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Speaker 1: Bright, World Athletics is going to make female track and

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Speaker 1: field athletes do a DNA test to prove they are

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Speaker 1: biologically female. Athletes will be subject to a non invasive

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Speaker 1: cheek swab, it's face cheek swab, and a dry blood

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Speaker 1: spot test, and that would only be done once in

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Speaker 1: their career. Dave Gerard is a former Olympian emeritus professor

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Speaker 1: in Sports Medicine at Otaga University. He's with me this evening. Hi, Dave, Oh, Hi, Ryan,

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Speaker 1: What exactly does the DNA test tell us?

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Speaker 2: Well, it confirms, Ryan, whether we are biologically male or female.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is the contentious issue that has arisen,

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Speaker 2: and I think it was highlighted at the Olympics in

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Speaker 2: Paris league controversy over the two boxers who were considered

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Speaker 2: not to be of the sex in which they were fighting.

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Speaker 2: And I think this is where the controversy over gender,

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Speaker 2: which is an affirmation, and sex, which is a biologically

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Speaker 2: determined fact it can't be changed. I think this is

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Speaker 2: where the controversy arose, and I think World Athletics are

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Speaker 2: doing their bit to ensure that people who do compete

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Speaker 2: in women's events are truly biological female athletes.

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Speaker 1: And does is the test accurate? I mean, is it?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Yes?

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Speaker 1: All right, so no question about that.

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Speaker 2: And I want to know if science is very very solid,

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Speaker 2: and it's been. I mean, it's used in common medical

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Speaker 2: practice for genetic issues and to determine the sex of individuals.

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Speaker 2: So it is sound and it is sound science.

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Speaker 1: What about this argument that if you have transitioned after

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Speaker 1: or if you've transitioned, say during teenage, so you've never

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Speaker 1: had the advantage of testosterone during your formative years, that

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Speaker 1: might influence you know, your performance later in your career.

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Speaker 1: Does that come into it? This is quite a line

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Speaker 1: in the sand, isn't it. It's basically saying if you

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Speaker 1: were born a female, you're not welcoming athletics.

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Speaker 2: No, it's saying, if you were born a biologically female,

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Speaker 2: you are entitled to compete in women's events. That's conflating

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Speaker 2: the terms gender and sex. I think when we talk

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Speaker 2: about males and females, we're talking about sex. When we

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Speaker 2: talk about men and women, we're talking about your affirmation

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Speaker 2: as a man or a woman. Yes, which may not

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Speaker 2: be in accordance with your sex allocated at birth. Does

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Speaker 2: that make sense? Yes?

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Speaker 1: So basically I got it round the wrong way because

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Speaker 1: it gets confusing when you start to but if you're

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Speaker 1: born biologically male years then you cannot compete.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's true. I mean the reason we have

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Speaker 2: what's called the binary and sport is that biological females

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Speaker 2: and biological males differ from the time of puberty, where

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Speaker 2: the liberation of testosterone, the male hormone, is ten to

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Speaker 2: fifteen times higher in males. And it's the difference between

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Speaker 2: developing stature, strength, muscle power, endurance, and various other factors

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Speaker 2: which give a discriminator between men and women. It's why

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Speaker 2: no women's world record in any sport is faster or

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Speaker 2: higher or longer than any male. It's a question of

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Speaker 2: fairness and it's an acknowledgment of normal biological development and.

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Speaker 1: A nutshell in a word, day Is this the right move?

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Speaker 2: I think it is Ryan, and I think it kind

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Speaker 2: of sidesteps the controversy that arose in Paris, where Thomas Bark,

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Speaker 2: the IOC president, said, well, as far as I'm concerned,

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Speaker 2: what's written in their passports and the way that these

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Speaker 2: two athletes were brought up, In other words, they were

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Speaker 2: brought up as female is good enough for me. So

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Speaker 2: he put aside the science, which would have, I think,

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Speaker 2: put the debate to rest. And he went on a

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Speaker 2: fairly fundamental and ideological principle of saying, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: in their passports it says they're women and they've been

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Speaker 2: brought up as women. That's good enough for me.

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Speaker 1: So this is bringing it back to bringing it back

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Speaker 1: to the science, Dave, which obviously is your field as well.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate your time, Dave Gerrard, who's a former Olympian

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Speaker 1: emeritus professor in Sports Medicine at Ottaga University.

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