WEBVTT - Ceasefire deal ends hostage crisis but Gaza’s future uncertain 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:05.880 Kyota. 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:09.240 I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:17.400 daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. Emotional scenes 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.160 in the Middle East as hostages reunite with their families 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:26.680 across Israel. Bus loads of Palestinian prisoners have also arrived 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:31.040 to large crowds in Gaza in an exchange broken by 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:33.080 US President Donald Trump. 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:34.920 Meanwhile, Trump and. 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:38.800 Other world leaders have signed a ceasefire deal during a 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:43.040 summit in Egypt. So could all of this bring lasting 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.960 peace to the region? Today on the front page, University 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:51.320 of Otago International Relations professor Robert Patman is with us 0:00:51.640 --> 0:00:56.120 to discuss whether this actually is, as Trump says, the 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:04.240 historic dawn of a new Middle East. So, Robert, incredible 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:10.520 scenes seeing the last twenty living hostages reunite with family members. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.400 Tell me how has all this come about? 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.959 Well, it's come about in quite short order. Because you 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:20.880 remember that when mister Trump first came to office for 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:24.120 the second time in January this year, he told Natanni 0:01:24.319 --> 0:01:27.160 to finish the job. He said that on the campaign trail, 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:33.039 But to his credit, he did oversee a cease fire 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.680 in January of this year and put pressure on Neatni 0:01:36.880 --> 0:01:41.200 to accept it. But mister Netni who exited from the 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.160 second phase of the ceasefire in March of this year 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.040 without consequence, and that upset of many people looking in 0:01:49.280 --> 0:01:53.800 or looking from abut file. Mister nen who had a 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:56.440 choice by the second phase of the ceasefire that was 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:00.760 started in January, he could accept all the remaining hostages 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.360 and bringing it permanent into the war. He chose not 0:02:04.440 --> 0:02:07.240 to have the hostages at that stage and continue the war. 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.200 But since then a lot has happened, and the real catalyst, 0:02:11.240 --> 0:02:15.760 I think was Israel's attack on Kata in Doha in 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:18.000 I think it was around about early September round about 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:23.680 that period, and both Saudi Arabia and Katar and a 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.600 number of other Arab countries Egypt, which are all important 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.200 to the administration, I think basically read the right actor 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.799 Trump and said this has got to stop because Kata 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.440 had been involved in mediation efforts at the request of 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.399 Israel and the United States, and they were absolutely outraged 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:47.560 by the fact that Israel without warning killed five Hamas 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:54.839 officials in Doha and also a Qatari security official. And 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:59.200 I think mister Trump was suddenly presented with tough choices 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:04.000 he could continue to give mister Yahoo a blank check, 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:09.919 or he could listen to countries like Katar, where America 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:13.920 has its largest military base in the Middle East, and 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.480 he decided, I think, to try to bring about a 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:20.440 peace settlement in light of that incident. So I do 0:03:20.520 --> 0:03:24.360 think the crucial catalyst for this was the Israeli attack 0:03:25.280 --> 0:03:29.000 on a close ally of the United States cut Art, 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:33.360 and I think that I think they made it quite clear. 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:37.480 Saudi Arabia and Katar said to mister Trump, you can't 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:39.680 have your cake and eat it. You can't go on 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:43.560 supporting Netinaho while he attacks us. So you're going to 0:03:43.600 --> 0:03:47.960 have to start exerting some leadership here. And the Americans 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:49.800 have always had leverage in this situation. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.279 Well, Trump has said that the long and painful nightmare 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:57.240 is finally over, is it. 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:02.000 No? No, this is a well come step forward. Let's 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.920 be quite clear, this situation didn't occur overnight. It's been 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:08.600 two years in the making. Following the dreadful Hamas a 0:04:08.800 --> 0:04:12.080 terrorist attack on Israel, we then had mister Nilhu's campaign 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:17.920 of mighty vengeance. Something like more than sixty seven thousand 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:22.720 Palestinians have died, an intensive bombardment of gals that eighty 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:27.119 percent of the Palestinians killed have been civilians, including around 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:31.680 twenty thousand children. So there's been enormous and unimaginable suffering. 0:04:32.120 --> 0:04:36.839 So to declare it over maybe premature. What we can 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.359 see is that all sides have signed up to the 0:04:39.360 --> 0:04:44.320 first phase of the agreement, and the first phase involves 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:52.320 all living Israeli hostages being released. That's happened. In return, 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:57.000 Israel has released about two thousand Palestinian prisoners, including four 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.240 hundred children. A key part of the first phase is 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:06.320 the unrestricted distribution of humanitarian aid. In Gaza, five hundred 0:05:06.360 --> 0:05:10.320 thousand Palestinians, according to the UN, are currently facing starvation. 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:16.880 So the ceasefire could not come quick enough and it's welcome. Also, 0:05:17.440 --> 0:05:20.440 it's welcome the hostages have been released, and it's welcome 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:27.240 that long last, we hope unrestricted distribution of food aid 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:27.719 will occur. 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.240 How can we ensure that that actually happens. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.560 Well, I think, first of all, mister Trump has put 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:39.560 his name to it happening, so he's now got a 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:43.120 stake having extended the brand, the Trump brand, if you 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.560 want to put it that way, to peace, and I 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:48.880 think many Arab countries which want a two state solution, 0:05:49.480 --> 0:05:52.159 as does much of the community, including the international community, 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:56.120 including our country, believe that mister Trump is the person 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:59.680 to exercise leverage with mister Nian Yahoo. But it's going 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.239 to be The reason I expressed caution at the outset 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:06.800 Chelsea in response to your question, is that the easy 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:13.520 part has been done, returning hostages, bringing a cease fire, 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:19.240 telling the military to stop bombarding Gaza, and hopefully allowing 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:22.159 trucks which have been waiting in the border laden with 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:27.839 food to go in. The more difficult part is now 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:32.760 the future of Gaza. Under the agreement, Israel has to 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:38.000 carry out a phased withdrawal in return for Hamas disarming. 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:43.320 But here comes a particular problem. Hamas may be reluctant 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.400 to disarm because it's given up its only form of 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.640 leaver ridge, which is the hostages. Also, mister netn Yahoo 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.479 has given no indication he will accept a Palestinian state. 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:57.440 That's a problem because, and it's a huge omission. In 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:01.520 the twenty point plan, there is no commit no explicit 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:07.800 commitment to the Palestinian right of political self determination. Are 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:10.560 right by the way for all peoples under the UN 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:16.000 Charter and this, you can see a potential stumbling block 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:20.840 occurring here. Now, I think countries like kata Egypt and 0:07:20.880 --> 0:07:25.040 Saudi Arabia have no illusions about the difficulty ahead, but 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:29.720 I think they believe it's it's a calculated risk worth 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:34.000 taking because if mister Trump on board, if mister netna 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.480 Who starts digging in and refusing to withdraw his forces, 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.800 then I think they calculate mister Trump will feel sufficiently 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.720 invested to start leaning on Netta Yahu. 0:07:45.360 --> 0:07:46.440 But it is Trump. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:50.400 The only reason why netnya who will do that? 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:52.400 Is that what we're counting on here. 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.840 Oh yeah, I mean, you know, let's be quite clear, 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.160 it's welcome that mister Trump has taken this step. Both 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:03.800 the bidenmenstration and the Trump administration bear enormous responsibility for 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:07.760 the fact that ninety two percent of all residential buildings 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:13.280 have been destroyed in Gaza and about ninety percent of 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:17.120 Palestines have been displaced. Without American power backing Israel, none 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.920 of this could happen. Four fifths of the munitions used 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.720 in Gaza have been provided by the United States, So 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:29.360 it's slightly ironic when mister Trump presents America as being 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:35.440 you know the peacemaker this situation, both Israel and America bear, 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:41.200 as well as Hamas, considerable responsibility for the carnage that's occurred. 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.760 It's welcome, though, that mister Trump has decided that trajectory 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.200 can't continue. And I think another big sticking point in 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:53.400 the second phase of this agreement, as well as whether 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:56.400 mister Nick who can be persuaded to accept a Palestinian 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:03.720 state without Hamas's involvement, Another sticking point will be the 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:07.720 huge task of rebuilding Gaza. Now. Mister Trump said in 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:15.520 his speech in Shake in Egypt Charma l Shake, he 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.200 said that a number of wealthy Arab countries will be 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:25.000 happy to support the rebuilding of Gaza. Well, I'm not 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.920 sure Israel. How does Israel feel about that? Because they're responsible, 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:36.600 the IDEF is responsible for leveling Gaza, will they be 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:43.800 comfortable about many of their neighbors rebuilding Gaza? That raises 0:09:43.840 --> 0:09:48.480 the question, shouldn't Israel? Shouldn't there be some accountability for 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:52.040 what Israel has done? And just imagine how angry many 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:55.360 Palestinians are once they get over this terrible ideal of 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:57.800 not having enough food and dodging in the bullets and bombs. 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.199 Once their life becomes the new normal, then most of 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:03.600 them haven't got a home to return too. So you've 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:08.960 got a lot of potential sources of tension ahead. But yeah, 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:14.320 I mean it's it's I think a lot will depend 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.960 whether this piece can be sustained on whether mister Trump's 0:10:19.040 --> 0:10:22.079 attention can be sustained on the problem. I think one 0:10:22.160 --> 0:10:25.200 or two actors have signed up to this on the 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:29.760 assumption either that the President's attention can be sustained because 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.559 he's put his name to it, or that it can't 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:35.240 be sustained. And I think this is the assumption mister 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:38.840 Nettignan who is adhering too, and he can quietly ignore 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:39.360 the president. 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:49.719 With the historic agreement we've just signed, those prayers of 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:54.200 millions have finally been answered, as you know, the hostages 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:58.560 have been returned, and further work goes on having to 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:04.000 do with the sadly to save buddies. Together, we've achieved 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.640 what everybody said was impossible. At long last, we have 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.400 peace in the Middle East. And it's a very simple 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:13.200 expression piece in the Middle East, and we've heard it 0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.600 for many years, but nobody thought it could ever get there, 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:16.440 And now we're there. 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.640 Wow, Trump's got the full attention because he's after a 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.320 Nobel Peace Prize next time round, isn't he? 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:26.040 So there is. 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:28.800 Something round for he was going for one this time. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.560 Yeah, but he's the nominations closed, right, Yeah. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:35.520 But this is ironic, isn't it? Because mister Trump has 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.600 been restricting the rights of people within the United States, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:42.280 particularly on university campuses, who have been demanding US ease 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:46.320 firing Gaza, and suddenly he's embraced the idea and he 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.200 wants a Nobel Peace Prize for belatedly accepting an idea 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:54.040 that much of the international community. It shouldn't be forgotten, 0:11:54.880 --> 0:12:00.120 Chelsea that on the twenty seventh October twenty twenty three, 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:02.480 the majority of countries more than one hundred and forty 0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.880 what did the immediate cease fire? It was the United 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:11.000 States under the Biden administration, which five times exercised the 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.600 veto to prevent the cease fire, and then the Trump 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.800 administration exercised the veto to prevent the cease fire. So 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:19.640 you know, we've got to put this in some ports persective. 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:22.079 Just because mister Trump was the ne Elberg Beace Prize. 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:25.959 It's not just based on performative acts. It's also based 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:32.080 on sustained commitment and demonstrated dedication. I'm not sure that's 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:33.959 self evidently the case. 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:37.600 I saw Trump posing with other world leaders in Egypt 0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:42.560 behind that big piece twenty twenty five sign one person 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:45.880 not in attendance though, Benjamin Netanya, who should we read 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:46.319 into that? 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:46.840 Well? 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:48.800 I think some of the leaders made it quite clear, 0:12:48.880 --> 0:12:51.880 you know, mister nettnia who's under an arrest warrant from 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.559 the International Criminal Court. In addition, a number of countries, 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:01.319 Turkey in particular, indicated they would not attend if Nettignao, 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:04.480 who does actually turn up, I think the Americans probably 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:07.160 prevailed or Nettnao who not to turn up, given the 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.480 reaction that mister Trump was getting from countries that he 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:15.440 wants to have constructive relations with, such as Turkey, which 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:17.520 you know, mister Trump went out of his way to 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:22.440 praise Turkey, mister Odowan at the summit in Egypt. The 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:26.000 crucial thing here is, however, we're not going to get 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.880 a stable or reliable peace in the Middle East until 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.480 Israel's desire for security is matched by a recognition by 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:40.520 an Israeli leader. The Palestinians need a peaceful path towards 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.679 political self determination. The Hamas issue is a side show. Basically, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:49.439 one of the reasons Hamas Scott leverage is because Israel, 0:13:49.480 --> 0:13:53.680 according to the International Court of Justice, illegally occupies three 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:59.960 Palestinian territories, East Jerusalem or the West Bank and Gaza. 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:04.920 So until that picture changes, until Israel recognizes that their 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.839 long term security cannot be achieved by military means, a 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.160 position our Foreign minister has always maintained to be the case, 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.840 and I agree with him that there's no military solution. 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:20.640 You can't bomb your wage of security. Until the post 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:23.480 unies are given the option of ignoring Hamas and forming 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.760 their own state, then this situation is likely to flare 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:30.640 up again. In other words, if mister Netnia, who thinks 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:34.640 he can simply have fabulous relations with always Arab neighbors 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.080 backed by the United States, and basically take over the 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:44.960 West Bank and virtually control Gaza, then I think this 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:46.360 thing will quickly fall apart. 0:14:46.440 --> 0:14:51.280 What is the key ingredient that needs to happen for 0:14:51.440 --> 0:14:54.160 it not to fall apart like we've seen it fall 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:54.960 apart before. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.440 Well, As I said, at the risk of repetition, I 0:14:57.480 --> 0:15:00.680 think there needs to be a recognition in televisi in 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:04.560 Israel that the Palestinians. They came close to it in 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:10.000 the Oslo process in the early nineties of recognizing you 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:16.920 cannot simply exclude another people from achieving statehood, and the 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.640 State of Israel was created in nineteen forty eight. That 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.320 resulted in the displacement of a lot of Palestinians. No 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.200 one suggesting in their right mind that we can go 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:29.840 back to that and all the Israelis leave. I think 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.960 what we could hope for, however, is two states living 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:39.040 side by side, and a Palestinian state being based on 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.120 the territories of the West Bank, which are currently occupied 0:15:44.080 --> 0:15:48.240 Gaza and East Jerusalem. And that's how the Palestinians see it. 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:53.400 So they're prepared to recognize and accept Israel, but they 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.400 do want those territories to be liberated, as they see it. 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.480 And does all this hinge on the fact that every 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:06.400 member of Hamas put down their weapons and say enough 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:06.880 is enough. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:11.000 Yeah, but you know this, be quite clear about this. 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:15.960 Hamas is a terrorist organization, but it's also a resistance group. 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.440 That is to say, Hamas only came into being because, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.000 first of all, the Israelis did not take the Palestinian 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.520 authority seriously and sidelined it in the West Bank. And 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:31.720 Hamas presents itself as a militant resistance group to Israeli occupation, 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:37.400 so it's a child or an offshoot of occupation. If 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:42.360 you want to defang or undermine Hamas, you need to 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:48.480 give Palestinians a peaceful path to self determination. It was 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:50.960 John F. Kennedy who said shortly before he was killed, 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.680 if the path to peaceful self determination for people is blocked, 0:16:55.400 --> 0:17:00.400 then extremism and terrorism is surely follow and unfortunately least 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:04.199 is very very much confirmed. I think the wisdom of 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:06.840 those words. It's not going to be an easy path. 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:11.280 But there are a number of people in Israel I 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:16.480 would say that, a distinct minority who believe that there 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.399 has to be a mutual understanding between the Palestins and 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:22.520 the Israelis along the lines we've discussed. 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.920 So what are the next steps of this ceasefire plan. 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.040 Well, the next steps we understand is for there to 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:36.760 be the appointment of non political, technocratic Palestinians to run Gaza, 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:40.280 at least the part of it where Israel doesn't control, 0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:47.520 and that governance body will be overseen by what mister 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:52.000 Trump called a Board of Peace headed by himself and 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.560 including people like Tony Blair, who's got enormous baggage in 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:57.480 the Middle East area. 0:17:57.800 --> 0:17:59.920 I mean, mister Blair get along with them the first 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:00.760 time round? 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:01.960 Did he well? 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:05.400 No, mister Blair has been widely criticized because for many 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:11.000 Arabs states, mister Blair's reputation has been tainted by his 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:14.800 involvement in the invasion of it Raq giving him green 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.840 light to America going ahead. But also he's had other 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:25.320 involvements with in the quartet as it was Corn and 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.080 it's quite a controversial move. I mean. The crucial thing, 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.600 I think from the point of view of Arab states 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:37.520 will be some recognition the Palestinians have a part to 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:41.119 play in determining their own destiny, because at the moment, 0:18:41.320 --> 0:18:45.679 what is conspicuous is absent from the Board of Peace 0:18:45.920 --> 0:18:47.440 or Palestinian representatives. 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:56.880 Now, these are first steps, and anybody that's ever had 0:18:56.920 --> 0:18:59.359 any regard to the history of this area will know 0:18:59.480 --> 0:19:04.199 to be cautious. However, you've got our biggest cross People 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.080 in different countries are putting a lot of work into this, 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:12.280 and it is possible, just hopefully that peace will be 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:14.480 breaking out and it'll be permanent. 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.680 How do we know that this isn't going to fall over? 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:27.040 We don't. But unless you know, life is in politics 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:30.440 is often a choice between the disagreeable or the intolerable, 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.960 and the situation we have just witnessed the last two 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.000 years for most of us was intolerable. So what's happening 0:19:39.000 --> 0:19:42.760 now maybe not be perfectly agreeable, but at least it 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:48.280 represents a possibility of movement. So what I found slightly 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:53.800 encouraging is that many of the Arabs countries, like Egypt, 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:59.399 which borders Gaza Saudi Arabia Both Saudi Arabian Egypt are 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:04.400 close alli of the United States, as is Katar. They 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:09.000 seem determined now, and it's belated. I wonder where they 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:11.560 were for the first two years of this crisis, because 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.840 they remained distinctly limp and weak and not demanding justice 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.320 for the Palestinians. But they now have seem to it 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:24.399 after the attack by Israel and Katar reached a new 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:27.639 resolution that there must be a two states solution and 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:31.639 if there isn't, their own security is possibly threatened. So 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:38.000 and now this presents mister Trump with I think more constraints. 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:45.080 American decision makers have traditionally been pro Israeli, and they've 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:50.520 usually been very supportive of israel I. Think what may 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:54.760 be happening from here on in We don't know, but 0:20:55.600 --> 0:21:03.480 at least the expectation is amongst leaders from Turkey, is Indonesia, Egypt, 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.440 Saudi Arabia, is that mister Trump's going to be more 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.480 even handed from now on and begin to take into 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:15.080 account the aspirations of the Palestinians as well as the Israelis. 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:20.359 We don't know whether that hope will be realized or 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:24.520 whether it will not be realized, but it's certainly bringing 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.919 a cease fire to a situation of unimaginable suffering. I mean, 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:34.360 quite frankly, it's been an international disgrace Chelsea. And it's 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:39.159 not just the Israelis and the Americans bearing responsibility for it, 0:21:39.200 --> 0:21:42.520 as well as Amas. You have to think more deeply 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:47.399 and say, where was the UN Security Council. You know, 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:52.840 this organization has the responsibility to uphold global peace and security. 0:21:53.600 --> 0:21:58.000 It was found wanting when the Russians invaded Ukraine. It's 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:02.600 been found wanting in the situation we've just wanted the 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:05.960 last year. It was failed to present itself as a 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:08.920 barrier to war and peace. Why because five members of 0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:13.400 the Security Council can exercise the veto to perpetuate conflicts 0:22:13.440 --> 0:22:17.159 about gaza. So one thing I'd like to see is 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:20.160 steps taken to ensure there can be no more gazas. 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:22.320 What does that mean. It means reform with U N 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.720 Security Council. We have to constrain the veto powers of 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.440 five countries. In the twenty first century, We're in a 0:22:29.520 --> 0:22:33.800 ridiculous situation where five countries determine matters of war and 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.720 peace for the whole planet. So while they've got that 0:22:36.880 --> 0:22:39.520 nice little perk of a veto, the rest of the 0:22:39.560 --> 0:22:42.640 world is paying the price for that perk, and I'm 0:22:42.640 --> 0:22:44.840 not sure the rest of the world wants to put 0:22:44.920 --> 0:22:45.840 up with it for too long. 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:47.439 Thanks for joining us, Robert. 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:48.320 Thank you. 0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:54.720 That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 0:22:54.760 --> 0:22:58.640 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.040 at enziherld dot co dot nz. 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.480 The Front Page is produced by Jane Yee and Richard Martin, 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.040 who is also our editor. I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:23:09.480 --> 0:23:12.679 Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:16.400 get your podcasts and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:17.640 behind the headlines.