1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,733 Speaker 1: from News Talks at b. 3 00:00:12,733 --> 00:00:16,453 Speaker 2: In the end, it was kind of an anti climax. 4 00:00:16,933 --> 00:00:23,253 Speaker 2: After almost eighteen months of debate, anger, obfuscation, Hekoi and 5 00:00:23,333 --> 00:00:28,693 Speaker 2: Hukker and hundreds of thousands of submissions, the Treaty Principal's 6 00:00:28,693 --> 00:00:33,693 Speaker 2: Bill was voted down in fairly emphatic style. I suspect 7 00:00:34,253 --> 00:00:38,013 Speaker 2: the majority of New Zealanders are just so over it. 8 00:00:39,173 --> 00:00:41,853 Speaker 2: Looking back, I would say that David Seymour in act 9 00:00:42,093 --> 00:00:45,493 Speaker 2: largely got what they wanted to. Party Maudi were perhaps 10 00:00:45,813 --> 00:00:50,173 Speaker 2: even greater political beneficiaries, and the whole saga will endure 11 00:00:50,173 --> 00:00:52,413 Speaker 2: as a bit of a stain on Christopher Luxon's tenure 12 00:00:52,453 --> 00:00:55,693 Speaker 2: as Prime Minister. It was telling that once again, just 13 00:00:55,733 --> 00:00:59,613 Speaker 2: as for the first reading, this week's vote was scheduled 14 00:00:59,653 --> 00:01:02,293 Speaker 2: for a time when the PM wasn't in the House. 15 00:01:02,733 --> 00:01:06,253 Speaker 2: I just think being there and suffering through it would 16 00:01:06,253 --> 00:01:10,413 Speaker 2: have perhaps shown greater leadership. I watched the speeches in 17 00:01:10,453 --> 00:01:13,773 Speaker 2: Parliament and I thought David Seymour was right in his observation. 18 00:01:13,933 --> 00:01:17,773 Speaker 2: Almost none actually considered the substance of the government's defined 19 00:01:17,893 --> 00:01:21,413 Speaker 2: treaty principles. Like most of the debate outside of Parliament. 20 00:01:21,533 --> 00:01:25,173 Speaker 2: They were all emotion at times. I think what was 21 00:01:25,213 --> 00:01:29,253 Speaker 2: supposed to be a constitutional debate was boiled down to 22 00:01:29,293 --> 00:01:37,133 Speaker 2: a pretty basic and unedifying level pro Mardi versus anti Maudi. Personally, 23 00:01:38,813 --> 00:01:42,133 Speaker 2: I look, I tried to engage with the detail of 24 00:01:42,173 --> 00:01:45,253 Speaker 2: the bill and good faith I always do. I actually 25 00:01:45,293 --> 00:01:48,533 Speaker 2: think that one of the most underrated qualities in people 26 00:01:48,733 --> 00:01:51,853 Speaker 2: in this day and age is a genuine capacity to 27 00:01:51,893 --> 00:01:57,573 Speaker 2: think critically or even to change your mind. It's weird. 28 00:01:57,733 --> 00:02:00,093 Speaker 2: It seems so simple and yet so hard for so 29 00:02:00,173 --> 00:02:04,013 Speaker 2: many people. It's a curiously strange thing these days, a 30 00:02:04,133 --> 00:02:07,293 Speaker 2: rare thing to come across someone who doesn't instantly default 31 00:02:07,293 --> 00:02:11,773 Speaker 2: to their team or their side. It seemed to me, though, 32 00:02:11,973 --> 00:02:15,893 Speaker 2: that there was a fundamental problem with the proposed treaty principles, 33 00:02:16,453 --> 00:02:19,133 Speaker 2: and that was that they didn't accurately reflect what the 34 00:02:19,173 --> 00:02:24,133 Speaker 2: treaty actually says. The treat specifically guarantees Maldi ten or 35 00:02:24,173 --> 00:02:28,053 Speaker 2: dung teta tongue. It has, if you like, like a 36 00:02:28,093 --> 00:02:32,573 Speaker 2: Maldi specific carve out that did not appear in Acts interpretation, 37 00:02:33,413 --> 00:02:36,773 Speaker 2: and in my view that absence was like just absolutely critical. 38 00:02:38,173 --> 00:02:40,933 Speaker 2: Many of the bill's opponents accused Act of a cynical 39 00:02:40,973 --> 00:02:43,293 Speaker 2: approach to the debate, like I can't speak for the 40 00:02:43,293 --> 00:02:47,093 Speaker 2: party's motivations, but I do think the most honest approach 41 00:02:47,533 --> 00:02:50,773 Speaker 2: would have been to define the principles by what is 42 00:02:50,853 --> 00:02:54,493 Speaker 2: clearly said in the treaty, rather than what anyone thinks 43 00:02:54,653 --> 00:02:58,493 Speaker 2: should be said in the treaty. And I suppose that 44 00:02:58,573 --> 00:03:02,413 Speaker 2: leads me to my to my final point. The Treaty 45 00:03:02,773 --> 00:03:07,853 Speaker 2: is clearly an imperfect document. The English and Mardi versions 46 00:03:08,733 --> 00:03:12,293 Speaker 2: say different things, are open to different interpretations. There is 47 00:03:12,373 --> 00:03:17,013 Speaker 2: no returning New Zealand to the country it was, or 48 00:03:17,053 --> 00:03:19,093 Speaker 2: the land it was, or the place it was in 49 00:03:19,173 --> 00:03:21,853 Speaker 2: eighteen forty. And in the context of the modern day, 50 00:03:21,893 --> 00:03:25,373 Speaker 2: the treaty is kind of clunky. So I reckon David 51 00:03:25,413 --> 00:03:31,773 Speaker 2: Smore's broader desire about more purposefully defining the treaty's application 52 00:03:32,213 --> 00:03:34,973 Speaker 2: in the treaty's meaning in modern New Zealand is a 53 00:03:34,973 --> 00:03:38,573 Speaker 2: good one, or at least worthy of more consideration, Like, 54 00:03:38,653 --> 00:03:42,093 Speaker 2: for example, I just wonder if two hundred years from 55 00:03:42,093 --> 00:03:47,173 Speaker 2: its signing, New Zealand should aspire towards developing some sort 56 00:03:47,173 --> 00:03:51,093 Speaker 2: of a written constitution underpinned by the Treaty that gives 57 00:03:51,093 --> 00:03:55,653 Speaker 2: it better and clearer effect in the modern world. I 58 00:03:55,693 --> 00:03:58,933 Speaker 2: think to treat to your White Ungy, the Treaty of 59 00:03:58,933 --> 00:04:02,653 Speaker 2: White Tungy was meant to unify in New Zealand. I 60 00:04:02,653 --> 00:04:07,173 Speaker 2: think that was its purpose, and if we're honest, this 61 00:04:07,293 --> 00:04:10,373 Speaker 2: debate has probably had the opposite effect. But I still 62 00:04:10,373 --> 00:04:13,973 Speaker 2: have faith I do that once the dust settles, we 63 00:04:14,133 --> 00:04:18,013 Speaker 2: can collectively find a way to constructively have these conversations 64 00:04:18,773 --> 00:04:20,733 Speaker 2: and move New Zealand forward. 65 00:04:21,293 --> 00:04:24,373 Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live 66 00:04:24,493 --> 00:04:27,333 Speaker 1: to News Talks a B from nine am Saturday, or 67 00:04:27,413 --> 00:04:29,293 Speaker 1: follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.