1 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: It's scared Bisy. 2 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 2: It's the eighth of the eighth and the Year of 3 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: Our Lord, twenty twenty four. Welcome all year Bespokey dokies 4 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 2: to the Daily Bespoke Podcast. Now we've got a man 5 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,519 Speaker 2: coming into the show today that's going to make you 6 00:00:37,560 --> 00:00:41,959 Speaker 2: and me Mashy feel lis manly, I believe, because we've 7 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 2: got Serviceman J coming in. He's a man that had 8 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 2: four deployments to Afghanistan. He's just written a book called 9 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: Serviceman J. His name is Jamie. Actually that's why the 10 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 2: serviceman's Jamie Pennell. So could you clean up because I 11 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 2: think Rude is pissed off and he's lift a mess 12 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:05,279 Speaker 2: over there. I think those notes, there are those notes. Yeah, okay, 13 00:01:05,360 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 2: clean up the real look. This is a real look 14 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:10,400 Speaker 2: behind the curtains. 15 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,680 Speaker 3: Mak Okay, Well here he is. 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 2: I'll bring him in a chick check one two, bitt 17 00:01:20,280 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: already already started. He's got his own bottle brilliant and 18 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: give them these bones, all right, A right jump on that, Mike, Yeah, 19 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: put those on and good to go. Okay, joining us 20 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 2: now as a Kiwi soldier who's been on four deployments 21 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: to Afghanistan, who was part of the unit which responded 22 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 2: to the Teleybands, Intercontinental Hotel Siege and Cabul. In twenty eleven, 23 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: he's been awarded the New Zealand Gallantry Staff for bravery 24 00:01:51,160 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 2: and he's telling his story and his new book Serviceman Jay, 25 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: The Untold Story of an insied s a S Soldier. 26 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 2: Please welcome to the Mat and Jerry Show, the Daily 27 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: Bespit Podcast. Jamie Pennell coming in. 28 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 4: No worries man, my pleasure. 29 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: So when you. 30 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 2: Joined the army, this is a question that I always 31 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 2: think about. Did you have combat in mind or was 32 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: that just a thing down down the track. I mean, 33 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 2: because there's a lot of reasons to join the army 34 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 2: that aren't combat, you know, personal growth and education and 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 2: those kind of things. 36 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 3: Yeah. 37 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 4: Interestingly, at the end of my career, I looked through 38 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 4: my twenty year file and it was you know, about 39 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 4: that burg and weighed about twenty kg's and I thought, oh, 40 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 4: I'll just go all the way back to my initial application. 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 4: And the last question they had on the initial application 42 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 4: was what are your aspirations in the army? And I 43 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 4: put to join the essays, Oh, there was a seventeen 44 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 4: and a half, there was seventeen and a half and 45 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,000 Speaker 4: you know, you know, I can't remember that far back 46 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,720 Speaker 4: about why I put that down, but I think I 47 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 4: knew were living in west Aukland, and we knew they 48 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 4: were out of a hobsinvil when it was especially you know, 49 00:02:52,200 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 4: that was about that. But I'd always had that aspiration 50 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 4: and that drove me on. So I you know, I 51 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 4: put my application and to join the army at seventeen 52 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 4: and a half and you know, took a couple of 53 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 4: years and pretty much dropped quickly into basic training. And yeah, 54 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 4: that's all she wrote. I mean, yeah, I don't think 55 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 4: you think about combat. You know, you're just joining the 56 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 4: army to serve New Zealand, and it will be revealed 57 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,119 Speaker 4: to you. You're only a young man, you don't, you know. 58 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I know. 59 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,040 Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing we have where because my son's 60 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: seventeen and he's just deciding what he's going to do 61 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,200 Speaker 2: with his life. It's interesting that we make those decisions 62 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 2: at seventeen. I mean, you you're still you're a child. 63 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 3: You're a baby. 64 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 4: Yeah, you're a baby. 65 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and so so you initially, so you go 66 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:34,839 Speaker 2: through the basic training, right, and then you move into 67 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 2: other training for the essays. 68 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 3: Yep. 69 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 4: So you do your basic training. So I finished my 70 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 4: basic training sort of you know, halfway, oh sorry, end 71 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 4: of ninety ninety four, and then I did my infantry 72 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 4: core training, which is specific for infantrymen. So the basic 73 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 4: basic you know, skill sets to be able to operate 74 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 4: at the basic level. And then yeah, and then you know, 75 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 4: once you've done that, once you've done your core training, 76 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 4: it's green light. You know, you can put your application 77 00:03:58,560 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 4: in and crack on if you think he can get 78 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 4: it done. You know, I put my I did my 79 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 4: first selection by nineteen ninety six, so the summer selection 80 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 4: at the end of the year. But I you know, 81 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 4: I didn't really prepare myself that well. And that was 82 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:16,840 Speaker 4: because you know, you may or may not have read 83 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 4: it in the book. But we decided to get on 84 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 4: the bears. They're that one night and you don't drink 85 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 4: in the barracks. But we decided to go back to 86 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 4: the barracks. A bunch of us had the radio up 87 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 4: too loud, and and the orderly sergeant and orday corporal 88 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 4: came down and banged on the door, and so you know, 89 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 4: we turned the radio turned the radio off, stayed silent, 90 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 4: you know, thinking it's going. 91 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:37,559 Speaker 3: To go away. 92 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 4: You know, babies, you know what I mean, babies. You know, 93 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 4: you think he's going to go away because he's not 94 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 4: going to go in. And so I whispered for the boys, 95 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 4: and I said, let's go out the window at the back. 96 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 4: You know, we'll we're on a second story. We'll just 97 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,480 Speaker 4: go down the drain pipe. And so I opened the 98 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 4: window and the orderly corporal was there and he's pointing 99 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 4: up at us, saying, yeah, you know, get out of there, 100 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 4: you know, open the door. So we opened the door. 101 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 4: Put us all on charge. Anyway, long story short, you know, 102 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 4: got charged twenty eight day CB. That means they've got 103 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 4: us under the pump for under control from about five 104 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 4: o'clock in the morning till eleven o'clock at night, you know, 105 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 4: and you're doing a whole lot of you know, random tassie, 106 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 4: you don't really want to do as a young soldier, 107 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 4: but you've got to get cracked. And that was about 108 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 4: you know, it was twenty eight days and I had 109 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 4: a couple of weeks to train for selection. Went on 110 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 4: that first one made it halfway through, which I you know, 111 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: I guess is a pretty good effort looking back now, 112 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 4: given I you know, didn't get much training time, and 113 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 4: then you know, came back with a bit of shame 114 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 4: because I was like, you know, man, it is a 115 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 4: bit of a bit of shame, you know, coming back 116 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 4: having put you put your application and gone out there 117 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 4: and done it. Young fellow. You know, everyone's kind of like, 118 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 4: you know, you're too young and that kind of thing. 119 00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 3: So that was a lever. 120 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 4: Jail's a platform to go back the next year. And 121 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 4: literally I was willing to die for that to get in. 122 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 4: So I always had the mindset to go into the 123 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 4: regiment and that kind of thing. And and yeah, and 124 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 4: that's all she wrote. 125 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you must have you must have made some 126 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 2: hardcore brothers at that point, right. 127 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred percent. The Yeah, you're just you know 128 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 4: the probably the close this crew are the guys that 129 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 4: go you go through selection with and then you're cyclo training. 130 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 4: You're a real type type group because you yeah, you're 131 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 4: under the microscope and that's quite a significant growth period 132 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,600 Speaker 4: for everyone involved. You see everyone, Watson all you see 133 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 4: you see people for who they really are, you know 134 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 4: what I mean. And you know, you socialize and that 135 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 4: kind of thing, and you know, you come to bloze 136 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 4: every now and again. But that's what brothers do, you 137 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,480 Speaker 4: know what I mean. So that's the way it is. 138 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 4: And then and then you know, further on from that, 139 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 4: once you start getting introduced to the wider personalities within 140 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 4: the squadrons, then you know, you go out in operations 141 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 4: with those guys and you start, you know, everything just 142 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 4: starts tightening up, you know, across across the regiment and 143 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 4: you have a you know, you look at each other 144 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 4: in the eyes, and you know, you know what you're 145 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 4: what you've been and done, and and yeah, it's hard, 146 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 4: you know, and if we you know, I guess fast 147 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 4: tracking it forward with the transition out, you know, it's 148 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 4: it's quite quite a difficult environment to extract yourself from, 149 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,040 Speaker 4: you know, because it's such a hard journey. 150 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: So were there were were there guys that you started 151 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 2: with and went sort of right through with? 152 00:06:59,000 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 3: Yep? 153 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, per yeah, I mean not everyone, not everyone makes 154 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 4: the grade, you know, like you you'd probably get I 155 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 4: don't know what the metrics are, maybe you know, two 156 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 4: to three percent of whatever the selection numbers are. And 157 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 4: then that then and then you know, you have a 158 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,200 Speaker 4: couple of selections a year, you combine those two numbers 159 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 4: together and then that gets trimmed down even further. I 160 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 4: mean our particular course that I did, OL's got trim 161 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 4: right in half and then it just kept getting trimmed down. 162 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 4: So it's you know, it's the top of the top 163 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 4: of the top, you know, it just gets right down 164 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,559 Speaker 4: to the cream. And you know, and so it should 165 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,080 Speaker 4: be because you know, what you're expected to do is 166 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 4: is you know, highly complex, requires people that know what 167 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 4: they're doing, highly skilled and. 168 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and so because the Essay is New Zealand Essays 169 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,239 Speaker 2: is famous for being one of the most well trained 170 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: operations in the world. So how's that specific Essays training 171 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: and why is New Zealand's Essays training so so special 172 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: and revered? 173 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 3: Well, it has to be. 174 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 4: I mean we're one of five there's probably a couple 175 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 4: of others that are in the mix now of only 176 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 4: you know, five, six or seven Tier one special forces 177 00:08:03,400 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 4: in the world. So we've got New Zealand Essays, Australian Essays, 178 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 4: the British Essays, Seal Team six, you know, Delta, Canadian 179 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 4: JTF Tour and Netmix as well and I'm pretty sure 180 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 4: that the Norwegians f SK and MSK are and that 181 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 4: mix too, you and we've operated with them overseas. But yeah, 182 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 4: I mean we're designed to operate nationally, regionally and globally 183 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 4: and we have to be able to deliver a broad 184 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 4: spectrum capability. So that's what makes us special. And you know, 185 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 4: we are modeled on, as is everyone else, the British 186 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 4: Essays model, which was you know, created in nineteen forty 187 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 4: two by David Stirling. And you know, we've got a 188 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 4: long history and yeah, I mean, you know, we don't 189 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 4: have big numbers like the Americans, but it's in direct comparison, 190 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 4: you know, to not comparison, but in direct relation to 191 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 4: the to the population. Yeah, we've got eight million here. 192 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 4: You know, I'm not going to talk about numbers. The 193 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 4: American three hundred and eighty million. You know, they've got 194 00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 4: a pulled to drink from. So and what does that mean. 195 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,199 Speaker 4: It means that, you know, numbers are enough we can 196 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 4: do what we need to do. But you know in America, 197 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:10,680 Speaker 4: you know, if you go over to Seal Team six 198 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 4: in Delta, they've got you know, a couple of C 199 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 4: seventeens lined up on the runway ready to rock and 200 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 4: roll globally, we don't. 201 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, what's it like when you run into those 202 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 2: other guys because you're on the same side obviously, So 203 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 2: is there a camaraderie between the units from other countries 204 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 2: when you run into the British and the Canadians. 205 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 4: One hundred percent. Culture is exactly the same, man for 206 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 4: man for man, exactly the same. The only difference is 207 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,240 Speaker 4: the assets and that kind of thing. But you know, 208 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 4: we are equipped well. Over the years that got better 209 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 4: and better. I came through early on kind of in 210 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 4: the late nineties, and we went you know, I think 211 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 4: at that point we you know, there's a long period 212 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 4: of time between Vietnam and Afghanistan and are kicking off, 213 00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,679 Speaker 4: so no one well people had forgotten, you know, what 214 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:59,600 Speaker 4: we're all about. And you know, we didn't didn't get 215 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,680 Speaker 4: that much money and we didn't have that much equipment. 216 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 4: But it wasn't until we got into Afghanistan again that 217 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 4: we started to operate. And then we had the Americans 218 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 4: come and look at us and other other units just 219 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 4: to see what we're all about. That we started to 220 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 4: solidify the relationship and and you know, demonstrate to the 221 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 4: to the government at the time. I think it was 222 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 4: the labor government that you know, we could you know, 223 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 4: punch pretty hard for our small numbers. 224 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,040 Speaker 2: Well, the kit is obviously life and death in it, 225 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 2: and it's important, but also the kit must be pretty cool. 226 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 2: You know when you get when you get your stuff, 227 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,439 Speaker 2: you must go this is cool stuff. 228 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:32,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. 229 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's there's a saying equipped the man, don't 230 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 4: man the equipment. So yeah yeah, so yeah, when you 231 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 4: get good stuff, the boys are like, yeah, yeah, we 232 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 4: are so that we got it right. 233 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Hey, Jamie, who who's the book for? Mate? 234 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 5: Is that a curiosity because we've read a little bit 235 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 5: of it. We got it in an PDA form, but 236 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 5: it seems to be very much like you don't have 237 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:56,760 Speaker 5: to be a formally see member to read this book. 238 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,000 Speaker 5: What are you getting it here? 239 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 4: No? I mean, initially my target all answers the veterans, 240 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 4: because that was the space that I was and then 241 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 4: thinking about it. But you know, once I started writing 242 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 4: about it, and you know, the story is one part 243 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 4: of it, then we've got lines of the toll it 244 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 4: takes and you know, engagement with others and there's a 245 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 4: whole lot of stuff in there, you know what I mean. 246 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 4: But having worked with you know, I've had the I guess, 247 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 4: the honor and privilege of working with high performance athletes 248 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 4: and teams and corporates and that kind of thing. You know. 249 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 4: While I was writing, I was thinking, actually, you know, 250 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 4: anyone can read this book and take something out of it. 251 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 4: You know, the story is my story, but it's just 252 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 4: a story of being in an environment, you know, a 253 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 4: high performance environment, maybe you know, a stressful environment. It's 254 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 4: just how you how you reading it for yourself. But 255 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,679 Speaker 4: I think, you know, with the resounding feedback that I'm 256 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 4: getting back from people from a lot of different sectors 257 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 4: that I've worked on, you know, and the books only 258 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 4: been out for a week, is that it's hitting the mark, 259 00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 4: you know, in terms of depth, so that that there 260 00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 4: is a massive tick for me. That's exactly what I 261 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 4: do signed the book to do, you know, you know, 262 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 4: wrote the book for it's to have an impact, you know, 263 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 4: not just any old military story. It has to have 264 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 4: some depth, you know, and so I'm really really stoked 265 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 4: about that. 266 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 2: Take it back to your story for it for a 267 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 2: little bit. So, was Afghanistan your first combat deployment? 268 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 3: Yep, Yeah, yeah. 269 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, I went to team all but 270 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 4: I was peace keeping pretty good night. I mean, stuff 271 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 4: is going on, but in general, yeah was it? 272 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 2: And how different was it on the ground than what 273 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,719 Speaker 2: you know, envisioned heading over there. 274 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 4: I think I had the right vision in my head. 275 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 4: I new, you know, we get read into it pretty 276 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 4: well in detail, and you know, I'm watching the news 277 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 4: and I know what's happening. And in the early days, 278 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 4: you know, we were out there in the wild West essentially, 279 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 4: so we knew it was going on. And once who 280 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:55,800 Speaker 4: got into country and got the handover from the guys 281 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 4: who had already been there, there was no ambiguity and 282 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 4: I was ready to go. And you know, it's like 283 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 4: you have you been training for a long period of time, 284 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 4: you know, I always say, yeah, you know, if you're 285 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,199 Speaker 4: training rugby, you know Tuesdays and Thursdays, you want to 286 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 4: play on Saturday, you know what I mean. And so 287 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,120 Speaker 4: when you play on Saturday, you can let the brakes off, 288 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,959 Speaker 4: you know. And so when guys go over you know, 289 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 4: I mean we're tracing training thousands and thousands and thousands 290 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 4: of ours, you know, we can week out, day and night, 291 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 4: and all that kind of stuff to be able to 292 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 4: be effective on the batlefield. So you know, as a 293 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 4: young fellow, you know, hasn't been in operations, of course, 294 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 4: you want to see how you go. You want to 295 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 4: see whether or not the training marys up, you know 296 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 4: and holds up against a you know, a well armed, 297 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 4: determined enemy, you know, and that's what they were. So 298 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 4: you know, we had a good team that we're going 299 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 4: to play against that and they were going to test us. 300 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 4: And yeah, it wasn't until we had the first contact 301 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 4: that I that I thought to myself, yep, yeah, no, 302 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 4: it's you know, it's bang on the money. 303 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it must be real in a way 304 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: that other people don't experience reality. And you hear about 305 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 2: people that have been over in the environment that you're over, 306 00:13:57,559 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 2: and then you know, you come back. You were deployed 307 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: four times, but you come back to New Zealand and 308 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 2: you look around, you know, at society and civilian life 309 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 2: and how does that look when you've been over in 310 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 2: a situation like Afghanistan. 311 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was pretty hard. 312 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 4: I mean the transition from you know, coming coming from 313 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 4: a high threat environment to a low threatn environment is 314 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 4: quite difficult in terms of integration. And you know I've 315 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 4: said it before, is that I remember one of the trips. 316 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 4: I think I was back within a week, you know, 317 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,600 Speaker 4: and you know we've been on call, you know, days, 318 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 4: just days ago, you know what I mean. And so 319 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 4: your brain is back there, so you're registering threat. You 320 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 4: don't have your weapons, you don't have your weapons, you 321 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,080 Speaker 4: don't have your mate watching your backs. You are standing 322 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,520 Speaker 4: outside camp in the middle of the night. And I 323 00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 4: was thinking, Man, am I dreaming? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, 324 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 4: and even when I woke up in the morning, my 325 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 4: mow in bed, you know, still still not quite sure 326 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 4: if I'm here all there. Yeah, there's this there's this 327 00:14:52,160 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 4: in between space and it's and it is quite difficult 328 00:14:54,320 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 4: to integrate. So I don't know, to answer your question, 329 00:14:57,160 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 4: I guess, yeah, it is very, very difficult. And one 330 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 4: of the things I really started dialing on was that 331 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 4: I wouldn't get irritated at big stuff, you know what 332 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,359 Speaker 4: I mean, because of the experience that I had trivialities. 333 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 4: He's a really pursed me off, you know what I mean, 334 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 4: Like I can't get my paper down at the dairy 335 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 4: or you know, the monk's not there. I was thinking out. 336 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 4: I'll just be what are you talking about. I'll take 337 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 4: you over there and you'll see how people hauling bloody 338 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 4: you know, water out of rivers and you know kids, 339 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 4: you know, dragging these you know things out of the 340 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 4: river and taking them home. You know two k's down 341 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 4: the track, or they're up on the mountains with their goats, 342 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 4: you know, five six year olds. We have no idea, man, 343 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 4: is the the comparison is just it's night and day, 344 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 4: you know, and not to mention obviously, you know getting 345 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 4: shot at. 346 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. 347 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: So there's people getting offended at the odd word being 348 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 2: a bit wrong here and there when other people have 349 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 2: to go through through all that. When you're over there. 350 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 3: Is the is there the fear a part of it? 351 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: Are you comfortable when you're back at camp? 352 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 3: Do you manage how do you manage the fear part 353 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 3: of it? 354 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: I I'm just coming from a guy that you know, 355 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: I've had nightmares about being at war, and you know, 356 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: I imagine myself just lying yeah, barracks going. 357 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, if you're there, you'd probably feel the fear. We don't. 358 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 4: You probably register it in the background unconsciously. I think 359 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 4: you don't really sleep that well. So on the surface, 360 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 4: I don't really feel it. Back behind the curtain, I 361 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 4: probably do. But you know, our training prepares us very 362 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 4: well for these operations. I mean it has to you know, 363 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,680 Speaker 4: and and that, and so our training is gets as 364 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 4: as close to reality as possible. The only difference is 365 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 4: now is that you're getting bullets fired back at you, 366 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, and you need to dodge them. 367 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 4: So yeah, in terms of fear, it's kind of it's 368 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 4: it's you know, it's hard to you know, you can't 369 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 4: understand it. It's normal, you know, we just go into it. 370 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 4: Even people, you know, if they got their legs blowing 371 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 4: off and stuff, we trained that, you know. I mean 372 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 4: we've had you know, you know, we make people up 373 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 4: so the you know, their legs are bent backwards and 374 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 4: they look like they've got and ambutator legs. And when 375 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 4: I see that, it's kind of just process, you know, 376 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 4: And we train first date, you know. I mean it's 377 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 4: same with you. We get contacted process. You know, you're 378 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 4: just going through a process and you've done it so 379 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,359 Speaker 4: many times that it's just automatic. You're you know exactly 380 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 4: what you have to do. There's no ambiguity, you know, 381 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,080 Speaker 4: you know, to go left or go right, and it 382 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 4: just it just is seamless. 383 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, because the thing you hear though, is that when 384 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:28,800 Speaker 2: when a firefight, and obviously you were involved, when you're 385 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 2: involved in your first firefight, that everything train changes and 386 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: you know they say the plans go out the window, right, 387 00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,360 Speaker 2: Is that not the case the plans sometimes? 388 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 4: No, it's it's you know, yeah, you can plan for 389 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 4: everything to go well, but yeah, you just it just depends. 390 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,880 Speaker 4: You know, the ground will will dictate which way you're 391 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 4: going to move, The amount of fire you dictate, well, 392 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 4: will dictate a whole lot of things as well. It's 393 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 4: just as a commander, you know, you have to be 394 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 4: very calm and you need to make the right decisions 395 00:17:58,280 --> 00:17:59,479 Speaker 4: to get us out of there, you know what I mean. 396 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 4: Because the first thing is you've got to try and 397 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 4: win the fire fight, you know, gain the initiative, you know, 398 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 4: be dominant in that in that particular battle. And then 399 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 4: if you have to extract yourselves, you know, and I've 400 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,160 Speaker 4: seen all that happen before, so kind of yeah, kind 401 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,200 Speaker 4: of fifty to fifty with that one. Yeah, plans go out, 402 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 4: but you know, yeah, I think the main one is 403 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 4: you know, you plan, plan for a good, good outcome 404 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 4: as soon as you cross the line, just just be 405 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 4: prepared for some some difference in the plan. 406 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:28,160 Speaker 2: It was decision making, something that came to you, came 407 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 2: to you easily, that was natural for you to be 408 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 2: the person making decisions. 409 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was in the in the Intercontinental Hotel, for example, 410 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,199 Speaker 4: in the middle of that battle, I found myself in 411 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 4: a quite a deep sense of flow, which I you know, 412 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 4: I never use that terminology back then. I didn't really 413 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 4: know about it until I was in high performance sport. 414 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 4: And you know, I just finished talking to one of 415 00:18:49,359 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 4: the squadron commanders from the Crossis Response Unit. We'd just 416 00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,800 Speaker 4: been in quite a significant gun battle in the in 417 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 4: the steelwell. We had helicopter above the hotel engaging terrorist 418 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 4: and we were heading in that direction to clear the roof, 419 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 4: and and and you know, put in the final coodiograph 420 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:08,119 Speaker 4: you're like kind of you know, there was a very 421 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 4: long night. But what I found was I was just 422 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 4: standing there, just completely calm, like lying in bed, watching 423 00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 4: top gun, you know what I mean, having a beer, 424 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 4: and I was thinking wow, and it expanded, you know, 425 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:30,040 Speaker 4: my brain, My brain made a visual image of the 426 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 4: of the hotel. It's pitch black in the hotel, you know, 427 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 4: I could only see what was in front of I 428 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 4: had my ivg's on, but I was on a floor, 429 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 4: you know, but I could see everything was Yeah, the 430 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 4: visual picture I was getting was the floors below me. 431 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 4: I knew where the CiU were. I knew they were clearing. 432 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 4: I could see that. I could see our entry point. 433 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 4: I knew there's a dead body in the internet room. 434 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 4: I could see the helicopter. I could hear it. I 435 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 4: could I could see it in my brain circling. I 436 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:55,800 Speaker 4: knew where it was. I knew the terrace sort of 437 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 4: giving away their positions because they're shooting off the roof. 438 00:19:57,920 --> 00:19:59,159 Speaker 4: You know, we're getting close to the roof, so that 439 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 4: a lot of that sound was occurring. I knew which 440 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,439 Speaker 4: way we needed to go. So, you know, flows an 441 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 4: amazing thing. So I was calm, My mind was wide open, 442 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 4: as you know flow does. And yeah, it made my 443 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 4: decision making very simple. I was one step ahead. And 444 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 4: you know, that's kind of where you want to be 445 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 4: as a commander, because you're you want to get inside 446 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 4: the decision making cycle of your of the threat group. 447 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,920 Speaker 4: That you're going up against, which means that you're getting 448 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 4: one step ahead and gaining the initiative and getting after it. 449 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 3: And was your the rest of your crew and flow 450 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 3: as well. 451 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, I know I haven't asked them, but they were. 452 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 3: Listening to what you were putting down. 453 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: One of them would have been would have been a 454 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: different state of mind I mentioned hundred percent. 455 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 456 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 4: I can't speak for everyone, but you know, the boys 457 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 4: being boys, you know, if you said were scared of it, 458 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 4: and no, no. 459 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:49,879 Speaker 3: But I'll tell you what. 460 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, there's that that particular night and a couple of 461 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 4: other operations we did. You know, it's not great. It's 462 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 4: not great being in a steelwell, you know, getting fired 463 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 4: from an elevated position with grenades being rained down on 464 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 4: your head, you know what I mean. And so yeah, 465 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 4: you've got to keep you've got to keep level headed. 466 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 4: And people people kind of wouldn't be able to understand, 467 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 4: you know what what that means, and you know they'd 468 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 4: probably just be running for the for the you know, 469 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 4: for the car park. But for us, it's like we've 470 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 4: got to get this guy. You know, Yes, you're going 471 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 4: to be some damage. 472 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 3: It's literally life and death. 473 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and and and you know it it draws usin. Yeah, 474 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, they like that it's drawing 475 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 4: a scene. I mean that particular event, you know, we 476 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 4: had an number of hotel guests is one hundred and 477 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 4: fifty rooms. So you know, let's just be low, low number, 478 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 4: one hundred and fifty people. But what if there's you know, 479 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 4: two people in each room, you know, three hundred you know, 480 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 4: and so you're doing with number big numbers, and you 481 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 4: know what these guys were going to do, We're you know, 482 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 4: we were intercepting comms, is that they're going to pull 483 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 4: them out of the rooms and throw them off the 484 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 4: top of the building. You know, there was there was 485 00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 4: phase two of their plan, I guess. So we had 486 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 4: to get them in front of us as quickly as possible. 487 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 4: And that was a whole there was a whole intent 488 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 4: at that particular point in time until we until we 489 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 4: grabbed a hole of the roof and clear it of 490 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 4: these guys. So it didn't stop there, you know, I mean, 491 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 4: that was that was a long night and I know 492 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 4: a lot of people focusing on that, but yeah, ten hours, 493 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 4: you know a bit of a heartbeat, you know, it 494 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 4: felt like a minute, you know, once you walked down like, well, 495 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 4: looked at my watch man, been in there ten hours, 496 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,239 Speaker 4: you know, just and again, you know, when you're in 497 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 4: when you're being challenged significantly or your life's on the line, 498 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 4: then you know your full focus is on what needs 499 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,160 Speaker 4: to happen next, and you know, pray for a good outcome. 500 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 4: But yeah, chaos, chaos, Yeah. 501 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: And it must because I mean most people have never 502 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 2: tested like that, never experienced those heights. So once you've 503 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 2: been tested like that, you're in a situation like that, 504 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 2: and it's over and things calm down. I mean, the 505 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: feeling isn't a feeling of an elation at that point. 506 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 4: On operations, Well, I'll go back. I remember standing on 507 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:56,600 Speaker 4: the roof and one of the boys said, I think 508 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 4: that's one of the biggest things that the regiments have 509 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 4: ever been involved in. And I was thinking, you reckon, 510 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 4: and he goes, yeah, think about it. 511 00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 3: But I was too busy. I was too busy. 512 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 4: Doing my job, you know, like I was still talking 513 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 4: back to headquarters. I was giving them a brief. It 514 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 4: wasn't over, you know. We started to take rounds on 515 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 4: the roof and stuff like that. But yeah, and then 516 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 4: you know, once you get back and do the debriefs 517 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 4: and you know, have a feed and a bit of 518 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 4: a sleep and that type of thing, you're reorientating onto 519 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 4: another job. You know, it's not like we had the 520 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 4: week off. You know, the boss is like, take the 521 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 4: next couple of weeks off. Boys. You know there's a 522 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 4: big job. We had a job to get after in 523 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,640 Speaker 4: three days. You know, it was already lined up. These 524 00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 4: things just happened. You know, we're not we're prepared for them, 525 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 4: but they just happen. So you just got to drop 526 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 4: tools and get after it. So we're still had a 527 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 4: job to d side, just refocused on that job. And 528 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 4: then once we did that job, you know, something else 529 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 4: comes up, refolks, So you don't really have time. You know, 530 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 4: you're always distracted and getting onto the next thing. But 531 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 4: you know, you know, once I got back to New Zealand, 532 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 4: it still didn't really hit me. And then you know, 533 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 4: I got pulled into the CEO's office and he said, 534 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 4: here's a letter for you, and then opened it up 535 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: and it was how you've been awarded the New Zealand 536 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 4: Country stuff for your efforts. And I said, really said yes, 537 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 4: and I said why and yeah, and then obviously it 538 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 4: started to become a reality pace. 539 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:20,160 Speaker 2: You're in such a sense of flow that you had 540 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 2: an idea that you were achieving at a level that 541 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 2: deserved a metal Yeah. 542 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:28,679 Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, who knows, you know, like, I'm not 543 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 4: too sure how it would have panned out with a 544 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 4: different team. Maybe they've done better, maybe they're done worse. 545 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:36,400 Speaker 4: It just it just depends. I mean, that particular operation 546 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 4: was a really high end test of who we were 547 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 4: as individuals. And not only that, I really tested our 548 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 4: you know, the way we did our business, and all 549 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,440 Speaker 4: of that is great feedback coming back, you know, about 550 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 4: how we need to operate in the future. So we 551 00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 4: definitely as a regiment gained a lot of information out 552 00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,479 Speaker 4: of that that will bode well for the future. 553 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 2: My granddad came back from World War Two and he 554 00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:06,199 Speaker 2: had been an important man over there, and then he 555 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: moved back to in Chicago where he was working in 556 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,560 Speaker 2: a dairy and he never really came back from that. 557 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: That the transition from being important and involved in important 558 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 2: things with clear, clear objectives to. 559 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 3: Well, working in a dairy in Chicago. 560 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 2: So what is that once your career ends and you 561 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,359 Speaker 2: come home, the becoming a person and you're not with 562 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 2: your mates every you know, your brothers every night. You know, 563 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 2: you don't have clear orders coming up and that kind 564 00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 2: of stuff. 565 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 4: When you leave. Yeah, yeah, the transition is very difficult, 566 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,400 Speaker 4: and you'll always lean on what's comfortable. And so what's 567 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 4: comfortable is staying in that routine, you know, and the 568 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 4: routine is, well, the routines. There's no real routine, but 569 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 4: kind of a generic routine that you make for yourself 570 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 4: is you know, get up in the morning, train for 571 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 4: an hour and a half, make sure you're operationally fit. 572 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 4: And then I was getting on with made sure I 573 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 4: sort of had something a purpose. So I was doing 574 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 4: my master's studies. I had a year left of those. 575 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 4: I was you know, getting after renovating the house and 576 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,359 Speaker 4: that type of thing. But it was, you know, but 577 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 4: then I was. But then I was things like, oh, 578 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 4: you know, I'll keep it. I'll keep doing Brazilian jiu jitsu. 579 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 4: Combat mindset, I'll keep I know, I'll do I'll i'll 580 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,399 Speaker 4: buy a pistol in a rifle when I'll join a 581 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 4: gun club, you know what I mean. Combat mindset. And 582 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 4: then so I just pick up on that, you know, 583 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 4: I was trying to just stay in it and that 584 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 4: type of thing. And so I started to become more 585 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 4: aware after I left because I had time to do that, 586 00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:43,439 Speaker 4: and then I was able to sort of break things 587 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 4: down and attack them one at a time. So, you know, 588 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 4: by by thirty five, I reckon that. You know, your 589 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 4: character traits are pretty much well established, and then you 590 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 4: know that's who you are or who you think you are, 591 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 4: you know, and so at thirty five, you know, my 592 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 4: character were aligned with you know, surviving on the battlefield, 593 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:04,920 Speaker 4: and so I had a lot to get through. So 594 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 4: I had to just do some self realization. I had 595 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 4: become very acutely self aware and I had to Yeah, 596 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 4: and it was always in the moment too, about how 597 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 4: I was engaging with others, because you know, obviously that's 598 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 4: what happens. You know, the way you engage with others 599 00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 4: and how you do it is essential, you know, particularly 600 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 4: the people that. 601 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 3: Are close to you. 602 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 4: So I had to make the necessary adjustments. You know, 603 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 4: got a bit of help on the side there, but 604 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 4: at the end of the day, you have to do it. 605 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 4: You know, it's you. You want to get big biceps, 606 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 4: you go to the gym and do armkills. If you 607 00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:40,719 Speaker 4: want to change your character, then you have to do 608 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 4: the deep the deep thinking and make those adjustments. The 609 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 4: information is all there, it's just up to you apply it. 610 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 4: And I think a lot of people don't do that. 611 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 4: They you know, just think, yep, this is just me. 612 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 4: You know, you think something, you feel something, and then 613 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 4: you project it without a filter, you know what I mean. 614 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 4: In that's emotion and so we unless we have control 615 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 4: over it, then you're kind of sitting in the passenger 616 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 4: seat of the bus. So yeah, and basically it was 617 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 4: a mentality I sort of had. I was thinking, yep, 618 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 4: I'm sitting in the bus. I want to be the driver, 619 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 4: take full control. And that took a significant period of time. 620 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 4: But I'm at a place now where you know, even 621 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 4: now I can track, you know, how I'm thinking and 622 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 4: feeling about things anytime I'm talking to people where you 623 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 4: know I'm in a leadership is a strategic leadership position 624 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 4: at the moment, and you know, you have bold conversations 625 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,800 Speaker 4: with people and you know it might get a little 626 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 4: bit heated. But I don't let people draw me in. 627 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 4: Well I choose or I don't you know that that's 628 00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 4: my that's my prerogative, and I think that's a massive 629 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 4: game changer for anyone to do well in life and have, 630 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 4: you know, eternal peace. You know, if you allow someone 631 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 4: to hold your hand and anger and then take you 632 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 4: down the garden path and make you as angry as possible, 633 00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 4: then that's your problem, you know what I mean, not theirs. 634 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 4: So it's up to you what you decide to engage 635 00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 4: with or you don't. You know, you have the decision. 636 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 4: That's just making sure you know what the tools are, 637 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 4: you're willing to do the work day in, day out, 638 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 4: and it will get there, you know. Neural pathway rerouting 639 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:06,959 Speaker 4: if you like to call that, and printing. We all 640 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 4: neural pathways which you know link to you how you 641 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 4: think and feel about things. Takes a bit of time. 642 00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 4: I started seeing stuff happening within six weeks because I 643 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 4: made the deliberate effort to do that kind of stuff. 644 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 4: So sorry of it there. 645 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 3: Oh no, That's what I'm about. 646 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: Like I've been talking a little bit about this kind 647 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: of stuff lately, the idea that you don't necessarily know 648 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: when you're younger, that you actually have a choice about 649 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 2: how you're You know, someone can fire you up and 650 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 2: you have choice when you when you're younger, you think 651 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 2: I'm angry. I'm angry now, but you do actually have 652 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 2: a choice to go you know, you know, you have 653 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 2: the quality of your thoughts is all you've got, really, 654 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: and the choices that you can make. When did you 655 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,720 Speaker 2: realize that what you've learned and your experience in life 656 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: you could share with other people and help other people 657 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: as you do now. 658 00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 4: I kind of just went into that space. One of 659 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 4: the things I decided to do was, you know, in general, 660 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 4: what military people do, you know, which makes sense, right? 661 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 4: They go into a lateral position in the civilian sector, 662 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 4: and so a lot of the boys were doing private 663 00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 4: security work and Afghanistan, right, But you're not really moving away, 664 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,239 Speaker 4: you're going from one military to the next. And so 665 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 4: I made a conscious effort that as part of my development, 666 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 4: to move into something that had nothing to do with 667 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 4: the military. So I got a call from a friend 668 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 4: of mine, Roger Mortimer, who said, the Kiwi Rugby League 669 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 4: team twenty seventeen was I want someone to come in 670 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 4: and just do some leadership development and culture and you know, 671 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 4: do you want to do it? So I said yeah, 672 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 4: and he said okay, cool, let's let's go, and you've 673 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 4: got to say yes, say you know what I mean, 674 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,400 Speaker 4: his opportunities come around, you know, they'll be scared. So 675 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 4: I went in front of David Kidwell Scott City. We 676 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 4: had a bit of a discussion. He was happy, he said, 677 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 4: let's just crack on and yeah. And so that was 678 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 4: the beginning of where I started believing that I had 679 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,840 Speaker 4: stuff that was useful to others. You know. I started 680 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:09,280 Speaker 4: talking to you know, Simon men Ring and Sean Johnson 681 00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 4: and you know, Russell Packer and you know all there 682 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 4: are Jared Why we were hard Grays and Yail, those 683 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 4: hard menuals good. It was good fun, you know, I mean, 684 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 4: but I listened to us saying okay, cool, you know, 685 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 4: sort of took away the mystery of that they went 686 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 4: to the warriors, and then Olympic athletes and then corporates, 687 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 4: and then I went on and on and on, and 688 00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 4: you know, yeah, and so you know, because you think 689 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 4: that what you know, everyone knows, yeah, you know, until 690 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 4: you get out there and people are like, oh, well, 691 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 4: you know, you know, it's pretty simple stuff, you know, 692 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 4: and that, but not everyone knows it because they don't 693 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 4: get deliberate leadership development or the Army is very good 694 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 4: at deliberate development across a whole lot of skill sets, 695 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 4: in particular leadership. You know, leadership courses are very significant 696 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:54,360 Speaker 4: and involved, you know, like our junior and c is 697 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 4: go through a three month process and then you've got mentors, 698 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 4: you know, I mean that are there good mentors? You 699 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 4: know that that you up and it just goes on 700 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 4: and on. But yeah, and then and then, and then 701 00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,440 Speaker 4: obviously people were saying to me, hey, I think you 702 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 4: should write a book, you know, and and I was thinking, why, 703 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 4: why should because you've got a story to tell. Yeah, 704 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,640 Speaker 4: And I kind of didn't believe them. But yeah, it 705 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 4: wasn't until Steve Askin was killed in a helicopter crash. 706 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 4: He's a lead pilot and on the Porthill Fires in 707 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 4: twenty fifteen. The monsoon bucket wrapped around the tail raider 708 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 4: and he went in. But you know, it was always 709 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 4: going to be something that was outside of his control, 710 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:37,640 Speaker 4: unfortunately for Steve, because he's a very switched on character 711 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 4: and he would have beenble to control everything else. But anyway, 712 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 4: he died as old man approached me and said, hey, 713 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 4: can you write something up about Steve is the man 714 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 4: that was in the regiment, and you know, just just 715 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 4: so those kids have a reference. And then you know symbolism. 716 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,600 Speaker 4: People said enough, you see it, enough, you hear it, enough, 717 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 4: do something about it. So I started writing stuff down, 718 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:03,160 Speaker 4: and you know, one thing led to another, and then 719 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 4: suddenly I've you know, started to put my brain down 720 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 4: on paper. And then then I'm thinking about the threads, 721 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,920 Speaker 4: and then I'm thinking and then I was, you know, 722 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 4: talking to people outside that we're having problems, and I 723 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 4: was thinking, actually, this still probably land with a few people, 724 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 4: and then yeah, and here we are. 725 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 2: Well the thing is because of what your your story, 726 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 2: then people will listen because it's not something that other 727 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 2: people experience. And it puts you in a position of 728 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: authority because you know, you've experienced, as we're saying, for 729 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 2: firefights and that that nice extreme part of it. So 730 00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: you know, you may be a rugby league superstar, but 731 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 2: you haven't experienced that level of intensity, you know what 732 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: I mean. So it gives you a position of authority 733 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: to talk to people in a way you know. 734 00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's very interesting a because you know, once 735 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 4: I was in professional sports, so I could see the 736 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 4: differences obviously we in terms of patriotism, we hold our 737 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 4: sports teams up in high regard and so we should, 738 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 4: but that the same can't be said for our military, 739 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,680 Speaker 4: you know what I mean, You know, I don't think so, 740 00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 4: which is a shame. But yeah, the the the you know, 741 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 4: with sports, sports stars, you know, they high performance sports people. 742 00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,399 Speaker 4: You know, they they have to perform well, they get 743 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 4: to perform under the best conditions, you know, ess they 744 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,719 Speaker 4: get to perform at a high level in the worst conditions, 745 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,440 Speaker 4: sleep deprived, food deprived, you know what I mean, injured, 746 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,399 Speaker 4: possibly out there under the pump all the time. You know. Yeah, 747 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 4: it's yeah, it's just as a totally different mindset. And 748 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 4: there's the reason why we have such a tough selection 749 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 4: process and the reason why we have such a small 750 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 4: percentage of people that can actually pass through it because 751 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 4: it takes a very unique human being. And I'm speaking 752 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 4: for all special forces around the world that need to 753 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 4: go into that space and hold the line. And you know, 754 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 4: it'll be probably I don't know, zero point zero one 755 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 4: percent of the entire global population that get to go 756 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 4: into that space, where you know, sports stars maybe not 757 00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 4: so much. So yeah, no, no disrespect to to sports, 758 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 4: but the starts or anything like that. It's just you know, 759 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 4: making comparisons. 760 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 2: So yeah, well, writing a book about it so people 761 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: can read that story and see what it is, we'll 762 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 2: obviously help with that. Well, Hey, thank you so much 763 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 2: for coming in and talking to us today, Serviceman Jay. 764 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 2: The untold story of an insured s AS soldier is 765 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 2: out right now, and yeah, find it and read it, 766 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 2: and thank you so much for coming in. 767 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 3: It was a great hearing his story. 768 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,279 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, always appreciate the opportunity as always. And yeah, good, 769 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 4: good discussion. 770 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,239 Speaker 3: All right, cheers, mate, cheers, thank you, and we're back. 771 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 2: What a great man he was, a serviceman Jay, Jamie Pennell. 772 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 5: I've got to listen to him for for hours. 773 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, good chat. 774 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,959 Speaker 2: Ah, Yeah, you never know, you didn't even know what questions, 775 00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 2: how deep you want to go into the situation, you know, 776 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 2: around stuff. 777 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,839 Speaker 3: But yeah, got a good man one nice chat. 778 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 5: I mean credits you as well. We knew nothing about 779 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 5: that guy coming into this if for being honest, Yeah. 780 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 2: They failed to siness any information. Rudis said it the 781 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 2: last minute. We've got this guy coming in and you 782 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: feel a little bit intimidated with a you know, Z 783 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 2: says commander coming in who's won a medal for gallantry. 784 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 3: On the spot. 785 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,040 Speaker 2: And then just but he's a good talker and a 786 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 2: good man. And I humiliatingly gave him a copy of 787 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 2: my book because thought would probably have similar things. And 788 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: I imagine he'll be reading my book going, well, this guy 789 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,839 Speaker 2: is talking about how he got into a first fight 790 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:26,319 Speaker 2: because he got grumpy when he was playing guitar for 791 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: Tim Fin And then you know, like. 792 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 3: Like the level of intensity of to be to be 793 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 3: that guy. 794 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, but similar themes, wasn't It might be just different, 795 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:39,080 Speaker 5: but the themes also like, you know, a different breed 796 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 5: fest of all to be someone like that, right, Yeah, 797 00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 5: but I even know. I mean I've only been in 798 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 5: radio for like four years, but he was the only 799 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 5: person ever to pick up the headphones and make sure 800 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 5: that they're left and the right side. 801 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 3: That's a really good thing to notice. 802 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,960 Speaker 5: When he came in, he was like on left, you're right. Yeah, 803 00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,800 Speaker 5: so that goes on. I'll sit down here getting. 804 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 2: The basics right before he went into combat of talking 805 00:36:57,960 --> 00:36:58,239 Speaker 2: to us. 806 00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really interesting thing to note, is fascinating. 807 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,919 Speaker 2: But what a good man he was and you should 808 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 2: buy that book and give him a taste a kiwi. 809 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 2: And that's the Daily Bespoke podcast. You seem busy, so 810 00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,720 Speaker 2: we'll let you go. Bless bless bliss. All right, okay, 811 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: then all right you're right manh yeah, you show that 812 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,720 Speaker 2: one up your ass, Meshy. Jesus Christ mate yack. Highlight 813 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 2: podcast out as well, by the way, Oh yeah, you're 814 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,720 Speaker 2: the Highlights podcast. That's pretty good. It's not the bloody 815 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,279 Speaker 2: going into battle and the bull international though. 816 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 4: Was that? 817 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 5: It puts your life into a harsh perspective, doesn't it. 818 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 2: When you talk to someone like that, You go, what 819 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 2: was a decent that's been cut down to sixty minutes 820 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 2: of some pretty quality broadcasting. But it's not a firefighter, 821 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 2: isn't it? 822 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:33,600 Speaker 5: No, it's not. 823 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: It wasn't a bloody. We weren't hiding behind the disc 824 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 2: in a flow state fighting for a fucking lives. 825 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 3: Meshy. You don't think of that important. You're just a radio. 826 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 5: Host someone by the way telling you how they got 827 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 5: shot at and then they laughed very loudly. 828 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 3: It's quite an uncomfortable position. 829 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 5: To be in because you're kind of looking around the 830 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 5: wad go I don't know if I can laugh at it. 831 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 2: All right, then okay, shove that up your ass. 832 00:37:57,960 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 3: Hello, I'm Matt Heath. 833 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 2: You have been listening to the Matt and Jerry Daily 834 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 2: Bespoke podcast. Right now you can listen to our Radio 835 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,400 Speaker 2: Highlights podcast, which you will absolutely get. 836 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,720 Speaker 3: Barred up about anyway. 837 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,920 Speaker 2: Sit to download, like, subscribe, write, review all those great things. 838 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,640 Speaker 2: It really helps myself and Jerry and to a lesser extent, 839 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: Mesh and Ruder. 840 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 3: If you want to. 841 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 2: Discuss anything raised in this pod, check out the Conclave, 842 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,319 Speaker 2: a Matt and Jerry Facebook discussion group. And while I'm 843 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 2: plugging stuff, my book, A Lifeless Punishing Thirteen Ways to 844 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:26,160 Speaker 2: Love the Life. 845 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,399 Speaker 3: You've Got is out now get it wherever you get 846 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 3: your books, or just google the bastard. 847 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,359 Speaker 2: Anyway you seem busy, I'll let you go. 848 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 3: Bless Blessed, blessed. Give them a taste of keyw from me,