talent out of both the private and

688
00:39:43,973 --> 00:39:47,213
Speaker 3: the public sector. And what we've had instead is, you know,

689
00:39:47,413 --> 00:39:51,373
Speaker 3: from the very good report that Heather Simpson and Brian

690
00:39:51,453 --> 00:39:54,733
Speaker 3: Roach gave government in September, which wasn't released until the

691
00:39:55,173 --> 00:39:58,693
Speaker 3: Friday before Christmas, is that the Ministry has a sidiously

692
00:39:58,813 --> 00:40:02,493
Speaker 3: avoided any form of advice from outside and even from

693
00:40:02,533 --> 00:40:04,773
Speaker 3: other parts of government. So we've actually gone the other

694
00:40:04,813 --> 00:40:09,133
Speaker 3: way around. We've created a Wellington bubble which presumes it's actually.

695
00:40:08,813 --> 00:40:11,333
Speaker 2: Competent and thinks it is believes it is.

696
00:40:12,493 --> 00:40:14,453
Speaker 3: I think if you keep telling yourself how good you are,

697
00:40:14,493 --> 00:40:17,613
Speaker 3: eventually you begin to believe it yourself. Now having said that,

698
00:40:17,693 --> 00:40:20,253
Speaker 3: it's hard to imagine that anyone in that Wellington bubble

699
00:40:20,253 --> 00:40:24,093
Speaker 3: could seriously believe that it's contact tracing is good enough.

700
00:40:24,133 --> 00:40:27,253
Speaker 3: I mean, the reason why I believe we have reluctance

701
00:40:27,293 --> 00:40:29,413
Speaker 3: about a bubble with Australia as first of all the

702
00:40:29,413 --> 00:40:32,133
Speaker 3: issues of people being stranded. But I think the real

703
00:40:32,173 --> 00:40:36,133
Speaker 3: concern we have is that we can't contact trace. As

704
00:40:36,173 --> 00:40:37,693
Speaker 3: I said, to you before. If you look at that

705
00:40:37,773 --> 00:40:40,733
Speaker 3: four day measure of how many people in four days

706
00:40:40,773 --> 00:40:44,813
Speaker 3: who have you identified, contacted, tested and dealt with, we

707
00:40:44,853 --> 00:40:47,293
Speaker 3: should be, in my view, well over ninety five percent

708
00:40:47,853 --> 00:40:52,493
Speaker 3: where we're running. During the cold Store outbreak of last

709
00:40:52,573 --> 00:40:56,053
Speaker 3: year we ran thirty seven percent. That we got up

710
00:40:56,093 --> 00:40:58,613
Speaker 3: to fifty three percent during the North and outbreak it

711
00:40:58,653 --> 00:41:02,373
Speaker 3: was fifty two. During the Papatoto outbreak it was fifty two.

712
00:41:02,813 --> 00:41:06,853
Speaker 3: We're not even remotely close. And yet I keep hearing

713
00:41:06,893 --> 00:41:09,893
Speaker 3: from the Wellington bubble that is gold standard. Well, I

714
00:41:10,173 --> 00:41:13,173
Speaker 3: can say that's gold standard. Whoa behold us if we

715
00:41:13,213 --> 00:41:14,573
Speaker 3: ever go to Bronze.

716
00:41:15,013 --> 00:41:17,973
Speaker 2: Well, if you keep kidding yourself, you eventually believe it.

717
00:41:18,493 --> 00:41:22,653
Speaker 2: You've been indicating I'm intrigued about your your cousins up north.

718
00:41:23,453 --> 00:41:27,493
Speaker 2: You your father was came from I've forgotten where now,

719
00:41:27,493 --> 00:41:29,133
Speaker 2: but he was from Europe somewhere.

720
00:41:29,053 --> 00:41:33,053
Speaker 3: No Australia, who's far north Queensland And he was shot

721
00:41:33,093 --> 00:41:39,813
Speaker 3: by the Japanese in Bogainville and was disabled as a consequence.

722
00:41:40,653 --> 00:41:43,213
Speaker 3: Interesting story. The only job he could get in Australia

723
00:41:43,253 --> 00:41:46,733
Speaker 3: as a disabled serviceman was in an asbestos factory. And

724
00:41:46,813 --> 00:41:51,133
Speaker 3: that's eventually what killed him. Isn't that a bit of irony?

725
00:41:50,933 --> 00:41:56,213
Speaker 3: He met my mother in Sydney and her family members

726
00:41:56,453 --> 00:41:59,253
Speaker 3: here in New Zealand were able to organize work for

727
00:41:59,333 --> 00:42:02,413
Speaker 3: him at Hallaby's when the freezing works, and so there

728
00:42:02,453 --> 00:42:04,773
Speaker 3: was back in the days when the railroad workshops, the

729
00:42:04,813 --> 00:42:08,093
Speaker 3: freezing works, the wolves and so on actually create, not

730
00:42:08,413 --> 00:42:12,693
Speaker 3: created jobs, but they actively employed disabled or handicapped, either

731
00:42:12,733 --> 00:42:16,013
Speaker 3: handic if not word challenged people and provided them with

732
00:42:16,053 --> 00:42:16,893
Speaker 3: dignity of work.

733
00:42:17,853 --> 00:42:22,733
Speaker 2: Your mother was quarter marry, yes, and she was a nurse.

734
00:42:23,493 --> 00:42:29,813
Speaker 3: Yes. And I think her grandmother, who was fully Marie

735
00:42:31,973 --> 00:42:34,653
Speaker 3: by genealogy, I think she was one of the very

736
00:42:34,693 --> 00:42:37,373
Speaker 3: first women ever, first married woman ever to train as

737
00:42:37,373 --> 00:42:37,813
Speaker 3: a nurse.

738
00:42:38,373 --> 00:42:41,333
Speaker 2: So you you came from a poor family, you ended

739
00:42:41,373 --> 00:42:44,893
Speaker 2: up being ducks of college, and you went from there.

740
00:42:45,013 --> 00:42:48,893
Speaker 2: And I was not stunned. I just intrigued that the

741
00:42:48,933 --> 00:42:51,493
Speaker 2: first time you ever went into a library was when

742
00:42:51,533 --> 00:42:52,773
Speaker 2: you went to university.

743
00:42:53,573 --> 00:42:56,533
Speaker 3: Yes. Well, in fact, I remember it was very funny

744
00:42:56,613 --> 00:43:01,053
Speaker 3: late in retrospect that I went to it. Nineteen seventy one,

745
00:43:01,093 --> 00:43:04,453
Speaker 3: I went to an interview at Auckland Medical School. I'd

746
00:43:04,453 --> 00:43:07,213
Speaker 3: never heard of the place, I'd never been to a

747
00:43:07,253 --> 00:43:11,053
Speaker 3: careers advisor. I was on my way I think to

748
00:43:11,133 --> 00:43:13,133
Speaker 3: Rugby practice with a friend who has stopped off, and

749
00:43:13,173 --> 00:43:14,373
Speaker 3: I said, what are you doing? So I'm getting an

750
00:43:14,373 --> 00:43:17,333
Speaker 3: application form for Auckland Medical School and saw a grab

751
00:43:17,373 --> 00:43:20,213
Speaker 3: one for me. I'd never heard it, and so it

752
00:43:20,253 --> 00:43:22,773
Speaker 3: came as a surprise, and I was invited to an interview.

753
00:43:23,413 --> 00:43:26,653
Speaker 3: And I remember one of my interviewers was Felix Donnelly,

754
00:43:26,693 --> 00:43:29,613
Speaker 3: the Catholic priest, who said to me which New Zealand

755
00:43:29,733 --> 00:43:32,613
Speaker 3: artist that I think had made the greatest contribution to

756
00:43:32,653 --> 00:43:35,053
Speaker 3: New Zealand society. And I can tell you, except you

757
00:43:35,133 --> 00:43:36,933
Speaker 3: what I thought. I thought, bargain me New Zealand's got

758
00:43:37,013 --> 00:43:42,853
Speaker 3: artists I had. I had no idea. Years later I

759
00:43:42,853 --> 00:43:46,373
Speaker 3: told him to understand that question was profoundly classist, don't you.

760
00:43:46,373 --> 00:43:48,693
Speaker 3: You might have been looking to see how broadened and

761
00:43:48,773 --> 00:43:52,253
Speaker 3: enlightened these candidates were, but for someone from my background,

762
00:43:52,333 --> 00:43:55,093
Speaker 3: that was just absolute classism. No. I'd never been into

763
00:43:55,093 --> 00:43:56,613
Speaker 3: a library until I went to university.

764
00:43:57,093 --> 00:44:01,733
Speaker 2: I had the privilege of meeting on two occasions, interviewing

765
00:44:01,733 --> 00:44:04,573
Speaker 2: on two occasions, dining with on one occasion, and sharing

766
00:44:04,573 --> 00:44:07,133
Speaker 2: a stage with on a separate occasion a fellow called

767
00:44:07,173 --> 00:44:11,973
Speaker 2: Ben Carson, and he impressed me on multiple fronts. At

768
00:44:11,973 --> 00:44:17,573
Speaker 2: that stage, he was thinking of running for the presidency,

769
00:44:17,773 --> 00:44:20,333
Speaker 2: and I said, well, if I'm coming to the inauguration,

770
00:44:20,453 --> 00:44:23,573
Speaker 2: he said, okay. I never made the trip, obviously, but

771
00:44:23,733 --> 00:44:27,253
Speaker 2: the point being that his mother was his inspiration, both

772
00:44:27,613 --> 00:44:30,613
Speaker 2: him and his brother. She was if you don't know

773
00:44:30,653 --> 00:44:33,413
Speaker 2: the story, very quickly. She was a solo mother. The

774
00:44:33,453 --> 00:44:37,893
Speaker 2: father was a drunken left She couldn't read, but fooled

775
00:44:37,933 --> 00:44:39,813
Speaker 2: them into thinking she was reading, so that they had

776
00:44:39,813 --> 00:44:43,693
Speaker 2: to submit her to her their homework and she would

777
00:44:43,693 --> 00:44:46,053
Speaker 2: look at it. And they didn't find this out for

778
00:44:46,413 --> 00:44:51,853
Speaker 2: some considerable time. And it was her attitude, her authority,

779
00:44:52,053 --> 00:44:55,773
Speaker 2: her discipline that she imposed on them, and Ben Carson

780
00:44:55,893 --> 00:44:57,653
Speaker 2: was ready to go down the drain according to his

781
00:44:57,693 --> 00:45:01,053
Speaker 2: school report at the time. That made all the difference.

782
00:45:01,373 --> 00:45:03,653
Speaker 2: So that was all a long lead in to say,

783
00:45:03,933 --> 00:45:06,013
Speaker 2: where did your inspiration come from?

784
00:45:06,773 --> 00:45:11,293
Speaker 3: Yes, I think people of my grandmother's generation, who was

785
00:45:11,333 --> 00:45:14,333
Speaker 3: a beautiful mari woman, and people of my mother's generation.

786
00:45:15,253 --> 00:45:18,893
Speaker 3: The downside was that they were determined we'd be more

787
00:45:18,933 --> 00:45:21,813
Speaker 3: parky hard than the parky cars, and me having fair

788
00:45:21,853 --> 00:45:24,533
Speaker 3: hair and blue eyes. I was always considered a favorite

789
00:45:24,573 --> 00:45:27,253
Speaker 3: because I remember my grandmother saying to me, they'll never

790
00:45:27,293 --> 00:45:29,693
Speaker 3: know where you came from. So I think the downside

791
00:45:29,813 --> 00:45:34,373
Speaker 3: was that there was a determination to as I say,

792
00:45:34,373 --> 00:45:37,173
Speaker 3: it'd be more Parky hard than the Parkias, and to

793
00:45:37,213 --> 00:45:41,573
Speaker 3: deny our mari ancestry. That's the downside. The upside, though,

794
00:45:41,773 --> 00:45:47,373
Speaker 3: was that that generation of women had a fierce determination

795
00:45:47,493 --> 00:45:52,013
Speaker 3: that their children would be well educated. And my mother

796
00:45:52,093 --> 00:45:56,333
Speaker 3: worked both day and night shifts, and dad worked over time,

797
00:45:56,813 --> 00:45:59,373
Speaker 3: especially could it the freezing works to generate enough money,

798
00:45:59,453 --> 00:46:01,853
Speaker 3: so that the one thing that was never compromised in

799
00:46:01,893 --> 00:46:05,213
Speaker 3: our household was education. We didn't have much, and we

800
00:46:05,253 --> 00:46:08,893
Speaker 3: didn't expect much, but there was never any compromise of education.

801
00:46:09,013 --> 00:46:12,293
Speaker 3: So I think there was this fierce desire to do

802
00:46:12,373 --> 00:46:15,733
Speaker 3: better through education. And it's hard not to grow up

803
00:46:15,773 --> 00:46:18,093
Speaker 3: in a household like that and not be instilled with

804
00:46:18,173 --> 00:46:22,973
Speaker 3: that same sense of determination. And certainly in my time,

805
00:46:24,413 --> 00:46:28,773
Speaker 3: social mobility in New Zealand was certainly aided by education,

806
00:46:29,453 --> 00:46:32,413
Speaker 3: and I think it was more of a meritocracy. I

807
00:46:32,493 --> 00:46:37,853
Speaker 3: think now we're seeing both education and health in breach.

808
00:46:37,893 --> 00:46:42,773
Speaker 3: In other words, I think our birthright of universal education

809
00:46:42,853 --> 00:46:46,733
Speaker 3: and our birthright of universal health care both in breach,

810
00:46:46,773 --> 00:46:49,733
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure that we have the same level

811
00:46:49,773 --> 00:46:52,333
Speaker 3: playing field or meritocracy we had which enabled me.

812
00:46:53,333 --> 00:46:58,613
Speaker 2: Then you know the next question, don't you? How am I?

813
00:46:58,613 --> 00:47:04,733
Speaker 3: I think the failure of a whole range of socially

814
00:47:04,733 --> 00:47:11,333
Speaker 3: well intentioned reforms of education have actually created dumbing down

815
00:47:11,373 --> 00:47:16,013
Speaker 3: of the education process. And I think, look, I don't

816
00:47:16,013 --> 00:47:20,013
Speaker 3: believe that rampant competition is the answer, but there has

817
00:47:20,133 --> 00:47:24,373
Speaker 3: to be some sort of stimulation to do better. And

818
00:47:24,413 --> 00:47:27,173
Speaker 3: one of the greatest stimuli to do better is competition

819
00:47:28,213 --> 00:47:32,253
Speaker 3: that has to be managed. But to take achievement out

820
00:47:32,253 --> 00:47:37,413
Speaker 3: of the educational framework, to have open plan classes, and

821
00:47:38,213 --> 00:47:41,133
Speaker 3: to walk away from some of the if you like,

822
00:47:41,293 --> 00:47:46,133
Speaker 3: fundamental building blocks of logic, many of which are mathematical,

823
00:47:46,173 --> 00:47:49,813
Speaker 3: of course, means that we have one child and five

824
00:47:49,933 --> 00:47:54,213
Speaker 3: leaving school now who's essentially illiterate and enumerate. And what

825
00:47:54,333 --> 00:48:00,213
Speaker 3: worries me is how quickly many communities have lost that

826
00:48:00,413 --> 00:48:04,853
Speaker 3: fierce drive for education. I was talking to an education

827
00:48:04,933 --> 00:48:09,413
Speaker 3: outreach person in Northland, because I oversee the Ministry of

828
00:48:09,453 --> 00:48:13,213
Speaker 3: Social Development's health interventions in Northland, or some of them,

829
00:48:13,733 --> 00:48:16,253
Speaker 3: and I remember talking this education outreach person and they

830
00:48:16,253 --> 00:48:18,453
Speaker 3: went to talk to this forteen year old girl who

831
00:48:18,453 --> 00:48:21,613
Speaker 3: had suddenly dropped out of school and she was living

832
00:48:21,613 --> 00:48:25,413
Speaker 3: her living with her boyfriend in a trailer in the

833
00:48:25,453 --> 00:48:30,013
Speaker 3: back of their property, which of course constitutes statutory rape,

834
00:48:30,013 --> 00:48:32,413
Speaker 3: of course, and they said to the parents, look, this

835
00:48:32,533 --> 00:48:35,893
Speaker 3: kid's so bright, how do we encourage her to come

836
00:48:35,933 --> 00:48:38,053
Speaker 3: back to school? And the response when the parents was

837
00:48:38,493 --> 00:48:40,933
Speaker 3: well we didn't need to know education, why should she

838
00:48:41,693 --> 00:48:45,533
Speaker 3: And the education outreach person just drove away saying well,

839
00:48:45,573 --> 00:48:48,533
Speaker 3: where do you start? Where do you start when you've

840
00:48:48,533 --> 00:48:52,373
Speaker 3: had that sort of cultural shift. But I actually think

841
00:48:52,493 --> 00:48:57,693
Speaker 3: the origins of it are completely ideologically driven and very

842
00:48:57,773 --> 00:49:02,453
Speaker 3: misplaced reforms of education. In the case of healthcare laden

843
00:49:02,773 --> 00:49:05,213
Speaker 3: it's not been fit for purpose since nineteen thirty eight.

844
00:49:05,853 --> 00:49:08,973
Speaker 2: I can only say, wow, welfare has had a that though,

845
00:49:09,013 --> 00:49:09,373
Speaker 2: has it not?

846
00:49:10,133 --> 00:49:12,533
Speaker 3: Yes, it has. I was on the Welfare working group,

847
00:49:13,573 --> 00:49:18,453
Speaker 3: which was superbly chaired by Porler Rebstock, and I sat

848
00:49:18,493 --> 00:49:21,693
Speaker 3: there late in asking myself what does it mean to

849
00:49:21,733 --> 00:49:23,093
Speaker 3: be in New Zealand. It has to be more than

850
00:49:23,213 --> 00:49:25,973
Speaker 3: just a fascination of the all blacks. It has to

851
00:49:26,013 --> 00:49:28,453
Speaker 3: be more than just you know, and you get to

852
00:49:28,453 --> 00:49:31,333
Speaker 3: get past our inferiority complex and how do you like us?

853
00:49:31,373 --> 00:49:33,493
Speaker 3: And how are you're having a good time? And the

854
00:49:33,533 --> 00:49:35,933
Speaker 3: way in which we view ourselves, and I thought, well,

855
00:49:36,293 --> 00:49:38,613
Speaker 3: what is it that makes us New Zealanders? And we

856
00:49:38,693 --> 00:49:42,093
Speaker 3: kept having people coming to the welfare working groups saying

857
00:49:42,493 --> 00:49:45,573
Speaker 3: the fundamental basis of New Zealand is social warefrom I

858
00:49:45,573 --> 00:49:48,813
Speaker 3: thought that can't be right. No society can exist where

859
00:49:48,813 --> 00:49:53,173
Speaker 3: the cornerstone is welfare. Yes, we need a welfare system

860
00:49:53,533 --> 00:49:56,013
Speaker 3: to protect people who fall out of the system, but

861
00:49:56,093 --> 00:50:00,493
Speaker 3: surely our central social contractors work. What binds us together

862
00:50:00,533 --> 00:50:04,333
Speaker 3: as a society is work. Some of it's directly contributed,

863
00:50:04,373 --> 00:50:07,013
Speaker 3: some of it indirectly contributes, some of it's paid, some

864
00:50:07,093 --> 00:50:11,293
Speaker 3: of it's unpaid. But social contract is work and that

865
00:50:11,413 --> 00:50:15,733
Speaker 3: in return for that work, we have some expectations. We

866
00:50:15,933 --> 00:50:19,893
Speaker 3: expectations for services and security. We have expectations that there

867
00:50:19,933 --> 00:50:24,173
Speaker 3: will be some net to actually protect people who fall

868
00:50:24,213 --> 00:50:26,333
Speaker 3: out of that social contract. And I think we assume

869
00:50:26,373 --> 00:50:32,413
Speaker 3: some birthrights like health and education. So our welfare system's

870
00:50:32,493 --> 00:50:34,813
Speaker 3: gone from eighty odd years ago where it was seen

871
00:50:34,853 --> 00:50:38,053
Speaker 3: as a safety net to a work act, to now

872
00:50:38,133 --> 00:50:40,333
Speaker 3: being a very deep pit that I don't think people

873
00:50:40,373 --> 00:50:43,013
Speaker 3: ever emerge from. And if you look at some of

874
00:50:43,053 --> 00:50:46,533
Speaker 3: the statistics that terrified me, which is, if someone during

875
00:50:46,533 --> 00:50:49,453
Speaker 3: their adolescence goes on to welfare, the likelihood they'll ever

876
00:50:51,213 --> 00:50:53,253
Speaker 3: leave what welfare is very low, and that sort of

877
00:50:53,293 --> 00:50:56,453
Speaker 3: thing terrifies me. I think it's gone from being an

878
00:50:56,613 --> 00:51:02,573
Speaker 3: enabling protection to being a disabling social phenomenon, which is crippling.

879
00:51:03,333 --> 00:51:07,893
Speaker 2: I formulated an opinion some long time ago, and I

880
00:51:07,973 --> 00:51:13,333
Speaker 2: think I think it was partly induced by a social

881
00:51:13,373 --> 00:51:17,373
Speaker 2: conscience of some kind. I can't describe it anymore any

882
00:51:17,413 --> 00:51:20,253
Speaker 2: better than that, but I came to the conclusion that

883
00:51:20,693 --> 00:51:23,773
Speaker 2: essentially there wasn't a race people on earth who couldn't

884
00:51:23,813 --> 00:51:28,413
Speaker 2: achieve things, or individuals from those races couldn't achieve things

885
00:51:28,893 --> 00:51:31,733
Speaker 2: if they were put in the right position to do so.

886
00:51:32,733 --> 00:51:33,253
Speaker 2: Am I wrong?

887
00:51:33,973 --> 00:51:36,773
Speaker 3: No? I think you're right. If you think about our

888
00:51:36,813 --> 00:51:42,733
Speaker 3: history as a species, it's probable that we displace Neanderthal,

889
00:51:42,773 --> 00:51:45,253
Speaker 3: who was stronger than us and smarter than us, and

890
00:51:45,333 --> 00:51:49,293
Speaker 3: we did that because we had a far better social

891
00:51:49,333 --> 00:51:54,533
Speaker 3: construct and that as a species we operate socially extremely well,

892
00:51:55,053 --> 00:51:57,733
Speaker 3: and that when our societies are strong, we are as

893
00:51:57,813 --> 00:52:03,373
Speaker 3: individuals are strong, and that constructive societies have achieved most

894
00:52:03,413 --> 00:52:09,293
Speaker 3: extraordinary things. And the opposite's true too. When our society

895
00:52:09,333 --> 00:52:12,613
Speaker 3: is are corrupted and and evil, then in fact we've

896
00:52:12,773 --> 00:52:16,173
Speaker 3: also achieved things which are vile.

897
00:52:17,133 --> 00:52:19,693
Speaker 2: But it seems inevitable that we achieve things, and we

898
00:52:20,893 --> 00:52:25,413
Speaker 2: raise our societies to a level, and there's no set predetermination,

899
00:52:25,493 --> 00:52:28,213
Speaker 2: but we get to a level, and then we undermine ourselves.

900
00:52:29,133 --> 00:52:31,613
Speaker 3: Yes, if you look at the great referring to the

901
00:52:31,653 --> 00:52:37,933
Speaker 3: great empires of our history, they have all corrupted. They

902
00:52:37,933 --> 00:52:41,573
Speaker 3: have corrupted essentially politically, using the word politically in its

903
00:52:41,613 --> 00:52:46,333
Speaker 3: broadest possible context. And the obviously the challenge is how

904
00:52:46,333 --> 00:52:49,573
Speaker 3: do you reinvigorate a society, How do you bring forward

905
00:52:49,613 --> 00:52:55,213
Speaker 3: fresh ideas, how do you avoid complacency? How do you

906
00:52:55,773 --> 00:52:59,213
Speaker 3: develop a culture of perpetual learning as compared to one

907
00:52:59,253 --> 00:53:01,813
Speaker 3: of we're the best in show in the enview of

908
00:53:01,893 --> 00:53:04,733
Speaker 3: the world. And you can understand then why I've taken

909
00:53:04,773 --> 00:53:08,693
Speaker 3: such exception to the cultures I've seen manifest during our

910
00:53:08,693 --> 00:53:12,213
Speaker 3: COVID pandemic, because to me, they represent the seeds of

911
00:53:12,213 --> 00:53:16,013
Speaker 3: how humans undo themselves. Can you expand on that, yes,

912
00:53:16,053 --> 00:53:19,573
Speaker 3: I can. I think most societies corrupt when they become

913
00:53:19,613 --> 00:53:23,573
Speaker 3: politicized when they become complacent, when they actually move away

914
00:53:23,653 --> 00:53:27,613
Speaker 3: from learning where they don't accept new and novel ways

915
00:53:27,653 --> 00:53:31,773
Speaker 3: of doing things. And I think also when they start

916
00:53:32,333 --> 00:53:36,813
Speaker 3: changing facts to fit their particular perspective of the planet.

917
00:53:37,253 --> 00:53:40,493
Speaker 3: And I think those are sorts of sapiens traits, which

918
00:53:40,533 --> 00:53:43,413
Speaker 3: whenever we see them, we should identify them and do

919
00:53:43,453 --> 00:53:46,373
Speaker 3: our best to move in the opposite direction. So that's

920
00:53:46,413 --> 00:53:48,893
Speaker 3: the reason why I've taken the strong stance I have

921
00:53:49,013 --> 00:53:51,893
Speaker 3: about the culture that's been adopted for this pandemic. It

922
00:53:52,573 --> 00:53:56,173
Speaker 3: represents the various seeds I say, on the very things

923
00:53:56,213 --> 00:53:58,493
Speaker 3: which lead I think to human devolution.

924
00:53:59,333 --> 00:54:04,573
Speaker 2: I sent you an article about an hour before we recorded,

925
00:54:05,533 --> 00:54:08,253
Speaker 2: and we haven't spoken about it since apart from the

926
00:54:08,213 --> 00:54:11,573
Speaker 2: say that you had to look at it. Yes, and

927
00:54:11,653 --> 00:54:15,293
Speaker 2: I want it quote from the opening of it, God sad.

928
00:54:15,573 --> 00:54:17,493
Speaker 2: I don't know whether that's the way it's pronounced. GA

929
00:54:17,493 --> 00:54:21,853
Speaker 2: double d SA, sorry G double ad S double ad.

930
00:54:22,533 --> 00:54:26,253
Speaker 2: A psychologist who specializes in applying evolutionary biology to the

931
00:54:26,253 --> 00:54:29,213
Speaker 2: study of consumer behavior, has written a book of great

932
00:54:29,253 --> 00:54:32,893
Speaker 2: value and moreover, it's a book that required great courage

933
00:54:32,933 --> 00:54:35,573
Speaker 2: to write. The book is filled with interesting ideas, and

934
00:54:35,613 --> 00:54:37,453
Speaker 2: I have space here to mention only a few of them,

935
00:54:37,453 --> 00:54:40,493
Speaker 2: says the author. What draws me most to the book

936
00:54:40,733 --> 00:54:43,773
Speaker 2: is that Sad has a philosophical turn of mind, and

937
00:54:43,813 --> 00:54:47,813
Speaker 2: as such he is concerned with fashionable attempts to deny

938
00:54:47,893 --> 00:54:51,973
Speaker 2: the existence of objective truths. And that's as far as

939
00:54:52,013 --> 00:54:55,253
Speaker 2: I'm going to take it. You want to comment on that.

940
00:54:55,893 --> 00:54:58,453
Speaker 3: Oh, look, I agree, and I share his concern. I

941
00:54:58,453 --> 00:55:02,973
Speaker 3: don't have a singular view on the way in which

942
00:55:03,013 --> 00:55:06,453
Speaker 3: we behave. I am a very big fan of behaviorism,

943
00:55:06,493 --> 00:55:10,013
Speaker 3: which of course doesn't necessary rarely seek to understand why,

944
00:55:10,013 --> 00:55:13,533
Speaker 3: but just describes how we behave. I believe there are

945
00:55:13,533 --> 00:55:16,773
Speaker 3: some things which can only be explained in evolutionary terms.

946
00:55:17,253 --> 00:55:19,253
Speaker 3: For example, some of the ways in which our brain

947
00:55:19,693 --> 00:55:24,853
Speaker 3: responds to trauma very clearly is evolutionary. And the reason

948
00:55:24,893 --> 00:55:26,653
Speaker 3: why I say that is that you see exactly the

949
00:55:26,693 --> 00:55:31,813
Speaker 3: same responses in very dissimilar cultures with profoundly different health metaphors.

950
00:55:33,173 --> 00:55:36,013
Speaker 3: I think we now live in a world where, if

951
00:55:36,053 --> 00:55:39,613
Speaker 3: you know to use the cliche, styles becoming more important

952
00:55:39,773 --> 00:55:44,933
Speaker 3: than substance. We live in a world where my well established,

953
00:55:45,173 --> 00:55:50,573
Speaker 3: reasonably scientifically robust factors inferior to your ill conceived opinion.

954
00:55:50,573 --> 00:55:54,533
Speaker 3: If you have more followers than me. I think we're

955
00:55:54,613 --> 00:55:59,933
Speaker 3: using reductionists thinking, and I think we're using we're revising

956
00:56:00,213 --> 00:56:04,013
Speaker 3: history to explain particular political points of.

957
00:56:03,973 --> 00:56:06,893
Speaker 2: View, and all of that is detrimental to the future.

958
00:56:07,893 --> 00:56:10,853
Speaker 3: All of that leads to a corruption of free thought.

959
00:56:11,613 --> 00:56:14,333
Speaker 3: All of that leads to the opposite of what I seek.

960
00:56:15,613 --> 00:56:17,573
Speaker 3: What do I want to see in the way we

961
00:56:17,653 --> 00:56:21,013
Speaker 3: behave as a society, a perpetual search for doing better?

962
00:56:21,093 --> 00:56:23,773
Speaker 3: How can I do better tomorrow than I did yesterday?

963
00:56:23,773 --> 00:56:25,373
Speaker 3: How can I do better next week than I did

964
00:56:25,453 --> 00:56:29,573
Speaker 3: last week? And the requirement of us as individuals and

965
00:56:29,613 --> 00:56:32,093
Speaker 3: as a society to achieve that is that we have

966
00:56:32,093 --> 00:56:35,333
Speaker 3: an open mind and we actively engage with new ideas.

967
00:56:35,973 --> 00:56:39,053
Speaker 2: Then you've partly answered this question over the course of

968
00:56:39,093 --> 00:56:45,493
Speaker 2: the conversation, but specifically the West's crisis of academic freedom.

969
00:56:45,893 --> 00:56:46,613
Speaker 2: How bad is it?

970
00:56:47,893 --> 00:56:50,773
Speaker 3: I think it's got to the point now where it's

971
00:56:50,853 --> 00:56:57,933
Speaker 3: become crippling. I think, using another cliche, political correctness. While

972
00:56:58,013 --> 00:57:03,253
Speaker 3: I understand that hate speech is unacceptable, while I understand

973
00:57:03,893 --> 00:57:11,573
Speaker 3: that derogatory racism, for exace, is also factible, the basic

974
00:57:11,693 --> 00:57:15,453
Speaker 3: principles of freedom of speech are just that freedom of speech,

975
00:57:15,933 --> 00:57:21,173
Speaker 3: freedom of thought, freedom of and so that doesn't mean

976
00:57:21,213 --> 00:57:25,773
Speaker 3: that I should have been able to push theories for

977
00:57:25,773 --> 00:57:28,493
Speaker 3: which I have no evidence or no support other than

978
00:57:29,013 --> 00:57:31,333
Speaker 3: my own prejudices. I should have to defend my thoughts

979
00:57:31,333 --> 00:57:35,933
Speaker 3: and should have to defend them to a very critical audience.

980
00:57:36,813 --> 00:57:40,293
Speaker 3: But nevertheless, I still think the environment must exist where

981
00:57:40,293 --> 00:57:42,573
Speaker 3: we are able to express our points of view. And

982
00:57:42,613 --> 00:57:44,973
Speaker 3: that's the reason why when I look at the last year,

983
00:57:45,093 --> 00:57:49,493
Speaker 3: I'm so sad that the negative commentaries I've had have

984
00:57:49,533 --> 00:57:53,253
Speaker 3: been from fellow academics who have been prepared to sacrifice

985
00:57:53,253 --> 00:57:56,533
Speaker 3: that freedom of thought so quickly, and why I was

986
00:57:57,013 --> 00:58:01,093
Speaker 3: absolutely delighted to see the response from the senior members

987
00:58:01,133 --> 00:58:06,573
Speaker 3: of my university supporting that my willingness to speak out.

988
00:58:06,693 --> 00:58:13,333
Speaker 3: So I I find constraint of thought through socially determined

989
00:58:13,373 --> 00:58:17,093
Speaker 3: parameters and what's right and what's wrong abhorrent.

990
00:58:17,093 --> 00:58:18,613
Speaker 2: Then there's a lot of abhorrence about.

991
00:58:19,373 --> 00:58:23,413
Speaker 3: Yes, there's a lot of I mean, I forget who

992
00:58:23,453 --> 00:58:25,733
Speaker 3: said it late and I have said a long time ago,

993
00:58:25,893 --> 00:58:31,493
Speaker 3: but that expression about when you haven't really changed what

994
00:58:31,693 --> 00:58:34,013
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, you just simply credit an environment where I'm

995
00:58:34,053 --> 00:58:37,093
Speaker 3: not prepared to express my thoughts. I'm not sure that's

996
00:58:37,133 --> 00:58:41,533
Speaker 3: a healthy environment. No it's not, and it's spreading rapidly.

997
00:58:42,093 --> 00:58:46,613
Speaker 3: You mentioned political correctness sort of emerged. The beginning of

998
00:58:46,653 --> 00:58:50,453
Speaker 3: this trend emerged in the eighties, particularly the late eighties,

999
00:58:51,293 --> 00:58:55,173
Speaker 3: and it spread like the proverbial virus.

1000
00:58:56,293 --> 00:58:58,653
Speaker 2: And if you look back from where we are now

1001
00:58:58,693 --> 00:59:01,493
Speaker 2: to where it was then when people were saying, oh,

1002
00:59:01,493 --> 00:59:04,773
Speaker 2: that's just America, it'll never happen here, we can see

1003
00:59:04,813 --> 00:59:09,093
Speaker 2: how quickly and how thoroughly it has a thing all

1004
00:59:09,253 --> 00:59:13,093
Speaker 2: manner of lives and all aspects of life.

1005
00:59:13,693 --> 00:59:17,533
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, when those sorts

1006
00:59:17,573 --> 00:59:21,213
Speaker 3: of movements began, I don't believe we understood just how

1007
00:59:21,253 --> 00:59:26,293
Speaker 3: global we had become, and how globalism would overwhelm us,

1008
00:59:26,373 --> 00:59:30,453
Speaker 3: and that would end up with greater and greater homogeneity,

1009
00:59:30,573 --> 00:59:33,493
Speaker 3: and that our freedom of thought would be constrained in

1010
00:59:33,533 --> 00:59:36,613
Speaker 3: the same way as our way we dress and behave

1011
00:59:36,693 --> 00:59:41,093
Speaker 3: would be constrained. And we created a superclass of influencers

1012
00:59:41,133 --> 00:59:44,573
Speaker 3: who are famous for no more than being influencers, who've

1013
00:59:44,573 --> 00:59:48,693
Speaker 3: even created another class of people who we have some

1014
00:59:49,213 --> 00:59:53,573
Speaker 3: morbid fascination of watching them go about their miserable lives.

1015
00:59:54,293 --> 00:59:58,613
Speaker 3: I mean, the whole concept of reality, television and social

1016
00:59:58,653 --> 01:00:01,693
Speaker 3: media has lent itself not to a diversity of thought,

1017
01:00:01,693 --> 01:00:05,133
Speaker 3: in my view, it's led itself to a constraint of thought. Now,

1018
01:00:05,533 --> 01:00:08,213
Speaker 3: I'm not defending hate speech, and I'm not defending race,

1019
01:00:08,653 --> 01:00:13,053
Speaker 3: and I'm not defending sexism. What I'm defending is articulate,

1020
01:00:13,133 --> 01:00:17,413
Speaker 3: well thought out speech and thinking which enters into the

1021
01:00:18,053 --> 01:00:22,613
Speaker 3: arena of thought and layers itself open to criticism and debate.

1022
01:00:23,613 --> 01:00:25,293
Speaker 2: If there was one thing that you were in a

1023
01:00:25,293 --> 01:00:30,493
Speaker 2: position to do to achieve one thing, what.

1024
01:00:32,013 --> 01:00:38,413
Speaker 3: I'd probably focus on health in this case in New Zealand, Layton,

1025
01:00:39,053 --> 01:00:42,733
Speaker 3: and I would look for a reform which was driven

1026
01:00:42,853 --> 01:00:45,533
Speaker 3: from the eyes and the voice and the experience of

1027
01:00:45,573 --> 01:00:46,133
Speaker 3: the consumer.

1028
01:00:46,973 --> 01:00:48,893
Speaker 2: Let me hit on a few other things, and just

1029
01:00:48,933 --> 01:00:52,053
Speaker 2: give me brief as brief answers as you can without

1030
01:00:52,053 --> 01:00:54,493
Speaker 2: short circuiting. I've imagine.

1031
01:00:55,573 --> 01:00:58,093
Speaker 3: An observation and need of research.

1032
01:00:58,933 --> 01:01:04,053
Speaker 2: Have you heard at all any speeches comments from Thomas Brady.

1033
01:01:04,813 --> 01:01:10,533
Speaker 3: Yes, I have, and the laboratory research certainly warrants some

1034
01:01:10,773 --> 01:01:14,133
Speaker 3: further investigation. So I'd say at the moment it's in

1035
01:01:14,213 --> 01:01:17,933
Speaker 3: that area that science works by observation followed up by

1036
01:01:18,013 --> 01:01:21,813
Speaker 3: rigorous research and observation has been made, a positive effect

1037
01:01:21,893 --> 01:01:26,373
Speaker 3: has been demonstrated. It now needs to be translated into

1038
01:01:26,493 --> 01:01:31,573
Speaker 3: more rigorous research. The media, I think we have a

1039
01:01:32,013 --> 01:01:36,693
Speaker 3: populist media with one or two exceptions going to notable exceptions,

1040
01:01:36,733 --> 01:01:38,853
Speaker 3: that no longer serves its purpose, which was to be

1041
01:01:39,733 --> 01:01:42,493
Speaker 3: a critical voice on society and a way of keeping

1042
01:01:42,573 --> 01:01:47,573
Speaker 3: our government accountable. I think our media now occupies the

1043
01:01:47,733 --> 01:01:50,933
Speaker 3: range of occupies the realm of entertainment.

1044
01:01:51,733 --> 01:01:55,373
Speaker 2: What about the what we anticipate? And we're having this

1045
01:01:55,493 --> 01:02:00,293
Speaker 2: discussion the day before the announcement is reputed to be made,

1046
01:02:00,453 --> 01:02:03,933
Speaker 2: and I'm talking about the trans Tasment bubble. It seems

1047
01:02:03,973 --> 01:02:05,293
Speaker 2: to be looming. What's your thought.

1048
01:02:06,493 --> 01:02:09,373
Speaker 3: I think it's essential from an economic point of view,

1049
01:02:09,813 --> 01:02:11,693
Speaker 3: it's clearly going to have to be a fluid things

1050
01:02:11,733 --> 01:02:15,173
Speaker 3: as outbroakes occur on both sides of the Tasman. I

1051
01:02:15,213 --> 01:02:17,333
Speaker 3: think our real concern in New Zealand is that we

1052
01:02:17,413 --> 01:02:20,853
Speaker 3: don't have adequate contact tracing and we're using a contact

1053
01:02:20,893 --> 01:02:23,613
Speaker 3: app which is steam driven. So I think our problem

1054
01:02:23,733 --> 01:02:26,573
Speaker 3: the problems are not Australian. The problems are are our

1055
01:02:26,693 --> 01:02:32,973
Speaker 3: capacity and competency. So what would you replace our app with? Oh, Look,

1056
01:02:33,013 --> 01:02:35,213
Speaker 3: there's a dozen different apps around the planet. Just choose

1057
01:02:35,253 --> 01:02:37,893
Speaker 3: your best. It's a bit like how would you manage

1058
01:02:38,253 --> 01:02:39,973
Speaker 3: vaccination in New Zealand? Just go and look what the

1059
01:02:40,013 --> 01:02:43,053
Speaker 3: Israelis did and just copy them. What software would you use?

1060
01:02:43,093 --> 01:02:45,893
Speaker 3: Go and flog their software? Why do we need to

1061
01:02:46,013 --> 01:02:49,733
Speaker 3: have this obsession with invented here? Choose the best that's available,

1062
01:02:50,133 --> 01:02:51,413
Speaker 3: adapt it and run with it.

1063
01:02:51,893 --> 01:02:54,893
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of these Raelis, we've had a very cruisy

1064
01:02:55,013 --> 01:02:57,773
Speaker 2: run in the greater scheme of things in New Zealand

1065
01:02:58,013 --> 01:03:00,373
Speaker 2: because of our geography as much as anything else.

1066
01:03:00,453 --> 01:03:01,653
Speaker 3: Yep, are more so.

1067
01:03:02,253 --> 01:03:04,333
Speaker 2: But the Israelis have been in and out and inundated,

1068
01:03:04,413 --> 01:03:10,573
Speaker 2: and all sorts of aspects of COVID have affected them.

1069
01:03:11,573 --> 01:03:14,453
Speaker 2: And I'm only mentioning them because it's true and because

1070
01:03:14,493 --> 01:03:17,773
Speaker 2: you mentioned them. So why are we not better off

1071
01:03:17,813 --> 01:03:21,093
Speaker 2: than they are in terms of vaccination now, in terms

1072
01:03:21,173 --> 01:03:24,013
Speaker 2: of where we're at in the lack of suffering that

1073
01:03:24,093 --> 01:03:26,053
Speaker 2: we have here as opposed to them.

1074
01:03:26,733 --> 01:03:29,053
Speaker 3: Look, I think, first of all, I know a fair

1075
01:03:29,133 --> 01:03:32,493
Speaker 3: bit about the Middle East because I've been going several

1076
01:03:32,533 --> 01:03:35,253
Speaker 3: times a year for the last thirty six years, and

1077
01:03:35,373 --> 01:03:39,333
Speaker 3: I chair some important and important committees in the Middle

1078
01:03:39,333 --> 01:03:44,053
Speaker 3: East and advise a range of jurisdictions. The Middle East

1079
01:03:44,093 --> 01:03:47,693
Speaker 3: became largely unstuck because while they manage the risks amongst

1080
01:03:48,453 --> 01:03:51,133
Speaker 3: their core communities, they didn't manage the risks amongst the

1081
01:03:51,213 --> 01:03:57,093
Speaker 3: expatriate communities, and that really led to their undoing. And also,

1082
01:03:57,213 --> 01:03:59,253
Speaker 3: of course they have land borders which are very hard

1083
01:03:59,293 --> 01:04:01,613
Speaker 3: to manage. Why have we done well in New Zealand.

1084
01:04:01,653 --> 01:04:03,893
Speaker 3: I think you've identified the major one, which is at

1085
01:04:04,053 --> 01:04:07,413
Speaker 3: our geography. We are too We're an island nation at

1086
01:04:07,453 --> 01:04:10,413
Speaker 3: the bottom of the South. Specific we have lots of sunshine,

1087
01:04:10,453 --> 01:04:12,773
Speaker 3: we have lots of wind. We don't live we don't

1088
01:04:12,813 --> 01:04:15,733
Speaker 3: live in high density, we don't have we don't live

1089
01:04:15,773 --> 01:04:20,293
Speaker 3: in houses which have a single ventilation system for multiple occupants.

1090
01:04:20,933 --> 01:04:25,653
Speaker 3: There are a whole range of geological, geographical, demographic and

1091
01:04:25,773 --> 01:04:30,973
Speaker 3: sociological reasons why we are well placed to do well.

1092
01:04:31,613 --> 01:04:35,013
Speaker 3: I think our first lockdown, while I think it was inhumane,

1093
01:04:35,213 --> 01:04:38,453
Speaker 3: was highly effective. It was completely avoidable, but it was

1094
01:04:38,533 --> 01:04:41,093
Speaker 3: highly effective. And I think the third reason late and

1095
01:04:41,133 --> 01:04:43,573
Speaker 3: we'd have to concede, is something called dumb good luck.

1096
01:04:44,853 --> 01:04:48,933
Speaker 3: You think about that air hosts the air air attend

1097
01:04:49,013 --> 01:04:51,893
Speaker 3: and that went to that wedding and bluff and infected

1098
01:04:51,933 --> 01:04:53,933
Speaker 3: eighty eight people. I think it was one or two deaths.

1099
01:04:54,453 --> 01:04:57,173
Speaker 3: If we'd had one person like that in the last

1100
01:04:57,213 --> 01:05:00,213
Speaker 3: fifteen outbreaks, we'd look a lot more like Victorian, a

1101
01:05:00,293 --> 01:05:01,493
Speaker 3: lot less like Queensland.

1102
01:05:02,773 --> 01:05:07,693
Speaker 2: And you don't think that opening the bubble might lead

1103
01:05:07,733 --> 01:05:08,413
Speaker 2: to the same.

1104
01:05:09,013 --> 01:05:11,693
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do actually think that. I think the bubble

1105
01:05:11,773 --> 01:05:15,933
Speaker 3: being opened is essential economically, but there are risks which

1106
01:05:16,013 --> 01:05:17,653
Speaker 3: sit there. First of all, if you fill up the

1107
01:05:17,733 --> 01:05:21,133
Speaker 3: quarantine places with people from the UK and the US,

1108
01:05:21,293 --> 01:05:23,973
Speaker 3: then you actually increase our risk at the border. My

1109
01:05:24,133 --> 01:05:25,813
Speaker 3: view is we should be dialing back to the number

1110
01:05:25,813 --> 01:05:28,933
Speaker 3: of people coming from the UK in the US. I

1111
01:05:29,053 --> 01:05:32,053
Speaker 3: think we have a real problem with New Zealanders being

1112
01:05:32,213 --> 01:05:35,573
Speaker 3: potentially stranded in Australia. And I think the other problem

1113
01:05:35,733 --> 01:05:37,333
Speaker 3: is that, as I said to you, I think we

1114
01:05:37,493 --> 01:05:42,733
Speaker 3: have problems in our contact tracing capacity. But it's time

1115
01:05:42,813 --> 01:05:47,053
Speaker 3: I think for the government to stop talking about it's

1116
01:05:47,093 --> 01:05:50,613
Speaker 3: going to listen to industry about logistics and so on,

1117
01:05:51,013 --> 01:05:53,413
Speaker 3: and actively start engaging with them and taking on the

1118
01:05:53,493 --> 01:05:56,853
Speaker 3: best that's available in society. But I think there are

1119
01:05:56,893 --> 01:05:59,213
Speaker 3: real risks to opening the border. I think it's an

1120
01:05:59,533 --> 01:06:04,933
Speaker 3: economic necessity, but there are some significant health risks which

1121
01:06:05,053 --> 01:06:05,493
Speaker 3: underpin it.

1122
01:06:05,893 --> 01:06:06,973
Speaker 2: What about herd immunity.

1123
01:06:08,373 --> 01:06:12,253
Speaker 3: Immunity is probably achievable with the fires of vaccine, given

1124
01:06:12,333 --> 01:06:17,253
Speaker 3: its efficacy against existing strains of COVID. I mean clearly

1125
01:06:17,333 --> 01:06:19,613
Speaker 3: we're going to need top ups I don't know, annually,

1126
01:06:19,693 --> 01:06:22,613
Speaker 3: second annually, in the same way we have of influenza

1127
01:06:22,653 --> 01:06:28,533
Speaker 3: which address the newly emergent strains that are problematic. I

1128
01:06:28,573 --> 01:06:32,173
Speaker 3: think heard immunity from a planetary point of view is many,

1129
01:06:32,293 --> 01:06:35,773
Speaker 3: many years away. I think this pandemic has another five

1130
01:06:35,853 --> 01:06:36,773
Speaker 3: to ten years to run.

1131
01:06:37,613 --> 01:06:41,733
Speaker 2: Wow. That's my second Wow. I want to throw this

1132
01:06:41,893 --> 01:06:47,453
Speaker 2: term at you. Transhumanism. Just give it, give me a description.

1133
01:06:47,853 --> 01:06:52,093
Speaker 3: Definitely, Yeah. I think transhumanism is how we introduce some

1134
01:06:52,373 --> 01:06:56,533
Speaker 3: form of automation or artificial intelligence, or we actually look

1135
01:06:56,613 --> 01:07:01,653
Speaker 3: at tracking, or how we code information about individuals onto

1136
01:07:01,693 --> 01:07:07,293
Speaker 3: their body. There's a whole range of possible manifestations of transhumanism.

1137
01:07:07,373 --> 01:07:10,173
Speaker 3: At it's simplest level, where we have a chip which

1138
01:07:10,213 --> 01:07:15,093
Speaker 3: is inserted which provides credit card details and basic health information,

1139
01:07:15,213 --> 01:07:19,333
Speaker 3: you can see it would be a positive contributor to society.

1140
01:07:20,053 --> 01:07:23,613
Speaker 3: At the point though, where it starts providing some form

1141
01:07:23,693 --> 01:07:28,773
Speaker 3: of mobile intelligence. You begin to start worrying about are

1142
01:07:28,853 --> 01:07:31,333
Speaker 3: we actually starting to fiddle with a very fundaments of

1143
01:07:31,973 --> 01:07:34,253
Speaker 3: human nature? And I think we have to be very careful.

1144
01:07:34,293 --> 01:07:39,053
Speaker 2: Then think very close to it. Professor des Gorman, I

1145
01:07:39,293 --> 01:07:43,573
Speaker 2: have to say that this has been so enjoyable I

1146
01:07:43,693 --> 01:07:47,133
Speaker 2: could continue for as long again. So on that basis,

1147
01:07:47,493 --> 01:07:48,853
Speaker 2: I expect you to come back sometime.

1148
01:07:50,453 --> 01:07:52,413
Speaker 3: Well, thanks lad, and I thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.

1149
01:07:52,533 --> 01:07:53,173
Speaker 3: Let's do it again.

1150
01:07:53,653 --> 01:07:54,653
Speaker 2: Appreciate it very much.

1151
01:07:55,533 --> 01:07:55,893
Speaker 3: Aries.

1152
01:08:11,573 --> 01:08:15,173
Speaker 2: Buccolan is a natural oral vaccine in a tablet form

1153
01:08:15,293 --> 01:08:19,093
Speaker 2: called bacterial l sate. It'll boost your natural protection against

1154
01:08:19,133 --> 01:08:22,253
Speaker 2: bacterial infections in your chest and throat. A three day

1155
01:08:22,333 --> 01:08:25,173
Speaker 2: course of seven Bucklan tablets will help your body build

1156
01:08:25,253 --> 01:08:28,893
Speaker 2: up to three months of immunity against bugs which cause

1157
01:08:29,093 --> 01:08:32,653
Speaker 2: bacterial cold symptoms. So who can take buccolan well, the

1158
01:08:32,693 --> 01:08:35,653
Speaker 2: whole family. From two years of age and upwards. A

1159
01:08:35,773 --> 01:08:39,093
Speaker 2: course of Buckelan tablets offers cost effective and safe protection

1160
01:08:39,213 --> 01:08:43,173
Speaker 2: from colds and chills. Protection becomes effective a few days

1161
01:08:43,213 --> 01:08:46,013
Speaker 2: after you take buccolan and lasts for up to three

1162
01:08:46,093 --> 01:08:49,173
Speaker 2: months following the three day course. Buccolan can be taken

1163
01:08:49,213 --> 01:08:52,333
Speaker 2: throughout the cold season, over winter or all the year round.

1164
01:08:52,613 --> 01:08:55,453
Speaker 2: And remember Buckelan is not intended as an alternative to

1165
01:08:55,573 --> 01:08:58,973
Speaker 2: influenza vaccination, but may be used along with the flu

1166
01:08:59,093 --> 01:09:03,173
Speaker 2: vaccination for added protection. And keep in mind that millions

1167
01:09:03,213 --> 01:09:06,413
Speaker 2: of doses have been taken by Kiwis for over fifty years.

1168
01:09:06,853 --> 01:09:10,213
Speaker 2: Only available from your pharmacy. Always read the label and

1169
01:09:10,493 --> 01:09:14,253
Speaker 2: users directed, and see your doctor if systems persist. Farmer Broker,

1170
01:09:14,333 --> 01:09:18,093
Speaker 2: Auckland Light and swith I into the mail room for

1171
01:09:18,253 --> 01:09:21,293
Speaker 2: two nine two with Missus producer. Good Morning, Layton, Good morning,

1172
01:09:21,413 --> 01:09:25,333
Speaker 2: it is very good morning, beautiful. We've had some lousy weather,

1173
01:09:25,893 --> 01:09:28,613
Speaker 2: but the weather faded. The weather when it was bad,

1174
01:09:28,733 --> 01:09:33,133
Speaker 2: faded into something irrelevant. After listening to Des Gorman today.

1175
01:09:33,093 --> 01:09:36,653
Speaker 4: Yes, and let's just say we met Des a few

1176
01:09:36,733 --> 01:09:40,013
Speaker 4: times and his lovely family and we are so thinking

1177
01:09:40,093 --> 01:09:42,133
Speaker 4: of him at the moment. What a tragic loss.

1178
01:09:42,853 --> 01:09:45,093
Speaker 2: Indeed. Okay, Laydon, this.

1179
01:09:45,213 --> 01:09:48,733
Speaker 4: Is from Pam. I am a new listener to your podcasts.

1180
01:09:48,813 --> 01:09:51,853
Speaker 4: They are always so topical and enlightening. I've never written

1181
01:09:51,893 --> 01:09:53,693
Speaker 4: to you before, but I would just like to comment

1182
01:09:53,813 --> 01:09:57,253
Speaker 4: on last week's podcast with Guy Hatchard. He speaks a

1183
01:09:57,333 --> 01:10:01,173
Speaker 4: lot of truth I understand that AI technology can be risky,

1184
01:10:01,293 --> 01:10:05,173
Speaker 4: but for me it's a game changer. I have low vision,

1185
01:10:05,373 --> 01:10:08,173
Speaker 4: and the AI apps such as Seeing AI that have

1186
01:10:08,333 --> 01:10:12,453
Speaker 4: the ability to change text to speech, along with many

1187
01:10:12,533 --> 01:10:15,613
Speaker 4: other applications, have become an essential part of daily living

1188
01:10:15,693 --> 01:10:18,733
Speaker 4: for me and also many others who are blind or

1189
01:10:18,893 --> 01:10:22,893
Speaker 4: have low vision. Of course, it has its limitations. So

1190
01:10:23,093 --> 01:10:25,293
Speaker 4: many thanks, and I look forward to hearing more from

1191
01:10:25,333 --> 01:10:27,853
Speaker 4: you and your special guests. And that's from Pam.

1192
01:10:28,133 --> 01:10:30,293
Speaker 2: I thank you, appreciate it, and I expect you to

1193
01:10:30,373 --> 01:10:35,013
Speaker 2: be there too. We've both got expectations now from Gin

1194
01:10:36,453 --> 01:10:41,453
Speaker 2: and this is relevant. I googled Guy Hatchett, and sure enough,

1195
01:10:41,773 --> 01:10:45,533
Speaker 2: just as Guy predicted, the very first search item was

1196
01:10:45,573 --> 01:10:49,493
Speaker 2: a National Library synopsis of the stuff hit piece against Guy,

1197
01:10:49,933 --> 01:10:55,253
Speaker 2: written by some random Keith Lynch. The synopsis alone contained

1198
01:10:55,293 --> 01:11:01,573
Speaker 2: these words alternative facts, anti vaccination, alternative views, and super

1199
01:11:01,653 --> 01:11:06,493
Speaker 2: spreader of misinformation. If this is not a defamation campaign

1200
01:11:06,573 --> 01:11:09,333
Speaker 2: disguised as a news article, I don't know what it is.

1201
01:11:09,813 --> 01:11:13,853
Speaker 2: I'm surprised Guy had ensued the pants off stuff thankfully.

1202
01:11:14,013 --> 01:11:17,133
Speaker 2: The third Google search item pointed to the Latent Smith

1203
01:11:17,173 --> 01:11:19,333
Speaker 2: podcast number two hundred and ninety one, which you did

1204
01:11:19,413 --> 01:11:23,693
Speaker 2: last week, was Guy nice In an age where far

1205
01:11:23,853 --> 01:11:27,973
Speaker 2: too many of us are increasingly adopting AI with reckless abandon.

1206
01:11:28,453 --> 01:11:32,133
Speaker 2: I concur with Guy that the key is to rediscover

1207
01:11:32,533 --> 01:11:35,333
Speaker 2: our humanity. I almost fell off my chair when you

1208
01:11:35,413 --> 01:11:39,573
Speaker 2: read a piece about cl One computer that is powered

1209
01:11:39,613 --> 01:11:45,173
Speaker 2: by lab grown brain cells. The CEO explained, we take

1210
01:11:45,453 --> 01:11:49,453
Speaker 2: blood or skin and we can transform them into stem cells,

1211
01:11:49,853 --> 01:11:54,413
Speaker 2: and from stem cells into brain cells or neurons that

1212
01:11:54,613 --> 01:12:00,973
Speaker 2: we then use for computing and intelligence. Close quote. So

1213
01:12:01,133 --> 01:12:05,293
Speaker 2: the matrix is real. There are some recent signs of hope, though.

1214
01:12:05,453 --> 01:12:09,133
Speaker 2: Stuff published Ian Taylor's recent open letter to cinder Adern,

1215
01:12:09,653 --> 01:12:13,693
Speaker 2: which chronicled her transformation from a warm blooded kindness and

1216
01:12:13,773 --> 01:12:18,173
Speaker 2: moting PM into a cold blooded iron curtain pr machine.

1217
01:12:19,093 --> 01:12:22,693
Speaker 2: Jaguars sales are down by ninety seven point five percent

1218
01:12:22,733 --> 01:12:28,613
Speaker 2: across Europe after their recent idiotic, woke LGBTQ rebranding exercise.

1219
01:12:29,213 --> 01:12:31,173
Speaker 2: I don't think you described that quite well enough. You

1220
01:12:31,213 --> 01:12:34,693
Speaker 2: could have been a bit more vicious. And Trump's Big

1221
01:12:34,853 --> 01:12:38,573
Speaker 2: Beautiful Bill might lead to the end of Planned Parenthood's

1222
01:12:38,653 --> 01:12:44,253
Speaker 2: abortion and baby Part's trading program. I like Guy Hatchard's

1223
01:12:44,253 --> 01:12:46,853
Speaker 2: solution to all this madness. He said, if we tap

1224
01:12:46,933 --> 01:12:49,373
Speaker 2: into who we are as human beings, we're going to

1225
01:12:49,413 --> 01:12:54,253
Speaker 2: get through this. Ultimately, we have to know ourselves. My

1226
01:12:54,453 --> 01:12:58,533
Speaker 2: question is will we rediscover our humanity faster than we're

1227
01:12:58,573 --> 01:13:01,773
Speaker 2: losing it? Very good way to put a good question, Ji,

1228
01:13:01,933 --> 01:13:06,813
Speaker 2: Thank you. Oh PS. I was shocked to hear from

1229
01:13:06,893 --> 01:13:10,853
Speaker 2: the New Zealand Initiative about the sudden passing of Professor

1230
01:13:10,893 --> 01:13:14,693
Speaker 2: Des Gorman, whom you've had on your podcast on multiple occasions.

1231
01:13:15,613 --> 01:13:17,693
Speaker 2: Very sad about this.

1232
01:13:21,173 --> 01:13:25,933
Speaker 4: Layton Steph says, since much has been said recently against

1233
01:13:25,973 --> 01:13:28,573
Speaker 4: the lifting of GMO regulations, I thought I would add

1234
01:13:28,613 --> 01:13:32,453
Speaker 4: a more positive opinion. Do people understand the way genetic

1235
01:13:32,573 --> 01:13:35,653
Speaker 4: modification has been done in the past for crop improvement.

1236
01:13:36,293 --> 01:13:40,973
Speaker 4: The technique used for decades involves applying chemicals to seeds

1237
01:13:41,093 --> 01:13:44,013
Speaker 4: in order to make random mutations all over the DNA,

1238
01:13:44,893 --> 01:13:47,853
Speaker 4: or by using radiation to do the same thing. There

1239
01:13:47,933 --> 01:13:50,613
Speaker 4: is no control where the mutations occur, and it is

1240
01:13:50,693 --> 01:13:53,973
Speaker 4: therefore blind hidden miss as to what happens to the plant.

1241
01:13:54,853 --> 01:14:00,493
Speaker 4: Genetic engineering, however, can be done precisely on targeted genes

1242
01:14:00,573 --> 01:14:04,013
Speaker 4: to get crop improvement. I would like to ask the

1243
01:14:04,093 --> 01:14:07,093
Speaker 4: people who are opposed to GE why they have been

1244
01:14:07,173 --> 01:14:11,533
Speaker 4: so silent on the clear really worse sledgehammer approaches. But

1245
01:14:11,813 --> 01:14:16,293
Speaker 4: despite this, no disastrous ecological nightmares have come about. So

1246
01:14:16,493 --> 01:14:21,373
Speaker 4: why would GE targeted approach now cause such fear mongering?

1247
01:14:22,053 --> 01:14:25,373
Speaker 4: Why not bring an actual genetic engineer to discuss this

1248
01:14:25,653 --> 01:14:27,653
Speaker 4: rather than people who do not work in the field.

1249
01:14:28,173 --> 01:14:31,253
Speaker 4: I am worried that a certain negative bias is coming

1250
01:14:31,333 --> 01:14:34,893
Speaker 4: across to your listener, says Steph. And actually Steph has

1251
01:14:34,973 --> 01:14:38,173
Speaker 4: written before, because at the beginning she said, did my

1252
01:14:38,333 --> 01:14:40,453
Speaker 4: last email get lost? Or did you choose not to

1253
01:14:40,533 --> 01:14:43,133
Speaker 4: read it out? I'm curious as to why if it

1254
01:14:43,293 --> 01:14:46,653
Speaker 4: was the latter, Steph, I think I can confidently say,

1255
01:14:46,893 --> 01:14:49,893
Speaker 4: as one of a team of two here that our

1256
01:14:50,653 --> 01:14:55,093
Speaker 4: filing system is pretty basic, so we've probably lost it,

1257
01:14:55,653 --> 01:14:56,013
Speaker 4: did we not?

1258
01:14:56,133 --> 01:14:56,333
Speaker 3: Later?

1259
01:14:56,453 --> 01:14:59,213
Speaker 2: I don't know the reason why I was going to

1260
01:14:59,253 --> 01:15:03,453
Speaker 2: try and find it online, and I suppose do so.

1261
01:15:04,733 --> 01:15:08,013
Speaker 4: She's got very busy, she's got she's got a very

1262
01:15:09,093 --> 01:15:10,213
Speaker 4: salient point.

1263
01:15:10,733 --> 01:15:15,253
Speaker 2: With regard to LGE. Well, I'll put it to you

1264
01:15:15,413 --> 01:15:18,373
Speaker 2: this way, apart from leave the no, I don't believe

1265
01:15:18,413 --> 01:15:21,573
Speaker 2: it aside a guy Hatchett has a long life of

1266
01:15:21,653 --> 01:15:25,893
Speaker 2: experience in working with such things. So that's point one.

1267
01:15:26,333 --> 01:15:30,173
Speaker 2: Point two is that the ability to look on the

1268
01:15:30,253 --> 01:15:33,333
Speaker 2: label of a can or a packet in a supermarket

1269
01:15:33,573 --> 01:15:36,173
Speaker 2: and see what's in it and what you might want

1270
01:15:36,213 --> 01:15:38,413
Speaker 2: to avoid. Therefore you won't buy it, or it's good

1271
01:15:38,493 --> 01:15:42,773
Speaker 2: or it's better along with carbohydrates and sugars and amino

1272
01:15:42,853 --> 01:15:45,693
Speaker 2: acids or whatever else they put on there. People do that,

1273
01:15:45,893 --> 01:15:48,893
Speaker 2: they do it a lot, and changes that are being

1274
01:15:48,973 --> 01:15:52,853
Speaker 2: made will prevent that from happening. You will not know

1275
01:15:53,253 --> 01:15:56,373
Speaker 2: that your product has been fiddled with by people who

1276
01:15:56,653 --> 01:15:59,813
Speaker 2: may or may not know what they're doing. And off

1277
01:15:59,893 --> 01:16:03,213
Speaker 2: the back of that, you've got exports to take into

1278
01:16:03,253 --> 01:16:06,093
Speaker 2: account where in other parts of the world they won't

1279
01:16:06,133 --> 01:16:09,693
Speaker 2: have a bar of it with the only country sorry,

1280
01:16:09,693 --> 01:16:12,933
Speaker 2: as I'm aware now from Jeff, Episode two ninety one

1281
01:16:13,173 --> 01:16:15,773
Speaker 2: was predictably good. I have followed guy Hatchet for a

1282
01:16:15,853 --> 01:16:19,453
Speaker 2: long time. Now let me get some hairs off my chest.

1283
01:16:19,973 --> 01:16:23,293
Speaker 2: Some things that infuriate me are those who, and I'm

1284
01:16:23,293 --> 01:16:26,653
Speaker 2: embarrassed to say it pretty much only happens in New Zealand,

1285
01:16:27,133 --> 01:16:29,893
Speaker 2: but it's those who say dub dub dub as opposed

1286
01:16:29,893 --> 01:16:33,173
Speaker 2: to www. Another thing which I'll come back to that

1287
01:16:33,573 --> 01:16:36,373
Speaker 2: another thing which gets the hair on edge of those

1288
01:16:36,893 --> 01:16:40,173
Speaker 2: and this is confined mainly to the media. It's those

1289
01:16:40,293 --> 01:16:44,573
Speaker 2: who say t's and c's. This started some time back,

1290
01:16:44,773 --> 01:16:47,013
Speaker 2: and it bugs me simply because I believe it is

1291
01:16:47,093 --> 01:16:51,893
Speaker 2: based on the postmodernist theory where nothing has meaning. Of course,

1292
01:16:51,933 --> 01:16:55,493
Speaker 2: it means terms and conditions, but how do the physically

1293
01:16:56,013 --> 01:17:01,093
Speaker 2: challenged know that when they're signing sales documents unless someone

1294
01:17:01,133 --> 01:17:03,973
Speaker 2: points it out. Another huge hate for me is the

1295
01:17:04,093 --> 01:17:08,013
Speaker 2: constant usage of the name aat a rower. Now you're cooking,

1296
01:17:08,093 --> 01:17:13,013
Speaker 2: now the gas is flowing, either attached to or instead

1297
01:17:13,053 --> 01:17:16,013
Speaker 2: of our real name New Zealand, and the way businesses

1298
01:17:16,093 --> 01:17:19,413
Speaker 2: feel the need to substitute English words for Mary words

1299
01:17:19,733 --> 01:17:22,733
Speaker 2: at the drop of a hat, either in written correspondence

1300
01:17:22,813 --> 01:17:26,013
Speaker 2: or verbally. I find it very condescending and it is

1301
01:17:26,573 --> 01:17:31,053
Speaker 2: mongrelizing both languages. To be frank, I'm sorry to vent

1302
01:17:31,173 --> 01:17:33,213
Speaker 2: to you this way, but my wife has given up

1303
01:17:33,253 --> 01:17:37,173
Speaker 2: listening to me and my ventings, so rather than bang

1304
01:17:37,253 --> 01:17:44,493
Speaker 2: my head against the wall, I write, LOL, that's funny, yes,

1305
01:17:44,773 --> 01:17:48,853
Speaker 2: very Now go back to the dubww and the www.

1306
01:17:49,493 --> 01:17:52,293
Speaker 2: I don't know anybody who says that anymore. Nobody you

1307
01:17:52,373 --> 01:17:52,893
Speaker 2: don't need it.

1308
01:17:53,093 --> 01:17:55,493
Speaker 4: Well you don't, you don't use the that was right

1309
01:17:55,533 --> 01:17:57,093
Speaker 4: at the beginning, I know, so.

1310
01:17:57,413 --> 01:18:00,333
Speaker 2: Why I mean, well I haven't heard that for ages.

1311
01:18:01,573 --> 01:18:03,573
Speaker 2: And there was one other part there too, what was it?

1312
01:18:05,573 --> 01:18:08,773
Speaker 2: T and CS seas and C's tell you one reason

1313
01:18:08,853 --> 01:18:12,453
Speaker 2: teas and sees is utilized because when you're doing a

1314
01:18:12,493 --> 01:18:16,053
Speaker 2: thirty second radio commercial, for instance, right, and you're recording

1315
01:18:16,093 --> 01:18:19,453
Speaker 2: it and you're trying to jam in everything you can.

1316
01:18:20,493 --> 01:18:25,413
Speaker 2: I'm talking about the advertising companies, the company they're advertising for,

1317
01:18:25,613 --> 01:18:28,613
Speaker 2: trying to fit as much information as possible terms and

1318
01:18:28,773 --> 01:18:33,813
Speaker 2: conditions takes up much more time than Te's and C's does.

1319
01:18:34,933 --> 01:18:36,893
Speaker 2: Take my word for it, but it's one of.

1320
01:18:36,893 --> 01:18:38,813
Speaker 4: The reasons it's life, isn't it. I Mean, there are

1321
01:18:38,893 --> 01:18:41,933
Speaker 4: things that all of us that grind all of our gears,

1322
01:18:42,093 --> 01:18:43,213
Speaker 4: just personally.

1323
01:18:43,533 --> 01:18:48,333
Speaker 2: You've got the and he recognizes that he's just launching off.

1324
01:18:49,293 --> 01:18:52,413
Speaker 4: Layton Don says, sitting here listening to Guy Hatchett, I

1325
01:18:52,653 --> 01:18:55,893
Speaker 4: pondered back to the UN resolution on the Earth's population

1326
01:18:56,253 --> 01:18:59,173
Speaker 4: and their desire to do something to reduce it or

1327
01:18:59,213 --> 01:19:02,893
Speaker 4: at least arrest its growth, as expounded by a number

1328
01:19:02,933 --> 01:19:06,853
Speaker 4: of your very informed and fascinating podcasts, some of which

1329
01:19:06,893 --> 01:19:11,053
Speaker 4: have sent shivers down my space. COVID and its subsequent

1330
01:19:11,253 --> 01:19:14,813
Speaker 4: vaccine were derived from and I assume in the case

1331
01:19:14,853 --> 01:19:19,893
Speaker 4: of Wuhan genetic Labs, I wonder if, as a conspiracist,

1332
01:19:20,133 --> 01:19:23,453
Speaker 4: there could be a link here. Guys, optimism is a

1333
01:19:23,533 --> 01:19:27,213
Speaker 4: panacea for the ills society faces. Keep up the great

1334
01:19:27,613 --> 01:19:30,653
Speaker 4: I was going to say, good work, but it deserves better,

1335
01:19:31,533 --> 01:19:35,693
Speaker 4: and keep bringing these fascinating podcasts to our doorstep.

1336
01:19:36,413 --> 01:19:42,533
Speaker 2: That's from don don appreciate that. Thank you all right now. Now,

1337
01:19:42,573 --> 01:19:46,213
Speaker 2: I've gone through the emails after the podcast back in

1338
01:19:47,013 --> 01:19:50,453
Speaker 2: twenty twenty one and pulled out just a few of

1339
01:19:50,573 --> 01:19:53,013
Speaker 2: a number. And by the way, there's a whole lot

1340
01:19:53,093 --> 01:19:56,293
Speaker 2: more in twenty three, in particular when dev was on

1341
01:19:56,453 --> 01:19:59,733
Speaker 2: again more than once, missus producer, Why did you lead

1342
01:19:59,813 --> 01:20:01,653
Speaker 2: off ladon?

1343
01:20:01,693 --> 01:20:04,613
Speaker 4: This is from Steve. What a brilliant and rational thinker

1344
01:20:04,693 --> 01:20:08,893
Speaker 4: Professor des Gorman is. His knowledge and achievements outstanding, and

1345
01:20:09,013 --> 01:20:11,773
Speaker 4: his delivery style is so engaging that I could listen

1346
01:20:11,813 --> 01:20:14,053
Speaker 4: to him all day and learn something of value with

1347
01:20:14,133 --> 01:20:17,013
Speaker 4: every sentence. I would go as far to say that

1348
01:20:17,053 --> 01:20:18,973
Speaker 4: he was the best guest you've ever had.

1349
01:20:19,893 --> 01:20:23,493
Speaker 2: Well, I don't blame you for saying that. Now this

1350
01:20:23,613 --> 01:20:27,493
Speaker 2: one is interesting. Hello, Layton, my brother Bryce from Brisbane.

1351
01:20:27,653 --> 01:20:29,653
Speaker 2: It's the same one who I believe you know well,

1352
01:20:30,173 --> 01:20:32,333
Speaker 2: has sent me the podcast that you ran this week

1353
01:20:32,413 --> 01:20:34,933
Speaker 2: with Des Gorman. I found it very interesting and one

1354
01:20:34,973 --> 01:20:38,733
Speaker 2: I agreed with in many places, if not all. I

1355
01:20:38,853 --> 01:20:41,413
Speaker 2: feel New Zealand is sadly a country where she'll be

1356
01:20:41,533 --> 01:20:44,173
Speaker 2: right and sadly she won't be right if it's not

1357
01:20:44,333 --> 01:20:47,293
Speaker 2: done properly. We do not seem to have the capacity

1358
01:20:47,453 --> 01:20:51,213
Speaker 2: or drive. Perhaps it's the finances and other drivers to

1359
01:20:51,333 --> 01:20:54,533
Speaker 2: dot our eyes and cross our teas. I see this

1360
01:20:54,813 --> 01:20:58,133
Speaker 2: is rampant across the food industry in which I work

1361
01:20:58,213 --> 01:21:01,293
Speaker 2: as a supplier of equipment, and it drives me crazy.

1362
01:21:01,773 --> 01:21:05,653
Speaker 2: Thank you for the informative podcast, Scott. Scott, I have

1363
01:21:05,773 --> 01:21:09,253
Speaker 2: something from your brother in Brisbane, but I was going

1364
01:21:09,333 --> 01:21:12,493
Speaker 2: to utilize it today, but I'm not because of the

1365
01:21:12,653 --> 01:21:16,933
Speaker 2: nature of things. But you are quite right and I appreciate.

1366
01:21:16,533 --> 01:21:21,653
Speaker 4: It, Layton. Steve says, wow, just wow. Please keep doing

1367
01:21:21,733 --> 01:21:24,733
Speaker 4: what you do. The relatively normal amongst us need to

1368
01:21:24,773 --> 01:21:28,133
Speaker 4: be exposed to the good people you interview to broadcast

1369
01:21:28,373 --> 01:21:31,813
Speaker 4: Professor Gorman for Prime Minister would be insulting the man.

1370
01:21:32,333 --> 01:21:36,613
Speaker 2: Now, this one is very special. So often enjoyment and

1371
01:21:36,613 --> 01:21:40,533
Speaker 2: appreciation of webcasts depends on one's ability to relate to

1372
01:21:40,613 --> 01:21:44,013
Speaker 2: the subject. Well, that's how it works for me, he says,

1373
01:21:44,893 --> 01:21:49,053
Speaker 2: in listening to the Professor des Gorman interview, I can

1374
01:21:49,173 --> 01:21:52,453
Speaker 2: relate one hundred percent of his comments and views, and

1375
01:21:52,573 --> 01:21:55,853
Speaker 2: I am in awe of his clarity and the electricity

1376
01:21:55,933 --> 01:21:59,813
Speaker 2: of his knowledge. I'll be playing it again and again.

1377
01:22:00,693 --> 01:22:04,173
Speaker 2: A really great interview, Layton, classic and foreboding and right

1378
01:22:04,253 --> 01:22:06,333
Speaker 2: on the button. And I have to tell you that

1379
01:22:06,453 --> 01:22:09,173
Speaker 2: that is so. That was written by my closest friend

1380
01:22:09,813 --> 01:22:12,613
Speaker 2: who preceded Dez by three years.

1381
01:22:12,973 --> 01:22:18,333
Speaker 4: Yes, Leighton Darling Ray Podcast one oh five says, Paul

1382
01:22:19,333 --> 01:22:22,893
Speaker 4: is the highlight of twenty twenty one. Completely lost for words. Therefore,

1383
01:22:22,933 --> 01:22:24,693
Speaker 4: we'll go back and listen to it again to try

1384
01:22:24,733 --> 01:22:27,293
Speaker 4: and get my head around just how good Dez Gorman is.

1385
01:22:27,813 --> 01:22:29,653
Speaker 4: I will add a wow to your.

1386
01:22:29,613 --> 01:22:33,573
Speaker 2: Two gus, listen to your interview with Dez gordman excellence.

1387
01:22:33,653 --> 01:22:35,933
Speaker 2: You've had so many great interviews, this one is right

1388
01:22:36,093 --> 01:22:39,413
Speaker 2: up there. He is such an accomplished individual. His talents

1389
01:22:39,493 --> 01:22:43,333
Speaker 2: could be used too much greater effect In so many areas,

1390
01:22:44,213 --> 01:22:47,613
Speaker 2: so many different areas for the betterment of policy and

1391
01:22:47,813 --> 01:22:51,533
Speaker 2: outcomes in New Zealand. However, if you don't toe the

1392
01:22:51,653 --> 01:22:57,733
Speaker 2: party line, you're ignored. Well done from someone I believe

1393
01:22:57,813 --> 01:22:59,053
Speaker 2: has a sur in front.

1394
01:22:58,853 --> 01:23:03,213
Speaker 4: Of his name, Layton John says, too much to take

1395
01:23:03,293 --> 01:23:05,893
Speaker 4: in in one session. I'd like it in written form

1396
01:23:05,973 --> 01:23:08,173
Speaker 4: so that I could study the topics discuss more close.

1397
01:23:08,853 --> 01:23:11,613
Speaker 4: I was very impressed with what was said, and that's

1398
01:23:11,653 --> 01:23:12,693
Speaker 4: from a job John.

1399
01:23:13,173 --> 01:23:15,453
Speaker 2: The good news is, of course, because that was written

1400
01:23:15,533 --> 01:23:18,933
Speaker 2: three four years ago. The good news is that now

1401
01:23:19,253 --> 01:23:24,173
Speaker 2: everything is translated from the verbal into the written word

1402
01:23:24,613 --> 01:23:29,453
Speaker 2: on the podcast. It's something I hadn't mentioned because I'd

1403
01:23:29,453 --> 01:23:33,013
Speaker 2: actually forgotten about it until just then. So you can

1404
01:23:33,173 --> 01:23:37,253
Speaker 2: read it and it's it's ai really working in both

1405
01:23:37,293 --> 01:23:38,373
Speaker 2: directions anyway.

1406
01:23:38,613 --> 01:23:41,373
Speaker 4: Last one, last one lighton. Michael says, golly, that was

1407
01:23:41,453 --> 01:23:42,653
Speaker 4: one hell of a podcast.

1408
01:23:42,773 --> 01:23:45,573
Speaker 2: Good stuff exactly, Thank you missus producing.

1409
01:23:45,413 --> 01:23:47,333
Speaker 4: That encapsulates what everybody thought.

1410
01:23:47,173 --> 01:23:51,973
Speaker 2: Of deares pretty much. So we shall see you next week.

1411
01:23:52,093 --> 01:23:55,213
Speaker 2: You will, and no more bad news in the intervening

1412
01:23:55,293 --> 01:23:59,853
Speaker 2: periods if you don't mind, and so that will take

1413
01:23:59,933 --> 01:24:02,093
Speaker 2: us out for podcasts number two hundred and eighty two

1414
01:24:02,133 --> 01:24:04,733
Speaker 2: if you want to write to us Layton at newstalks

1415
01:24:04,773 --> 01:24:06,773
Speaker 2: ABE dot co dot mz or Carolyn with a y

1416
01:24:07,293 --> 01:24:11,973
Speaker 2: C Arol y N at Newstalk ZB dot co dot

1417
01:24:12,413 --> 01:24:15,733
Speaker 2: m z. And as always, there's only one thing left

1418
01:24:15,973 --> 01:24:19,093
Speaker 2: to say, Thank you for listening and we'll talk soon.

1419
01:24:27,013 --> 01:24:30,613
Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talk zed B. Listen

1420
01:24:30,733 --> 01:24:33,653
Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with

1421
01:24:33,813 --> 01:24:36,933
Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio