1 00:00:09,133 --> 00:00:12,013 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 2 00:00:12,413 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,813 --> 00:00:19,813 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,853 --> 00:00:24,933 Speaker 1: the information, all the debates of this now the Leighton 5 00:00:25,053 --> 00:00:27,733 Speaker 1: Smith Podcast powered by news talks it B. 6 00:00:28,093 --> 00:00:31,333 Speaker 2: Welcome to Podcasts two hundred and forty four. For June nineteen, 7 00:00:31,573 --> 00:00:36,413 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four, sociologist J R. Brunning guests on podcast 8 00:00:36,493 --> 00:00:39,613 Speaker 2: two four fourth and for very good reason. She has 9 00:00:39,693 --> 00:00:44,213 Speaker 2: forced her way into public attention through research and producing 10 00:00:44,213 --> 00:00:48,293 Speaker 2: papers of relevance. Her latest production, and it is a production, 11 00:00:48,613 --> 00:00:52,013 Speaker 2: a ninety page effort, is on a most important issue, 12 00:00:52,693 --> 00:00:58,133 Speaker 2: digital IDs and cbdc's, the combination of which threaten results 13 00:00:58,173 --> 00:01:02,293 Speaker 2: we should be aware of, but patently we're not. Let 14 00:01:02,293 --> 00:01:06,253 Speaker 2: me quote. CBDCs have not been pushed into policy space 15 00:01:06,373 --> 00:01:09,933 Speaker 2: by the citizens of nations, but by the big global 16 00:01:10,053 --> 00:01:14,333 Speaker 2: central banks and the fintech industry. There is compelling evidence 17 00:01:14,493 --> 00:01:19,093 Speaker 2: that power and interoperability of the digital infrastructure will not 18 00:01:19,133 --> 00:01:23,213 Speaker 2: only enhance government control and surveillance, but that it presents 19 00:01:23,413 --> 00:01:28,693 Speaker 2: a real risk to civil, constitutional, and human rights. This 20 00:01:28,853 --> 00:01:33,133 Speaker 2: tech is scalable, and it's out of sight because of 21 00:01:33,173 --> 00:01:36,373 Speaker 2: the mixture of interests involved, from the Reserve Bank of 22 00:01:36,413 --> 00:01:40,613 Speaker 2: New Zealand to allied government agencies, to the fintech sector 23 00:01:40,893 --> 00:01:45,173 Speaker 2: and RB and z's Central Bank colleagues, the decision making 24 00:01:45,253 --> 00:01:47,933 Speaker 2: processes and authorities will be difficult to track and assess 25 00:01:48,373 --> 00:01:51,733 Speaker 2: should something go wrong. Now, may I suggest that you 26 00:01:51,893 --> 00:01:55,293 Speaker 2: listen to this interview from beginning to end and then 27 00:01:55,333 --> 00:01:57,853 Speaker 2: look up a couple of the papers that she has produced. 28 00:01:58,213 --> 00:02:01,813 Speaker 2: But more details on all of that very shortly, but 29 00:02:01,933 --> 00:02:04,453 Speaker 2: just a note on this week's podcast. It is shorter 30 00:02:04,533 --> 00:02:08,133 Speaker 2: than normal. We are covering the interview and then we 31 00:02:08,173 --> 00:02:11,733 Speaker 2: do a shortish mail room. The reason for it is 32 00:02:11,773 --> 00:02:13,413 Speaker 2: that there has been a bit of sickness in the 33 00:02:13,453 --> 00:02:16,773 Speaker 2: house over the last week and hopefully you won't be 34 00:02:17,333 --> 00:02:20,813 Speaker 2: exposed to much of it. Due to the ability to 35 00:02:21,253 --> 00:02:24,013 Speaker 2: edit things, it's been a full time job, let me 36 00:02:24,053 --> 00:02:27,693 Speaker 2: tell you. Doing the interview, I had my microphone closed 37 00:02:28,133 --> 00:02:31,253 Speaker 2: most of the time. However, I think that it all 38 00:02:31,253 --> 00:02:34,493 Speaker 2: come out right in the end. Jr. Running is very 39 00:02:34,573 --> 00:02:39,013 Speaker 2: very good. Now. I wanted to mention that because it's 40 00:02:39,053 --> 00:02:41,893 Speaker 2: been a case of spending more time in bed, particularly 41 00:02:41,933 --> 00:02:44,853 Speaker 2: in the morning, and the other morning I heard the 42 00:02:44,893 --> 00:02:47,693 Speaker 2: news I think it was at about six point thirty 43 00:02:48,173 --> 00:02:50,733 Speaker 2: or something. Usually i'd be up by then. There was 44 00:02:50,733 --> 00:02:55,293 Speaker 2: the story of Jasindra Dern and her latest well whatever 45 00:02:55,293 --> 00:02:57,853 Speaker 2: you want to call it, and I immediately started rolling 46 00:02:57,893 --> 00:03:00,613 Speaker 2: words around of my head about what I would say 47 00:03:00,613 --> 00:03:04,133 Speaker 2: about it, and then I thought, no, let it go. 48 00:03:04,453 --> 00:03:08,253 Speaker 2: It's gone now who cares? And then reality set in. 49 00:03:08,413 --> 00:03:13,613 Speaker 2: Of course, reality set in because it's fine to forgive, 50 00:03:14,413 --> 00:03:17,133 Speaker 2: but when people are not repentant, when people carry on 51 00:03:17,293 --> 00:03:20,493 Speaker 2: in the same manner of what as to what they 52 00:03:20,573 --> 00:03:25,333 Speaker 2: have in the past, then there's no forgiveness to be had. 53 00:03:25,893 --> 00:03:28,213 Speaker 2: And I think the best way to cover this is 54 00:03:28,253 --> 00:03:31,653 Speaker 2: to read a letter to you that came in that 55 00:03:31,733 --> 00:03:37,813 Speaker 2: same morning at five point thirty three from Liz just 56 00:03:37,933 --> 00:03:39,653 Speaker 2: when we thought it was safe to go back into 57 00:03:39,653 --> 00:03:43,533 Speaker 2: the water exclamation mark. The extrag below is from just 58 00:03:43,613 --> 00:03:47,333 Speaker 2: sindro Render's Facebook page. It details how she has started 59 00:03:47,373 --> 00:03:51,653 Speaker 2: an excite quote an exciting new initiative called Field. It's 60 00:03:51,693 --> 00:03:57,013 Speaker 2: all about humanizing leadership with empathy and kindness. She also 61 00:03:57,053 --> 00:04:02,093 Speaker 2: says she's focused on unity without using fear to divide people. 62 00:04:02,733 --> 00:04:06,093 Speaker 2: For those of us who lived through her tyranny, who 63 00:04:06,173 --> 00:04:09,173 Speaker 2: lost their jobs, had loved ones locked out of New 64 00:04:09,253 --> 00:04:13,533 Speaker 2: Zealand or die alone. Her lack of self awareness and 65 00:04:13,613 --> 00:04:18,373 Speaker 2: blatant stupidity astounds me. Liz goes on, this is another 66 00:04:18,453 --> 00:04:20,893 Speaker 2: of her attempts to remain relevant and to suck the 67 00:04:21,053 --> 00:04:26,053 Speaker 2: ill informed and bewildered into supporting her socialist idealist agenda. 68 00:04:27,093 --> 00:04:29,813 Speaker 2: She is not and never will be remembered as a 69 00:04:29,893 --> 00:04:33,533 Speaker 2: kind and empathetic leader. She was driven by her ego 70 00:04:33,613 --> 00:04:38,093 Speaker 2: and vanity projects, and she almost single handedly destroyed New Zealand. 71 00:04:38,493 --> 00:04:41,893 Speaker 2: I sincerely hope that field is not her way of 72 00:04:41,933 --> 00:04:45,613 Speaker 2: working her way back onto the global political stage. Her 73 00:04:45,653 --> 00:04:49,573 Speaker 2: influence is dangerous, and the potential outcome of that influence 74 00:04:49,733 --> 00:04:53,093 Speaker 2: on the ill informed and those who are not aware 75 00:04:53,133 --> 00:04:56,453 Speaker 2: of what she did to our society would be devastating. 76 00:04:57,733 --> 00:05:02,413 Speaker 2: Extract below largely waffle with no substance, no change there 77 00:05:02,493 --> 00:05:05,773 Speaker 2: best wishes Liz. Now. Anybody who doesn't understand that's most 78 00:05:05,813 --> 00:05:09,613 Speaker 2: who doesn't understand what the word progressive actually means in 79 00:05:09,693 --> 00:05:14,533 Speaker 2: political terms, is at a loss to describe what her 80 00:05:14,533 --> 00:05:20,453 Speaker 2: politics are. Is very simple. Progressive progressivism is the road 81 00:05:20,893 --> 00:05:25,133 Speaker 2: to Marxism, to communism. If you like, I'm not making 82 00:05:25,173 --> 00:05:28,493 Speaker 2: it up. There's plenty of reference to it, but that's 83 00:05:28,533 --> 00:05:30,733 Speaker 2: the way that it is. And I think that what's 84 00:05:30,773 --> 00:05:33,693 Speaker 2: going on, what has been going on since her flight 85 00:05:33,813 --> 00:05:37,853 Speaker 2: from office, indicates that that is much the case, and 86 00:05:37,973 --> 00:05:49,213 Speaker 2: in just a moment, Jody Brunning. There are essential fat 87 00:05:49,293 --> 00:05:51,813 Speaker 2: nutrients that we need in our diet as the body 88 00:05:51,853 --> 00:05:55,293 Speaker 2: can't manufacture them. These are Omega three and Amiga six 89 00:05:55,333 --> 00:05:59,173 Speaker 2: fatty acids. Equism is a combination of fish oil and 90 00:05:59,293 --> 00:06:03,373 Speaker 2: virgin evening primrose oil, a formula that provides an excellent 91 00:06:03,493 --> 00:06:06,333 Speaker 2: source of Amiga three and Amiga six fatty acids in 92 00:06:06,413 --> 00:06:10,453 Speaker 2: their naturally existing ratios. The Omega six from evening primrose 93 00:06:10,493 --> 00:06:13,853 Speaker 2: oil assists the Omega three fish oil to be more effective. 94 00:06:14,133 --> 00:06:17,333 Speaker 2: Equisine is a high quality fish oil supplement enriched with 95 00:06:17,493 --> 00:06:21,693 Speaker 2: evening primrose oil that works synergistically for comprehensive health support. 96 00:06:22,053 --> 00:06:26,293 Speaker 2: Source from the deep sea sardines Anchovisa magril provide essential 97 00:06:26,373 --> 00:06:30,093 Speaker 2: Amega three fatty acids in their purest form without any 98 00:06:30,213 --> 00:06:33,533 Speaker 2: internal organs or toxins. Every batch is tested for its 99 00:06:33,573 --> 00:06:37,253 Speaker 2: purity before it's allowed to be sold. Equisine supports cells 100 00:06:37,293 --> 00:06:40,613 Speaker 2: to be flexible, so important to support healthy blood flow 101 00:06:41,093 --> 00:06:45,773 Speaker 2: and overall cardiovascular health. Equisine can support mood, balance and 102 00:06:45,893 --> 00:06:48,933 Speaker 2: mental clarity and focus in children, all the way to 103 00:06:49,053 --> 00:06:52,613 Speaker 2: supporting stiff joints, mental focus, brain health and healthy eyes 104 00:06:52,893 --> 00:06:55,693 Speaker 2: as we get older. Equisine is a premium high grade 105 00:06:55,693 --> 00:06:59,333 Speaker 2: fish and evening primrose oil to be taken in addition 106 00:06:59,413 --> 00:07:02,853 Speaker 2: to a healthy diet and is only available from pharmacies 107 00:07:02,933 --> 00:07:06,253 Speaker 2: and health stores. Always read the label and users directed 108 00:07:06,613 --> 00:07:15,213 Speaker 2: and if symptoms persist. Seainguid healthcare professional farmer Broker Auckland 109 00:07:19,973 --> 00:07:25,933 Speaker 2: Leighton Smith j R. Brunning is a consultant sociologist. Her 110 00:07:25,933 --> 00:07:30,053 Speaker 2: work explores governance, cultures, policy and the production of scientific 111 00:07:30,133 --> 00:07:34,333 Speaker 2: and technical knowledge. Brunning is a trustee of the Physicians 112 00:07:34,373 --> 00:07:38,653 Speaker 2: and Scientists for Global Responsibility New Zealand or. The address 113 00:07:38,733 --> 00:07:40,733 Speaker 2: is PSGR dot org dot enz. 114 00:07:41,173 --> 00:07:41,293 Speaker 3: Now. 115 00:07:41,293 --> 00:07:44,373 Speaker 2: If that sounds dull and boring, let me alert you 116 00:07:45,053 --> 00:07:48,493 Speaker 2: is not. Her most recent work involves digital ideas and 117 00:07:48,653 --> 00:07:52,693 Speaker 2: central bank digital currencies, about which there is growing public concern, 118 00:07:52,853 --> 00:07:57,613 Speaker 2: both individually but especially when coupled together. Now, if you're 119 00:07:57,733 --> 00:08:01,693 Speaker 2: trying to imagine why, think of the World Economic Forum 120 00:08:01,733 --> 00:08:05,853 Speaker 2: at the Reserve Bank of New Zealand as bedmates. Running's 121 00:08:05,893 --> 00:08:10,133 Speaker 2: major contribution is a ninety page paper stepping back from 122 00:08:10,173 --> 00:08:14,813 Speaker 2: the brink the programmable ledger, which I was term as challenging, 123 00:08:15,173 --> 00:08:18,693 Speaker 2: but there is a safety net. A nine page that 124 00:08:18,933 --> 00:08:21,853 Speaker 2: is one tenth size of the Monster report. A nine 125 00:08:21,893 --> 00:08:25,053 Speaker 2: page reduced version which is much easier for most of 126 00:08:25,093 --> 00:08:29,253 Speaker 2: us to grasp, is available. Details to follow shortly. Jr. 127 00:08:29,493 --> 00:08:32,533 Speaker 2: Jody Brunning, it's great to have you on the Latensmith podcast, 128 00:08:32,573 --> 00:08:33,173 Speaker 2: and I thank you. 129 00:08:33,573 --> 00:08:35,893 Speaker 3: Look, it's great to be here with you. Lton, thank 130 00:08:35,893 --> 00:08:36,933 Speaker 3: you for inviting me on. 131 00:08:37,253 --> 00:08:39,573 Speaker 2: You start by saying, this is on the ninth pager. 132 00:08:39,813 --> 00:08:43,853 Speaker 2: Don't be misled. Judging the risk from central bank digital 133 00:08:43,893 --> 00:08:48,013 Speaker 2: currencies in isolation is a rookie mistake. Did you know 134 00:08:48,053 --> 00:08:49,573 Speaker 2: it was going to be so long when you started? 135 00:08:50,053 --> 00:08:53,653 Speaker 3: Absolutely not that. And you're talking about a recent article 136 00:08:53,693 --> 00:08:56,973 Speaker 3: in the Daily Telegraph, so people just have to can 137 00:08:57,053 --> 00:09:00,453 Speaker 3: quickly search for that. Yeah. No, I didn't know it 138 00:09:00,493 --> 00:09:03,773 Speaker 3: would be that long. And this is because, as you 139 00:09:03,973 --> 00:09:08,893 Speaker 3: learn something about a very complex subject, was a very 140 00:09:08,933 --> 00:09:13,333 Speaker 3: open ended bit that needs to be addressed Otherwise people 141 00:09:13,413 --> 00:09:17,013 Speaker 3: are left questioning. I guess, so we had to sort 142 00:09:17,013 --> 00:09:20,573 Speaker 3: of keep talking about this issue and fleshing out those 143 00:09:20,733 --> 00:09:21,333 Speaker 3: those gaps. 144 00:09:21,373 --> 00:09:26,173 Speaker 2: I guess It's interesting you say that, because I probably 145 00:09:26,333 --> 00:09:28,693 Speaker 2: three years ago, no more than that'd be four years 146 00:09:28,693 --> 00:09:32,253 Speaker 2: ago now. I interviewed a professor from the Melbourne Institute 147 00:09:32,533 --> 00:09:35,733 Speaker 2: Melbourne Tech. He and two others had had written a 148 00:09:35,733 --> 00:09:40,053 Speaker 2: book that was on digitization and it was going to 149 00:09:40,053 --> 00:09:45,573 Speaker 2: be the release of freedom amongst the community in the world, 150 00:09:46,013 --> 00:09:49,173 Speaker 2: and got I got quite a bit of hefty feedback 151 00:09:49,293 --> 00:09:53,573 Speaker 2: on it, saying that this is a con they're not 152 00:09:53,733 --> 00:09:57,413 Speaker 2: they're not working on something to This was the suggestion, 153 00:09:57,533 --> 00:09:59,533 Speaker 2: they're not working on something to give us freedom, They're 154 00:09:59,573 --> 00:10:01,933 Speaker 2: working on something who's going to do exactly the opposite. 155 00:10:02,413 --> 00:10:05,293 Speaker 2: And I could see the point of the people who 156 00:10:05,293 --> 00:10:09,253 Speaker 2: were saying that, do you run into any of that, Well, 157 00:10:09,293 --> 00:10:11,853 Speaker 2: I guess we shouldn't be surprised. 158 00:10:11,973 --> 00:10:15,813 Speaker 3: I guess it's a very very ancient sort of things, 159 00:10:16,053 --> 00:10:20,573 Speaker 3: looking at power and aggregating power, and powerful people usually, 160 00:10:20,813 --> 00:10:23,533 Speaker 3: you know, they're not usually happy with one super yosh 161 00:10:23,573 --> 00:10:26,573 Speaker 3: or whatever. They normally like three or four, and so 162 00:10:27,373 --> 00:10:31,733 Speaker 3: I think it's pretty natural for powerful interests to want 163 00:10:31,733 --> 00:10:35,933 Speaker 3: to consolidate their interest and sort of the game of monopoly, 164 00:10:36,453 --> 00:10:41,533 Speaker 3: you know, is an ancient sort of concept, and we're 165 00:10:41,613 --> 00:10:44,813 Speaker 3: used to sort of the oligopolies or the oligarchs in 166 00:10:45,133 --> 00:10:49,453 Speaker 3: you know, old societies ruling and so it's not a 167 00:10:49,613 --> 00:10:52,253 Speaker 3: it's a very human thing to concentrate power. 168 00:10:52,333 --> 00:10:55,013 Speaker 2: And but we've never seen anything like it before like 169 00:10:55,093 --> 00:10:57,053 Speaker 2: what we're experiencing now where we're headed. 170 00:10:58,013 --> 00:11:00,493 Speaker 3: Yes, and so this is just just to let people 171 00:11:01,133 --> 00:11:05,413 Speaker 3: to help people understand. My undergraduates of BBS and I 172 00:11:05,493 --> 00:11:08,573 Speaker 3: have masters in sociology, and what I've been looking at 173 00:11:08,573 --> 00:11:12,613 Speaker 3: for the last decade or so is technology and science 174 00:11:12,733 --> 00:11:16,533 Speaker 3: and how we regulate technology and science, be it a 175 00:11:16,573 --> 00:11:21,293 Speaker 3: commercial formulation, a pesticide and nanotech. And now we're looking 176 00:11:21,333 --> 00:11:24,493 Speaker 3: at the silicon, we're looking at digital technologies. And so 177 00:11:24,573 --> 00:11:27,933 Speaker 3: the difference that we have now and this is why 178 00:11:27,973 --> 00:11:30,733 Speaker 3: I think PSDR we're happy to take this paper on 179 00:11:31,453 --> 00:11:36,133 Speaker 3: is its scalability potential, so we can use tech for 180 00:11:36,213 --> 00:11:41,013 Speaker 3: good to help us in our everyday lives. But the 181 00:11:41,173 --> 00:11:45,373 Speaker 3: trick is powerful interests. Also we'll see that that technology 182 00:11:45,413 --> 00:11:49,333 Speaker 3: is is very able to be scaled up and we 183 00:11:49,373 --> 00:11:51,933 Speaker 3: can get into how it can be scaled up for 184 00:11:52,213 --> 00:11:56,173 Speaker 3: their own interests. So it's the scalability potential. And we 185 00:11:56,413 --> 00:12:01,253 Speaker 3: put this together with the programmability of the digital currencies 186 00:12:01,253 --> 00:12:04,053 Speaker 3: that we're going to be talking about, and that changes 187 00:12:04,213 --> 00:12:04,693 Speaker 3: the game. 188 00:12:05,773 --> 00:12:08,693 Speaker 2: What's an alternative word for scale up or scale. 189 00:12:10,493 --> 00:12:14,613 Speaker 3: Well, sort of increase exponentially. 190 00:12:14,653 --> 00:12:18,093 Speaker 2: I guess I was thinking of those who can't quite 191 00:12:18,093 --> 00:12:19,213 Speaker 2: place the meaning. 192 00:12:19,693 --> 00:12:22,093 Speaker 3: Well, it's the the idea of going from the horse 193 00:12:22,093 --> 00:12:24,773 Speaker 3: and cart to the car. How could we, you know, 194 00:12:25,013 --> 00:12:28,853 Speaker 3: consider what would be the outcome of that? What? How 195 00:12:28,893 --> 00:12:30,773 Speaker 3: did we have to change all the rules on the 196 00:12:31,253 --> 00:12:33,893 Speaker 3: on the road to ensure that people weren't, you know, 197 00:12:34,133 --> 00:12:37,293 Speaker 3: rolling the car at every fast corner. So it's, you know, 198 00:12:37,373 --> 00:12:40,293 Speaker 3: scaling things up creates all these you know, it's the 199 00:12:40,373 --> 00:12:43,453 Speaker 3: no known, it's the unknowns, unown unknowns, it's you know, 200 00:12:43,533 --> 00:12:47,213 Speaker 3: it's it's we just cannot And this is why it's 201 00:12:47,213 --> 00:12:50,173 Speaker 3: a very much a governance issue, and y p SR 202 00:12:50,253 --> 00:12:53,253 Speaker 3: are hoping that, you know, people from the school of governors, 203 00:12:54,813 --> 00:12:59,533 Speaker 3: legal experts in public law, constitutional and administrative law, will 204 00:12:59,573 --> 00:13:02,693 Speaker 3: become interested in this. It's it's a very big issue 205 00:13:02,773 --> 00:13:04,333 Speaker 3: because of the scalable potential. 206 00:13:04,453 --> 00:13:07,733 Speaker 2: I want to ask you a blunt question at this point, 207 00:13:08,453 --> 00:13:12,733 Speaker 2: which I might have left till later. Considering those organizations 208 00:13:13,013 --> 00:13:16,053 Speaker 2: in the world who are backing this and promoting it, 209 00:13:16,333 --> 00:13:19,933 Speaker 2: and some of them dishonestly, Is there any real way 210 00:13:20,213 --> 00:13:24,813 Speaker 2: that little Old New Zealand can control its own future 211 00:13:25,293 --> 00:13:29,533 Speaker 2: by escaping what might be coming down the track? 212 00:13:30,173 --> 00:13:34,613 Speaker 3: Well, if we're simply talking about central bank digital currencies CBDCs, 213 00:13:34,813 --> 00:13:38,893 Speaker 3: we can very easily step away from that. And of 214 00:13:38,933 --> 00:13:43,573 Speaker 3: course the issue here is around the public waking up 215 00:13:43,653 --> 00:13:47,853 Speaker 3: and being courageous enough to share information that looks critically 216 00:13:48,373 --> 00:13:51,813 Speaker 3: at how these technologies can be scaled up. And I 217 00:13:51,853 --> 00:13:56,813 Speaker 3: think we're seeing some examples of countries pausing or moving away. 218 00:13:57,573 --> 00:14:01,613 Speaker 3: And it's very clear that all internationally. When you see, 219 00:14:01,653 --> 00:14:06,853 Speaker 3: for example, the CBDC, you know, the Reserve Bank of 220 00:14:06,893 --> 00:14:09,493 Speaker 3: New Zealand, take go and have a look on CBDC 221 00:14:11,173 --> 00:14:13,653 Speaker 3: website and it will show you how many countries are involved. 222 00:14:13,653 --> 00:14:17,733 Speaker 3: And of course the cbd website is controlled and overseen 223 00:14:17,773 --> 00:14:21,253 Speaker 3: by the Boston Consulting Group, so we see that all 224 00:14:21,293 --> 00:14:26,853 Speaker 3: the main Wow Aunt, CBDC is awesome. All those and 225 00:14:26,893 --> 00:14:30,173 Speaker 3: this is where PSR are talking. All those sort of 226 00:14:30,173 --> 00:14:33,893 Speaker 3: policy papers, those white papers have all been produced by 227 00:14:33,653 --> 00:14:38,053 Speaker 3: the organizations with the financial and dare I say political 228 00:14:38,213 --> 00:14:43,053 Speaker 3: conflicts of interest. So because most of the and we 229 00:14:43,093 --> 00:14:47,053 Speaker 3: can call that propaganda as well that has been produced 230 00:14:47,653 --> 00:14:50,413 Speaker 3: that they hope that will be adopted about by our 231 00:14:50,453 --> 00:14:54,293 Speaker 3: governments and then pushed through really quickly, is by these 232 00:14:54,893 --> 00:14:59,733 Speaker 3: organizations with the conflicts of interest. The people of New Zealand, 233 00:15:00,293 --> 00:15:03,053 Speaker 3: you know, they can say we don't actually want to 234 00:15:03,093 --> 00:15:05,613 Speaker 3: do this anymore. It is possible. 235 00:15:06,253 --> 00:15:10,413 Speaker 2: Can I offer my opinion that it's possible. But it's 236 00:15:10,453 --> 00:15:12,653 Speaker 2: only possible if there is a is a if there 237 00:15:12,733 --> 00:15:16,093 Speaker 2: is a very large ground swell. And at this point 238 00:15:16,173 --> 00:15:17,853 Speaker 2: of time I struggle to see that. 239 00:15:18,533 --> 00:15:22,653 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's because I mean what we have now Unfortunately, 240 00:15:22,773 --> 00:15:25,253 Speaker 3: you know, in April there was an RB and Z 241 00:15:25,493 --> 00:15:29,053 Speaker 3: you know Digital Cash in New Zealand puff piece and 242 00:15:29,093 --> 00:15:33,133 Speaker 3: what we see is a very obsequious legacy media that 243 00:15:33,333 --> 00:15:36,973 Speaker 3: will not critically analyze this. And one of the big, 244 00:15:37,293 --> 00:15:40,173 Speaker 3: the big takeaways that we want people to understand from 245 00:15:40,213 --> 00:15:43,693 Speaker 3: our paper is that there is not a single academic 246 00:15:43,813 --> 00:15:48,373 Speaker 3: expert or an expert that is lacking you know, the 247 00:15:48,413 --> 00:15:51,053 Speaker 3: financial conflicts of interest, the complex of interests having worked 248 00:15:51,053 --> 00:15:54,453 Speaker 3: with a management consultancy firm or you know, a big 249 00:15:54,453 --> 00:15:57,053 Speaker 3: global bank. There is not a single expert in New 250 00:15:57,133 --> 00:16:03,053 Speaker 3: Zealand talking about cpdc's critically and the potential for these 251 00:16:03,093 --> 00:16:07,653 Speaker 3: technologies and the risk of what might happen should there 252 00:16:07,693 --> 00:16:11,453 Speaker 3: be what's called unified ledger in time. So there's a 253 00:16:11,653 --> 00:16:14,493 Speaker 3: there's a policy creep that can happen that can further, 254 00:16:16,173 --> 00:16:18,973 Speaker 3: you know, push policy into the arms of the big 255 00:16:19,173 --> 00:16:22,733 Speaker 3: big banks. So this is the this is the and 256 00:16:22,733 --> 00:16:26,613 Speaker 3: this is what I've observed in my work looking at 257 00:16:26,813 --> 00:16:31,693 Speaker 3: policy and regulation and new technologies is the information supporting 258 00:16:31,773 --> 00:16:35,893 Speaker 3: the safety and efficacy of these technologies is produced by 259 00:16:35,973 --> 00:16:40,053 Speaker 3: the very institutions with the conflicts of interest and and 260 00:16:40,213 --> 00:16:42,493 Speaker 3: part of that real problem later and this is what 261 00:16:42,693 --> 00:16:46,453 Speaker 3: my masters looked at, is the difficulty scientists and researchers 262 00:16:46,533 --> 00:16:53,653 Speaker 3: have in accessing funding to research issues that is contrary 263 00:16:53,813 --> 00:16:58,813 Speaker 3: or that might contradict the position of the government of 264 00:16:58,893 --> 00:17:02,493 Speaker 3: the day. And so it's very difficult for any scientist 265 00:17:02,613 --> 00:17:05,573 Speaker 3: or researcher to get long term funding that is not 266 00:17:05,733 --> 00:17:12,453 Speaker 3: aligned with the interests of the ministry that is responsible 267 00:17:12,453 --> 00:17:16,253 Speaker 3: for funding science. That's the Ministry for Business and Innovation 268 00:17:16,853 --> 00:17:21,253 Speaker 3: and Employment. So mb is responsible for funding science. And 269 00:17:22,373 --> 00:17:26,133 Speaker 3: that is a really big problem. So that scientists are 270 00:17:26,213 --> 00:17:28,973 Speaker 3: cought and researchers are caught by the short and curlyes 271 00:17:29,293 --> 00:17:34,133 Speaker 3: because they're financial because their funding is so precarious today, does. 272 00:17:33,933 --> 00:17:36,813 Speaker 2: It make it worse that we are driving through an 273 00:17:36,853 --> 00:17:40,293 Speaker 2: economic period that has put us in a very very 274 00:17:40,493 --> 00:17:41,413 Speaker 2: difficult position. 275 00:17:42,013 --> 00:17:46,013 Speaker 3: Well, well, I mean you have this sort of combined forces. 276 00:17:46,053 --> 00:17:49,173 Speaker 3: You've got the lack of the freedom, of lack of 277 00:17:49,213 --> 00:17:53,613 Speaker 3: academic freedom in New Zealand. You've got the obsequious sort 278 00:17:53,613 --> 00:17:57,093 Speaker 3: of legacy media that doesn't have the resources or the 279 00:17:57,213 --> 00:18:01,893 Speaker 3: somehow the inclination for long form critical journalism. So we've got, 280 00:18:02,333 --> 00:18:04,733 Speaker 3: you know, and they're meant to be the fullest stay. 281 00:18:05,773 --> 00:18:07,773 Speaker 3: Then if you think that, if you think about the 282 00:18:07,773 --> 00:18:12,453 Speaker 3: scientists researchers that can't independently research, who do judges go 283 00:18:12,573 --> 00:18:17,133 Speaker 3: to when there's a decision to be made or when 284 00:18:17,173 --> 00:18:20,653 Speaker 3: people are calling for advice. So we see that the 285 00:18:20,773 --> 00:18:24,773 Speaker 3: judiciary are always going to be a little bit captured 286 00:18:24,813 --> 00:18:30,333 Speaker 3: by the executive, by the ministries and the agencies because 287 00:18:30,373 --> 00:18:35,693 Speaker 3: they're producing the information inverted commas, evidence, the policy papers, 288 00:18:35,693 --> 00:18:39,173 Speaker 3: the risk assessments. Then you add to the fact that 289 00:18:39,213 --> 00:18:46,773 Speaker 3: there's an economic downturn, and the economic downturn provides if 290 00:18:46,853 --> 00:18:49,933 Speaker 3: we lack sort of that information about how we make 291 00:18:50,053 --> 00:18:54,653 Speaker 3: cash or the potential about of fiscal policy and the 292 00:18:54,693 --> 00:18:58,093 Speaker 3: appropriations process. If we just only default and think that 293 00:18:58,133 --> 00:19:00,653 Speaker 3: we need a UBI and that can only be made 294 00:19:00,733 --> 00:19:05,093 Speaker 3: through the retail the seed, you know, sorry, the central bank, 295 00:19:05,133 --> 00:19:07,813 Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank of New Zealand having the power to 296 00:19:08,973 --> 00:19:13,093 Speaker 3: retail currencies. People think that's the only way we can 297 00:19:13,133 --> 00:19:17,693 Speaker 3: actually solve financial problems. And we're in deep doo dooos, 298 00:19:18,053 --> 00:19:22,333 Speaker 3: you know, So that the economic downturn is an antecedent 299 00:19:22,493 --> 00:19:26,893 Speaker 3: I think, excuse my pronunciation, it's sort of alongside these 300 00:19:26,933 --> 00:19:29,213 Speaker 3: other problems, but it's not the biggest problem, you know. 301 00:19:29,773 --> 00:19:32,613 Speaker 3: And one of the interesting things I think is that 302 00:19:33,533 --> 00:19:35,253 Speaker 3: we need to understand that the Reserve Bank of New 303 00:19:35,333 --> 00:19:39,173 Speaker 3: Zealand has gone through, as Christian Hawksby stayed in twenty 304 00:19:39,213 --> 00:19:42,893 Speaker 3: twenty two, the most significant changes since the Reserve Bank 305 00:19:42,933 --> 00:19:47,213 Speaker 3: of New Zealand reforms of the nineteen eighties. In twenty 306 00:19:47,333 --> 00:19:50,253 Speaker 3: twenty four at the he said to the Financial and 307 00:19:50,493 --> 00:19:53,933 Speaker 3: Expenditure Committee, you know, they're going through this massive process 308 00:19:53,973 --> 00:20:00,773 Speaker 3: of transformation and modernization. So the Reserve Bank has, interestingly, 309 00:20:01,453 --> 00:20:05,933 Speaker 3: during the depths of COVID, when we have been really 310 00:20:05,973 --> 00:20:09,373 Speaker 3: distracted with COVID, we've been very distracted. The people that 311 00:20:09,453 --> 00:20:15,653 Speaker 3: are interested in politics or interested in justice and sort 312 00:20:15,693 --> 00:20:19,653 Speaker 3: of civil constitutional human rights have been busy looking at 313 00:20:19,813 --> 00:20:26,333 Speaker 3: what has been happening in terms of COVID legislation. Several acts, 314 00:20:26,893 --> 00:20:30,813 Speaker 3: several bills have been passed that have been part of 315 00:20:30,853 --> 00:20:35,973 Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank of New Zealand's transformation process. You know, 316 00:20:36,213 --> 00:20:40,413 Speaker 3: one of the bills had the Monetary Policy Amendment Act 317 00:20:40,453 --> 00:20:44,613 Speaker 3: had only fourteen submissions. The Financial Market Infrastructures Act in 318 00:20:45,213 --> 00:20:49,213 Speaker 3: twenty twenty one had nine submissions to it, The Reserve 319 00:20:49,253 --> 00:20:52,053 Speaker 3: Bank of New Zealand Act thirty one submissions, the Deposit 320 00:20:52,133 --> 00:20:57,253 Speaker 3: Takers Act twenty forty three submissions. So the Reserve Bank 321 00:20:57,253 --> 00:21:01,253 Speaker 3: of New Zealand has gone through the most significant transformation 322 00:21:01,413 --> 00:21:05,053 Speaker 3: process through all this new legislation, and you look at 323 00:21:05,613 --> 00:21:08,613 Speaker 3: how few people have sort of known about it, ormitted 324 00:21:08,653 --> 00:21:12,053 Speaker 3: to it. And so we look, we again turned to 325 00:21:12,133 --> 00:21:15,813 Speaker 3: the conventional legacy media that there's only been sort of 326 00:21:15,813 --> 00:21:18,773 Speaker 3: reporting of this is what the Reserve Bank's you know, 327 00:21:18,973 --> 00:21:22,813 Speaker 3: doing in a happy, little puffy, puffy pand you know, 328 00:21:22,973 --> 00:21:28,093 Speaker 3: there's there's nothing critical critically looking at all this legislation 329 00:21:28,333 --> 00:21:31,733 Speaker 3: and picking it apart. So, you know, Michael Riddell has 330 00:21:31,813 --> 00:21:34,333 Speaker 3: been on poaking. Cassandra been doing quite a bit of 331 00:21:34,373 --> 00:21:39,333 Speaker 3: work criticizing the RB and Z, but it's we've had 332 00:21:39,333 --> 00:21:43,773 Speaker 3: such an amazing time and it's really surprising that that 333 00:21:43,853 --> 00:21:46,013 Speaker 3: in particular has occurred over COVID. 334 00:21:47,013 --> 00:21:50,453 Speaker 2: The Reserve Bank management reminds me very much of the 335 00:21:51,733 --> 00:21:55,293 Speaker 2: military governance in the United States at the moment. And 336 00:21:55,333 --> 00:21:57,773 Speaker 2: if you don't know what I mean, they have They 337 00:21:57,813 --> 00:22:03,573 Speaker 2: have launched themselves into different directions, both of them different directions, 338 00:22:03,573 --> 00:22:08,053 Speaker 2: but both of them woke and woke to an ultimate degree, 339 00:22:08,573 --> 00:22:09,253 Speaker 2: I think. 340 00:22:11,093 --> 00:22:16,973 Speaker 3: Yes. So the reason people are traditionally now and let's 341 00:22:17,013 --> 00:22:21,053 Speaker 3: just preface this latent because because I'm a sociologist and 342 00:22:21,133 --> 00:22:23,893 Speaker 3: I've been looking at this in depth over the say, 343 00:22:23,893 --> 00:22:26,133 Speaker 3: the last three or four months, But I am very 344 00:22:26,133 --> 00:22:29,773 Speaker 3: happy for people to criticize me if I am incorrect, 345 00:22:30,173 --> 00:22:32,373 Speaker 3: But as long as we have a discussion about it, 346 00:22:33,133 --> 00:22:35,973 Speaker 3: that is a wider, broader discussion looking at the big, 347 00:22:36,093 --> 00:22:38,893 Speaker 3: big issues. So when you talk about them being woke, 348 00:22:39,533 --> 00:22:43,373 Speaker 3: being woke means they're taking on this is what I 349 00:22:43,373 --> 00:22:48,013 Speaker 3: aren't My understanding is they're taking on political issues or 350 00:22:48,133 --> 00:22:52,453 Speaker 3: values that might not represent the average key way. And 351 00:22:52,573 --> 00:22:56,973 Speaker 3: of course, the reason people have historically trusted central banks 352 00:22:57,053 --> 00:22:59,733 Speaker 3: or the Reserve Bank of New Zealand is because they don't. 353 00:23:00,293 --> 00:23:04,573 Speaker 3: They don't they're very constrained in what they can politically 354 00:23:04,653 --> 00:23:08,333 Speaker 3: do because they can print money. They've been very construing. 355 00:23:08,533 --> 00:23:12,093 Speaker 3: So if all of a sudden their powers in encompass 356 00:23:12,453 --> 00:23:18,053 Speaker 3: climate change, which this has happened, that is a political 357 00:23:18,213 --> 00:23:22,253 Speaker 3: shift and I think people need to understand that. So 358 00:23:22,293 --> 00:23:27,573 Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank of New Zealand has actually more powers 359 00:23:28,173 --> 00:23:31,253 Speaker 3: than the average and we discussed this in our paper. 360 00:23:31,493 --> 00:23:33,613 Speaker 3: The Reserve Bank of New Zealand has more powers than 361 00:23:33,693 --> 00:23:37,813 Speaker 3: the average central bank. So it's not only responsible for 362 00:23:37,973 --> 00:23:42,493 Speaker 3: monetary policy, so you know, the ocr the central Bank 363 00:23:42,573 --> 00:23:47,013 Speaker 3: is a financial markets regulator responsible for oversight of the 364 00:23:47,053 --> 00:23:52,253 Speaker 3: financial system and prudential regulation of banks, deposit takers and 365 00:23:52,373 --> 00:23:57,573 Speaker 3: insurance companies. As well as that the Reserve Bank engaged 366 00:23:57,613 --> 00:24:01,453 Speaker 3: in large scale asset purchases and over COVID. And that's 367 00:24:01,493 --> 00:24:04,893 Speaker 3: interesting because we think there's been about eleven billion dollars 368 00:24:04,893 --> 00:24:09,973 Speaker 3: in losses there. And then interesting with this Financial Market 369 00:24:10,013 --> 00:24:13,493 Speaker 3: Infrastructures Act in twenty twenty one, they introduced into this 370 00:24:13,613 --> 00:24:19,213 Speaker 3: legislation the concept of the systemically important financial institution so 371 00:24:19,253 --> 00:24:23,533 Speaker 3: they si they and that's the too big to Fail 372 00:24:23,653 --> 00:24:28,933 Speaker 3: clauses that you're seeing coming through America that were introduced 373 00:24:28,933 --> 00:24:33,973 Speaker 3: after the global financial crisis. So they're really broad powers 374 00:24:34,293 --> 00:24:37,613 Speaker 3: are not just all those responsibilities. But we're seeing sort 375 00:24:37,653 --> 00:24:41,533 Speaker 3: of we're seeing the political things come in the DEI, 376 00:24:42,573 --> 00:24:48,213 Speaker 3: the climate change, and their budgets doubled as well. So 377 00:24:48,853 --> 00:24:53,453 Speaker 3: this is extremely worrying because when you listen to the 378 00:24:53,453 --> 00:24:57,613 Speaker 3: Select Committee February twenty twenty four, people are sort of 379 00:24:57,813 --> 00:25:04,133 Speaker 3: asking the Bank's questions as if they're an organization that 380 00:25:04,173 --> 00:25:08,293 Speaker 3: should make political decisions. I think people do not understand 381 00:25:08,493 --> 00:25:12,413 Speaker 3: how important it is that that is the role of parliament, 382 00:25:12,693 --> 00:25:17,453 Speaker 3: not unelected bureaucrats sitting in their own office, you know, 383 00:25:17,493 --> 00:25:20,133 Speaker 3: sitting in offices that can't actually get voted out of office. 384 00:25:20,573 --> 00:25:23,893 Speaker 2: So we're talking to the administrative state, and the administrative 385 00:25:23,973 --> 00:25:27,573 Speaker 2: state has has has made huge in roads into many 386 00:25:27,573 --> 00:25:30,933 Speaker 2: aspects of life. And I refer again to the United 387 00:25:30,933 --> 00:25:35,453 Speaker 2: States where where basically it saw its birth. But here 388 00:25:35,813 --> 00:25:39,613 Speaker 2: the best example that I can utilize is Auckland Transport, 389 00:25:41,333 --> 00:25:43,813 Speaker 2: who have taken on roles that they were never they 390 00:25:43,813 --> 00:25:47,493 Speaker 2: were never associated with, not supposed to be associated with 391 00:25:47,813 --> 00:25:54,333 Speaker 2: extended their powers and during the period specifically that you 392 00:25:54,453 --> 00:25:57,173 Speaker 2: refer to the COVID period, they were they had free 393 00:25:57,173 --> 00:25:59,813 Speaker 2: hand to just do what they want. And we know, 394 00:26:00,533 --> 00:26:05,133 Speaker 2: we know that they're under inspection because various people, starting 395 00:26:05,173 --> 00:26:08,333 Speaker 2: with I suppose the latest mayor of Auckland, have been 396 00:26:08,413 --> 00:26:12,333 Speaker 2: in assaulting them. Not to forget one or two podcasters, 397 00:26:12,853 --> 00:26:17,253 Speaker 2: but the point being that that is one example, but 398 00:26:17,373 --> 00:26:20,453 Speaker 2: there are lots of others, including I think the medical field. 399 00:26:21,693 --> 00:26:25,133 Speaker 3: Absolutely, and so I think the the other problem is 400 00:26:25,133 --> 00:26:30,293 Speaker 3: that these agencies and these ministries become so big that 401 00:26:30,413 --> 00:26:34,573 Speaker 3: they become this rolling ball getting even bigger and bigger. 402 00:26:35,053 --> 00:26:40,293 Speaker 3: And I am a very big fan of a working 403 00:26:40,373 --> 00:26:45,893 Speaker 3: democratic government. But when the information that is supporting their 404 00:26:45,893 --> 00:26:49,533 Speaker 3: policy agendas is solely being produced by the agencies who 405 00:26:49,773 --> 00:26:54,413 Speaker 3: will only grow bigger, then that doesn't work. So, you know, 406 00:26:54,453 --> 00:26:56,213 Speaker 3: we have this is why we have the problem that 407 00:26:56,693 --> 00:27:00,413 Speaker 3: science is now controlled by the Ministry for Business and Innovation. 408 00:27:00,933 --> 00:27:03,453 Speaker 3: This is why we have the problem that agriculture is 409 00:27:03,853 --> 00:27:08,653 Speaker 3: you know, funding for agricultural research is controlled by the 410 00:27:08,693 --> 00:27:11,533 Speaker 3: agency who likes innovation and patents. So we're not going 411 00:27:11,573 --> 00:27:16,333 Speaker 3: to solve drought problems when the only money that they 412 00:27:16,333 --> 00:27:18,213 Speaker 3: want to spend on research has got to be tied 413 00:27:18,293 --> 00:27:22,573 Speaker 3: to a patent. And you look at for example, education, 414 00:27:23,253 --> 00:27:27,253 Speaker 3: you know, education has been you know, the curriculum development 415 00:27:27,293 --> 00:27:31,813 Speaker 3: is core core, and that's I think, I believe in NGO. 416 00:27:32,213 --> 00:27:35,973 Speaker 3: So if you had, if you had teachers being responsible 417 00:27:35,973 --> 00:27:39,853 Speaker 3: for example, for their own you know, for improving and 418 00:27:40,333 --> 00:27:44,373 Speaker 3: upskilling the curriculum, you would actually have more fighting more. 419 00:27:44,573 --> 00:27:47,693 Speaker 3: It would be slower, it would be difficult, but it 420 00:27:47,733 --> 00:27:50,973 Speaker 3: would be the people who are who have the most 421 00:27:51,013 --> 00:27:53,213 Speaker 3: expertise doing it. This is the same so science, but 422 00:27:53,333 --> 00:27:57,573 Speaker 3: right now you're getting these agencies creating their own agendas 423 00:27:57,573 --> 00:28:01,013 Speaker 3: and so Jeffrey Palmer has talked about this recently and 424 00:28:01,053 --> 00:28:04,733 Speaker 3: he said, what happens is the parliamentarians they've got no funding, 425 00:28:04,773 --> 00:28:09,293 Speaker 3: they've got no research resources, so they must, you know, 426 00:28:09,813 --> 00:28:14,173 Speaker 3: divert genuflect to the big agencies because that's where all 427 00:28:14,213 --> 00:28:17,173 Speaker 3: the information and the knowledge is coming from. This is 428 00:28:17,213 --> 00:28:19,493 Speaker 3: a very big problem in a democracy. 429 00:28:20,453 --> 00:28:22,613 Speaker 2: Is democracy under a threat in this country? Do you think? 430 00:28:23,733 --> 00:28:29,933 Speaker 3: Absolutely? But it's not dead. But we very much people 431 00:28:30,053 --> 00:28:34,413 Speaker 3: need and my interest is information. So I see how 432 00:28:34,453 --> 00:28:39,373 Speaker 3: the flows of information then can perpetuate power or the 433 00:28:39,413 --> 00:28:43,933 Speaker 3: flows of information can help us understand situations and chat 434 00:28:44,013 --> 00:28:48,573 Speaker 3: and wage war and debate and get cross with each other. 435 00:28:48,613 --> 00:28:50,613 Speaker 3: But the most important thing is that we should be 436 00:28:50,693 --> 00:28:55,013 Speaker 3: actually talking about all these different issues. And this is 437 00:28:55,053 --> 00:28:58,533 Speaker 3: why you know, pstr and Zena have released this paper, 438 00:28:58,573 --> 00:29:01,773 Speaker 3: because if we don't talk about the issues, this is China, 439 00:29:01,893 --> 00:29:05,453 Speaker 3: this is you know, Russia in its darkest days. It's 440 00:29:05,613 --> 00:29:10,133 Speaker 3: an authoritarian state does not let the people you know 441 00:29:10,333 --> 00:29:13,693 Speaker 3: chat and debate, and neither does it let they're elected 442 00:29:13,933 --> 00:29:18,973 Speaker 3: members debate and challenge each other. And we're moving, I believe, 443 00:29:19,053 --> 00:29:24,013 Speaker 3: into a very polarized environment. And when we're polarized, we 444 00:29:24,093 --> 00:29:26,613 Speaker 3: go into our corners, and we've got to come out 445 00:29:26,653 --> 00:29:29,693 Speaker 3: of those corners and know that even if it's really difficult, 446 00:29:29,853 --> 00:29:33,173 Speaker 3: we've we've got to keep talking to each other. And 447 00:29:33,213 --> 00:29:38,293 Speaker 3: the problems of governance are never black and white. They're complex, 448 00:29:38,853 --> 00:29:43,853 Speaker 3: they're nebulous. You know, they involve going upstream into you know, 449 00:29:44,053 --> 00:29:49,173 Speaker 3: into I guess environments that often have lots of political 450 00:29:49,173 --> 00:29:54,693 Speaker 3: and financial conflicts where you'll see large, powerful interests. And 451 00:29:54,853 --> 00:29:57,653 Speaker 3: that's a little bit why you know, often you get 452 00:29:58,453 --> 00:30:02,333 Speaker 3: when you start asking questions about sort of technologies you 453 00:30:02,333 --> 00:30:06,733 Speaker 3: know from nanotech to GM to to pesticides to the 454 00:30:06,813 --> 00:30:10,053 Speaker 3: tech we're talking about today. It's very easy for people 455 00:30:10,053 --> 00:30:12,693 Speaker 3: to call you are you're a team foil where you're 456 00:30:12,733 --> 00:30:17,013 Speaker 3: a conspiracy theorists like, well, actually, I think it's incumbent 457 00:30:17,253 --> 00:30:20,653 Speaker 3: upon us ever since, ever since they put spikes on 458 00:30:21,253 --> 00:30:24,973 Speaker 3: you know, heels to make horses go faster, to say, 459 00:30:25,093 --> 00:30:28,133 Speaker 3: what what what is this tech achieving? Is it going 460 00:30:28,213 --> 00:30:29,893 Speaker 3: to make the horse go faster or they're going to 461 00:30:29,893 --> 00:30:32,693 Speaker 3: get some you know, saws in the sides of their flanks? 462 00:30:32,773 --> 00:30:35,573 Speaker 3: You know, So we actually always have to ask how 463 00:30:35,613 --> 00:30:39,253 Speaker 3: how is the tech going to support us and make 464 00:30:39,333 --> 00:30:43,333 Speaker 3: human you know, society, tribe, and perhaps we're actually the 465 00:30:44,053 --> 00:30:47,813 Speaker 3: tech we're seeing today, we're not thriving more so maybe 466 00:30:47,853 --> 00:30:50,173 Speaker 3: we can ask what is going wrong here? 467 00:30:50,413 --> 00:30:54,733 Speaker 2: Have you in your in your work spend any time 468 00:30:54,893 --> 00:30:59,733 Speaker 2: on digital currencies per se bitcoin specifically. 469 00:31:00,893 --> 00:31:03,733 Speaker 3: No, I listen, look, I try to be really informed. 470 00:31:03,773 --> 00:31:06,693 Speaker 3: I listened to a lot of podcasts my you know, 471 00:31:06,733 --> 00:31:10,373 Speaker 3: my husband's a software engineers, so you know, talking about 472 00:31:10,413 --> 00:31:14,213 Speaker 3: this sort of tech is not outside our spectrum of conversation, 473 00:31:14,413 --> 00:31:17,973 Speaker 3: but we haven't and so I try to be really informed, 474 00:31:17,973 --> 00:31:21,493 Speaker 3: but not not really because I guess I only have 475 00:31:21,613 --> 00:31:24,933 Speaker 3: so many hours in the day, so you know, I've 476 00:31:24,973 --> 00:31:27,933 Speaker 3: been listening. You know, your excellent interviews with John Orcock 477 00:31:28,453 --> 00:31:32,413 Speaker 3: are really great for helping people understand about bitcoin. I 478 00:31:33,133 --> 00:31:37,813 Speaker 3: guess my question, Laighton, I am. You know, like I 479 00:31:37,933 --> 00:31:41,213 Speaker 3: didn't grow up you know, in that happy family with 480 00:31:41,213 --> 00:31:45,493 Speaker 3: the mummy and you know, and everything been great. So 481 00:31:45,653 --> 00:31:49,093 Speaker 3: I was lucky enough to be an at home mum 482 00:31:49,213 --> 00:31:51,813 Speaker 3: and you know, then started working when they were younger. 483 00:31:51,853 --> 00:31:56,773 Speaker 3: And on this my situation always is, you know, how 484 00:31:56,813 --> 00:31:59,093 Speaker 3: can a woman that is working, probably a little few 485 00:31:59,213 --> 00:32:02,213 Speaker 3: more hours because she's got to do the cleaning, do this, 486 00:32:02,253 --> 00:32:05,733 Speaker 3: do that? How can she be as informed as a man? 487 00:32:06,093 --> 00:32:10,453 Speaker 3: How can she access you know, if bitcoin? Bitcoin has 488 00:32:10,493 --> 00:32:16,013 Speaker 3: to work whatever social strata you're on, whatever education level 489 00:32:16,053 --> 00:32:20,293 Speaker 3: you're on, it has to actually work similarly for females 490 00:32:20,293 --> 00:32:24,053 Speaker 3: and males. And right now I don't see like how 491 00:32:24,213 --> 00:32:30,853 Speaker 3: bitcoin is equally as accessible, you know. And and this 492 00:32:30,933 --> 00:32:33,333 Speaker 3: is I guess this is my point why I see 493 00:32:33,373 --> 00:32:37,773 Speaker 3: governments as being really important. It's the single woman, you know, 494 00:32:37,933 --> 00:32:41,333 Speaker 3: in the supermarket. Can she afford good quality meat, good 495 00:32:41,413 --> 00:32:45,693 Speaker 3: quality of veggies? How do we create a social structure 496 00:32:45,733 --> 00:32:48,133 Speaker 3: that means we're going to thrive and that our young 497 00:32:48,213 --> 00:32:50,653 Speaker 3: people are going to grow up healthy and strong. And 498 00:32:50,733 --> 00:32:53,733 Speaker 3: so I guess I keep coming back to the Bitcoin 499 00:32:53,773 --> 00:32:56,333 Speaker 3: seems to be the really great if you're a guy 500 00:32:56,373 --> 00:32:58,293 Speaker 3: and you can do a ton of research and you 501 00:32:58,373 --> 00:33:01,253 Speaker 3: know a lot about it. But that's sort of that's 502 00:33:01,013 --> 00:33:03,693 Speaker 3: a that's my kind of thought for bitcoin really at 503 00:33:03,693 --> 00:33:04,093 Speaker 3: the moment. 504 00:33:04,213 --> 00:33:07,893 Speaker 2: But it's well, I think I'm not in a position 505 00:33:07,973 --> 00:33:10,533 Speaker 2: to you with you. Well I suppose I could be, 506 00:33:10,613 --> 00:33:14,453 Speaker 2: but I'm not. I just want to quote you quickly. 507 00:33:14,813 --> 00:33:17,493 Speaker 2: This is a little outside what we're here to discuss, 508 00:33:17,573 --> 00:33:22,533 Speaker 2: but there is a connection obviously. Fred Krueger quote bitcoin 509 00:33:22,693 --> 00:33:28,013 Speaker 2: is going to replace Fiat. In a recent interview in Entrepreneur, 510 00:33:28,213 --> 00:33:31,853 Speaker 2: investor and mathematician Fred Krueger said bitcoin is going to 511 00:33:31,853 --> 00:33:35,053 Speaker 2: replace theat According to Kruger, FIAT is unable to compete 512 00:33:35,093 --> 00:33:37,893 Speaker 2: with bitcoin. He sees the world moving to a global 513 00:33:38,053 --> 00:33:42,733 Speaker 2: monetary standard based on bitcoin. And then the author of 514 00:33:42,773 --> 00:33:47,093 Speaker 2: this short article says, realize what Kruger is saying here, 515 00:33:47,293 --> 00:33:49,653 Speaker 2: and I'm going to take a gamble here and reach 516 00:33:49,773 --> 00:33:53,573 Speaker 2: the next five lines. The global M two money supplies 517 00:33:53,613 --> 00:33:58,373 Speaker 2: currently around one hundred and three trillion. The market capitalization 518 00:33:58,453 --> 00:34:02,493 Speaker 2: of bitcoin is one point three trillion. This means for 519 00:34:02,493 --> 00:34:05,253 Speaker 2: bitcoin to become the global monetary standard, it needs to 520 00:34:05,293 --> 00:34:08,933 Speaker 2: go up by one hundred times one hundred. Is this 521 00:34:09,053 --> 00:34:13,813 Speaker 2: possible Since the famous pizza incident, I don't know what 522 00:34:13,813 --> 00:34:18,413 Speaker 2: that is. In twenty ten, bitcoin has risen one million times. 523 00:34:19,093 --> 00:34:21,933 Speaker 2: Krueger knows of no other asset that has done this. 524 00:34:22,613 --> 00:34:25,013 Speaker 2: His message is simple. This is a make or break 525 00:34:25,013 --> 00:34:27,573 Speaker 2: moment for a lot of people. If you want to 526 00:34:27,613 --> 00:34:31,853 Speaker 2: accumulate wealth by bitcoin now you could argue that that's 527 00:34:31,853 --> 00:34:35,373 Speaker 2: a promotion if you like, or even propaganda. But I'm 528 00:34:35,413 --> 00:34:40,573 Speaker 2: seeing more and more confidence in bitcoin now. The connection 529 00:34:40,773 --> 00:34:46,213 Speaker 2: between the Reserve Bank of New Zealand's CBDC and bitcoin 530 00:34:46,413 --> 00:34:49,893 Speaker 2: or the differences, take that approach whichever way you prefer, 531 00:34:50,173 --> 00:34:50,653 Speaker 2: what is it? 532 00:34:51,933 --> 00:34:56,613 Speaker 3: Well, so at the moment, central bank digital currencies globally 533 00:34:56,813 --> 00:35:01,653 Speaker 3: aren't really looking at being on the blockchain, and Bitcoin's 534 00:35:01,733 --> 00:35:05,213 Speaker 3: on that blockchain, and of course, of course all the 535 00:35:05,253 --> 00:35:08,933 Speaker 3: greenies buying bitcoin. When you look at the energy required 536 00:35:08,933 --> 00:35:11,813 Speaker 3: to do all those mathematical formulations to keep working, is 537 00:35:12,453 --> 00:35:14,653 Speaker 3: a sort of an interesting thing to you know, a 538 00:35:14,733 --> 00:35:20,133 Speaker 3: little thing for the greens to go down and CBDCs. 539 00:35:20,133 --> 00:35:22,493 Speaker 3: So at the moment they're not on the blockchain, they're 540 00:35:22,533 --> 00:35:25,973 Speaker 3: just basically going to be sort of controlled and overseen 541 00:35:26,173 --> 00:35:32,453 Speaker 3: by reserve banks, central banks. But of course the etiology, 542 00:35:32,533 --> 00:35:36,933 Speaker 3: if you look at the design, how how CBDs c's 543 00:35:36,973 --> 00:35:39,933 Speaker 3: have come about. They've come about by a lot of 544 00:35:40,053 --> 00:35:44,533 Speaker 3: policy work by the financial, tech, finance and technology industries 545 00:35:44,533 --> 00:35:48,613 Speaker 3: who have also you know, being involved with the establishment 546 00:35:48,653 --> 00:35:53,373 Speaker 3: of bitcoin. But so whereas you know bitcoin has you know, 547 00:35:53,453 --> 00:35:57,533 Speaker 3: the doubling and the production or the reduction of coin 548 00:35:57,613 --> 00:36:02,813 Speaker 3: is is a mathematical formulation, CBDCs can be produced at 549 00:36:03,173 --> 00:36:06,653 Speaker 3: will and at whim by central banks. This is where 550 00:36:07,173 --> 00:36:11,853 Speaker 3: they're very dangerous because they can be and they will 551 00:36:12,173 --> 00:36:15,133 Speaker 3: likely be a political tool. And when I say a 552 00:36:15,173 --> 00:36:18,933 Speaker 3: political tool, this is because the Bank of International Settlements 553 00:36:19,533 --> 00:36:23,453 Speaker 3: and the large global banks are very much seeing them 554 00:36:24,213 --> 00:36:29,333 Speaker 3: as a as a way of achieving policy, you know, 555 00:36:29,373 --> 00:36:32,293 Speaker 3: the desire of what sort of policy might be achieved, 556 00:36:32,333 --> 00:36:36,133 Speaker 3: and so we can we can provide those financial incentives. 557 00:36:36,133 --> 00:36:40,493 Speaker 3: And it's carrot, it's carrot and stick stuff. We know that. 558 00:36:40,733 --> 00:36:43,933 Speaker 3: For example, so if a reserve bank was going and 559 00:36:44,253 --> 00:36:48,613 Speaker 3: I think it's a terrible idea, they can if they 560 00:36:48,613 --> 00:36:51,733 Speaker 3: were designing a CBDC, they can choose to have a 561 00:36:51,733 --> 00:36:55,013 Speaker 3: negative interest rate, they can choose to have a you know, 562 00:36:56,013 --> 00:36:59,573 Speaker 3: positive interest rate. They can choose, you know, all the 563 00:36:59,613 --> 00:37:03,653 Speaker 3: program the payments will be programmable. So the Reserve Bank 564 00:37:03,653 --> 00:37:06,373 Speaker 3: of New Zealand and its current consultation says, oh, we 565 00:37:06,413 --> 00:37:09,773 Speaker 3: won't make the money program But the problem is the 566 00:37:09,813 --> 00:37:13,773 Speaker 3: payments will be programmable, they will be revocable because they 567 00:37:13,813 --> 00:37:16,093 Speaker 3: have to be revocable in case the mistake is made. 568 00:37:16,813 --> 00:37:21,293 Speaker 3: So we know that all this program these programmability functions, 569 00:37:21,293 --> 00:37:25,013 Speaker 3: which is not there with bitcoin. So a third party 570 00:37:25,093 --> 00:37:28,013 Speaker 3: locks can be put in place where so, for example, 571 00:37:28,053 --> 00:37:31,653 Speaker 3: the Health Ministry might decide that, you know, this group 572 00:37:31,733 --> 00:37:35,973 Speaker 3: of welfare benefit beneficiaries can get this much money if 573 00:37:36,053 --> 00:37:40,133 Speaker 3: they get their kids injected with the latest vaccine and 574 00:37:40,613 --> 00:37:44,813 Speaker 3: get their teeth scene too, and then they tend them 575 00:37:44,813 --> 00:37:47,053 Speaker 3: to school, they'll get this extra money, you know. So 576 00:37:48,253 --> 00:37:51,733 Speaker 3: the Ministry for Health can instruct that through to the 577 00:37:51,773 --> 00:37:54,293 Speaker 3: Central Bank of New Zealand, who could then send that 578 00:37:54,413 --> 00:38:01,013 Speaker 3: advice out to whatever fintech industry is contracted to then 579 00:38:02,213 --> 00:38:05,773 Speaker 3: design the smart contract. Sorry that is a smart contract 580 00:38:05,813 --> 00:38:09,573 Speaker 3: that would be third party processes. It would be involved 581 00:38:09,773 --> 00:38:13,613 Speaker 3: with the financial and tech industries will be contracting and 582 00:38:13,693 --> 00:38:18,293 Speaker 3: designing the software perhaps, so this is how disaggregated it 583 00:38:18,333 --> 00:38:21,093 Speaker 3: will be. And this is this is part of the problem. 584 00:38:21,373 --> 00:38:23,733 Speaker 3: So like the blockchain is, you know, you can see 585 00:38:24,053 --> 00:38:27,493 Speaker 3: your ID code wherever you want. It's quite transparent, whereas 586 00:38:27,573 --> 00:38:32,533 Speaker 3: this stuff is all black boxed like in an aircraft. 587 00:38:33,053 --> 00:38:36,533 Speaker 3: You can't see what's happening when you can't know. And 588 00:38:36,693 --> 00:38:41,773 Speaker 3: there's a term they use called composability. So smart contracts 589 00:38:41,813 --> 00:38:48,253 Speaker 3: which are let's let's they are self little self executing programmed, 590 00:38:50,173 --> 00:38:56,373 Speaker 3: self executing applications of programmable platforms that can trigger an 591 00:38:56,453 --> 00:39:03,053 Speaker 3: action if some pre specified condition is met. And that's 592 00:39:03,333 --> 00:39:06,733 Speaker 3: that's a Bank of International Settlements. That's the way they 593 00:39:07,253 --> 00:39:11,693 Speaker 3: see smart contracts. So they can be composable. Smart contracts 594 00:39:11,693 --> 00:39:14,733 Speaker 3: can be bundleable. So that's so you're you know, you 595 00:39:14,733 --> 00:39:19,133 Speaker 3: were talking about not being able to you know, your 596 00:39:19,213 --> 00:39:21,853 Speaker 3: your bank account could be frozen if you go outside 597 00:39:21,893 --> 00:39:24,373 Speaker 3: the region of the Bay of Plenty, so it could 598 00:39:24,453 --> 00:39:26,693 Speaker 3: you know, the smart contract could be applicable to all 599 00:39:26,733 --> 00:39:28,973 Speaker 3: people in the Bay of Plenty, so they don't have 600 00:39:29,053 --> 00:39:31,373 Speaker 3: any you know, they can't fill up with petrol outside 601 00:39:31,373 --> 00:39:34,093 Speaker 3: that region, and of course. 602 00:39:34,453 --> 00:39:37,693 Speaker 2: Contract which, of course which which of course would make 603 00:39:37,933 --> 00:39:42,013 Speaker 2: lockdowns far more readily available to the powers that be. 604 00:39:43,213 --> 00:39:46,413 Speaker 3: And this is a scalability potential. Yes. 605 00:39:48,173 --> 00:39:53,653 Speaker 2: The biggest problem I believe is how to advise people 606 00:39:53,733 --> 00:39:57,733 Speaker 2: who don't usually care, who haven't got time for it, 607 00:39:57,933 --> 00:40:00,533 Speaker 2: who don't care, who think you're, like you said, a 608 00:40:00,573 --> 00:40:04,733 Speaker 2: tenfoil hatter or whatever, and they're just not interested in 609 00:40:04,853 --> 00:40:07,853 Speaker 2: knowing what's going on. How do you how do you 610 00:40:07,933 --> 00:40:09,813 Speaker 2: best apro Well? 611 00:40:09,853 --> 00:40:13,293 Speaker 3: I think for me, I am informed, and I want 612 00:40:13,453 --> 00:40:16,813 Speaker 3: I work in this area, which is politically often politically 613 00:40:16,893 --> 00:40:24,653 Speaker 3: uncomfortable because I have children, and my children are young 614 00:40:24,693 --> 00:40:28,933 Speaker 3: adults and they are growing up and I I'm not, 615 00:40:29,013 --> 00:40:30,653 Speaker 3: you know, And part of it we're not We don't 616 00:40:30,653 --> 00:40:32,933 Speaker 3: look at we don't look at history, so we don't understand. 617 00:40:32,933 --> 00:40:36,093 Speaker 3: So we might learn about World War Two, we might 618 00:40:36,213 --> 00:40:40,933 Speaker 3: learn about and Frank, we might learn about the concentration camps, 619 00:40:40,933 --> 00:40:43,373 Speaker 3: but when we're at high school, we don't actually learn 620 00:40:43,453 --> 00:40:46,973 Speaker 3: about the extent which there was a massive propaganda campaign 621 00:40:47,853 --> 00:40:51,533 Speaker 3: be fleeting up to that with Russia, with the Chinese Revolution, 622 00:40:52,053 --> 00:40:57,213 Speaker 3: how now gained young students? You know, the history of 623 00:40:57,253 --> 00:41:02,213 Speaker 3: propaganda and gaining the youth to to to jump on 624 00:41:02,293 --> 00:41:06,973 Speaker 3: board without the nuances the experiences of older generations, and 625 00:41:07,053 --> 00:41:10,933 Speaker 3: so younger people can achieve really powerful, important things. But 626 00:41:11,813 --> 00:41:15,013 Speaker 3: we need to I think as older people you know 627 00:41:15,133 --> 00:41:17,853 Speaker 3: listening to this podcast, and I know you know, young 628 00:41:17,933 --> 00:41:20,453 Speaker 3: tradees will be listening to this as well, with you know, 629 00:41:20,533 --> 00:41:24,933 Speaker 3: common sense people will be listening to them. It's exactly 630 00:41:25,013 --> 00:41:28,213 Speaker 3: it's learning to speak up when it's a little bit uncomfortable, 631 00:41:28,573 --> 00:41:31,653 Speaker 3: because if you don't speak up now, there's a very 632 00:41:31,653 --> 00:41:34,133 Speaker 3: big chance in hell that that is not going to 633 00:41:34,133 --> 00:41:38,333 Speaker 3: get any easier. And so I have two there's two 634 00:41:38,413 --> 00:41:41,733 Speaker 3: reasons why I believe democracy is the most at risk. 635 00:41:42,373 --> 00:41:45,933 Speaker 3: And one is because we keep sort of delegating authority, 636 00:41:46,333 --> 00:41:50,413 Speaker 3: whether it's through trade agreements or through other agreements such 637 00:41:50,413 --> 00:41:54,173 Speaker 3: as you know agreement you know, tacit agreements with UN 638 00:41:54,253 --> 00:41:58,653 Speaker 3: agencies such as WHO. So when we delegate authorities to them, 639 00:41:58,733 --> 00:42:01,813 Speaker 3: we lose a little bit of our you know, sovereignty, 640 00:42:01,853 --> 00:42:06,533 Speaker 3: our democratic strength. And the other way we're losing is 641 00:42:06,893 --> 00:42:09,453 Speaker 3: through the fact that the as I said, the information 642 00:42:09,573 --> 00:42:12,853 Speaker 3: is controlled by those big agencies, and when those big 643 00:42:12,893 --> 00:42:15,493 Speaker 3: agencies need an extra portion and they need an extra 644 00:42:16,493 --> 00:42:18,573 Speaker 3: they want to follow a little bit more of this 645 00:42:18,773 --> 00:42:22,013 Speaker 3: you know, digitizing government stuff they get in the big 646 00:42:22,173 --> 00:42:27,013 Speaker 3: management consultancies. And so people need to understand how bad 647 00:42:27,133 --> 00:42:30,333 Speaker 3: this situation is. So the Reserve Bank of New Zealand 648 00:42:30,333 --> 00:42:34,253 Speaker 3: are the only people right now producing the evidence for 649 00:42:34,373 --> 00:42:38,133 Speaker 3: how marvelous and wonderful CBDCs are. So there's no you know, 650 00:42:38,173 --> 00:42:40,213 Speaker 3: like I said, there's no expert lawyers out there, no 651 00:42:40,333 --> 00:42:44,373 Speaker 3: expert governance people out there, no one there's kids, you 652 00:42:44,493 --> 00:42:47,373 Speaker 3: not PSDR and SRE. This is why we've come into 653 00:42:47,413 --> 00:42:49,893 Speaker 3: this space because no one else is here. It's not 654 00:42:49,973 --> 00:42:54,173 Speaker 3: our dream. And so we need to understand that if 655 00:42:54,453 --> 00:42:57,813 Speaker 3: the governments are only looking at the agencies doing this, 656 00:42:58,373 --> 00:43:01,453 Speaker 3: and I'm probably going on about this too much, we 657 00:43:02,173 --> 00:43:05,693 Speaker 3: are fully ignorant and we are victims to that policy. 658 00:43:05,853 --> 00:43:08,733 Speaker 3: So the question at the dinner table is should the 659 00:43:08,853 --> 00:43:12,893 Speaker 3: RBNZ be the only agency providing all the evidence for 660 00:43:13,933 --> 00:43:18,773 Speaker 3: the safety and efficacy of central bank digital currencies? And 661 00:43:18,813 --> 00:43:21,533 Speaker 3: this is when we stop being tinfoil hat wearers, because 662 00:43:21,533 --> 00:43:23,453 Speaker 3: we're actually saying this is a reasonable question. 663 00:43:24,653 --> 00:43:28,853 Speaker 2: Let me quote the beginning of your monster paper in 664 00:43:28,893 --> 00:43:33,013 Speaker 2: the executive summary by releasing this discussion paper Physicians and 665 00:43:33,093 --> 00:43:37,453 Speaker 2: Scientists for Global Responsibility New Zealand, that is psg r 666 00:43:37,693 --> 00:43:44,173 Speaker 2: n Z aim to encourage debate around governance, democracy and 667 00:43:44,253 --> 00:43:50,173 Speaker 2: the interoperability of digital identity systems and central bank digital currencies. 668 00:43:50,813 --> 00:43:53,853 Speaker 2: What are the risks from adopting CBDCs which are tied 669 00:43:53,893 --> 00:43:58,573 Speaker 2: to your digital ID, your digital twin? What is the 670 00:43:58,613 --> 00:44:02,293 Speaker 2: answers to that? So, Jody, what are the risks from 671 00:44:02,373 --> 00:44:06,933 Speaker 2: adopting cbdc's which are tied to your digital ID, your 672 00:44:06,973 --> 00:44:07,853 Speaker 2: digital twin as. 673 00:44:07,773 --> 00:44:10,453 Speaker 3: You put it, so thank you for that. Yeah, that 674 00:44:10,653 --> 00:44:14,933 Speaker 3: we haven't talked about digital IDs yet, so so digital 675 00:44:14,933 --> 00:44:21,893 Speaker 3: ideas are increasingly so the whole of New Zealand government 676 00:44:22,013 --> 00:44:24,773 Speaker 3: hasn't has put in put out the requirement that all 677 00:44:24,853 --> 00:44:29,773 Speaker 3: agencies offer they accept real me, they accept a digital 678 00:44:29,813 --> 00:44:33,653 Speaker 3: identity for as equally to a passport. But what we're 679 00:44:33,693 --> 00:44:37,413 Speaker 3: seeing now is we're seeing it increasingly increasingly they might 680 00:44:37,493 --> 00:44:41,573 Speaker 3: only only accept your real me identity and so when 681 00:44:41,613 --> 00:44:45,813 Speaker 3: you get your digital ID, you they take them er scams, 682 00:44:45,853 --> 00:44:52,133 Speaker 3: so they have your biometric data. And the issue here 683 00:44:52,213 --> 00:44:56,493 Speaker 3: is so the Department of Internal Affairs controls all this 684 00:44:56,613 --> 00:45:00,573 Speaker 3: information and so the Department of Internal Affairs is sort 685 00:45:00,613 --> 00:45:05,493 Speaker 3: of has information sharing agreements across the whole of government, 686 00:45:06,133 --> 00:45:08,253 Speaker 3: so they can share your data and we don't know 687 00:45:08,413 --> 00:45:11,853 Speaker 3: how much this is shared or shareable because of course 688 00:45:11,893 --> 00:45:17,173 Speaker 3: it's black boxed. So the DEA administers the Digital Identity 689 00:45:17,253 --> 00:45:22,973 Speaker 3: Services Trust Framework Act and the Electronic Identity Verification Actors. 690 00:45:23,053 --> 00:45:25,573 Speaker 3: So that's the back end management of our personal data. 691 00:45:26,253 --> 00:45:31,173 Speaker 3: So then you add that, you toddle that to for example, 692 00:45:31,213 --> 00:45:38,453 Speaker 3: if CBDCs where your main money account of retail CBDCs, 693 00:45:39,213 --> 00:45:45,293 Speaker 3: then we have the capacity for a surprising amount of 694 00:45:45,453 --> 00:45:51,253 Speaker 3: control acrosshole of government. And so you know, psgr And said, 695 00:45:51,493 --> 00:45:54,253 Speaker 3: we've always looked at the fact that often you know, 696 00:45:54,293 --> 00:45:58,733 Speaker 3: it's a round up the Glacious eight trials. It was 697 00:45:59,013 --> 00:46:01,373 Speaker 3: what came out in that was that the formulation was 698 00:46:01,413 --> 00:46:04,373 Speaker 3: so much more toxic than the active ingredient. So when 699 00:46:04,773 --> 00:46:09,573 Speaker 3: the Reserve Bank only talks about CBDCs, the formulation is 700 00:46:09,613 --> 00:46:12,973 Speaker 3: more toxic than the active ingredient. When they're combined with 701 00:46:13,053 --> 00:46:18,253 Speaker 3: digital ideas, that's when i've got the capacity to survalue 702 00:46:18,373 --> 00:46:21,493 Speaker 3: when you're walking down the street and know where you are, 703 00:46:22,053 --> 00:46:27,093 Speaker 3: then they've got the capacity to understand your transactions because 704 00:46:27,093 --> 00:46:30,733 Speaker 3: you're using your CBDC and you're transacting, transacting on your 705 00:46:30,733 --> 00:46:34,093 Speaker 3: real may identity, so that, like we keep talking, the 706 00:46:34,133 --> 00:46:39,333 Speaker 3: scalability of this is significant. And so it's when all 707 00:46:39,373 --> 00:46:45,453 Speaker 3: this is linked together that harm happens. That's the problem. 708 00:46:46,093 --> 00:46:47,853 Speaker 3: And so this is normally if you have your and 709 00:46:47,853 --> 00:46:49,533 Speaker 3: this is the other problem. And we have the same 710 00:46:49,573 --> 00:46:55,013 Speaker 3: problem when we have retail banks operating in an oligopoly. 711 00:46:55,533 --> 00:46:58,453 Speaker 3: So this is why sort of Richard Werner, who's an 712 00:46:58,453 --> 00:47:01,733 Speaker 3: international economist, he says, we need to do a heck 713 00:47:01,813 --> 00:47:03,533 Speaker 3: of a lot of work, and this is government policy. 714 00:47:03,573 --> 00:47:08,493 Speaker 3: Governments can turn around do this tomorrow to let small 715 00:47:08,533 --> 00:47:14,333 Speaker 3: local banks establish themselves and serve small local communities. The 716 00:47:14,373 --> 00:47:17,573 Speaker 3: minute you get oligopolies, you get the government and the 717 00:47:17,853 --> 00:47:23,893 Speaker 3: oligopolies naturally working together to shape regulation to make sure 718 00:47:23,933 --> 00:47:27,773 Speaker 3: it's virtually agreeable. And often this is a way of 719 00:47:28,093 --> 00:47:33,253 Speaker 3: not just it's a strategic way of the large corporations 720 00:47:33,293 --> 00:47:35,773 Speaker 3: reinforcing their position because it makes it harder for the 721 00:47:35,853 --> 00:47:39,413 Speaker 3: little guys to get going. So you know, this is 722 00:47:39,413 --> 00:47:42,333 Speaker 3: a this is a very good industry tactic. It's done 723 00:47:42,333 --> 00:47:46,333 Speaker 3: across big food, it's done across pesticize regulation, it's you know, 724 00:47:46,413 --> 00:47:51,333 Speaker 3: it's it's it's a common thing to do. So you know, 725 00:47:51,413 --> 00:47:54,293 Speaker 3: when these things are linked, you know when digital ideas 726 00:47:54,373 --> 00:47:57,453 Speaker 3: linked to cbdc's harm happens. 727 00:47:58,373 --> 00:48:00,573 Speaker 2: So where are we out at the moment then with 728 00:48:00,853 --> 00:48:06,933 Speaker 2: the existence of both and their connectivity in the in 729 00:48:06,973 --> 00:48:07,973 Speaker 2: the future. 730 00:48:09,053 --> 00:48:12,893 Speaker 3: So right now, government, if you want a government job, 731 00:48:13,773 --> 00:48:16,333 Speaker 3: I don't know if you're able to get a government 732 00:48:16,413 --> 00:48:19,413 Speaker 3: job unless you have a real May identity. Right now, 733 00:48:19,573 --> 00:48:21,973 Speaker 3: if I wanted to get funding through the poking through 734 00:48:22,013 --> 00:48:24,333 Speaker 3: the Losttery grant scheme, I would have to get a 735 00:48:24,373 --> 00:48:29,493 Speaker 3: digital identity. If I was PSDR and Z was looking 736 00:48:29,533 --> 00:48:32,613 Speaker 3: for funding through that, I personally would have to get 737 00:48:32,653 --> 00:48:36,613 Speaker 3: a digital identity. So they're bringing it in through funding mechanisms. 738 00:48:37,093 --> 00:48:43,893 Speaker 3: I'm aware that if teachers need if they have something 739 00:48:43,933 --> 00:48:46,093 Speaker 3: that's been contested and they need to get it resolved 740 00:48:46,173 --> 00:48:49,573 Speaker 3: or envy, they need to have I believe, a digital identity. 741 00:48:49,813 --> 00:48:52,893 Speaker 3: So the digital identity creep is happening. So all the 742 00:48:52,933 --> 00:48:56,973 Speaker 3: students now they're devaulting to digital identities to the real 743 00:48:56,973 --> 00:49:01,573 Speaker 3: May identities to apply for tertiary education because it's just 744 00:49:01,693 --> 00:49:06,013 Speaker 3: easier and quicker. So they've got a definite creep of 745 00:49:06,133 --> 00:49:12,133 Speaker 3: people onto digital identities. So if we look at China, China, 746 00:49:12,333 --> 00:49:18,973 Speaker 3: in China, they're paying wages of people through CBDCs, and 747 00:49:19,173 --> 00:49:21,293 Speaker 3: we know that the Chinese are quickly getting rid of 748 00:49:21,293 --> 00:49:25,333 Speaker 3: their CBDC money. They don't trust it, they quickly truncefer that. 749 00:49:26,653 --> 00:49:28,653 Speaker 3: But we know that this is you know, say, the 750 00:49:28,693 --> 00:49:31,333 Speaker 3: public sector will use the power of the public sector 751 00:49:31,613 --> 00:49:37,653 Speaker 3: to force people onto this. So when and I guess 752 00:49:37,693 --> 00:49:40,413 Speaker 3: I became a lursi and started getting really into this 753 00:49:40,493 --> 00:49:44,773 Speaker 3: when I saw that ad for the trial project the 754 00:49:44,773 --> 00:49:49,013 Speaker 3: cbdc's and when I saw that ad, I directly put 755 00:49:49,093 --> 00:49:54,093 Speaker 3: in an official Information at request. I wanted to understand 756 00:49:54,453 --> 00:49:58,933 Speaker 3: where the cabinet, the Prime Minister, where the ministers had 757 00:49:59,493 --> 00:50:04,013 Speaker 3: to what extent have they been briefed on CBDCs, to 758 00:50:04,093 --> 00:50:07,133 Speaker 3: what extent did they understand the risks? Now that was 759 00:50:07,173 --> 00:50:11,333 Speaker 3: a December in December official Information at Requests. I heard 760 00:50:12,013 --> 00:50:15,853 Speaker 3: back from that two weeks ago. That's how long it 761 00:50:15,853 --> 00:50:16,613 Speaker 3: took me to get that. 762 00:50:17,293 --> 00:50:19,173 Speaker 2: And in terms of weeks, how long is it. 763 00:50:21,893 --> 00:50:26,533 Speaker 3: So December to May? So it took five and a 764 00:50:26,573 --> 00:50:30,853 Speaker 3: half months to get a response for this official Information 765 00:50:30,893 --> 00:50:32,733 Speaker 3: at Requests because they transferred it back to the arm 766 00:50:32,813 --> 00:50:36,293 Speaker 3: in z because the cabinet cabinet ministers didn't want to 767 00:50:36,413 --> 00:50:40,453 Speaker 3: answer it, and because they haven't been briefed. They really 768 00:50:41,093 --> 00:50:44,053 Speaker 3: have not been briefed in general, so our MPs are 769 00:50:45,053 --> 00:50:47,893 Speaker 3: lastly ignorant about the potential. So it comes back to 770 00:50:47,973 --> 00:50:51,293 Speaker 3: the academics. The experts aren't speaking up, media is not 771 00:50:51,333 --> 00:50:54,493 Speaker 3: speaking up. You know, Members of payment have no idea 772 00:50:54,973 --> 00:50:58,573 Speaker 3: and this is the biggest transformation in in you know, 773 00:50:58,813 --> 00:51:00,253 Speaker 3: money potentially. 774 00:51:01,853 --> 00:51:05,453 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well tell me this, Grant Robertson, because you've 775 00:51:05,493 --> 00:51:09,333 Speaker 2: you've you've attached yourself to this, or you've asked this 776 00:51:09,413 --> 00:51:12,533 Speaker 2: question in one of them, in one of the pieces 777 00:51:12,853 --> 00:51:17,973 Speaker 2: Grant Robertson, how much did he know about the advancement 778 00:51:18,013 --> 00:51:18,213 Speaker 2: of this? 779 00:51:19,933 --> 00:51:22,853 Speaker 3: Well, I don't think. I don't think they've been briefed. 780 00:51:22,973 --> 00:51:26,613 Speaker 3: You know that I haven't. I tried to get I 781 00:51:26,733 --> 00:51:29,933 Speaker 3: asked directly, how much is the Minister for Finance, the 782 00:51:29,933 --> 00:51:33,053 Speaker 3: minister responsible for you know, basically the treasury in the 783 00:51:33,133 --> 00:51:35,773 Speaker 3: RB and there and I don't you know, there's been 784 00:51:36,213 --> 00:51:41,613 Speaker 3: nothing zip. It's just impossible to understand this. And of 785 00:51:41,653 --> 00:51:44,653 Speaker 3: course the minute, this is a big loophole. The minute 786 00:51:44,653 --> 00:51:49,653 Speaker 3: a minister gets moves out into a different portfolio. They 787 00:51:49,653 --> 00:51:53,013 Speaker 3: don't have to answer question official information, actual quests from 788 00:51:53,013 --> 00:51:56,493 Speaker 3: their previous portfolio. But I don't you know there has 789 00:51:57,613 --> 00:52:00,453 Speaker 3: has Nikola been briefed to what extent does she know? 790 00:52:00,613 --> 00:52:03,013 Speaker 3: But and the truth is she will only know as 791 00:52:03,053 --> 00:52:06,053 Speaker 3: much as she knows from the RB and ZAT and accenture. 792 00:52:06,493 --> 00:52:10,013 Speaker 3: So you know, this is we can talk about eccentia 793 00:52:10,053 --> 00:52:12,693 Speaker 3: in a bit. This is this is a major problem. 794 00:52:12,773 --> 00:52:16,133 Speaker 2: We all right, so quickly some quick Q and as 795 00:52:16,493 --> 00:52:19,133 Speaker 2: if we can, if I can think of the questions 796 00:52:19,453 --> 00:52:25,453 Speaker 2: fast enough. There is an old argument. It's the greatest 797 00:52:25,453 --> 00:52:28,093 Speaker 2: loser argument I've ever known. I think, if you've got 798 00:52:28,093 --> 00:52:30,013 Speaker 2: nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear it, what 799 00:52:30,053 --> 00:52:31,453 Speaker 2: do you say? 800 00:52:32,573 --> 00:52:35,413 Speaker 3: So that leaves us really really, really really really big 801 00:52:35,453 --> 00:52:37,933 Speaker 3: space for the demagogues and the tyrants to step in 802 00:52:38,053 --> 00:52:40,293 Speaker 3: and to create unfair laws. And then you wake up 803 00:52:40,333 --> 00:52:43,573 Speaker 3: one day and you say, but that law's unfair. But 804 00:52:45,053 --> 00:52:50,053 Speaker 3: you can't fight back. You can't fight back because the 805 00:52:50,213 --> 00:52:53,693 Speaker 3: laws have been put in place that stop you. So 806 00:52:54,453 --> 00:52:57,773 Speaker 3: you presume everything's going to be fair and lovely. But 807 00:52:57,893 --> 00:53:00,413 Speaker 3: what happens if it's not? And when it's not so 808 00:53:01,653 --> 00:53:04,773 Speaker 3: and the problem is, I think again, this is this 809 00:53:04,813 --> 00:53:07,693 Speaker 3: is when you're at the barbecue. How many laws have 810 00:53:07,773 --> 00:53:14,333 Speaker 3: been pushed through using emergency rational emergency excuses, And then 811 00:53:14,653 --> 00:53:18,093 Speaker 3: COVID that all the all the the mandates came through 812 00:53:18,213 --> 00:53:22,173 Speaker 3: using what's called delegated or secondary legislation. It came through 813 00:53:22,213 --> 00:53:26,813 Speaker 3: with perhaps only two ministers, maybe three ministers making those 814 00:53:26,853 --> 00:53:31,293 Speaker 3: decisions for the mandates to go through without any reviews 815 00:53:31,373 --> 00:53:34,413 Speaker 3: of the scientific literature. That's remember, that's a game being played, 816 00:53:34,493 --> 00:53:36,933 Speaker 3: is they don't actually look at the published scientific literature 817 00:53:37,573 --> 00:53:40,093 Speaker 3: and they say that this is the evidence. But the 818 00:53:40,093 --> 00:53:43,853 Speaker 3: evidence only involves the evidence that the industry involves. You know, 819 00:53:44,093 --> 00:53:47,893 Speaker 3: during COVID that was that was Spiza gives them. So 820 00:53:48,613 --> 00:53:51,973 Speaker 3: we need to understand that when agencies are making decisions 821 00:53:52,013 --> 00:53:58,053 Speaker 3: that do not involve using independent, impartial researchers and actors, 822 00:53:59,453 --> 00:54:03,373 Speaker 3: then we cannot trust the decisions being made of those agencies. 823 00:54:03,413 --> 00:54:06,533 Speaker 3: So that I have nothing to hide means that you're 824 00:54:06,613 --> 00:54:10,533 Speaker 3: sitting dark when things are that when things go wrong 825 00:54:10,613 --> 00:54:11,693 Speaker 3: or they become unfair. 826 00:54:11,893 --> 00:54:14,133 Speaker 2: Well, I've had an argument for as long as I 827 00:54:14,173 --> 00:54:16,773 Speaker 2: can remember now, and I don't know where it came from. 828 00:54:16,813 --> 00:54:18,413 Speaker 2: I'd like to think. I thought of it myself. But 829 00:54:18,773 --> 00:54:23,973 Speaker 2: you you've got nothing to hide. You think you think 830 00:54:24,013 --> 00:54:26,373 Speaker 2: you've got nothing to hide. You're not the one that 831 00:54:26,453 --> 00:54:31,453 Speaker 2: makes the decisions on what should be hidden or not hidden, 832 00:54:31,653 --> 00:54:34,213 Speaker 2: and what what's right or wrong at any given stage. 833 00:54:34,973 --> 00:54:38,013 Speaker 2: You're not the authority in charge of the rules. That's 834 00:54:38,053 --> 00:54:43,333 Speaker 2: the point exactly. I just don't get. I don't understand 835 00:54:43,373 --> 00:54:46,413 Speaker 2: how otherwise intelligent people, and I can think of two 836 00:54:46,813 --> 00:54:52,253 Speaker 2: prominent people still still argue that now you included, you included. 837 00:54:52,293 --> 00:54:53,253 Speaker 2: Did you want to say more? 838 00:54:54,093 --> 00:54:57,853 Speaker 3: Well, I would those two intelligent and prominent people, I 839 00:54:58,693 --> 00:55:02,493 Speaker 3: would quickly like to draw their attention to So the 840 00:55:02,533 --> 00:55:04,813 Speaker 3: attorney general. Can we take a quick talk about the 841 00:55:04,813 --> 00:55:11,493 Speaker 3: attorney general? Right? So attorney general has constitutional responsibilities. Judith 842 00:55:11,493 --> 00:55:15,213 Speaker 3: Collins is required to ensure that the operations of executive 843 00:55:15,213 --> 00:55:19,893 Speaker 3: government are conducted lawfully and constitutionally, and that the government 844 00:55:19,973 --> 00:55:23,893 Speaker 3: is not prevented, through the through use of legal process, 845 00:55:23,933 --> 00:55:28,173 Speaker 3: from lawfully implementing its chosen policy. Now, remember, lawful lawfully 846 00:55:28,173 --> 00:55:30,773 Speaker 3: implementing means it can just go bang bang bang through 847 00:55:30,933 --> 00:55:34,493 Speaker 3: emergency powers or secondary legislation. But we have a big 848 00:55:34,533 --> 00:55:38,933 Speaker 3: problem because Judith Collins is the Attorney General. I have 849 00:55:39,173 --> 00:55:44,053 Speaker 3: never seen an Attorney General with the extent of ministerial 850 00:55:44,173 --> 00:55:49,373 Speaker 3: portfolios that Collins had. She's the Minister for start you know, 851 00:55:49,493 --> 00:55:51,853 Speaker 3: just breathing deeply everyone, because this is a long list, 852 00:55:52,653 --> 00:55:57,453 Speaker 3: Minister for digitizing content. She's the Minister for Defense. She's 853 00:55:57,453 --> 00:56:01,133 Speaker 3: the Minister for the GC s B. She's the Minister 854 00:56:01,213 --> 00:56:04,773 Speaker 3: for the nz SIS. She's the minister who is leading 855 00:56:04,813 --> 00:56:08,053 Speaker 3: the coordination of the government's response to the Royal Commission's 856 00:56:08,053 --> 00:56:11,733 Speaker 3: report into the terrorist attack on the christ Church Mosques. 857 00:56:12,173 --> 00:56:16,173 Speaker 3: She's the Minister for Space, and she's the Minister for Science, 858 00:56:16,373 --> 00:56:20,893 Speaker 3: Innovation and Technology. And if you remember, Science and Innovation 859 00:56:21,013 --> 00:56:25,213 Speaker 3: and Technology is caught under MB and will not do 860 00:56:25,333 --> 00:56:29,293 Speaker 3: any research that is contrary to that of the Government 861 00:56:29,493 --> 00:56:34,093 Speaker 3: of the day. Should the Attorney General, who is that 862 00:56:34,733 --> 00:56:39,013 Speaker 3: the Minister for responsible for good law also have those 863 00:56:39,053 --> 00:56:40,493 Speaker 3: ministerial portfolios? 864 00:56:42,253 --> 00:56:43,413 Speaker 2: The answer is it's crazy. 865 00:56:45,133 --> 00:56:49,133 Speaker 3: It's just I think the word is diabolical later and 866 00:56:49,533 --> 00:56:51,413 Speaker 3: I like crazy. 867 00:56:52,533 --> 00:56:58,013 Speaker 2: Or diabolically crazy. But anyway, there's two more things. At 868 00:56:58,093 --> 00:57:02,493 Speaker 2: least I want to slip in digitally. These heavy criticism 869 00:57:02,533 --> 00:57:06,933 Speaker 2: by New York University Law School paper. This is something 870 00:57:06,973 --> 00:57:11,653 Speaker 2: I only read the very short time ago, and I've 871 00:57:11,653 --> 00:57:14,573 Speaker 2: got to go back and deal with it further, because 872 00:57:14,733 --> 00:57:19,573 Speaker 2: coming from a university in New York, little in America 873 00:57:19,653 --> 00:57:24,573 Speaker 2: at the moment, something like this seems out of context. 874 00:57:25,493 --> 00:57:28,213 Speaker 2: At twenty twenty two, paper paving a Digital Road to 875 00:57:28,293 --> 00:57:32,413 Speaker 2: Hell question Mark by the Center for Human Rights in 876 00:57:32,453 --> 00:57:36,053 Speaker 2: Global Justice New York University School of Law heavily criticized 877 00:57:36,093 --> 00:57:39,893 Speaker 2: the models of digital ideas that have been propagated by 878 00:57:39,933 --> 00:57:44,013 Speaker 2: these large organizations. The policy development that followed the World 879 00:57:44,093 --> 00:57:48,173 Speaker 2: bank initial efforts have reflected the concern in this New 880 00:57:48,293 --> 00:57:53,693 Speaker 2: York University School of Law paper. Key issues include privileges 881 00:57:53,813 --> 00:57:59,173 Speaker 2: economic identity is disconnected from legal status and steers attention 882 00:57:59,333 --> 00:58:03,653 Speaker 2: away from civil registration, threatens a range of fundamental rights, 883 00:58:03,893 --> 00:58:06,773 Speaker 2: from the right to social security to the rights to privacy. 884 00:58:07,413 --> 00:58:10,733 Speaker 2: And that's the big one for me. The surported benefits 885 00:58:10,813 --> 00:58:15,973 Speaker 2: remain mostly unsubstantiated in the absence of serious baseline studies, 886 00:58:16,133 --> 00:58:20,613 Speaker 2: cost benefit and value for money analysis and impact assessments. 887 00:58:20,933 --> 00:58:22,933 Speaker 2: I'll stop there because I don't want to take up 888 00:58:22,973 --> 00:58:26,173 Speaker 2: too much time. But the authors the authors just went 889 00:58:26,213 --> 00:58:29,013 Speaker 2: on to note all too often digital ID systems are 890 00:58:29,053 --> 00:58:32,973 Speaker 2: mired in a lack of transparency. Even the legislation underlying 891 00:58:32,973 --> 00:58:37,333 Speaker 2: digital ID where it exists often does not provide adequate 892 00:58:37,373 --> 00:58:40,213 Speaker 2: information about what the system will entail you go. 893 00:58:41,493 --> 00:58:46,413 Speaker 3: So this is really interesting. They looked at the World Bank, 894 00:58:46,573 --> 00:58:50,053 Speaker 3: the role of the World Bank's bank, that World Bank 895 00:58:50,173 --> 00:58:54,453 Speaker 3: singular in setting the white papers, the policy, the framing, 896 00:58:54,573 --> 00:58:59,213 Speaker 3: the language for digital identities. In our PSCR and Z paper, 897 00:58:59,333 --> 00:59:01,653 Speaker 3: we've gone and said, look at look at the Bank 898 00:59:01,693 --> 00:59:06,293 Speaker 3: of International International Settlements the BIS. Look at how they've 899 00:59:06,413 --> 00:59:11,413 Speaker 3: set the policy, the language, the framing, the principles, the risks, 900 00:59:11,853 --> 00:59:15,533 Speaker 3: and so what we have is these big, global, powerful 901 00:59:15,573 --> 00:59:21,293 Speaker 3: banks that have legal indemnity that are outside the purview 902 00:59:21,373 --> 00:59:26,053 Speaker 3: of any democratic nation, setting the language, the risk framing, 903 00:59:26,773 --> 00:59:30,253 Speaker 3: all that sort of stuff. And so that's why those 904 00:59:30,293 --> 00:59:32,773 Speaker 3: those academics looked at that background, and then they came 905 00:59:32,853 --> 00:59:35,813 Speaker 3: down and they looked at how the risks and so 906 00:59:35,853 --> 00:59:38,973 Speaker 3: there's a there's an image that we've reproduced in the 907 00:59:39,093 --> 00:59:43,613 Speaker 3: latter later sort of twentieth fifth of our paper, and 908 00:59:44,053 --> 00:59:47,813 Speaker 3: it's there. They're they're showing how digital identity stretches into 909 00:59:47,973 --> 00:59:52,253 Speaker 3: every single part of society. So when you overlay digital 910 00:59:52,293 --> 00:59:55,613 Speaker 3: identity stretching into every single part of society, how we 911 00:59:55,693 --> 01:00:00,373 Speaker 3: pay your access, Every single stratu of society is overlaid 912 01:00:00,413 --> 01:00:05,293 Speaker 3: with that. So that's a really important paper to consider. 913 01:00:05,333 --> 01:00:08,333 Speaker 3: And we've cited that and yeah, yeah, we've that's that's 914 01:00:08,413 --> 01:00:12,053 Speaker 3: highlighted in a chapter in our paper. It's really important 915 01:00:12,093 --> 01:00:13,253 Speaker 3: to understand. 916 01:00:12,933 --> 01:00:16,413 Speaker 2: Off the top of your head the four democratic myths. 917 01:00:16,813 --> 01:00:19,133 Speaker 2: Can you recall them? 918 01:00:19,293 --> 01:00:22,173 Speaker 3: I said, four democratic risks? Risks? 919 01:00:22,213 --> 01:00:22,893 Speaker 2: Sorry, did you? 920 01:00:23,693 --> 01:00:28,213 Speaker 3: Yeah? So the first thing is that they and this 921 01:00:28,333 --> 01:00:30,333 Speaker 3: is what you will talk about a lot, is that 922 01:00:30,373 --> 01:00:33,493 Speaker 3: they The first one is that digital IDs linked to 923 01:00:34,213 --> 01:00:39,573 Speaker 3: cbdc's enhance all of government oversight over private activity, so 924 01:00:39,613 --> 01:00:44,333 Speaker 3: that is surveillance on steroids. The second one is that 925 01:00:44,413 --> 01:00:49,893 Speaker 3: they will be transferred electronicity electronically using these pre programmable 926 01:00:49,893 --> 01:00:53,333 Speaker 3: smart contracts that are all so composable they can be 927 01:00:53,453 --> 01:00:57,133 Speaker 3: bundled together. Then we have the third one is the 928 01:00:57,173 --> 01:01:02,933 Speaker 3: potential for erosion of parliamentary oversight. So what will happen 929 01:01:03,053 --> 01:01:05,173 Speaker 3: is that the Reserve Bank of New Zealand will basically 930 01:01:05,253 --> 01:01:08,533 Speaker 3: take on more powers relating to money for production, and 931 01:01:08,573 --> 01:01:12,333 Speaker 3: that will be outside of the appropriations process that normally 932 01:01:12,453 --> 01:01:16,693 Speaker 3: is our democratic way of you know, creating ways which 933 01:01:16,733 --> 01:01:18,853 Speaker 3: say poorer communities might have a little bit of a 934 01:01:19,093 --> 01:01:23,093 Speaker 3: more access to resources or better access to health and education. 935 01:01:23,373 --> 01:01:29,293 Speaker 3: That helps, you know, results in less inequalities. So for example, 936 01:01:29,573 --> 01:01:33,253 Speaker 3: then the fourth one is the continued increase in oversight 937 01:01:33,373 --> 01:01:39,053 Speaker 3: and delegation of the production of policy, strategy and rules 938 01:01:39,093 --> 01:01:42,973 Speaker 3: to the BIS, that Bank of International Settlements and the 939 01:01:43,013 --> 01:01:46,253 Speaker 3: International Monetary Fund. So what happens is these guys, with 940 01:01:46,333 --> 01:01:49,573 Speaker 3: all their big white papers and all their big expertise, 941 01:01:50,093 --> 01:01:54,133 Speaker 3: they become the go to institution for the Reserve Bank. 942 01:01:54,173 --> 01:01:58,333 Speaker 3: Now we've already seen that following this massive, big consultation 943 01:01:58,453 --> 01:02:01,813 Speaker 3: with the IMF and twenty sixteen that resulted in all 944 01:02:01,893 --> 01:02:05,733 Speaker 3: this changing, including building in those too big to fail 945 01:02:05,933 --> 01:02:11,213 Speaker 3: clauses in the financial markets infrastructures at So we've got 946 01:02:11,213 --> 01:02:13,373 Speaker 3: those four risks and as well as that which we 947 01:02:13,373 --> 01:02:16,213 Speaker 3: didn't obviously I should have put in, is the financial 948 01:02:16,373 --> 01:02:20,773 Speaker 3: like this, the Reserve Bank has oversighted financial market. If 949 01:02:20,773 --> 01:02:23,493 Speaker 3: they enter as a player, they're saying, oh, no, it'll 950 01:02:23,533 --> 01:02:26,013 Speaker 3: be good because there'll just be another player. And I'm like, 951 01:02:26,413 --> 01:02:30,053 Speaker 3: so another player that can't go bust and is too 952 01:02:30,093 --> 01:02:34,973 Speaker 3: big to fail. That's not an equal playing field. So 953 01:02:35,133 --> 01:02:38,733 Speaker 3: you know, they're the main sort of risks because you know, 954 01:02:39,333 --> 01:02:41,373 Speaker 3: and then and then you've got that other risk that 955 01:02:41,413 --> 01:02:45,133 Speaker 3: they could there could be a digital run to foreigns. 956 01:02:45,493 --> 01:02:48,893 Speaker 3: So that our bank our central banks think that there 957 01:02:48,933 --> 01:02:52,733 Speaker 3: could be a digital run to foreign CBDCs if other 958 01:02:52,813 --> 01:02:58,853 Speaker 3: CBDCs are doing this, and it's unlikely. I think the biggest, 959 01:02:59,493 --> 01:03:03,453 Speaker 3: the biggest people aren't wanting to get on CBDCs because 960 01:03:03,453 --> 01:03:07,533 Speaker 3: they fundamentally don't trust the expanded oversight and powers of 961 01:03:07,573 --> 01:03:10,973 Speaker 3: the government. The only way governments right now getting people 962 01:03:11,013 --> 01:03:15,213 Speaker 3: into c bydcs is through regulatory or mission creep, where 963 01:03:15,493 --> 01:03:16,933 Speaker 3: they force people onto them. 964 01:03:17,733 --> 01:03:21,733 Speaker 2: I just questioned whether expanded oversight and whatever has reached 965 01:03:22,133 --> 01:03:26,413 Speaker 2: even fifty percent of the population, whether we are with 966 01:03:26,533 --> 01:03:29,573 Speaker 2: regard to all of this, And that takes me back 967 01:03:30,293 --> 01:03:33,133 Speaker 2: to your comments right at the beginning about the legacy 968 01:03:33,173 --> 01:03:37,973 Speaker 2: media and their failure, and I to be honest, they 969 01:03:38,133 --> 01:03:42,093 Speaker 2: don't deserve the job in the first place. That I often. 970 01:03:43,093 --> 01:03:49,773 Speaker 3: Well, I mates with the next mainstream journo, and they 971 01:03:50,213 --> 01:03:54,293 Speaker 3: got so sick and tired of basically pulling off the 972 01:03:54,333 --> 01:03:59,013 Speaker 3: Reuters press releases and rehashing that or the government agency 973 01:03:59,053 --> 01:04:03,213 Speaker 3: press releases and rehashing that they're disgusted by it. They 974 01:04:03,413 --> 01:04:06,533 Speaker 3: know that's the formulation of legacy media. 975 01:04:07,333 --> 01:04:10,293 Speaker 2: I wonder, because this has been so good and there's 976 01:04:10,373 --> 01:04:15,493 Speaker 2: been so much left unsaid and discussed, whether you would 977 01:04:15,533 --> 01:04:17,853 Speaker 2: consider a return in the not too di some future. 978 01:04:19,213 --> 01:04:23,773 Speaker 3: Well, I'd be grateful if I could just quickly talk 979 01:04:23,813 --> 01:04:26,933 Speaker 3: about psdr's recommendations in our paper. 980 01:04:28,213 --> 01:04:29,533 Speaker 2: I think you should go for it. 981 01:04:30,373 --> 01:04:33,573 Speaker 3: So what I think we can ask for so right now, 982 01:04:34,933 --> 01:04:39,653 Speaker 3: right now, they're looking at these digital cash trials. I 983 01:04:39,653 --> 01:04:43,573 Speaker 3: don't believe so I see trials as there is as 984 01:04:43,613 --> 01:04:48,373 Speaker 3: a soft launch, and so instead we should say that 985 01:04:48,413 --> 01:04:51,933 Speaker 3: there is a minimum sixty moderatorium two election cycles at 986 01:04:52,013 --> 01:04:55,933 Speaker 3: least until twenty thirty of any trial or CBDC release, 987 01:04:56,573 --> 01:04:59,773 Speaker 3: and so we can we can observe what is happening 988 01:04:59,773 --> 01:05:05,933 Speaker 3: in foreign jurisdictions. And then after twenty thirty that decision 989 01:05:06,373 --> 01:05:10,453 Speaker 3: for the RBNZ to enter the CBDC world should only 990 01:05:10,493 --> 01:05:14,893 Speaker 3: be taken by Parliament at all of people's vote. And 991 01:05:14,933 --> 01:05:17,013 Speaker 3: this is after we see a heck of a lot 992 01:05:17,053 --> 01:05:23,093 Speaker 3: of information and data produced by independent people. I also 993 01:05:23,773 --> 01:05:28,173 Speaker 3: we've also recommended that that digital ideas, digital IDs, a 994 01:05:28,253 --> 01:05:32,293 Speaker 3: real mey identity should never ever be the only form 995 01:05:32,813 --> 01:05:37,813 Speaker 3: of identity that is accepted by any government agency in 996 01:05:37,853 --> 01:05:42,973 Speaker 3: any form, and that passports and driver's licenses are equally acceptable, 997 01:05:43,853 --> 01:05:46,413 Speaker 3: and we know that passports and driver's license in Australia 998 01:05:46,413 --> 01:05:50,053 Speaker 3: have a historically low rate of fraud. And then the 999 01:05:50,133 --> 01:05:53,253 Speaker 3: fourth one is that the DA, with their expansion of 1000 01:05:53,333 --> 01:05:57,733 Speaker 3: powers and their capacity to control real meat, we should 1001 01:05:57,773 --> 01:06:02,853 Speaker 3: be really examining the context of information sharing cross government 1002 01:06:02,893 --> 01:06:06,013 Speaker 3: behind the scenes. So they were just before recommendations and 1003 01:06:06,053 --> 01:06:07,853 Speaker 3: I'd love to come back on it, mat. 1004 01:06:08,693 --> 01:06:11,733 Speaker 2: That would be great because I'm just looking at some 1005 01:06:12,013 --> 01:06:14,573 Speaker 2: stuff here. I have a full print out by the 1006 01:06:14,573 --> 01:06:19,053 Speaker 2: way of the of the monster stepping back, stepping back 1007 01:06:19,053 --> 01:06:23,813 Speaker 2: from the brink where where you said you said that 1008 01:06:23,893 --> 01:06:31,333 Speaker 2: the original one which arrived in my inbox was from 1009 01:06:31,373 --> 01:06:33,573 Speaker 2: the Telegraph. 1010 01:06:33,613 --> 01:06:37,333 Speaker 3: So you've got you've got the If there is a 1011 01:06:37,413 --> 01:06:40,933 Speaker 3: Daily Telegraph New Zealand article that's come out, hope I'm 1012 01:06:40,973 --> 01:06:44,013 Speaker 3: hoping will be a Brownstone paper coming out next week. 1013 01:06:44,773 --> 01:06:53,973 Speaker 3: But if you search for on Instagram, on Twitter, on substatic, 1014 01:06:54,533 --> 01:06:59,413 Speaker 3: and you will for at p s g r n 1015 01:06:59,533 --> 01:07:03,533 Speaker 3: Z so psgr is in New Zealand, twenty five year 1016 01:07:03,573 --> 01:07:05,693 Speaker 3: old New Zealand charity. We've been around for ages, but 1017 01:07:05,733 --> 01:07:07,453 Speaker 3: we've got no money, so no one knows about it. 1018 01:07:07,973 --> 01:07:11,453 Speaker 3: And ENDZ is on the end because that is the 1019 01:07:11,453 --> 01:07:15,453 Speaker 3: only like, the only handle I could get that is consistent. 1020 01:07:15,533 --> 01:07:19,253 Speaker 3: So if you search for PSCR and Z on subset, 1021 01:07:19,253 --> 01:07:25,853 Speaker 3: Twitter or Instagram, you'll find a link to us, and 1022 01:07:25,893 --> 01:07:28,293 Speaker 3: you'll find a link to the paper or ps TR 1023 01:07:28,773 --> 01:07:29,893 Speaker 3: dot org dot. 1024 01:07:29,773 --> 01:07:35,333 Speaker 2: NZ, PSCR dot org dot NZ that eighty page ninety 1025 01:07:35,373 --> 01:07:38,933 Speaker 2: page whatever piece is. They're both worth reading. Start with 1026 01:07:39,013 --> 01:07:42,933 Speaker 2: the shorter one and you'll know you'll get a line 1027 01:07:42,973 --> 01:07:45,613 Speaker 2: on yourself if you find that you're interested in more. 1028 01:07:46,253 --> 01:07:52,293 Speaker 2: And I'd approve that. So Jodie, it's been great and 1029 01:07:52,373 --> 01:07:53,653 Speaker 2: we shall talk soon. 1030 01:07:54,853 --> 01:07:57,333 Speaker 3: An absolute pleasure, late, and thank you for this chance. 1031 01:08:02,253 --> 01:08:05,453 Speaker 2: Now I have to report some bad news. We did 1032 01:08:05,493 --> 01:08:07,493 Speaker 2: have a mailroom and it was a very good mail 1033 01:08:07,533 --> 01:08:11,813 Speaker 2: room I my dad. Unfortunately the male failed to get delivered. 1034 01:08:12,173 --> 01:08:15,093 Speaker 2: That covers a lot of areas I know, and it's 1035 01:08:15,093 --> 01:08:17,813 Speaker 2: got all of us confused, but it's going to have 1036 01:08:17,893 --> 01:08:22,293 Speaker 2: to wait until next time. So the only thing left 1037 01:08:22,293 --> 01:08:27,493 Speaker 2: to say is with apologies of course, is that we 1038 01:08:27,533 --> 01:08:30,573 Speaker 2: shall return with two forty five in the not too 1039 01:08:30,573 --> 01:08:34,053 Speaker 2: distant future. Until then, thank you for listening and we 1040 01:08:34,093 --> 01:08:34,813 Speaker 2: shall talk soon. 1041 01:08:42,613 --> 01:08:46,333 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks ed B. Listen 1042 01:08:46,373 --> 01:08:49,373 Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with 1043 01:08:49,453 --> 01:08:52,613 Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio