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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks be follow

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Speaker 1: this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: The Secret Conclave is underway to elect a new pope.

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Speaker 2: Professor Peter Liinam has written and lectured extensively on religious history.

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Speaker 2: Here is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to

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Speaker 2: the process behind the conclave and the election of a

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Speaker 2: new pope, and he joins us now, Professor Lynon, good afternoon,

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon to you.

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Speaker 3: So we go right back to the very basics. Who

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Speaker 3: can be pope? Who is actually eligible for the job?

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Speaker 4: So the popes are drawn from the cardinals of the church,

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Speaker 4: and the cardinals the office was created as a specific

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Speaker 4: way to create a kind of an elite cabinet for

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Speaker 4: the church. And originally there weren't very many of them.

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Speaker 4: Now of course we've got one hundred and thirty five,

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Speaker 4: but it was originally actually local Italian cardinals who fulfill

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Speaker 4: these roles.

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Speaker 3: And so it can only be from one of them.

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Speaker 3: It can't be I don't know, just someone that's been

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Speaker 3: baptized in New Zealand. It has to be a part

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Speaker 3: of that group of cardinals.

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Speaker 4: Yes, that is a restriction, mind you. Ironically the cardinals

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Speaker 4: don't have to be ordained. They actually technically could include

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Speaker 4: a lay person, maybe even a woman, though there's absolutely

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Speaker 4: no signs of that happening.

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Speaker 3: Well is it true? Though, just just to jump ahead

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Speaker 3: that there is the Pope Jones story true that a

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Speaker 3: woman snuck in there eighty eight five five, and now

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Speaker 3: they check to make sure it's a man.

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Speaker 4: Great thought, but all despite the conclude movie, et cetera. No,

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Speaker 4: I think that's the bit.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So what is the basic process of selecting the

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Speaker 3: new pope from these cardinals?

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Speaker 4: So this is a really historical thing. It's evolved in

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Speaker 4: the process because there were times it didn't always select

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Speaker 4: the popes this way, and in fact it's only been

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Speaker 4: in the nineteenth century that it got tightened down to

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Speaker 4: this kind of secret process. And apparently in twenty thirteen

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Speaker 4: somebody did manage to disguise themselves as a cardinal and

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Speaker 4: sneak into the election, but it got kicked out by

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Speaker 4: the Swiss guards. It's not quite out of it down. Effectively,

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Speaker 4: the cardinals are locked up in the Systeine Chapel and

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Speaker 4: they have a small piece of paper on which they

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Speaker 4: can write the name of one of their number that

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Speaker 4: they think should be pope, and then there will be

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Speaker 4: discussion and they pause the meals. Meanwhile there's a total

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Speaker 4: blackout because they do not want cardinals talking on their

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Speaker 4: cell phones to the media or to you or me.

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Speaker 4: And they keep doing that four times a day until

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Speaker 4: they have a pope.

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Speaker 3: Wow, And I guess this is a pretty broad question,

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Speaker 3: but what are they looking.

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Speaker 4: For so effectively, they're looking at someone who can manage

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Speaker 4: the global church and who can run the Vatican efficiently.

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Speaker 4: I mean it is technically the pope is a monarch

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Speaker 4: as kind of king of the church, and it was

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Speaker 4: designed in the days when they had monarchs, and hence

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Speaker 4: all the grandeur of the ceremony involved in it. But

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Speaker 4: if you can't effectively keep the wheels of the Vatican turning,

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Speaker 4: keep raising money to pay for the central apparatus of

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Speaker 4: the church, then the whole thing will collapse. And that's

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Speaker 4: effectively why Benedict resigned in twenty twelve, because he just

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Speaker 4: proved incapable, maybe incompetent, at running the Vatican Bank, and

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Speaker 4: then all the sexual abuse scandals, he just couldn't handle

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Speaker 4: it anymore. So you've got to be able to do that.

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Speaker 3: So that was the first time in say one hundred

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Speaker 3: years that a pope had stepped down, am I right?

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Speaker 4: Yes, that's right, there's been a few presidents. Francis also

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Speaker 4: is the first pope for six hundred years to choose

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Speaker 4: a new name, because normally they're drawn from a small

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Speaker 4: cluster of names of previous popes, right, And this will

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Speaker 4: be so interesting to watch what, but whatever the new

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Speaker 4: pope chooses, because that's the major clue we'll get of

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Speaker 4: what his focus is.

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Speaker 2: So, Pope Francis, has he appointed many of the cardinals

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Speaker 2: that will select his successor. And by looking at at

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Speaker 2: some of these cardinals, it is a very diverse group,

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Speaker 2: isn't it. There are some countries there that have cardinals

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Speaker 2: for the first time sale su Dan Papa, New Guinea.

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Speaker 4: And Tonga and Tong. I don't forget tong.

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Speaker 3: Right, a tongue pope would be good.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, this is a really interesting question because yes,

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Speaker 4: he selected almost well well, O behalf. I think two

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Speaker 4: thirds of the cardinals are new. They don't know each

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Speaker 4: other particularly well. And so looking at the people he selected,

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Speaker 4: because two things might have been born in mind, he

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Speaker 4: presumably wanted the things that he cared about to be

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Speaker 4: reflected in the cardinals, but he also had a big

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Speaker 4: thing about representation of the worldwide church. After all, he

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Speaker 4: was from South America. So the only thing to bear

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Speaker 4: in mind is you can't assume that they all think

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Speaker 4: like Francis, because we already know that the cardinals from

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Speaker 4: Africa were really unhappy when he proposed a process of

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Speaker 4: informal blessings of same sex marriage of same sex relationships.

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Speaker 4: They said, we're not going to do this in Africa.

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Speaker 4: And these were the cardinals he had selected.

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Speaker 3: How important is the pope in twenty twenty five, Where

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Speaker 3: does it sitt in terms of world leaders as a position.

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Speaker 4: Well, the pope of the last fifty years had turned

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Speaker 4: into global figures, and that's a really striking aspect of

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Speaker 4: the ways in which the papacy works. They really are

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Speaker 4: spectacularly public in traveling all around the world, and because

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Speaker 4: of that, I think we can assume these are really

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Speaker 4: important figures, although they've got no formal power. Remember one

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Speaker 4: point four billion Catholics, that's a huge proportion the largest

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Speaker 4: religious group in the world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's incredible, But I mean, in different times they

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Speaker 3: have had different influence. I'm just actually listening to a

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Speaker 3: historical broadcast at the moment on ten sixty Sex, and

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Speaker 3: a lot of it's about Pope Alexander I and sanctioning

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Speaker 3: William the Conqueror's invasion of England. I oven think he

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Speaker 3: provided a papal banner for William the Conqueror to attack Unders.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, so the pope in the days when Church

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Speaker 4: and Stay were handed in glove. Yes, indeed he authorized

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Speaker 4: the Norman conquest of England and made it very difficult

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Speaker 4: for Harold and that sort of thing you are unlikely

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Speaker 4: to see up today happily. But I don't think you

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Speaker 4: can completely discount the potential influence. For example, the popes

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Speaker 4: made some previous Pope made some very strong remarks about

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Speaker 4: Palestine Israel situation, and that's made American Catholics feel very uncomfortable.

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Speaker 4: And I was most intrigued that apparently one of the

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Speaker 4: right wing capitalist groups in the States has been taking

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Speaker 4: potential influential cardinals out for lunch in Rome over the

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Speaker 4: last week and a half to make sure that they

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Speaker 4: get somebody who's not to not too socialism, so.

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Speaker 3: Someone a bit more Benedict like going forward. Well, incredibly interesting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so gut Field, Peter. I know it's very hard

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Speaker 2: to the tumor because it is a secret conclave, but

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Speaker 2: I believe I Understandtand it took two days to select

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Speaker 2: Pope Francis last time. What's your gut field this time?

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Speaker 2: Do you think it will be fast or maybe sometime?

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Speaker 4: I think it will all be done by Friday Friday night,

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Speaker 4: I think, I think. I mean, it may take one

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Speaker 4: more vote than it took with Francis, but people pretty

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Speaker 4: quickly get realistic. They hear the results of the votes, right.

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Speaker 3: So it's not a sacret ballot ballot, it's you hear.

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Speaker 4: Well, you don't know who all right.

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Speaker 3: Right, but you see which way it's going.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you see which way it's going. And so

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Speaker 4: quite clearly, conversation will have gone on overnight, and they'll

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Speaker 4: come back when they start again tonight, and they'll they'll

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Speaker 4: be an elimination of various the marginal candidates and they'll

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Speaker 4: throw their votes behind other people, and so there'll be

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Speaker 4: a lot of conversations gone overnight. I'd be surprised if

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Speaker 4: it goes beyond five ballots.

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Speaker 3: And do you is it a kind of thing where

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Speaker 3: you know front runners, you have names obviously when they

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Speaker 3: become the pope, they get a new name, but names

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Speaker 3: that are at the top of the top of contention.

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Speaker 4: There's a lot of names being thrown around as being

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Speaker 4: top names. But as most key watchers say, this is

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Speaker 4: probably one of the most open elections that there have

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Speaker 4: been for ages because of all these new cardinals. And

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Speaker 4: there clearly will be people from the South who want

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Speaker 4: another person out of the kind of Italian European domination

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Speaker 4: of the past thousand years. But as a Hope can't

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Speaker 4: speak Italian, they'll be at a serious disadvantage, and so

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Speaker 4: that might put the pressure. And I'm sure the Italians

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Speaker 4: are angling to get another at least another European back.

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Speaker 4: So I find it very very difficult to read, let

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Speaker 4: alone the conservative versus liberal debate that's going on. I'm

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Speaker 4: sure very yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'd like to see a Pope Pious. I'd like that

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Speaker 3: name to come back and to use.

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Speaker 4: It's got a nice rink. Oh well, yes, but you

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Speaker 4: certainly want is politics the ninth his no not run

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Speaker 4: thing of the twelfth relationships with the with an NZI Germany.

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Speaker 3: I was I was Pious, the ninth, the longest pope

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Speaker 3: running Pope but yeah, okay, so not another pious Peter.

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Speaker 2: It's been lovely chatting with you. Thank you very much

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Speaker 2: for your expertise and and time, and hopefully we'll catch

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Speaker 2: up maybe next week if there is an election of

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Speaker 2: our new pope.

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Speaker 4: Indeed, yes, very good, thank you.

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Speaker 2: That is Professor Peter Lynham. He is a religious expert

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Speaker 2: and scholar of religious history.

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