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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack team podcast

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Speaker 1: from News Talks, that'd.

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Speaker 2: Be you've heard of doom scowling, but have you heard

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Speaker 2: of dream scrolling. It's a new phenomenon and apparently lots

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Speaker 2: of us are doing it, even if we don't know

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Speaker 2: about dream scholing or haven't heard that term before. Google.

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Speaker 2: Sutherland is a clinical psychologist with Umbrella well Being and

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Speaker 2: is with us now, Kilder Google Sure to.

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Speaker 3: Jack, Yes, I've been dreams scrolling away this week without

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Speaker 3: even realizing I've.

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Speaker 1: Been doing it.

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Speaker 2: I'm a dream scholar. I'm a dream scholar. I had

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Speaker 2: never heard of this term until you drew my attention

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Speaker 2: to it. But I'm a dream scholer. So why don't

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Speaker 2: you tell us what it is?

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Speaker 3: Oh? I know, I hadn't either, But I picked up

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Speaker 3: this piece of research from trade me and they were

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Speaker 3: talking about it about and it's that phenomenon of where

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Speaker 3: you scroll through, and particularly they were talking about it

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Speaker 3: in terms of looking at houses that are way out

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Speaker 3: of your budget, like the multi billion dollar houses in

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Speaker 3: Queenstown or somewhere like that, and that you know, and

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Speaker 3: it's like, oh, yeah, I do that. I do that too,

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Speaker 3: and it's really fascinating about some of the stats they

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Speaker 3: pulled out of it. But yeah, it's that looking at

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Speaker 3: things that we dream of buying, I guess, and scrolling

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Speaker 3: through that, particularly around but not limited to property.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's not even a social media thing when

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Speaker 2: you think about it, right, So like property, think about

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Speaker 2: you know, we've just had New Zealand's best homes with

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Speaker 2: Phil Spencer, you know, none of which I could come

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Speaker 2: remotely close to being able to afford, even if I,

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Speaker 2: you know, work hard for the next three hundred years.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: But obviously I think all of us like to suspend.

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Speaker 2: It's not necessarily about owning it. It's about Yeah, there's

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Speaker 2: something nice about kind of just suspending reality of owning.

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Speaker 3: It, right, I look, I think the bits of both

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Speaker 3: there is definitely I think we get that hit of

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Speaker 3: you know, imagine if I live there and just for

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Speaker 3: a moment you go off into your little dream world

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Speaker 3: and you are living, you know, living in that place.

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Speaker 3: But interestingly, some of the stats I saw, they were

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Speaker 3: about you know, some people actually use it to kind

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Speaker 3: of set a goal for for finances, you know, they

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Speaker 3: actually think I want to own it. Maybe not that

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Speaker 3: particular one. But but something like that, or a step

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Speaker 3: down from that would be I think about a third

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Speaker 3: of people said they did it to find inspiration. You know,

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Speaker 3: they go, oh, well, I could never own that, but

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Speaker 3: yeah I really like that that idea or that that

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Speaker 3: particular aesthetic or whatever it is. And it's like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I've definitely done that. We you know, we did up

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Speaker 3: our kitchen a few years ago, and you know there's

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Speaker 3: lots of dream scrolling going on there. But it's like,

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Speaker 3: oh yeah, I could could definitely do it.

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Speaker 2: Give you that. Yeah, it does it because and there

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Speaker 2: must be like there must be I don't know, physiologically,

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Speaker 2: it must give you. It gives you a little head

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Speaker 2: of something, right, whether it's dopamine or whatever else, that

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Speaker 2: you do get some sort of pleaser or satisfaction from

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Speaker 2: a day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, one assumes that it's a little dopamine

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Speaker 3: that's that sort of feel good factor in the brain,

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Speaker 3: which is truck. Dopin is always tricky, right, because it

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Speaker 3: rewards you even when the things that you're doing aren't particular.

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Speaker 3: You know, somebody once said to me, doth means a

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Speaker 3: morally a morally ambiguous substance. It doesn't really care what

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Speaker 3: you're doing, whether it's good or bad. It just gives

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Speaker 3: you a hatty anyway. Yeah, and it's interesting for this

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Speaker 3: dream scoll and the trade me stuff. I think showed

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Speaker 3: that that about twenty percent of people did it at work, right,

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Speaker 3: and you know, and that they or some people did

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Speaker 3: it on the toilets even, but that's probably not quite

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Speaker 3: so relevant. But yeah, you know, and I definitely have

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Speaker 3: seen I've done it myself at work. You know, you're

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Speaker 3: wanting a sort of a brain break for a few

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Speaker 3: minutes and you just jump on your phone and scroll

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Speaker 3: through what the latest listings are.

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Speaker 2: Do you think there's any difference to like, is there

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Speaker 2: any downside to it apart from not being very productive

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Speaker 2: at work or very productive toilet?

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Speaker 3: The productivity, Yeah, the productivity thing's interesting because yeah, obviously

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Speaker 3: in that moment you're not being productive. Yeah, but actually,

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Speaker 3: if you think about it as taking a little five

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Speaker 3: minute brain break from if you've been doing an intense

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Speaker 3: musiccentration for an hour or so, which is actually quite

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Speaker 3: a long time. There was some research in Japan that

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Speaker 3: they did a few years ago on that they had

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Speaker 3: that concept of kawaii, which means cute and if you

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Speaker 3: look at and this was sort of an early version

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Speaker 3: of dream scrolling. I guess if you looked at scrolled

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Speaker 3: through pictures of you know, happy animals and fluffy goats

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Speaker 3: and all that kind of thing, it gave you that

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Speaker 3: same sort of hat. But interestingly, afterwards, after you'd looked

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Speaker 3: at that, your concentration and productivity at work increased for

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Speaker 3: the next hour. So it actually can have I mean,

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Speaker 3: if you were doing an hour upon hour, it would

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Speaker 3: obviously be downside of work, but I think actually it

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Speaker 3: can have a positive spin off if you do it

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Speaker 3: at work, but it may not please the boss very

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Speaker 3: much if they catch you doing it.

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Speaker 2: No, no, see, I was reflecting on my own dream scrolling,

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Speaker 2: and I have I think in a way just kind

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Speaker 2: of subconsciously made it, well, maybe not even subconsciously, maybe

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Speaker 2: consciously made it part of my routine. So in the evening,

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Speaker 2: like my wife and I will often watch a little

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Speaker 2: bit of TV or something together, and then she will

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Speaker 2: want to watch a show that she's interested in it,

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Speaker 2: and I'll start to kind of wind down before bed.

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Speaker 2: And I often find that when I jump into bed,

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Speaker 2: I read a lot, but I read on my iPad,

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Speaker 2: and so I turn off the blue light on my iPad.

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Speaker 2: But I've sort of got to this intermediate thing where

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Speaker 2: when I get into bed, I like to sit there

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Speaker 2: for fifteen minutes or so and dream scroll. So I go,

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Speaker 2: and I mean trade me very cheeky. They've got this

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Speaker 2: new if you go into the trade meet property app,

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Speaker 2: they have this new area where they have pool side

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Speaker 2: the properties we love, and so it's got a category

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Speaker 2: pool side Paradise, beach front beauties, luxury homes. Yeah, they

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Speaker 2: views to love. And so of course you're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: I'll just I'll have a look at this eight million

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Speaker 2: dollar house that I couldn't dream of having. And but

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Speaker 2: for some reason, I find it just personally, I find

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Speaker 2: it as like a really it's kind of totally mindless,

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Speaker 2: and it helps me kind of disconnect from the stresses

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Speaker 2: of the day by just my brain is almost less

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Speaker 2: active than it is when I sleep, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Look, I mean I think that trade

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Speaker 3: me data shows that about forty percent of people did

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Speaker 3: it did it to unwind when they're in bed. And look,

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Speaker 3: I think I think there's some real benefit in that.

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Speaker 3: I'm always you know, somebody once said to me the

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Speaker 3: mood that you go to sleep in is the mood

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Speaker 3: that you sleep in. So if you go to beds,

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Speaker 3: you know, if you go to bed irritable and angry,

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Speaker 3: then you often have an irritable, angry kind of sleep. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: so it makes really good sense. I think if you're

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Speaker 3: using it to relax and to feel good when you

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Speaker 3: when you get into bed and go to sleep, you're

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Speaker 3: probably increasing the chances of actually having a reasonably better

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Speaker 3: night sleep than you might otherwise. So I think it's

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Speaker 3: probably you know, it's probably one of those really useful

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Speaker 3: sort of self care techniques which is probably quite good.

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Speaker 2: And probably honestly much better than social media, Like if

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Speaker 2: you do that as opposed to just going on and

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Speaker 2: getting angry you know, yeah, commenting on things or Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I suppose some social media has a kind of a

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Speaker 2: dres scroll element to it, doesn't it, depending on what

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Speaker 2: you follow, on what platform you're using.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it can do, I mean, and it's interesting too,

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Speaker 3: you know, going back to that point about dophamine, you'll

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Speaker 3: get that dopamine hit from the fact that people have

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Speaker 3: liked your angry comment, which nicely illustrates that sort of

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Speaker 3: moral ambiguity of dophamine. But you know, yeah, I would say,

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Speaker 3: if you want a good night's sleep, way better to

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Speaker 3: be dream scrolling on your phone than sort of scrolling

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Speaker 3: through sort of nasty, you know, comments on whatever your

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Speaker 3: social platform is. Yeah, because it would be you know,

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Speaker 3: it's it's going to give you and put you in

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Speaker 3: a much mereter place to go to sleep.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, fantastic. I totally agree with that. But it's

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Speaker 2: always good though, if you can get off the internet ultimately,

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Speaker 2: I usually do that intermediate step TV. Yeah, a bit

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Speaker 2: of dream scrolling and then a bit of reading and

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Speaker 2: then good night and.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah, yeah, no, it's perfect.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, very good. Hey, thanks so much. Doogal appreciate it's

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Speaker 2: always Google suddling. Clinical psychologists from Umbrella Well Being with

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Speaker 2: us there.

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Speaker 1: For more from Saturday Morning with Jack Tame. Listen live

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Speaker 1: to News Talks ed B from nine am Saturday, or

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