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Speaker 1: Cray and Bridge. Looks like you're not doing your boss

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Speaker 1: any favor by going to work while you're unwell. Umbrella

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Speaker 1: Well Being reckons businesses are losing billions of dollars a

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Speaker 1: year due to workers pushing through while they're physically or

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Speaker 1: mentally unwell. Umbrella principal psychologist doctor Dourgle Sutherland is with

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Speaker 1: me Hi Dogle. How are you good evening, Ryan?

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Speaker 2: I'm well, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you on the show. So you're calling

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Speaker 1: this presenteeism as opposed to absenteeism, what is it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, absenteeism is where people are absent from the

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Speaker 3: workplace because they're sick, easy to count noticeable. Presenteeism is

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Speaker 3: when people are physically present in the workplace but they

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Speaker 3: are not performing at their full level of productivity. And

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Speaker 3: we would say that that's at least a third or

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Speaker 3: more decline in productivity.

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Speaker 2: So you're sitting at your.

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Speaker 3: Guesk, but you're really mentally kind of not fully there,

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Speaker 3: so you're not able to work to your full capacity.

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Speaker 3: And we think it's a very hidden cost for employers

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Speaker 3: because it's.

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Speaker 2: Very hard to count.

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Speaker 3: But as you say that, you know, an estimate is

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Speaker 3: that it's costing over forty billion dollars in lost productivity

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Speaker 3: every year to New Zealand.

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Speaker 1: Where's that estimate come from.

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Speaker 3: Look, it's based on some averages, So people saying, look,

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Speaker 3: thirty if we go on the idea that thirty three

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Speaker 3: percent less productivity, and that average is out at about two

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars per worker in lost.

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Speaker 2: Productivity per month.

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Speaker 3: So this is people saying that I lose about six

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Speaker 3: days per month. And then if you average that out

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Speaker 3: across the entire population.

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Speaker 2: So look, it's a big estimate.

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Speaker 3: And we're wanting to spark a conversation about this because

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Speaker 3: there's not a lot of good research around us. So

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Speaker 3: it's a first attempt at trying to get some numbers

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Speaker 3: on this particular phenomena. We know this phenomena occurs, there's

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Speaker 3: lots of research internationally that shows it, and so we're

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Speaker 3: trying to somehow put some figures on this.

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Speaker 1: Okay, fair enough, let's put the physical ailments to a

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Speaker 1: side for a second. Just focus on the psychological Are

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Speaker 1: you not better off being at work? I mean, even

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Speaker 1: if you're not from and this is from the individual's perspective,

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Speaker 1: not the companies, but are you not better off being

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Speaker 1: at work if you're feeling down depressed, maybe not one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent. Are you not better off being around people

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Speaker 1: rather than our home moping?

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Speaker 3: There is certainly an argument, and we were sort of

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Speaker 3: distinguished between different types of presenteeism. So there are types

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Speaker 3: of presentism when yes, it's probably useful for you to

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Speaker 3: be at work, But I think the key thing is

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Speaker 3: acknowledging that that's actually going on.

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Speaker 2: The big cost here is when it's hidden, when the manager,

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Speaker 2: the boss, the organization doesn't know it's happening, and the

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Speaker 2: person is there pretending almost to work, and then the

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Speaker 2: organization scratching it to here, going gee, why aren't we

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Speaker 2: as productive as we usually are?

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Speaker 3: We already know that New Zealand is one of the

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Speaker 3: least productive countries in the OECD, and we scratch our heads, going.

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Speaker 2: I wonder why that is?

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Speaker 3: Because we work longer hours in many other countries in

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Speaker 3: the OE c D. And maybe this is part of

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Speaker 3: it that actually we're working longer but not doing a

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Speaker 3: heck of a lot.

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Speaker 1: But maybe what's I guess, what's the alternative for the

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Speaker 1: for the manager or the business owner, you know, having

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Speaker 1: that person not be at work, which would which would

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Speaker 1: be even less productive. Well, you know, well how many

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Speaker 1: days I mean six days you mentioned six days per month.

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Speaker 1: That's that's that's a lot of time off.

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Speaker 2: So it's about how we structure that work.

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Speaker 3: I heard somebody today say, Hey, I do this all

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Speaker 3: the time because I'm the only person in my job

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Speaker 3: or in my organization that can do my particular job,

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Speaker 3: so I have to work well. That smacks to me

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Speaker 3: of a job that that isn't well designed because there's

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Speaker 3: no redundancy. There's no backup in that job. So you're

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Speaker 3: relying on one single person. Now that person is there

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Speaker 3: and you think, oh, we must be doing well. Actually

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Speaker 3: they could be functioning at thirty three percent less or

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Speaker 3: even worse in their productivity. So organizations and businesses need

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Speaker 3: to look at we're kind of fooling ourselves. We think

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Speaker 3: that because somebody is physically present in the workplace, they

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Speaker 3: must be working. And I think that's why we're seeing

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Speaker 3: this as a hidden cost, because we just look at

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Speaker 3: the fact that somebody is sitting there or standing there

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Speaker 3: in their job and we think, therefore they must be producing.

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Speaker 3: And we think it's possibly cheaper if you're actually having

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Speaker 3: some built in redundancies into.

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Speaker 1: Your workplace interesting Doctor Dougal Sutherland, Umbrella Principal Psychologists really

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Speaker 1: appreciate your time. For more from Heather Duplessy Allen Drive,

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Speaker 1: listen live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays,

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