1 00:00:09,093 --> 00:00:11,973 Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from news talks it B. 2 00:00:12,373 --> 00:00:16,173 Speaker 1: Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio. 3 00:00:16,733 --> 00:00:19,733 Speaker 1: It's time for all the attitude, all the opinion, all 4 00:00:19,773 --> 00:00:26,013 Speaker 1: the information, all the debate, now the Leyton Smith Podcast 5 00:00:26,253 --> 00:00:27,653 Speaker 1: powered by news talks it B. 6 00:00:28,093 --> 00:00:30,453 Speaker 2: Welcome to the Mess of the Layton Smith Podcast for 7 00:00:30,693 --> 00:00:36,013 Speaker 2: the eighth of January twenty twenty five. Now in this podcast, 8 00:00:36,533 --> 00:00:38,453 Speaker 2: I would think that most people are aware of this 9 00:00:38,733 --> 00:00:43,493 Speaker 2: particular scenario across the Tasman but one that one that 10 00:00:43,533 --> 00:00:46,893 Speaker 2: affects us too. But New Zealand men and women are 11 00:00:46,933 --> 00:00:50,413 Speaker 2: being encouraged to pay attention to the court decision in 12 00:00:50,453 --> 00:00:53,093 Speaker 2: the case of Tickle and Giggle. So the question is 13 00:00:53,133 --> 00:00:57,973 Speaker 2: why are we interested in a comedic sounding Australian judge's decision. Well, 14 00:00:58,133 --> 00:01:03,173 Speaker 2: the ruling has been labeled dystopian and distorting key concepts 15 00:01:03,173 --> 00:01:08,213 Speaker 2: of sex and discrimination while dodging Australia's human rights obligations. 16 00:01:08,413 --> 00:01:12,093 Speaker 2: These are the women. If unchallenged, this decision would set 17 00:01:12,413 --> 00:01:15,253 Speaker 2: a dangerous precedent and you see it is in danger 18 00:01:15,253 --> 00:01:20,173 Speaker 2: of falling into the same human rights trap the incomparable 19 00:01:20,213 --> 00:01:24,933 Speaker 2: Professor James Allen analyzes the Tickle case as only he 20 00:01:25,053 --> 00:01:28,973 Speaker 2: can and you cannot help but enjoy it. In the meantime, 21 00:01:29,093 --> 00:01:32,773 Speaker 2: I trust that you were enjoying the holiday period. We 22 00:01:32,893 --> 00:01:38,053 Speaker 2: will be back with live content from the seventh of February. 23 00:01:38,253 --> 00:01:56,373 Speaker 2: In the meantime, the best stoves will continue. 24 00:01:51,013 --> 00:01:51,773 Speaker 3: Layton Smith. 25 00:01:53,133 --> 00:01:57,533 Speaker 2: Leverix is an antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. 26 00:01:57,773 --> 00:02:01,613 Speaker 2: Leverix relieves hay fever and skin allergies or itchy skin. 27 00:02:02,093 --> 00:02:06,413 Speaker 2: It's a dual action antihistamine and has a unique nasal 28 00:02:06,653 --> 00:02:11,253 Speaker 2: decongestant action. It's fast acting for fast relief and it 29 00:02:11,333 --> 00:02:14,373 Speaker 2: works in under an hour and lasts for over twenty 30 00:02:14,453 --> 00:02:18,253 Speaker 2: four hours. Leverrix is a tiny tablet that unblocks the nose, 31 00:02:18,573 --> 00:02:22,493 Speaker 2: deals with itchy eyes, and stops sneezing. Leverris is an 32 00:02:22,493 --> 00:02:26,893 Speaker 2: antihistamine made in Switzerland to the highest quality. So next 33 00:02:26,893 --> 00:02:30,453 Speaker 2: time you're in need of an effective antihistamine, call into 34 00:02:30,453 --> 00:02:36,533 Speaker 2: the pharmacy and ask for Leverix lv Rix Leverrix and 35 00:02:36,653 --> 00:02:40,293 Speaker 2: always read the label. Takes directed and if symptoms persist, 36 00:02:40,493 --> 00:02:51,053 Speaker 2: see your health professional. Farmer Broker Auckland Sporting. I was 37 00:02:51,053 --> 00:02:54,693 Speaker 2: sitting up in bed very early and in came the 38 00:02:54,813 --> 00:02:58,773 Speaker 2: Spectator page of the day, I'll call it, and the 39 00:02:58,853 --> 00:03:01,333 Speaker 2: leading article, as far as I was concerned, was one 40 00:03:01,333 --> 00:03:06,413 Speaker 2: that was headed New Zealand's Imperial Judiciary by Professor James 41 00:03:06,413 --> 00:03:09,693 Speaker 2: allenmer Jim Allen is well known to the audience that 42 00:03:10,533 --> 00:03:15,293 Speaker 2: regularly listens to this podcast or radio before that, but 43 00:03:15,413 --> 00:03:18,973 Speaker 2: for those who don't, who are not familiar with the man, 44 00:03:19,373 --> 00:03:22,333 Speaker 2: he is a prolific writer and commentator. He's a fighter 45 00:03:22,373 --> 00:03:25,853 Speaker 2: for freedom, he battles evil and he is the Garrick 46 00:03:25,933 --> 00:03:28,653 Speaker 2: Professor of Law at the University of Queensland. He's Canadian 47 00:03:28,693 --> 00:03:32,053 Speaker 2: by birth. He worked in New Zealand at a Tiger 48 00:03:32,173 --> 00:03:35,253 Speaker 2: University for a number of years before moving on to 49 00:03:35,333 --> 00:03:40,053 Speaker 2: the University of Queensland. And I I read this piece 50 00:03:40,053 --> 00:03:45,213 Speaker 2: in New Zealand's Imperial Judiciary and it responded to what 51 00:03:45,413 --> 00:03:49,373 Speaker 2: I was attempting to put together for myself, and I thought, no, no, no, 52 00:03:49,933 --> 00:03:51,773 Speaker 2: There's only one way to deal with this, and that's 53 00:03:51,813 --> 00:03:52,493 Speaker 2: to make the call. 54 00:03:52,613 --> 00:03:53,213 Speaker 3: And I did. 55 00:03:53,613 --> 00:03:56,933 Speaker 2: Jim, I appreciate it very much. Thank you for your 56 00:03:56,933 --> 00:03:58,213 Speaker 2: contribution in advance. 57 00:03:59,093 --> 00:04:01,613 Speaker 3: Well, thank you late. And that's one of those introductions 58 00:04:01,653 --> 00:04:03,933 Speaker 3: that my dad would love to have heard. And my 59 00:04:04,013 --> 00:04:07,013 Speaker 3: Mum would have believed it, but it was exceedingly generous. 60 00:04:07,013 --> 00:04:10,253 Speaker 2: When not generous, thank you very much, I'd say I 61 00:04:10,253 --> 00:04:12,813 Speaker 2: pulled up a bit short. Actually, let me just hit 62 00:04:12,853 --> 00:04:15,093 Speaker 2: on the opening of this. If you cast your eyes 63 00:04:15,093 --> 00:04:17,813 Speaker 2: across the Tasman right now, you can see the beginnings 64 00:04:17,853 --> 00:04:21,813 Speaker 2: of an imperial judiciary, the makings of which are being 65 00:04:21,893 --> 00:04:25,013 Speaker 2: cheered on at every step by many of those in 66 00:04:25,053 --> 00:04:28,533 Speaker 2: the loyally cast and in the law schools. What do 67 00:04:28,573 --> 00:04:31,853 Speaker 2: I mean by an imperial judiciary? I refer to a 68 00:04:31,933 --> 00:04:36,173 Speaker 2: country where the top judges, committees of unelected ex lawyers, 69 00:04:36,653 --> 00:04:39,973 Speaker 2: if we want to deal in specifics, are giving themselves 70 00:04:40,093 --> 00:04:43,253 Speaker 2: new found power at the expense of the elected branches 71 00:04:43,253 --> 00:04:46,693 Speaker 2: of government, under the cover of purportedly applying the law. 72 00:04:47,093 --> 00:04:51,693 Speaker 2: They are usurping power to themselves. Now that is just 73 00:04:51,773 --> 00:04:55,653 Speaker 2: the opening. You also wrote a book published ten years 74 00:04:55,653 --> 00:05:00,213 Speaker 2: ago into twenty fourteen, democracy and Decline steps in the 75 00:05:00,253 --> 00:05:02,733 Speaker 2: wrong direction, And I'm sure I must have been of 76 00:05:02,813 --> 00:05:06,013 Speaker 2: viewed you at the time. What changes have taken place 77 00:05:06,293 --> 00:05:09,053 Speaker 2: in the ten years since you wrote in part that book? 78 00:05:09,293 --> 00:05:11,653 Speaker 2: How much different is it today? 79 00:05:12,493 --> 00:05:15,573 Speaker 3: Well, firstly, I did I have a more recent book 80 00:05:15,613 --> 00:05:17,733 Speaker 3: from a couple of years ago called the Age of Foolishness, 81 00:05:17,733 --> 00:05:19,773 Speaker 3: which sort of updates things a that it came out 82 00:05:20,013 --> 00:05:23,093 Speaker 3: with a US publisher, because you're always helping to sell 83 00:05:23,173 --> 00:05:26,653 Speaker 3: more than a couple hundred books, but that's almost impossible 84 00:05:26,653 --> 00:05:29,293 Speaker 3: to do these days. It's very hard. So that's called 85 00:05:29,293 --> 00:05:32,053 Speaker 3: the Age of foolishness that came out a couple years ago. Basically, 86 00:05:32,133 --> 00:05:36,013 Speaker 3: here is the underlying problem. Late people have this image 87 00:05:36,053 --> 00:05:39,173 Speaker 3: of lawyers and law students and law schools and the 88 00:05:39,253 --> 00:05:42,653 Speaker 3: judiciary that goes back to maybe fifty years ago. And 89 00:05:42,973 --> 00:05:44,973 Speaker 3: the data on this is overwhelming. If you go back 90 00:05:45,013 --> 00:05:48,613 Speaker 3: fifty or sixty years, the median member of the Loyally 91 00:05:48,693 --> 00:05:52,453 Speaker 3: fraternity was politically to the right of the median voter, 92 00:05:53,133 --> 00:05:58,693 Speaker 3: so conservative interpretively conservative. Today, the median member of the 93 00:05:58,773 --> 00:06:02,253 Speaker 3: Loyally cast is a couple orders of magnitude to the 94 00:06:02,453 --> 00:06:05,613 Speaker 3: left of the median voter. And by that I don't 95 00:06:05,613 --> 00:06:08,653 Speaker 3: mean the sort of old fashioned redistribution of wealth left 96 00:06:08,653 --> 00:06:11,333 Speaker 3: wing person. I have a bit of empathy for them. 97 00:06:11,333 --> 00:06:12,973 Speaker 3: I think they're wrong on the economy. I think they 98 00:06:12,973 --> 00:06:16,453 Speaker 3: don't understand comparative advantage. But I basically I get along 99 00:06:16,573 --> 00:06:19,333 Speaker 3: very well with old fashioned labor type voters who want 100 00:06:19,373 --> 00:06:22,613 Speaker 3: to redistribute wealth. But today's left wing parties that we 101 00:06:22,733 --> 00:06:26,053 Speaker 3: might call the human rights brigade, left wing parties right, 102 00:06:26,453 --> 00:06:32,293 Speaker 3: and that you know, the lawyerly cast. It's just overwhelmingly 103 00:06:32,493 --> 00:06:34,453 Speaker 3: in that camp. And you can see it here in Australia. 104 00:06:34,493 --> 00:06:39,013 Speaker 3: We just had a major constitutional referendum and you know, 105 00:06:39,053 --> 00:06:41,373 Speaker 3: it ended up being defeated at sixty one thirty nine. 106 00:06:41,413 --> 00:06:44,773 Speaker 3: I did predict that really early on. But every there 107 00:06:44,813 --> 00:06:48,533 Speaker 3: were thirty six odd law schools in Australia, over about 108 00:06:48,533 --> 00:06:50,733 Speaker 3: two thirds of them came out for yes. Not a 109 00:06:50,773 --> 00:06:53,573 Speaker 3: single one came out for no, so they purported to 110 00:06:53,613 --> 00:06:57,653 Speaker 3: be neutral. The other third, the big law firms came 111 00:06:57,693 --> 00:07:01,253 Speaker 3: out yes. The big corporations came out. The sort of 112 00:07:01,293 --> 00:07:05,053 Speaker 3: elite pillars of society on all sorts of sort of 113 00:07:05,133 --> 00:07:09,573 Speaker 3: touchy feely identity politics type issues are massively to the 114 00:07:09,693 --> 00:07:12,573 Speaker 3: left as the median voter, and you know, they think 115 00:07:12,613 --> 00:07:15,493 Speaker 3: they're more really superior people. And we saw it amongst 116 00:07:15,613 --> 00:07:18,373 Speaker 3: lawyers or some top QC's, we saw it amongst some 117 00:07:18,453 --> 00:07:21,093 Speaker 3: sitting judges came out and called people who were against 118 00:07:21,093 --> 00:07:24,853 Speaker 3: this referendum, you know, racis and that is what we 119 00:07:24,893 --> 00:07:28,453 Speaker 3: are producing in law schools. If you think that today's 120 00:07:28,533 --> 00:07:30,893 Speaker 3: law school is anything like the law school of the 121 00:07:30,973 --> 00:07:34,293 Speaker 3: nineteen eighties, you're just you're deluding yourself. In fact, I 122 00:07:34,973 --> 00:07:37,933 Speaker 3: personally would never give money to any university. I don't think. 123 00:07:37,973 --> 00:07:40,253 Speaker 3: I think you're making the world worse. And I work 124 00:07:40,253 --> 00:07:44,573 Speaker 3: in them, and so that, and so you have this 125 00:07:45,253 --> 00:07:48,533 Speaker 3: cast of and of course there's obviously exceptions on talking 126 00:07:48,533 --> 00:07:52,213 Speaker 3: to statistical terms. There's outlawyers. Of course, of course, yes, 127 00:07:52,293 --> 00:07:55,813 Speaker 3: let's admit all that. But the problem is going right 128 00:07:55,853 --> 00:07:58,093 Speaker 3: back to when I got to New Zealand in nineteen 129 00:07:58,173 --> 00:08:01,533 Speaker 3: ninety three. You bring in a statutory bill of rights, 130 00:08:02,013 --> 00:08:04,453 Speaker 3: and it when you buy a bill of rights, all 131 00:08:04,493 --> 00:08:07,493 Speaker 3: you are doing is buying the views of the judges, 132 00:08:07,853 --> 00:08:10,373 Speaker 3: or if you'd like, the views of the lawyerly cast, 133 00:08:11,133 --> 00:08:14,413 Speaker 3: and so on, all sorts of issues. You know, in 134 00:08:14,453 --> 00:08:16,453 Speaker 3: these recent cases we're going to come to talk about 135 00:08:16,893 --> 00:08:18,613 Speaker 3: the judges. They are saying that, well, you know, their 136 00:08:18,693 --> 00:08:22,053 Speaker 3: job is to keep pace with societal values. The judge, 137 00:08:22,053 --> 00:08:24,453 Speaker 3: the top judges in the Anglish, if they wouldn't have 138 00:08:24,493 --> 00:08:28,013 Speaker 3: a clue what society's values are, they live in little cocoons. 139 00:08:28,733 --> 00:08:32,173 Speaker 3: Leave aside the politics top judges are. You know, their 140 00:08:32,653 --> 00:08:34,893 Speaker 3: barristers make their living in front of the judges. They 141 00:08:34,933 --> 00:08:37,893 Speaker 3: will never say a critical word to a judge. Judges 142 00:08:37,933 --> 00:08:39,933 Speaker 3: have no one to tell them that they disagree with them, 143 00:08:39,973 --> 00:08:42,613 Speaker 3: except maybe their spouse at home at night. They you 144 00:08:42,653 --> 00:08:46,093 Speaker 3: know Youurraiah Heap would look brave compared to the way 145 00:08:46,413 --> 00:08:51,053 Speaker 3: most barristers and the law clerks treat top judges. So 146 00:08:51,093 --> 00:08:54,293 Speaker 3: a they have no self awareness, No one ever disagrees 147 00:08:54,333 --> 00:08:58,653 Speaker 3: with them. And politically they come from a group who've 148 00:08:58,693 --> 00:09:01,173 Speaker 3: been inculcated with values in the law schools and the 149 00:09:01,173 --> 00:09:03,973 Speaker 3: big law firms that are massively out of keeping with 150 00:09:04,093 --> 00:09:06,853 Speaker 3: the average persons. And so when they talk about you know, 151 00:09:06,973 --> 00:09:10,173 Speaker 3: social values in society values, they wouldn't you know, they're 152 00:09:10,173 --> 00:09:12,733 Speaker 3: not talking about yours and mind, they're talking about the 153 00:09:12,853 --> 00:09:15,093 Speaker 3: kind of values you would get if you walked in 154 00:09:15,133 --> 00:09:17,573 Speaker 3: to the biggest law firm in Auckland, and the biggest 155 00:09:17,613 --> 00:09:19,813 Speaker 3: law firm in Auckland would make you, you know, tell 156 00:09:19,853 --> 00:09:22,653 Speaker 3: them your pronouns as you walked in. They would have 157 00:09:22,773 --> 00:09:26,093 Speaker 3: the Maori flag flying somewhere. They are they are not? 158 00:09:26,693 --> 00:09:30,893 Speaker 3: And who gave these unelected judges this role? Like who 159 00:09:30,933 --> 00:09:34,053 Speaker 3: wants a bunch of If you were picking people to 160 00:09:34,173 --> 00:09:38,013 Speaker 3: determine social moral values, why would you pick lawyers. I mean, 161 00:09:38,133 --> 00:09:40,773 Speaker 3: they're the last group of people you would pick, you know, 162 00:09:40,773 --> 00:09:43,493 Speaker 3: So these people not only have this innate sort of 163 00:09:43,573 --> 00:09:49,213 Speaker 3: sense of moral self righteousness, they're asked they actually they're 164 00:09:49,293 --> 00:09:52,493 Speaker 3: never part of the cut and thrust of debate where 165 00:09:52,493 --> 00:09:54,853 Speaker 3: people are telling them what's wrong with I'm sure that 166 00:09:54,893 --> 00:09:58,213 Speaker 3: you get the odd descent. But even you know, even 167 00:09:58,253 --> 00:10:01,173 Speaker 3: on these recent cases, even the right of center political 168 00:10:01,213 --> 00:10:05,573 Speaker 3: parties in the anglosphere appoint judges who are left. Look 169 00:10:05,613 --> 00:10:08,253 Speaker 3: at the you know, look at the under sixteen voting case, 170 00:10:08,493 --> 00:10:11,573 Speaker 3: and the only dissenter was a labor appointee. So, in 171 00:10:11,653 --> 00:10:16,013 Speaker 3: other words, is worthless. Yes this was in New Zealand. Yeah, 172 00:10:16,013 --> 00:10:18,333 Speaker 3: that's in New Zealand, but it's true in Australia in 173 00:10:18,333 --> 00:10:21,693 Speaker 3: the Big Love case, and in fact Canada because a 174 00:10:21,853 --> 00:10:25,533 Speaker 3: it's very difficult to find an interpretively conservative judge these days. 175 00:10:25,693 --> 00:10:27,853 Speaker 3: Just go and look at the kinds of things that 176 00:10:27,893 --> 00:10:29,373 Speaker 3: are being taught in the law schools. 177 00:10:29,813 --> 00:10:33,653 Speaker 2: Isn't the principle though, or wasn't it once the search 178 00:10:33,693 --> 00:10:34,093 Speaker 2: for truth? 179 00:10:36,373 --> 00:10:38,373 Speaker 3: Well, yes, of course we're all in the search for truth, 180 00:10:38,413 --> 00:10:40,533 Speaker 3: and if it's a criminal trial, of course you you 181 00:10:41,893 --> 00:10:44,333 Speaker 3: trade off the search for truth to some extent with 182 00:10:44,413 --> 00:10:47,893 Speaker 3: the presumption of innocence and with the underlying idea that 183 00:10:47,973 --> 00:10:50,573 Speaker 3: it's better for you know, the first thing you learn 184 00:10:50,653 --> 00:10:53,333 Speaker 3: in the criminal law course I assume it's still true 185 00:10:53,613 --> 00:10:56,053 Speaker 3: in New Zealand, is that it's better for you ten 186 00:10:56,093 --> 00:10:58,613 Speaker 3: guilty people to go free, then one innocent person goes 187 00:10:58,653 --> 00:11:01,173 Speaker 3: to jail. So you have this You only convict if 188 00:11:01,213 --> 00:11:03,933 Speaker 3: there's a if you have any reasonable doubt at all, 189 00:11:03,933 --> 00:11:06,853 Speaker 3: you don't convict. So you're trading off truth. Because if 190 00:11:06,853 --> 00:11:09,333 Speaker 3: someone said to you, lay in fifty to fifty, what 191 00:11:09,373 --> 00:11:11,533 Speaker 3: do you think? I think he did it, But then 192 00:11:11,573 --> 00:11:13,333 Speaker 3: he said, have you got a reasonable doubt? And a 193 00:11:13,373 --> 00:11:14,613 Speaker 3: lot of the times you say, well, I do have 194 00:11:14,653 --> 00:11:17,333 Speaker 3: a reasonable doubt. And so because I'm not prepared to 195 00:11:17,373 --> 00:11:19,493 Speaker 3: put I'm not prepared to take the risk of an 196 00:11:19,493 --> 00:11:21,893 Speaker 3: innocent person going to do I'm going to acquit. And 197 00:11:21,973 --> 00:11:23,693 Speaker 3: a lot of lay people get it wrong. They think 198 00:11:23,733 --> 00:11:26,853 Speaker 3: when someone's acquitted, the jury or the judge is saying 199 00:11:26,933 --> 00:11:30,293 Speaker 3: he didn't do it. But they're not saying that, you know, overwhelmingly, 200 00:11:30,413 --> 00:11:32,853 Speaker 3: usually they're thinking he did do it, but I have 201 00:11:32,893 --> 00:11:35,253 Speaker 3: a reasonable doubt, and I live in a civilized society, 202 00:11:35,253 --> 00:11:38,213 Speaker 3: and that makes perfect sense. So, yes, the truth is 203 00:11:38,293 --> 00:11:40,733 Speaker 3: there sometimes and it's in the background, but we trade 204 00:11:40,773 --> 00:11:43,653 Speaker 3: it off against all sorts of other values. But what 205 00:11:43,733 --> 00:11:46,293 Speaker 3: we don't do normally until the last thirty years is 206 00:11:46,333 --> 00:11:49,253 Speaker 3: we don't say we are making a bunch of unelected 207 00:11:49,293 --> 00:11:52,173 Speaker 3: ex lawyers who happen to be top judges the sort 208 00:11:52,213 --> 00:11:55,453 Speaker 3: of moral arbiters of society. I don't want that, and 209 00:11:55,893 --> 00:11:57,813 Speaker 3: I've never wanted that, and I think it's a terrible 210 00:11:58,053 --> 00:12:00,373 Speaker 3: And these people get a bit puffed up, and they 211 00:12:00,373 --> 00:12:04,093 Speaker 3: become you know, I don't want to say pontifical, but 212 00:12:04,173 --> 00:12:06,893 Speaker 3: they are they and they sort of believe their own 213 00:12:06,933 --> 00:12:09,733 Speaker 3: pr and so they start making these decisions as if, 214 00:12:09,773 --> 00:12:13,133 Speaker 3: you know, they should be the ones who decide about, 215 00:12:13,613 --> 00:12:17,573 Speaker 3: you know, how to deal with climate change. Nobody, you know, 216 00:12:17,613 --> 00:12:19,733 Speaker 3: we live in a democracy. Nobody cares what a bunch 217 00:12:19,773 --> 00:12:22,053 Speaker 3: of exp lawyers. Their job is to apply the law. 218 00:12:22,453 --> 00:12:24,933 Speaker 3: In some instances, the law gives them a discretion to 219 00:12:25,053 --> 00:12:28,613 Speaker 3: use their own first order moral views. That's fine, But 220 00:12:28,653 --> 00:12:32,093 Speaker 3: when they're not explicitly given that, they shouldn't be taking 221 00:12:32,133 --> 00:12:34,733 Speaker 3: it for themselves. They shouldn't be making up, you know, 222 00:12:34,773 --> 00:12:38,693 Speaker 3: a right to give declarations of inconsistency. And so I 223 00:12:38,733 --> 00:12:42,333 Speaker 3: think there's there's problems everywhere, but New Zealand is supposed 224 00:12:42,333 --> 00:12:47,213 Speaker 3: to be a parliamentary sovereignty. What Parliament says goes, and 225 00:12:47,293 --> 00:12:49,333 Speaker 3: I like that system. But it's pretty clear that a 226 00:12:49,333 --> 00:12:51,933 Speaker 3: lot of the top judges in New Zealand today wish 227 00:12:52,053 --> 00:12:55,053 Speaker 3: that they had a written constitution that gave them a 228 00:12:55,093 --> 00:13:00,173 Speaker 3: sort of Canada like rule in setting forth public policy. Well, 229 00:13:00,533 --> 00:13:01,933 Speaker 3: you know, well I don't like that at all. 230 00:13:02,053 --> 00:13:05,013 Speaker 2: Listen, they didn't lead a written constitution over the last 231 00:13:05,013 --> 00:13:08,293 Speaker 2: three years. They did what they did, what they wanted. 232 00:13:09,213 --> 00:13:12,693 Speaker 2: And I'm talking about I'm talking about the government itself 233 00:13:12,893 --> 00:13:17,533 Speaker 2: and sorry, and the judges who made a couple of decisions. 234 00:13:17,973 --> 00:13:20,333 Speaker 3: I want to quite well, just while you're on that, lady, 235 00:13:20,373 --> 00:13:23,173 Speaker 3: you and I agree that the response to COVID was 236 00:13:23,253 --> 00:13:25,813 Speaker 3: thuggish and authoritarian, but it just goes back to my 237 00:13:25,893 --> 00:13:28,853 Speaker 3: earlier point. When you buy a bill of rights, you're 238 00:13:28,893 --> 00:13:32,453 Speaker 3: buying the views of the judges, and in COVID, the 239 00:13:32,573 --> 00:13:36,893 Speaker 3: judges were completely on board with the authoritarian response. You know, 240 00:13:36,933 --> 00:13:39,533 Speaker 3: they they had as much moral panic as anyone else. 241 00:13:40,013 --> 00:13:43,053 Speaker 3: So when I during the lockdown, when people came there, 242 00:13:43,053 --> 00:13:45,733 Speaker 3: I said, don't bother going to court because the judges 243 00:13:45,773 --> 00:13:48,333 Speaker 3: are fully on board with this and you're not going 244 00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:51,173 Speaker 3: to win any of these cases. What normally happens is 245 00:13:51,213 --> 00:13:54,293 Speaker 3: you wait five or six years or ten years, and 246 00:13:54,573 --> 00:13:58,093 Speaker 3: the panic subsides, and you know, the data starts making 247 00:13:58,133 --> 00:14:00,453 Speaker 3: it unbelievably clear they were wrong, and then the judges 248 00:14:00,493 --> 00:14:03,533 Speaker 3: will start deciding cases for you. And that's happening, that 249 00:14:03,693 --> 00:14:06,373 Speaker 3: is starting to happen. We're seeing the ond case coming 250 00:14:06,413 --> 00:14:09,453 Speaker 3: out of Canada. We had one or in Queensland. I 251 00:14:09,453 --> 00:14:11,333 Speaker 3: think you had one over in New Zealand, but it's 252 00:14:11,373 --> 00:14:14,213 Speaker 3: only after the panic has settled down. So I never 253 00:14:14,333 --> 00:14:17,133 Speaker 3: expected the judges were as bad as anyone and making 254 00:14:17,173 --> 00:14:19,613 Speaker 3: you wear masks to come into court. You know, the 255 00:14:19,653 --> 00:14:22,653 Speaker 3: Cochrane Review has made it clear that masks do nothing. 256 00:14:23,373 --> 00:14:26,573 Speaker 3: They were just a sign of obedience to government authorities. 257 00:14:26,613 --> 00:14:28,533 Speaker 3: I mean, and I when I was in New Zealand 258 00:14:28,653 --> 00:14:31,533 Speaker 3: was in the New Zealand skeptics. I was as involved 259 00:14:31,533 --> 00:14:34,613 Speaker 3: as anyone is trying to get people to take vaccines 260 00:14:34,733 --> 00:14:38,813 Speaker 3: and to believe science. But the problem was the science 261 00:14:38,853 --> 00:14:42,133 Speaker 3: did not support what the governments were doing. And you 262 00:14:42,133 --> 00:14:44,813 Speaker 3: can look at excess deaths in New Zealand now, cumulative 263 00:14:44,853 --> 00:14:49,573 Speaker 3: excess deaths. You know what these massive authoritarian lockdowns did 264 00:14:50,013 --> 00:14:52,613 Speaker 3: was they just delayed what, you know, what was going 265 00:14:52,653 --> 00:14:55,373 Speaker 3: to happen, and it was never going to affect young people, 266 00:14:55,613 --> 00:15:00,133 Speaker 3: so well, young people for old people, and I don't 267 00:15:00,213 --> 00:15:02,093 Speaker 3: like that. I mean, I'm in the old camp. But 268 00:15:02,773 --> 00:15:04,973 Speaker 3: you know, in what kind of society is it good 269 00:15:04,973 --> 00:15:07,653 Speaker 3: to sell out young people for people whose age is 270 00:15:07,653 --> 00:15:10,973 Speaker 3: over the life expectancy. I don't know grandparents who'd want 271 00:15:11,013 --> 00:15:13,653 Speaker 3: to do that to their grandchildren. So I hated that 272 00:15:13,693 --> 00:15:16,653 Speaker 3: whole thing. But I never expected the judges to be 273 00:15:16,733 --> 00:15:18,853 Speaker 3: the ones to fix it, and in a way, maybe 274 00:15:18,893 --> 00:15:20,373 Speaker 3: they shouldn't be the one to fix it. I mean, 275 00:15:20,573 --> 00:15:23,773 Speaker 3: in a parliamentary sovereignty, the parliament should fix it. And 276 00:15:23,773 --> 00:15:25,773 Speaker 3: if you don't like what they did, you vote them out. 277 00:15:25,933 --> 00:15:28,893 Speaker 3: I never liked what char Center during was doing, you know, 278 00:15:28,973 --> 00:15:31,813 Speaker 3: with her ridiculous claim that we're the sole source of truth. 279 00:15:32,333 --> 00:15:35,333 Speaker 3: If there's a more laughable claim in the history of 280 00:15:35,373 --> 00:15:38,213 Speaker 3: Western development, I don't know what it is, but the 281 00:15:38,333 --> 00:15:41,573 Speaker 3: government is never the sore source of truth. You know 282 00:15:41,613 --> 00:15:44,733 Speaker 3: at anything, they're open to being contested on everything. 283 00:15:44,893 --> 00:15:49,093 Speaker 2: Indeed, well I should be. So let me sort of 284 00:15:49,853 --> 00:15:53,733 Speaker 2: turn us toward the main cause of this conversation. I 285 00:15:53,773 --> 00:15:58,453 Speaker 2: want to quite again from democracy and decline steps in 286 00:15:58,533 --> 00:16:03,973 Speaker 2: the wrong direction, or at least from the review of it. 287 00:16:04,893 --> 00:16:08,573 Speaker 2: Democracy and Decline charts how democracy is being diluted and 288 00:16:08,613 --> 00:16:12,653 Speaker 2: restricted in five of the world's oldest democracies, the US, Canada, 289 00:16:12,773 --> 00:16:17,573 Speaker 2: United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand. James Allen target's four 290 00:16:17,613 --> 00:16:22,773 Speaker 2: main interconnected causes of decline judicial activism. We've talked about 291 00:16:22,773 --> 00:16:26,373 Speaker 2: that before, you and I, the transformation and growth of 292 00:16:26,493 --> 00:16:31,573 Speaker 2: international law, the development of supranational organizations in the presence 293 00:16:31,613 --> 00:16:35,653 Speaker 2: of undemocratic elites, and all of those things I think 294 00:16:35,693 --> 00:16:40,253 Speaker 2: have a part to play in the case that we 295 00:16:40,373 --> 00:16:45,293 Speaker 2: are here to discuss. In essence, and that was or 296 00:16:45,493 --> 00:16:50,573 Speaker 2: is Smith versus Fonterra. And I'm looking at a couple 297 00:16:50,613 --> 00:16:53,973 Speaker 2: of a couple of headlines, this from lawyers for climate 298 00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:59,293 Speaker 2: action Smith the Fonterra a significant win in the Supreme Court. 299 00:17:00,133 --> 00:17:04,413 Speaker 2: There is there are others. New Zealand Supreme Court opens 300 00:17:04,493 --> 00:17:08,173 Speaker 2: door to climate litigation against corporates. What does this mean 301 00:17:08,173 --> 00:17:11,053 Speaker 2: for Australia. That was from the law firm Clayton Hoods, 302 00:17:11,533 --> 00:17:16,813 Speaker 2: and there's more of the same now if we go 303 00:17:16,893 --> 00:17:19,733 Speaker 2: back to the year twenty twelve, I believe it was 304 00:17:19,773 --> 00:17:22,533 Speaker 2: twenty twelve. I'm doing this from memory. There was a 305 00:17:22,573 --> 00:17:26,973 Speaker 2: case that was filed by the New Zealand Science New 306 00:17:27,013 --> 00:17:33,173 Speaker 2: Zealand Climate Science Coalition and they took action against NIWA 307 00:17:33,773 --> 00:17:37,773 Speaker 2: over niwa's methods, and I think it was the High 308 00:17:37,853 --> 00:17:45,053 Speaker 2: Court where the Sole Justice turfed it out. He declined 309 00:17:45,053 --> 00:17:49,533 Speaker 2: to proceed with it. He allocated costs to against against 310 00:17:49,573 --> 00:17:52,453 Speaker 2: the coalition which they couldn't pay, and they went belly 311 00:17:52,533 --> 00:17:57,573 Speaker 2: up and that basically disintegrated I think now, and Newa 312 00:17:57,693 --> 00:18:00,493 Speaker 2: got away with it. But the reason, as far as 313 00:18:00,493 --> 00:18:03,133 Speaker 2: I'm aware, that he didn't take it on and wouldn't 314 00:18:03,173 --> 00:18:07,693 Speaker 2: proceed with it was because he didn't think that the 315 00:18:07,733 --> 00:18:09,893 Speaker 2: court room was the right place to be sorting out 316 00:18:09,973 --> 00:18:12,493 Speaker 2: matters of science. And I agreed with that, and I 317 00:18:12,493 --> 00:18:14,213 Speaker 2: thought that they did the wrong thing at the time 318 00:18:14,213 --> 00:18:18,213 Speaker 2: by taking it to court for exactly those reasons. Now 319 00:18:18,253 --> 00:18:21,853 Speaker 2: we have a case with Smith and vol Terra where 320 00:18:21,893 --> 00:18:28,773 Speaker 2: the New Zealand Supreme Court has done something rather dramatically opposite. 321 00:18:29,013 --> 00:18:30,533 Speaker 2: Now I'd like you to explain it. 322 00:18:32,413 --> 00:18:34,773 Speaker 3: Well, okay, And actually I'm not even sure Smith is 323 00:18:34,773 --> 00:18:37,013 Speaker 3: the worst of the recent cases. I think that Voting 324 00:18:37,093 --> 00:18:43,813 Speaker 3: Rights Make It sixteen was pretty awful and so and 325 00:18:43,853 --> 00:18:47,173 Speaker 3: I think the Peter Ellis case was maybe just as bad. 326 00:18:47,813 --> 00:18:50,933 Speaker 3: But in Smith, effectively, and you have to remember, who 327 00:18:50,973 --> 00:18:54,613 Speaker 3: do you want making debatable social policy calls? And if 328 00:18:54,653 --> 00:18:56,333 Speaker 3: you think it's the judges, you have to ask who 329 00:18:56,573 --> 00:18:58,293 Speaker 3: where do they get the power to do this? And 330 00:18:58,333 --> 00:19:01,453 Speaker 3: if you're interested, they gave it to themselves. That's a problem. 331 00:19:01,733 --> 00:19:08,453 Speaker 3: But effectively, a Maori climate campaigner brought action against that 332 00:19:08,493 --> 00:19:10,893 Speaker 3: the seven biggest companies in New Zealand. There's six or seven, 333 00:19:10,933 --> 00:19:13,173 Speaker 3: I can't remember. And you know, he had a whole 334 00:19:13,213 --> 00:19:15,893 Speaker 3: bunch of causes of action public nuisance, negligence. I think 335 00:19:15,933 --> 00:19:19,213 Speaker 3: he was alleging a new tort something like, you know, 336 00:19:19,773 --> 00:19:22,093 Speaker 3: running the climate system. 337 00:19:22,173 --> 00:19:24,293 Speaker 2: I can do it for you, a level climate system 338 00:19:24,373 --> 00:19:25,053 Speaker 2: damage to it. 339 00:19:25,773 --> 00:19:29,133 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, And so basically you have to be clear. 340 00:19:29,173 --> 00:19:34,893 Speaker 3: So get you get in a normal common law system, 341 00:19:34,933 --> 00:19:37,213 Speaker 3: what happens is you issue your statement of claim and 342 00:19:37,253 --> 00:19:39,973 Speaker 3: then there's a statement of sense and if the statement 343 00:19:40,013 --> 00:19:41,973 Speaker 3: of claim doesn't show any cause of action, then the 344 00:19:42,013 --> 00:19:47,133 Speaker 3: defendants can ask for the proceedings to be struck out, 345 00:19:47,173 --> 00:19:51,573 Speaker 3: so basically dismissed. And that happened that first instance here, 346 00:19:51,573 --> 00:19:53,533 Speaker 3: and it also happened at the Court of Appeal, and 347 00:19:53,573 --> 00:19:55,933 Speaker 3: it would have happened at any time in history until 348 00:19:55,933 --> 00:19:59,813 Speaker 3: pretty much now because there was no cause of action. Right. 349 00:19:59,893 --> 00:20:02,493 Speaker 3: So what defenders of the judges will say is, well, 350 00:20:02,533 --> 00:20:04,653 Speaker 3: they haven't decided the case. They've just sent it back 351 00:20:04,733 --> 00:20:07,333 Speaker 3: the first instance, but they have made it plain that 352 00:20:07,373 --> 00:20:09,613 Speaker 3: the judges have a well to play in this. Now 353 00:20:09,933 --> 00:20:12,333 Speaker 3: it may be that in this case, after there's a 354 00:20:12,333 --> 00:20:15,573 Speaker 3: bit of pushback, the judges will decide that in this 355 00:20:15,613 --> 00:20:20,053 Speaker 3: particular instance, mister Smith doesn't win. But the problem is 356 00:20:20,093 --> 00:20:22,493 Speaker 3: they've now created a precedent where they've said, we have 357 00:20:22,573 --> 00:20:25,533 Speaker 3: a role, we can decide, you know, we have a 358 00:20:25,613 --> 00:20:28,893 Speaker 3: say in whether how the government responds to climate systems. 359 00:20:28,893 --> 00:20:31,733 Speaker 3: No you don't, No, you do not, and my view 360 00:20:31,933 --> 00:20:34,893 Speaker 3: and you can't. They've just created this for themselves. Now 361 00:20:35,293 --> 00:20:37,253 Speaker 3: you know, it might turn out, because of the pushback 362 00:20:37,333 --> 00:20:40,493 Speaker 3: in Smith, that it'll go to first instance and they'll lose. 363 00:20:40,733 --> 00:20:43,933 Speaker 3: Mister Smith will lose, but they have. You know, these 364 00:20:43,973 --> 00:20:47,013 Speaker 3: things happen incrementally, and the Supreme Court has said we 365 00:20:47,053 --> 00:20:49,773 Speaker 3: have a role in this even if you lose. And 366 00:20:49,813 --> 00:20:52,613 Speaker 3: so it's it's it's sophistry for the judges to pretend 367 00:20:52,613 --> 00:20:57,053 Speaker 3: that this was a small, little uh change. It was. 368 00:20:57,093 --> 00:21:00,613 Speaker 3: It was they have injected themselves into a pretty big 369 00:21:00,653 --> 00:21:03,893 Speaker 3: public policy issue. And you remember in New Zealand has 370 00:21:03,933 --> 00:21:07,053 Speaker 3: a mission's trading scheme. So it's not like you know, 371 00:21:07,613 --> 00:21:11,373 Speaker 3: I mean, I personally think they were overreacting to climate change. 372 00:21:11,373 --> 00:21:14,533 Speaker 3: I'm with Bjorn Lomberg who says the money is better 373 00:21:14,573 --> 00:21:17,733 Speaker 3: spent adapting. And you know net zero, knowing no country 374 00:21:17,813 --> 00:21:20,373 Speaker 3: is going to meet net zero in the next thirty years, 375 00:21:20,213 --> 00:21:22,693 Speaker 3: it's not possible. If you think that they're going to, 376 00:21:22,773 --> 00:21:25,053 Speaker 3: I think you're just factually wrong the factual claim. We 377 00:21:25,093 --> 00:21:28,213 Speaker 3: can debate it, or you can go and read Steve 378 00:21:28,253 --> 00:21:31,093 Speaker 3: Coonan's book. He worked for the Obama he was an 379 00:21:31,173 --> 00:21:35,093 Speaker 3: Obama science advisor. You know, his book's called Unsettled. And again, 380 00:21:36,253 --> 00:21:39,733 Speaker 3: it's not going to happen. And as long as China 381 00:21:39,773 --> 00:21:41,653 Speaker 3: is building a new power plant every week, and so 382 00:21:41,813 --> 00:21:44,613 Speaker 3: is India, what New Zealand I should do is is 383 00:21:44,693 --> 00:21:47,213 Speaker 3: it's zero. We could both go back to the Stone 384 00:21:47,213 --> 00:21:51,053 Speaker 3: Age tomorrow and it wouldn't make any difference. So, you know, 385 00:21:51,253 --> 00:21:53,773 Speaker 3: the sensible thing to do in a cost benefit analysis, 386 00:21:53,853 --> 00:21:56,453 Speaker 3: I think is to try to adapt. But you know, 387 00:21:56,933 --> 00:21:59,573 Speaker 3: and there's great questions about how bad it can be anyway, 388 00:21:59,933 --> 00:22:02,933 Speaker 3: But one thing I don't think any of us should 389 00:22:02,973 --> 00:22:06,213 Speaker 3: want is for unelected lawyers who happen to have been 390 00:22:06,253 --> 00:22:09,453 Speaker 3: pointed to the court to inject them into this debate. 391 00:22:09,533 --> 00:22:11,813 Speaker 3: That's what you vote for, people, And the thing about 392 00:22:11,893 --> 00:22:14,613 Speaker 3: voting is if you lose and at the next election, 393 00:22:14,773 --> 00:22:16,493 Speaker 3: you know, you have recourse to try to work a 394 00:22:16,533 --> 00:22:18,933 Speaker 3: little bit harder on Saturdays to campaign for your side 395 00:22:18,933 --> 00:22:22,493 Speaker 3: of politics. When the judges inject themselves, you have no recourse. 396 00:22:22,973 --> 00:22:25,453 Speaker 3: And that is why you're seeing so much bitterness in 397 00:22:25,453 --> 00:22:29,893 Speaker 3: the US where you have very powerful judges. I never 398 00:22:30,053 --> 00:22:33,133 Speaker 3: liked the idea of living in a juristocracy or a critarchy, 399 00:22:33,253 --> 00:22:36,653 Speaker 3: or however you want to describe rule by unelected judges. 400 00:22:36,933 --> 00:22:39,773 Speaker 3: It's you know, they don't get access to all information, 401 00:22:39,853 --> 00:22:42,533 Speaker 3: They have no idea how ordinary people think. You know, again, 402 00:22:42,573 --> 00:22:45,733 Speaker 3: I'll say it again, the top judges are cocooned. They 403 00:22:45,773 --> 00:22:47,813 Speaker 3: only ever hear people agree with them, except for maybe 404 00:22:47,813 --> 00:22:51,653 Speaker 3: their spouse. Their milieu is the top law firm, one 405 00:22:51,693 --> 00:22:54,573 Speaker 3: which is completely out of whack with most people's views. 406 00:22:55,173 --> 00:22:57,813 Speaker 3: And why would you want those sort of people. I mean, 407 00:22:57,853 --> 00:23:00,333 Speaker 3: I'm perfectly happy for really smart people to interpret and 408 00:23:00,373 --> 00:23:02,893 Speaker 3: apply the law. But I don't care what they think 409 00:23:02,933 --> 00:23:05,533 Speaker 3: about climate change, and I don't care what they think 410 00:23:05,573 --> 00:23:08,133 Speaker 3: about what age you should vote, and I really don't 411 00:23:08,133 --> 00:23:11,213 Speaker 3: care hear what they think about whether some you know, 412 00:23:11,333 --> 00:23:14,933 Speaker 3: odd Mallori idea to be injected into the into the 413 00:23:14,973 --> 00:23:18,253 Speaker 3: common law system as they did in Elis. And keep 414 00:23:18,253 --> 00:23:20,733 Speaker 3: asking yourself, well, who gave these people the power to 415 00:23:20,773 --> 00:23:22,253 Speaker 3: do this? And I don't know what the answer is. 416 00:23:22,293 --> 00:23:26,293 Speaker 2: It seems to You're correct, I've given it to themselves. 417 00:23:26,613 --> 00:23:31,773 Speaker 2: But it didn't start here, in my humble opinion, it 418 00:23:31,853 --> 00:23:35,253 Speaker 2: began in other parts of the world. But specifically, I'd 419 00:23:35,293 --> 00:23:37,893 Speaker 2: say the States. Now it could be wrong, but that's 420 00:23:37,933 --> 00:23:40,333 Speaker 2: where I That's where I'd narrow it down to. 421 00:23:41,373 --> 00:23:43,333 Speaker 3: Well, Canada too. I mean, the Americans have had a 422 00:23:43,333 --> 00:23:46,693 Speaker 3: written constition with the Bill of Rights. You know, people 423 00:23:46,733 --> 00:23:49,213 Speaker 3: forget that until if you looked at the end of 424 00:23:49,213 --> 00:23:51,893 Speaker 3: the Second World War, there were two democracies with the 425 00:23:51,893 --> 00:23:55,453 Speaker 3: Bill of Rights in the entire world, France and the US, 426 00:23:55,533 --> 00:23:57,773 Speaker 3: and the French one was not just dishable, you know, 427 00:23:57,933 --> 00:24:00,333 Speaker 3: is more aspirational. You couldn't strike down laws with it. 428 00:24:01,013 --> 00:24:03,733 Speaker 3: And so if you had to describe the last fifty 429 00:24:03,853 --> 00:24:09,133 Speaker 3: years of constitutional change in the democratic world in about 430 00:24:09,173 --> 00:24:10,773 Speaker 3: you know, fifty five or six words, I think the 431 00:24:10,773 --> 00:24:14,653 Speaker 3: answer would be the triumph of American constitutionalism, where you 432 00:24:16,653 --> 00:24:21,453 Speaker 3: either entrench or enact a statement of moral entitlements in 433 00:24:21,493 --> 00:24:24,853 Speaker 3: the language of rights. You know, people should remember that 434 00:24:25,213 --> 00:24:27,773 Speaker 3: you can rephrase every right the right to free speech 435 00:24:27,853 --> 00:24:30,573 Speaker 3: as a rule in the following circumstances, you will be 436 00:24:30,613 --> 00:24:32,933 Speaker 3: able to speak to your mind. But rules have no 437 00:24:33,053 --> 00:24:37,173 Speaker 3: emotional traction. Rights have this ability to give you this 438 00:24:37,333 --> 00:24:40,373 Speaker 3: free sum of excitement down your spine and you feel 439 00:24:40,413 --> 00:24:43,333 Speaker 3: the sense of entitlement, and you know. So it's an 440 00:24:43,413 --> 00:24:47,013 Speaker 3: incredibly potent tool. But what people forget is the right 441 00:24:47,053 --> 00:24:49,413 Speaker 3: to free speech. There are no rights that are absolute. 442 00:24:49,973 --> 00:24:52,653 Speaker 3: And even in the US, you can't say anything. You 443 00:24:52,693 --> 00:24:56,693 Speaker 3: can't counsel murder, you can't incite murder, you can't publish 444 00:24:56,773 --> 00:24:59,693 Speaker 3: child pornography. And so all a bill of rights does 445 00:24:59,813 --> 00:25:05,053 Speaker 3: is it takes some broad amorphous entitlement and it hands 446 00:25:05,053 --> 00:25:08,293 Speaker 3: over all the line drawing, all the specific lines draw 447 00:25:08,333 --> 00:25:11,613 Speaker 3: going to judges, and I preferred those lines to be 448 00:25:11,693 --> 00:25:16,053 Speaker 3: drawn by the elected parliament. Now, the Americans, nothing much 449 00:25:16,053 --> 00:25:17,613 Speaker 3: happened with their Bill of Rights for the first one 450 00:25:17,693 --> 00:25:21,493 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty years. Even in the nineteen twenties, it 451 00:25:21,613 --> 00:25:25,173 Speaker 3: was mostly state legislatures that were having laws struck down, 452 00:25:25,213 --> 00:25:28,373 Speaker 3: not the laws of Congress. You know, all the great 453 00:25:28,573 --> 00:25:31,693 Speaker 3: Oliver Rende Holmes cases. It's not till the nineteen sixties 454 00:25:31,693 --> 00:25:34,573 Speaker 3: really where the American Supreme Court starts to you know, 455 00:25:34,613 --> 00:25:36,333 Speaker 3: go crazy. But at least they had a warrant for 456 00:25:36,413 --> 00:25:39,813 Speaker 3: it was part of their written constitution. And then Canada 457 00:25:39,933 --> 00:25:42,773 Speaker 3: gets it in nineteen eighty two. And remember that's the 458 00:25:42,773 --> 00:25:45,453 Speaker 3: one that Jeffrey Palmer loved. And when he originally moved 459 00:25:45,493 --> 00:25:47,813 Speaker 3: to a Bill of Rights for New Zealand, he was 460 00:25:47,973 --> 00:25:51,093 Speaker 3: copying Canada. You know, when you go back and look 461 00:25:51,133 --> 00:25:53,453 Speaker 3: at the early drafts, he thought there was going to 462 00:25:53,493 --> 00:25:55,853 Speaker 3: be an entrenched bill of rights. But you know, it's 463 00:25:55,893 --> 00:25:59,293 Speaker 3: an unwritten constitution. It's laughable. That's why you had to 464 00:25:59,333 --> 00:26:02,533 Speaker 3: move to the statutory model, because you couldn't copy Canada's 465 00:26:02,893 --> 00:26:06,213 Speaker 3: but Canada, the Canadian judges are even worse than the 466 00:26:06,213 --> 00:26:09,053 Speaker 3: American judges. And I think you're right when these judges 467 00:26:09,093 --> 00:26:13,213 Speaker 3: go off the international conferences and the Americans and Canadians 468 00:26:13,253 --> 00:26:15,453 Speaker 3: are talking about how they decided who can marry or 469 00:26:15,453 --> 00:26:17,813 Speaker 3: whether you can have euthanasia, or you know, all these 470 00:26:17,813 --> 00:26:21,413 Speaker 3: big ticket social items and and you're from a jurisdiction 471 00:26:21,493 --> 00:26:23,213 Speaker 3: doesn't have it, and you said, oh, I decided the 472 00:26:23,253 --> 00:26:25,933 Speaker 3: tax case or there was this really interesting trust case. 473 00:26:26,533 --> 00:26:30,053 Speaker 3: You know, these these top judges are smart people, and 474 00:26:30,093 --> 00:26:34,093 Speaker 3: they overvalue their own ability abilities on the planet because 475 00:26:34,253 --> 00:26:37,013 Speaker 3: almost all of us do. And they start thinking, well, 476 00:26:37,013 --> 00:26:39,733 Speaker 3: why can't Audien you know, do this back in you know, 477 00:26:39,773 --> 00:26:43,893 Speaker 3: back in New Zealand and right now today the only 478 00:26:44,333 --> 00:26:47,973 Speaker 3: democracy really without a national Bill of rights Australia. But 479 00:26:47,973 --> 00:26:50,333 Speaker 3: the Australian judges don't like the fact that they don't 480 00:26:50,333 --> 00:26:52,813 Speaker 3: get to decide these kind of cases. So you're seeing 481 00:26:52,893 --> 00:26:55,853 Speaker 3: trends here too. I mean, who who wants to decide 482 00:26:55,853 --> 00:26:59,133 Speaker 3: some dry tax law case when you can be deciding 483 00:26:59,573 --> 00:27:04,093 Speaker 3: you know, te Tonga or you know, climate change or 484 00:27:04,613 --> 00:27:07,533 Speaker 3: you know what age people should vote. That's like that's invigorating, 485 00:27:07,573 --> 00:27:10,253 Speaker 3: that's exciting, that's something that really smart lawyers ought to 486 00:27:10,293 --> 00:27:13,693 Speaker 3: be doing. I'm being facetious here. And so they can't resist, 487 00:27:13,773 --> 00:27:15,533 Speaker 3: a lot of them can't resist. And so you have 488 00:27:15,573 --> 00:27:19,253 Speaker 3: to be very careful when you make judicial appointments. And 489 00:27:19,293 --> 00:27:22,373 Speaker 3: the National Party wasn't careful. They appointed people who are 490 00:27:22,653 --> 00:27:25,093 Speaker 3: in some ways worse than the Labor Party appointees over 491 00:27:25,133 --> 00:27:27,893 Speaker 3: there in New Zealand. And we've done the same in Australia. 492 00:27:28,293 --> 00:27:31,213 Speaker 3: You know, it took fifty years for the Republicans in 493 00:27:31,253 --> 00:27:34,293 Speaker 3: the US to figure out a way in which you 494 00:27:34,373 --> 00:27:38,613 Speaker 3: might be able to appoint interpretively conservative judges. And you know, 495 00:27:38,653 --> 00:27:41,533 Speaker 3: it was basically Trump got pushed into it because people 496 00:27:41,573 --> 00:27:44,133 Speaker 3: didn't trust his judicial picks. He said, We're going to 497 00:27:44,333 --> 00:27:47,093 Speaker 3: publish a list and I will only appoint from that list. 498 00:27:47,293 --> 00:27:49,813 Speaker 3: And that's the way to do it, because then if 499 00:27:49,813 --> 00:27:51,533 Speaker 3: someone's name is on the list and you go look 500 00:27:51,573 --> 00:27:54,133 Speaker 3: at her, you'd be crazy to appoint her. There's a 501 00:27:54,173 --> 00:27:57,813 Speaker 3: real pushback on candidates one seven, nine, because we think 502 00:27:58,093 --> 00:28:03,013 Speaker 3: those aren't interpretively conservative people, you know, and so you'd 503 00:28:03,053 --> 00:28:05,653 Speaker 3: get feedback that way. And when it comes to the 504 00:28:05,653 --> 00:28:09,213 Speaker 3: appointment time, you're actually going to much more likely to 505 00:28:09,293 --> 00:28:13,173 Speaker 3: increase your odds of appointing. And when I say interpretively conservative, 506 00:28:13,173 --> 00:28:17,213 Speaker 3: I don't mean party politics. I mean they don't feel 507 00:28:17,293 --> 00:28:19,453 Speaker 3: that they are in the job of making the law. 508 00:28:19,933 --> 00:28:23,213 Speaker 3: They're in the job of so they're interpretively they're interpreting 509 00:28:23,213 --> 00:28:25,853 Speaker 3: the law based on, you know, what was the intended 510 00:28:25,933 --> 00:28:28,613 Speaker 3: meaning of the people who legitimately have the power to 511 00:28:28,613 --> 00:28:32,213 Speaker 3: make the law, the democratic branches, what you know. So 512 00:28:32,333 --> 00:28:34,893 Speaker 3: if I were the kind of judge I would like 513 00:28:35,693 --> 00:28:39,413 Speaker 3: they're trying to be honestly deciding what the lawmakers intended, 514 00:28:39,613 --> 00:28:42,213 Speaker 3: and if that was a labor government, then you interpret 515 00:28:42,213 --> 00:28:45,093 Speaker 3: it that way. But what you don't do is say, well, 516 00:28:45,133 --> 00:28:47,733 Speaker 3: you know, my job is to be the guardians keep pace. 517 00:28:48,093 --> 00:28:50,253 Speaker 3: What did Lord Crook want to say? Our job is 518 00:28:50,293 --> 00:28:53,893 Speaker 3: to keep pace with changing social values and we're here 519 00:28:53,933 --> 00:28:57,013 Speaker 3: to put our fingers on the pulse of societal values. 520 00:28:57,013 --> 00:29:00,133 Speaker 3: I'll say it again. The New Zealand Supreme Court wouldn't 521 00:29:00,173 --> 00:29:04,733 Speaker 3: have a clue what the societal values of New Zealand are. 522 00:29:04,973 --> 00:29:07,733 Speaker 3: They might have a pretty good grasp of what the 523 00:29:08,413 --> 00:29:11,853 Speaker 3: values of the top Auckland law firms were, or maybe 524 00:29:12,173 --> 00:29:15,733 Speaker 3: you know some of the big Green bureaucracies in Wellington. 525 00:29:16,053 --> 00:29:18,493 Speaker 3: That's it. They have no clue about anything else. 526 00:29:18,613 --> 00:29:21,253 Speaker 2: You must be talking about the Reserve Bank. 527 00:29:22,533 --> 00:29:24,653 Speaker 3: Well, the Reserve Bank too, I mean, because you can 528 00:29:24,693 --> 00:29:27,373 Speaker 3: see again we saw this in the Voice debate over here. 529 00:29:27,493 --> 00:29:31,813 Speaker 3: All the elite branches of government and the corporations and 530 00:29:31,893 --> 00:29:35,373 Speaker 3: the universities were almost one hundred percent in favor of 531 00:29:35,413 --> 00:29:39,733 Speaker 3: this constitutional amendment and it lost in every seat except 532 00:29:39,893 --> 00:29:43,693 Speaker 3: the Green seats and the Act. I mean, they were 533 00:29:43,813 --> 00:29:47,213 Speaker 3: so out of keeping with the average voter, and they're 534 00:29:47,253 --> 00:29:49,373 Speaker 3: not even embarrassed about it. They don't even go, okay, 535 00:29:49,413 --> 00:29:53,093 Speaker 3: I wonder why my views are so And what they 536 00:29:53,173 --> 00:29:55,213 Speaker 3: think of themselves is well, I've got a you know, 537 00:29:55,213 --> 00:29:57,733 Speaker 3: I've got a higher degree, and I'm a better person 538 00:29:57,733 --> 00:30:01,293 Speaker 3: than these are moral reprobates. I don't even know how. 539 00:30:01,333 --> 00:30:04,173 Speaker 3: I don't even like buying my coffee from these moral reprobates. 540 00:30:04,173 --> 00:30:06,493 Speaker 3: I'm being a little facetious, but you know that's the 541 00:30:06,613 --> 00:30:10,173 Speaker 3: view that somehow they're morally substandard because they disagree with you. 542 00:30:10,893 --> 00:30:14,093 Speaker 3: And it's a real problem. And that's why the good 543 00:30:14,093 --> 00:30:18,693 Speaker 3: thing about parliamentary sovereignty like New Zealand is if the 544 00:30:18,733 --> 00:30:21,093 Speaker 3: parliament doesn't like what the judges are doing, it can 545 00:30:21,133 --> 00:30:23,213 Speaker 3: pass a statute and put them back in their place. 546 00:30:23,293 --> 00:30:26,773 Speaker 3: And I look for Judith Collins and you know, the 547 00:30:26,853 --> 00:30:29,093 Speaker 3: two small parties in this coalition because they don't really 548 00:30:29,133 --> 00:30:32,333 Speaker 3: trust the National Party on this. But you know, they 549 00:30:32,333 --> 00:30:36,293 Speaker 3: can just pass a statute and say there is no 550 00:30:36,453 --> 00:30:40,653 Speaker 3: rule for the judges or this this, this supposed new 551 00:30:40,933 --> 00:30:44,613 Speaker 3: tourt does not exist. And you know they haven't responded 552 00:30:44,653 --> 00:30:47,053 Speaker 3: to the Court on the voting age, so that's good. 553 00:30:47,093 --> 00:30:49,333 Speaker 3: I don't think either side a part of Parliament in 554 00:30:49,573 --> 00:30:52,453 Speaker 3: New Zealand's going to take on the singly entrenched the 555 00:30:52,573 --> 00:30:55,173 Speaker 3: voting age. So in a way, that was just virtue 556 00:30:55,213 --> 00:31:00,693 Speaker 3: signal the Greenswood Yes, but I mean, you know I 557 00:31:00,853 --> 00:31:03,933 Speaker 3: I so I'd like to see some vigorous response by 558 00:31:03,973 --> 00:31:07,093 Speaker 3: the new governments because they must realize they have a 559 00:31:07,133 --> 00:31:10,453 Speaker 3: problem with imperial judiciary. It's not just me. There's some 560 00:31:10,533 --> 00:31:13,933 Speaker 3: top lawyers in New Zealand who are pointing this out. 561 00:31:14,093 --> 00:31:18,293 Speaker 3: You know, it's a diminishing band of interpretively conservative lawyers, 562 00:31:18,293 --> 00:31:19,733 Speaker 3: but there's some really excellent will. 563 00:31:19,653 --> 00:31:24,013 Speaker 2: Well, let me come back to will return to the 564 00:31:24,053 --> 00:31:27,053 Speaker 2: global picture before we finish, but let me bring it 565 00:31:27,093 --> 00:31:30,453 Speaker 2: back to this current situation. What I'd like you to 566 00:31:30,493 --> 00:31:35,173 Speaker 2: explain is what the Supreme Court actually did. And we 567 00:31:35,253 --> 00:31:37,893 Speaker 2: know that for instance, because you've discussed it already. But 568 00:31:37,973 --> 00:31:40,813 Speaker 2: the claim comprised three causes of action, public nuisance and 569 00:31:40,853 --> 00:31:44,733 Speaker 2: negligence being the first two, and the court dumped those, 570 00:31:44,933 --> 00:31:49,493 Speaker 2: they rejected them, but they stayed with without ruling on it, 571 00:31:49,653 --> 00:31:54,293 Speaker 2: the novel climate system damage taught. And the reason we're talking, 572 00:31:54,333 --> 00:31:56,653 Speaker 2: of course, is because just recently a couple of weeks back, 573 00:31:57,213 --> 00:32:01,653 Speaker 2: they ruled in favor of Smith being able to proceed. 574 00:32:02,213 --> 00:32:03,533 Speaker 2: Where does it go from there? 575 00:32:04,333 --> 00:32:07,133 Speaker 3: So what happens again? I'll say this, If you sue somebody, 576 00:32:07,213 --> 00:32:09,093 Speaker 3: you issue a stepment, a claim and say here's why 577 00:32:09,133 --> 00:32:11,933 Speaker 3: you owe me money, here's the facts, here's the law, 578 00:32:11,973 --> 00:32:14,013 Speaker 3: and then they issue a statement of defense and they 579 00:32:14,053 --> 00:32:16,453 Speaker 3: might say, well, you've got the facts wrong or you've 580 00:32:16,453 --> 00:32:20,733 Speaker 3: got you've got the law wrong. And normally in our system, 581 00:32:20,853 --> 00:32:24,853 Speaker 3: unlike the continental system in Europe, you have about four 582 00:32:24,933 --> 00:32:27,733 Speaker 3: or five years where you know, there's discovery and people 583 00:32:27,813 --> 00:32:30,773 Speaker 3: look into the facts and you have X party motions 584 00:32:30,813 --> 00:32:32,933 Speaker 3: and it's all designed to have your day in court. 585 00:32:33,333 --> 00:32:37,013 Speaker 3: That's the common law system, and so What happened sometimes 586 00:32:37,053 --> 00:32:38,933 Speaker 3: is you have the statement of claim, statement of defense 587 00:32:39,493 --> 00:32:42,613 Speaker 3: and one of the parties might say, well, the defendants 588 00:32:42,653 --> 00:32:44,813 Speaker 3: might say, well, even if everything you allege and the 589 00:32:44,813 --> 00:32:47,413 Speaker 3: statement of claim is true, you have no basis to 590 00:32:47,413 --> 00:32:50,093 Speaker 3: assue me. There's no cause of action, so strike out 591 00:32:50,093 --> 00:32:54,213 Speaker 3: the pleadings. And you know that happens, and often it's true. 592 00:32:54,213 --> 00:32:57,333 Speaker 3: So even if everything mister Smith said, there's no basis 593 00:32:57,333 --> 00:33:00,693 Speaker 3: for the judges to involve themselves in this he and 594 00:33:00,853 --> 00:33:03,173 Speaker 3: so the defendants won it first instance, and they wanted 595 00:33:03,173 --> 00:33:05,853 Speaker 3: the Court of appeal and it was only to all 596 00:33:05,893 --> 00:33:08,693 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court is said in a way, is well, 597 00:33:09,213 --> 00:33:12,693 Speaker 3: you can proceed mister Smith with this new tort claim 598 00:33:12,733 --> 00:33:16,373 Speaker 3: of yours. And again they're going to characterize this as well, 599 00:33:16,373 --> 00:33:18,733 Speaker 3: it's no big deal because you know he'll proceed with 600 00:33:18,773 --> 00:33:21,413 Speaker 3: his claim and he still might lose. He still might lose, 601 00:33:22,133 --> 00:33:24,093 Speaker 3: And so what are you worried about? And what you're 602 00:33:24,093 --> 00:33:27,293 Speaker 3: worried about is they have created they have injected themselves 603 00:33:27,373 --> 00:33:32,133 Speaker 3: into the system. I mean, you know, a new tortive 604 00:33:32,213 --> 00:33:35,213 Speaker 3: damage to the climate system is effectively saying, if the 605 00:33:35,293 --> 00:33:40,133 Speaker 3: judges don't like what the government's doing, then these these 606 00:33:40,253 --> 00:33:43,573 Speaker 3: interested parties can sue and get damages. Well, you know 607 00:33:43,613 --> 00:33:45,413 Speaker 3: where did that come from? So firstly, we need a 608 00:33:45,453 --> 00:33:50,373 Speaker 3: new statute that just says no immediate new statute. And 609 00:33:51,093 --> 00:33:53,493 Speaker 3: what normally happens is if the government makes it plain 610 00:33:53,613 --> 00:33:55,973 Speaker 3: that they're going to take on the judges the government. 611 00:33:56,013 --> 00:33:59,533 Speaker 3: You know, in the democracy, if you get a fight 612 00:33:59,573 --> 00:34:02,613 Speaker 3: between the elected branches and the judges, the elected branches win. 613 00:34:03,933 --> 00:34:06,173 Speaker 3: There was a judge in the UK said we're you know, 614 00:34:06,213 --> 00:34:09,373 Speaker 3: after the two Miller cases, where I think they I 615 00:34:09,413 --> 00:34:12,293 Speaker 3: think the judges in those two Miller cases surrounding Brexit 616 00:34:13,053 --> 00:34:17,893 Speaker 3: really bent the law about parroguing parliament and about the progative. 617 00:34:17,933 --> 00:34:21,333 Speaker 3: I think they were pretty activist decisions obviously to try 618 00:34:21,373 --> 00:34:24,173 Speaker 3: to help the remainer case. And you know, there was 619 00:34:24,213 --> 00:34:26,533 Speaker 3: a backlash and if Boris had wanted to take on 620 00:34:26,573 --> 00:34:30,853 Speaker 3: the judges, he would have won because at the end 621 00:34:30,893 --> 00:34:32,973 Speaker 3: of the day, in the democracy, most people are going 622 00:34:32,973 --> 00:34:35,893 Speaker 3: to favor the democratic branches of government. So I think 623 00:34:35,893 --> 00:34:39,453 Speaker 3: they've overreached and I'd like to see a vigorous response 624 00:34:39,493 --> 00:34:40,573 Speaker 3: from this new government. 625 00:34:41,773 --> 00:34:44,213 Speaker 2: What would that response. What could now that this is 626 00:34:44,773 --> 00:34:47,573 Speaker 2: in the position that it is, could they intervene with 627 00:34:47,613 --> 00:34:48,373 Speaker 2: a statute. 628 00:34:48,853 --> 00:34:51,253 Speaker 3: Sure, you can always intervene with the statute in the 629 00:34:52,773 --> 00:34:54,733 Speaker 3: just pass the statute to say there is no toort 630 00:34:54,933 --> 00:35:00,213 Speaker 3: of damage to the climate system, because the statute always 631 00:35:00,213 --> 00:35:01,173 Speaker 3: beats the common law. 632 00:35:01,693 --> 00:35:03,413 Speaker 2: And if you were going to if you were going 633 00:35:03,453 --> 00:35:05,973 Speaker 2: to take if you're going to make good with a 634 00:35:06,013 --> 00:35:09,573 Speaker 2: statute that said there's no damage the climate system. 635 00:35:09,973 --> 00:35:12,773 Speaker 3: You know, no, there's no tort where you can go 636 00:35:12,853 --> 00:35:16,533 Speaker 3: to the courts and claim damage to me and that 637 00:35:16,533 --> 00:35:19,373 Speaker 3: would be the end of that. Or or you know, 638 00:35:19,453 --> 00:35:21,853 Speaker 3: you could pass a statute to say that t Kangar 639 00:35:21,933 --> 00:35:23,933 Speaker 3: whatever that means, is not part of the common law 640 00:35:24,533 --> 00:35:27,333 Speaker 3: and just overrule what the judges did in Elis And 641 00:35:27,373 --> 00:35:30,173 Speaker 3: they've effectively completely ignored the judges. And to make it 642 00:35:30,213 --> 00:35:33,253 Speaker 3: sixteen case where the judges said, you know, we declare 643 00:35:33,293 --> 00:35:35,973 Speaker 3: people's timeless right to vote at the age of sixteen, 644 00:35:36,653 --> 00:35:39,013 Speaker 3: you know, one of the worst reasons decisions I have 645 00:35:39,093 --> 00:35:41,613 Speaker 3: ever read. And I've read a lot of decisions and 646 00:35:41,693 --> 00:35:44,573 Speaker 3: a lot of them bad in my view. But that's 647 00:35:45,093 --> 00:35:48,053 Speaker 3: case from two years ago, where you know, the judges 648 00:35:48,053 --> 00:35:51,013 Speaker 3: look at your Bill of rights, have an explicit section 649 00:35:51,093 --> 00:35:53,533 Speaker 3: in it's saying I think it's twelve saying you get 650 00:35:53,573 --> 00:35:56,333 Speaker 3: the right to vote in eighteen and over, and then 651 00:35:56,373 --> 00:36:00,013 Speaker 3: Section nineteen is an antidiscrimination clause, which they amend it 652 00:36:00,133 --> 00:36:04,773 Speaker 3: after afterwards. And when they amended it, they explicitly pointed 653 00:36:04,853 --> 00:36:07,413 Speaker 3: to the age discrimination. They didn't change the voting age, 654 00:36:07,853 --> 00:36:10,093 Speaker 3: and there's some other statute that says, you know, age 655 00:36:10,173 --> 00:36:13,053 Speaker 3: discrimination kicks in at sixteen. And the judges effectively said 656 00:36:13,653 --> 00:36:18,613 Speaker 3: the vague MorphOS general claim trumps this explicit claim. And 657 00:36:18,733 --> 00:36:22,413 Speaker 3: it's laughable really when you think about it. If they 658 00:36:22,493 --> 00:36:24,493 Speaker 3: if they wanted to change the voting age, they would 659 00:36:24,493 --> 00:36:27,533 Speaker 3: have changed the voting age. And they talk about these 660 00:36:27,613 --> 00:36:30,493 Speaker 3: timeless fundamental right to vote at sixteen, but where does 661 00:36:30,493 --> 00:36:32,893 Speaker 3: it come from. It comes from an act of Parliament. 662 00:36:33,493 --> 00:36:36,933 Speaker 3: You know, if the Parliament had decided that age discrimination 663 00:36:37,053 --> 00:36:40,373 Speaker 3: kicks in at seventeen, then your timeless fundamental right would 664 00:36:40,373 --> 00:36:43,093 Speaker 3: be seventeen. And if they decided it was eighteen, then 665 00:36:43,133 --> 00:36:46,413 Speaker 3: they then the plaintiffs would have lost the case. I mean, 666 00:36:46,613 --> 00:36:48,893 Speaker 3: and I'm just picking out a few of them. It 667 00:36:48,933 --> 00:36:52,493 Speaker 3: was just an awful decision and four to one all 668 00:36:52,613 --> 00:36:57,253 Speaker 3: the National Party appointed judges just they just get themselves 669 00:36:58,213 --> 00:37:02,533 Speaker 3: embroiled in this pontificating about what timeless rights are without 670 00:37:02,613 --> 00:37:05,133 Speaker 3: stepping back and saying, you know, is this really a 671 00:37:05,173 --> 00:37:09,813 Speaker 3: fundamental right? You know, picking the age which discrimination kicks 672 00:37:09,813 --> 00:37:12,973 Speaker 3: in is no less and no more arbitrary than picking 673 00:37:13,013 --> 00:37:15,413 Speaker 3: the age to vote. You know, eighteen's an arbitrary number. 674 00:37:16,173 --> 00:37:19,093 Speaker 3: Why should the judges pick the arbitrary number? And what's 675 00:37:19,133 --> 00:37:22,173 Speaker 3: wrong with eighteen? You know? So it's a terrible decision. Now, 676 00:37:22,333 --> 00:37:25,093 Speaker 3: the good thing is it's been completely ignored because in 677 00:37:25,213 --> 00:37:28,653 Speaker 3: New Zealand, the judges don't get the strikedown legislation. What 678 00:37:28,693 --> 00:37:31,173 Speaker 3: they do is they stand up on their pedestal and 679 00:37:31,213 --> 00:37:34,293 Speaker 3: they issue this declaration to the world that you know, 680 00:37:34,333 --> 00:37:37,373 Speaker 3: people's timeless rights have been infringed and they expect Parliament 681 00:37:37,373 --> 00:37:40,493 Speaker 3: to do something. But if Parliament just says, effectively, cuss off, 682 00:37:40,493 --> 00:37:42,893 Speaker 3: we're not doing anything, and then nothing happens. So the 683 00:37:42,973 --> 00:37:44,933 Speaker 3: voting age isn't changing in New Zealand, and that's a 684 00:37:44,933 --> 00:37:45,773 Speaker 3: good thing in my view. 685 00:37:45,973 --> 00:37:50,333 Speaker 2: You were you were here when we established the Supreme Court. 686 00:37:50,333 --> 00:37:50,853 Speaker 2: Will you're not. 687 00:37:52,573 --> 00:37:55,093 Speaker 3: Remind me it's about it's been about twenty years, hasn't. 688 00:37:54,853 --> 00:38:00,413 Speaker 2: It twenty I was just you know, I'd say it's 689 00:38:00,413 --> 00:38:04,453 Speaker 2: about it's about this time twenty years ago, I think. 690 00:38:04,853 --> 00:38:07,733 Speaker 3: I mean, oddly enough, they issued the Smith case right 691 00:38:07,733 --> 00:38:11,653 Speaker 3: around the twenty of anniversary. I was probably just just 692 00:38:11,693 --> 00:38:14,733 Speaker 3: about to leave. I left in June of twenty four 693 00:38:15,413 --> 00:38:17,533 Speaker 3: to spend half a year in Canada and then move 694 00:38:17,613 --> 00:38:21,693 Speaker 3: to so I think it just got founded as I 695 00:38:21,733 --> 00:38:26,853 Speaker 3: was leaving. I'm not a big fan of Supreme courts 696 00:38:26,853 --> 00:38:30,533 Speaker 3: because you have too many accouterments and trappings of you know, 697 00:38:31,533 --> 00:38:34,413 Speaker 3: judicial power. I'd like to keep things modest. I wouldn't 698 00:38:34,453 --> 00:38:37,133 Speaker 3: let the judges have too many law clerks that sort 699 00:38:37,213 --> 00:38:39,173 Speaker 3: of thing. They start to believe their own publicity if 700 00:38:39,173 --> 00:38:39,893 Speaker 3: you're not careful. 701 00:38:41,053 --> 00:38:45,413 Speaker 2: Interesting now you talked about you talked about a list, 702 00:38:45,573 --> 00:38:49,333 Speaker 2: drawing up a list of prospects for the Supreme Court, 703 00:38:49,333 --> 00:38:53,853 Speaker 2: for instance, and publicizing that at an election time, oh 704 00:38:53,973 --> 00:38:54,253 Speaker 2: four or. 705 00:38:54,253 --> 00:38:56,093 Speaker 3: Five months in front of an election, you say, if 706 00:38:56,133 --> 00:39:00,013 Speaker 3: we get elected there there, this is the list from 707 00:39:00,053 --> 00:39:02,773 Speaker 3: which we will pick our top judges. 708 00:39:03,413 --> 00:39:06,733 Speaker 2: But see, people here wouldn't really know too much about 709 00:39:06,813 --> 00:39:10,333 Speaker 2: the about the judges that they were talking about. Probably 710 00:39:10,413 --> 00:39:13,013 Speaker 2: probably you know, some people in the US don't know either. 711 00:39:13,133 --> 00:39:15,893 Speaker 3: But you know who does know his lawyers, and lawyers 712 00:39:15,973 --> 00:39:18,973 Speaker 3: can say, wow, don't put don't put him on the court. 713 00:39:19,413 --> 00:39:21,693 Speaker 3: You think he's interpretively conservative. I can tell you he's not, 714 00:39:22,933 --> 00:39:24,613 Speaker 3: because right now what they do is they have a 715 00:39:24,613 --> 00:39:27,973 Speaker 3: little sounding The Attorney General talks to maybe a few judges, 716 00:39:28,013 --> 00:39:30,893 Speaker 3: a few ex lawyers. You know, over here in Australia 717 00:39:31,173 --> 00:39:36,853 Speaker 3: we picked the Conservatives. The Liberal Party put the wife 718 00:39:36,973 --> 00:39:39,493 Speaker 3: of the retiring High Court of Australia judge on the bench. 719 00:39:39,533 --> 00:39:42,973 Speaker 3: So in other words, he retired and the wife replaced him. 720 00:39:42,973 --> 00:39:44,893 Speaker 3: Now that would never happen if you published the list. 721 00:39:45,013 --> 00:39:47,893 Speaker 3: It's an embarrassment. And she turned out to be she's 722 00:39:47,893 --> 00:39:49,973 Speaker 3: still on the High Court. She turned out to be 723 00:39:50,293 --> 00:39:53,893 Speaker 3: not even remotely interpretively conservative. So you're you know, you 724 00:39:54,053 --> 00:39:56,493 Speaker 3: have to wonder what goes on at these cabinet meetings, 725 00:39:57,213 --> 00:39:59,213 Speaker 3: especially I'm talking about the right side of policy. Doesn't 726 00:39:59,213 --> 00:40:00,973 Speaker 3: anyone say, you know, wouldn't it be nice to get 727 00:40:01,013 --> 00:40:05,493 Speaker 3: an interpretively conservative judge? Or you know, your fear if 728 00:40:05,533 --> 00:40:08,733 Speaker 3: they say, oh, you know, we've got three men and 729 00:40:08,773 --> 00:40:11,773 Speaker 3: two women and we need to balance the reproductive organ 730 00:40:12,813 --> 00:40:17,373 Speaker 3: reproductive organs sort of statistical balance. You know, you know 731 00:40:17,533 --> 00:40:20,733 Speaker 3: that they're sucked into this identity politics instead of saying, 732 00:40:21,053 --> 00:40:26,653 Speaker 3: who's the best interpretively conservative person we can find. They 733 00:40:26,733 --> 00:40:29,213 Speaker 3: start listening to these twenty year old advisors, and they 734 00:40:30,013 --> 00:40:32,453 Speaker 3: make and I'm talking about the right side of politics, 735 00:40:32,573 --> 00:40:37,773 Speaker 3: the conservative side of politics. Their history is making judicial 736 00:40:37,893 --> 00:40:42,773 Speaker 3: pixis in some ways worse than labor. I don't say 737 00:40:42,813 --> 00:40:46,253 Speaker 3: that lightly, but you get a bit more interpretive conservatives 738 00:40:46,293 --> 00:40:49,293 Speaker 3: in these days from labor that you're getting from the 739 00:40:49,413 --> 00:40:51,693 Speaker 3: right to So they just don't take it seriously. They 740 00:40:51,733 --> 00:40:54,933 Speaker 3: don't worry about it. And hence you get three out 741 00:40:54,973 --> 00:40:58,613 Speaker 3: of the six New Zealand top Court judges who are 742 00:40:58,893 --> 00:41:03,373 Speaker 3: if anything, more activist, more inclined to go down the 743 00:41:03,413 --> 00:41:07,533 Speaker 3: path of judicial use their patient than the labor appointees. 744 00:41:08,373 --> 00:41:10,053 Speaker 3: And how can that be? You way to ask yourself, 745 00:41:10,093 --> 00:41:13,213 Speaker 3: how is this possible? Well, that's a good question. But 746 00:41:13,373 --> 00:41:15,813 Speaker 3: maybe they'll start taking it a bit seriously this new government. 747 00:41:16,373 --> 00:41:20,693 Speaker 2: Well let me quote you something from today. Coincidentally this morning. 748 00:41:22,093 --> 00:41:25,453 Speaker 2: One of the more underappreciated recent trends in American law 749 00:41:25,533 --> 00:41:29,173 Speaker 2: and politics, obscured by a few high high profile conservative 750 00:41:29,253 --> 00:41:32,293 Speaker 2: victories at the Supreme Court and thus noticed by a 751 00:41:32,373 --> 00:41:36,173 Speaker 2: few other than died in the world legal conservatives, is 752 00:41:36,293 --> 00:41:39,653 Speaker 2: that former President Donald Trump's three picks for the High 753 00:41:39,733 --> 00:41:45,733 Speaker 2: Court the Supreme Court are soft and undependable. The truth 754 00:41:45,893 --> 00:41:50,093 Speaker 2: is that none of the Trump era triumvirate of Gorsich, Cavanagh, 755 00:41:50,213 --> 00:41:53,453 Speaker 2: and the Coney Barrett can hold a candle to their 756 00:41:53,573 --> 00:41:58,413 Speaker 2: too reliably conservative senior colleagues Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. 757 00:42:00,293 --> 00:42:01,773 Speaker 3: And the author. 758 00:42:03,173 --> 00:42:07,293 Speaker 2: His purpose is to suggest that if Trump secures the 759 00:42:07,333 --> 00:42:10,133 Speaker 2: second presidential two and then conservatives must ensure that he 760 00:42:10,253 --> 00:42:14,493 Speaker 2: makes better Supreme Court selections, as his own picks now 761 00:42:14,533 --> 00:42:19,053 Speaker 2: play a role in determining whether such a term even materializes. 762 00:42:20,093 --> 00:42:22,013 Speaker 3: So what I say to that is there's some truth 763 00:42:22,093 --> 00:42:25,413 Speaker 3: to it, but the Trump techs are better than any 764 00:42:25,573 --> 00:42:27,813 Speaker 3: conservative text anywhere else in the world. So we've got 765 00:42:27,893 --> 00:42:31,053 Speaker 3: to put some contact to this. The worst of the 766 00:42:31,373 --> 00:42:34,453 Speaker 3: Republican appointed judges right now is not a Trump the line. 767 00:42:34,493 --> 00:42:38,773 Speaker 3: It's the Chief Justice Roberts. He sold, you know, the 768 00:42:38,853 --> 00:42:45,813 Speaker 3: Obamacare he is. He seems to be the kind of 769 00:42:45,893 --> 00:42:49,773 Speaker 3: judge he just wants to brook compromise votes on everything. 770 00:42:50,373 --> 00:42:52,493 Speaker 3: Gorsic has been good on a lot of things. He's 771 00:42:52,533 --> 00:42:56,413 Speaker 3: really good on the Chevron doctrine. I think that's a 772 00:42:56,453 --> 00:43:02,373 Speaker 3: bit harsh on gorsic Amy, Conum Barrett and the guy 773 00:43:02,413 --> 00:43:05,693 Speaker 3: who was accused of sexual assault, but clearly from you know, 774 00:43:05,773 --> 00:43:07,533 Speaker 3: the age of fifteen when he was at high school. 775 00:43:09,413 --> 00:43:11,613 Speaker 3: You know, they're weak on some things. But if you 776 00:43:11,653 --> 00:43:14,293 Speaker 3: put them in Australia and New Zealand, they'd be accused 777 00:43:14,333 --> 00:43:16,613 Speaker 3: of being the most hard right judges of all time. 778 00:43:17,253 --> 00:43:20,853 Speaker 3: So again everything's relative, but it's true if you're holding 779 00:43:20,933 --> 00:43:29,933 Speaker 3: them up to Clarence Thomas or Alito, yes they haven't 780 00:43:29,973 --> 00:43:34,053 Speaker 3: been as they haven't been as rock solid. But again 781 00:43:35,253 --> 00:43:38,453 Speaker 3: it was easier to make picks twenty years ago because 782 00:43:39,173 --> 00:43:44,253 Speaker 3: the legal academy and the lawyers have moved considerably left. 783 00:43:44,893 --> 00:43:47,933 Speaker 3: So if you're trying to defend the appointments by conservative 784 00:43:47,973 --> 00:43:51,813 Speaker 3: political parties, you know, the applausible partial defense is to 785 00:43:51,893 --> 00:43:56,773 Speaker 3: say it's really hard to find interpretively conservative lawyers. And 786 00:43:56,853 --> 00:44:00,413 Speaker 3: that's true because they've spent their entire law school life 787 00:44:00,533 --> 00:44:02,973 Speaker 3: learning about social justice and being told that you know, 788 00:44:03,173 --> 00:44:06,973 Speaker 3: deep down, the democratic branches are flawed, and just get 789 00:44:06,973 --> 00:44:09,333 Speaker 3: a couple of really well educated lawyers in the room 790 00:44:09,373 --> 00:44:11,653 Speaker 3: and they're you know, who should let them make the decisions. 791 00:44:12,253 --> 00:44:14,373 Speaker 3: And sure, some people can stand up to that, but 792 00:44:14,493 --> 00:44:17,173 Speaker 3: the pool is shrinking. I mean, I always wonder what 793 00:44:17,293 --> 00:44:19,933 Speaker 3: do these right of center politicians think, Why aren't they 794 00:44:20,013 --> 00:44:21,853 Speaker 3: fixing the law schools in the universities. 795 00:44:23,453 --> 00:44:25,173 Speaker 2: So why are they doing it here? 796 00:44:26,053 --> 00:44:29,453 Speaker 3: I don't know, but you know it's a there are 797 00:44:29,533 --> 00:44:31,133 Speaker 3: a few of us still aren so over here in 798 00:44:31,213 --> 00:44:33,813 Speaker 3: New Zealand, as I said, there were thirty six law 799 00:44:33,853 --> 00:44:37,293 Speaker 3: schools is something like that. And in this Voice referendum, 800 00:44:38,413 --> 00:44:40,693 Speaker 3: so you can imagine how many law professors. 801 00:44:40,373 --> 00:44:43,253 Speaker 2: That mean, sorry, sorry for your reputation. 802 00:44:43,373 --> 00:44:46,493 Speaker 3: You mean in Australia, Well, what I mean is that 803 00:44:46,813 --> 00:44:49,293 Speaker 3: there were only as far as I can remember, four, 804 00:44:49,493 --> 00:44:52,773 Speaker 3: maybe five law professors in all of Australia who came 805 00:44:52,853 --> 00:44:58,453 Speaker 3: out against the Voice. And you know, myriad pro voice 806 00:44:58,533 --> 00:45:02,573 Speaker 3: law professors. And you know, we're dying out. Wait twenty 807 00:45:02,653 --> 00:45:04,853 Speaker 3: years and there'll be no law professors who'll be against 808 00:45:04,893 --> 00:45:10,253 Speaker 3: the next sort of touchy, thealy progressive of woke constitutional amendment. 809 00:45:10,373 --> 00:45:14,733 Speaker 3: We won't exist because we're not being reproduced. And you 810 00:45:14,773 --> 00:45:17,213 Speaker 3: would think that would worry write a center political parties. 811 00:45:17,253 --> 00:45:18,893 Speaker 3: You think they would say, maybe we should you know, 812 00:45:19,013 --> 00:45:21,013 Speaker 3: we can look into the future. We're not crazy, Maybe 813 00:45:21,053 --> 00:45:22,693 Speaker 3: we should try to fix the law school so that 814 00:45:22,773 --> 00:45:27,533 Speaker 3: they're not churning out you know, technically not very able, 815 00:45:27,693 --> 00:45:31,093 Speaker 3: but social justice warriors. You know, why do you want 816 00:45:31,133 --> 00:45:35,933 Speaker 3: to hire someone as an employer who has spent four years, 817 00:45:36,213 --> 00:45:40,933 Speaker 3: you know, having grievance politics weaponized inside them. I don't 818 00:45:40,933 --> 00:45:43,973 Speaker 3: really get it, you know. And it's worse here on US. Sure, 819 00:45:44,053 --> 00:45:47,413 Speaker 3: the Coalition did nothing to fix the use. They got 820 00:45:47,453 --> 00:45:50,533 Speaker 3: worse every year. You know, they like to hang out 821 00:45:50,573 --> 00:45:53,493 Speaker 3: with the vice chancellors who are the problem. They don't 822 00:45:53,613 --> 00:45:56,053 Speaker 3: try to fix it, at least in the US, they're 823 00:45:56,053 --> 00:45:58,133 Speaker 3: trying to fix these things. I don't know if you noticed, 824 00:45:58,173 --> 00:46:02,533 Speaker 3: but on Friday two days ago in Florida, Governor DeSantis 825 00:46:02,613 --> 00:46:05,973 Speaker 3: and his appointments to the Board of Regents of the 826 00:46:06,133 --> 00:46:10,653 Speaker 3: University of Florida walked in and they fired every single 827 00:46:10,813 --> 00:46:13,453 Speaker 3: employee at the University of Florida, which is the flagship 828 00:46:13,573 --> 00:46:16,853 Speaker 3: university of the state, who is employed to do diversity 829 00:46:16,893 --> 00:46:19,413 Speaker 3: equity inclusion. That was a five million dollars a year 830 00:46:19,933 --> 00:46:22,613 Speaker 3: cumul of salary. They were asked to leave that day 831 00:46:23,333 --> 00:46:25,453 Speaker 3: and Desanta said that money will go back to the 832 00:46:25,533 --> 00:46:29,933 Speaker 3: regular university and it will not be hiring any more people. 833 00:46:30,133 --> 00:46:32,093 Speaker 3: That's the first thing I would do with every university 834 00:46:32,093 --> 00:46:35,413 Speaker 3: I would hire. I would fire every single diversity equity 835 00:46:35,813 --> 00:46:42,493 Speaker 3: because diversity just means monolithic group thinking that kills sort 836 00:46:42,533 --> 00:46:46,573 Speaker 3: of diversity of outlook. So diversity is just what kind 837 00:46:46,573 --> 00:46:48,813 Speaker 3: of reproductive organs do you have? Or you know, how 838 00:46:48,893 --> 00:46:51,133 Speaker 3: long has your DNA been in the country, And so 839 00:46:51,253 --> 00:46:54,053 Speaker 3: they think in group terms, and they impose a rigid 840 00:46:54,173 --> 00:46:58,013 Speaker 3: progressive orthodoxy. Imagine saying that you know you don't want 841 00:46:58,573 --> 00:47:01,853 Speaker 3: some particular flag, you don't want the latest iteration of 842 00:47:01,893 --> 00:47:06,733 Speaker 3: the rainbow flag flying on the university registry building, like 843 00:47:07,213 --> 00:47:10,573 Speaker 3: the university would hound you out of work. There is 844 00:47:10,693 --> 00:47:14,293 Speaker 3: no openness to ideas they pretend there is. And I 845 00:47:14,453 --> 00:47:16,573 Speaker 3: get plenty of students because I'm sort of known to 846 00:47:16,653 --> 00:47:18,973 Speaker 3: be who come and say they self censor all the 847 00:47:19,053 --> 00:47:22,013 Speaker 3: time because if they don't sell censor, they'll get a 848 00:47:22,053 --> 00:47:25,573 Speaker 3: lower mark. I guarantee that's true in New Zealand. I 849 00:47:25,693 --> 00:47:27,893 Speaker 3: guarantee in every university that's true. 850 00:47:28,053 --> 00:47:28,533 Speaker 2: It's true. 851 00:47:28,893 --> 00:47:29,773 Speaker 3: Now you true. 852 00:47:30,453 --> 00:47:35,213 Speaker 2: You mentioned Chief Justice Roberts, and a lot of people 853 00:47:35,573 --> 00:47:38,413 Speaker 2: have been for years now asking what's the matter with 854 00:47:38,533 --> 00:47:41,893 Speaker 2: him or why is he My information is for what 855 00:47:41,973 --> 00:47:45,413 Speaker 2: it's worth. My information is that he and his wife 856 00:47:45,613 --> 00:47:50,973 Speaker 2: have been seduced by society, by social by the social 857 00:47:51,093 --> 00:47:57,533 Speaker 2: scene in Washington, and they enjoy being fated. And he's 858 00:47:57,613 --> 00:47:59,973 Speaker 2: just been well, I'll get back to the words seduced. 859 00:48:00,933 --> 00:48:02,453 Speaker 3: Well he was, you know, I don't forget he did. 860 00:48:02,653 --> 00:48:06,053 Speaker 3: He was picked by Bush and from he was a Washington, 861 00:48:06,133 --> 00:48:11,293 Speaker 3: DC guy, and you know who knows. You're all speculating. 862 00:48:11,413 --> 00:48:15,293 Speaker 3: But the most important characteristic I think, not just of 863 00:48:16,173 --> 00:48:18,653 Speaker 3: right of center conservative politicians these days, but of any 864 00:48:18,693 --> 00:48:21,693 Speaker 3: of the appointees you want to make is can they 865 00:48:21,773 --> 00:48:24,573 Speaker 3: handle being hated? And the only way to tell if 866 00:48:24,613 --> 00:48:26,693 Speaker 3: someone can handle being hated is to see if they've 867 00:48:26,693 --> 00:48:29,893 Speaker 3: already been hated and have they buckled. You know, it's 868 00:48:29,933 --> 00:48:32,213 Speaker 3: hard to be a conservative judge because you will be 869 00:48:32,333 --> 00:48:36,173 Speaker 3: hated by the law firms. The progressive judges get invited 870 00:48:36,213 --> 00:48:37,933 Speaker 3: to the law schools and they're feedead And if you 871 00:48:38,013 --> 00:48:41,373 Speaker 3: care about that, and you know, it makes it worse. 872 00:48:42,013 --> 00:48:45,493 Speaker 3: You know, there's a law called O'Sullivan's Law by John 873 00:48:45,533 --> 00:48:49,013 Speaker 3: O'Sullivan that says, and it's just an empirical generalization, but 874 00:48:49,093 --> 00:48:53,493 Speaker 3: it says, any organization that's not overtly conservative will overtime 875 00:48:53,613 --> 00:48:57,053 Speaker 3: become left and my law, I want to call it 876 00:48:57,133 --> 00:49:00,093 Speaker 3: Allen's law. And this was in the context of a 877 00:49:00,133 --> 00:49:04,093 Speaker 3: male judge, but I said, any male judge who's married 878 00:49:04,173 --> 00:49:07,733 Speaker 3: to a wife who reads The Guardian will overtime become progressive. 879 00:49:08,613 --> 00:49:11,373 Speaker 3: And I mean there are exceptions, but it's really hard. 880 00:49:12,053 --> 00:49:14,253 Speaker 3: One of the things I'd want to know is, you know, 881 00:49:14,413 --> 00:49:18,053 Speaker 3: has this person, man or woman, have they ever you know, 882 00:49:18,213 --> 00:49:20,533 Speaker 3: stood for something and been hated and not back down? 883 00:49:21,413 --> 00:49:23,693 Speaker 3: You know, you know, what are there? Are they able 884 00:49:23,773 --> 00:49:27,613 Speaker 3: to withstand criticism? Because you know, I got a lot 885 00:49:27,653 --> 00:49:29,093 Speaker 3: of it in the universe. I don't really care. And 886 00:49:29,453 --> 00:49:32,733 Speaker 3: some of the good judges like Thomas and Alito, you know, 887 00:49:33,013 --> 00:49:35,453 Speaker 3: they can handle it. Roberts can't handle it. Doesn't like it. 888 00:49:36,573 --> 00:49:38,653 Speaker 3: Of course, it seems to be okay. You would have 889 00:49:38,653 --> 00:49:41,893 Speaker 3: thought Kavanaugh, since I don't think another politician on the 890 00:49:41,973 --> 00:49:45,173 Speaker 3: planet would have stood by him when when other than 891 00:49:45,213 --> 00:49:47,093 Speaker 3: Trump would have stood by him when he was being 892 00:49:47,653 --> 00:49:50,533 Speaker 3: these high school allegations that you know, were on their 893 00:49:50,573 --> 00:49:55,573 Speaker 3: face implausible in the extreme, most politicians on the right 894 00:49:55,573 --> 00:49:58,333 Speaker 3: would have buckled and jettisoned him and picked someone else. 895 00:49:58,853 --> 00:50:01,253 Speaker 3: You'd have thought Kavanaugh. So sometimes you get the sort 896 00:50:01,253 --> 00:50:05,533 Speaker 3: of Stockholm syndrome, and he's trying to to appease his attackers. 897 00:50:05,573 --> 00:50:07,653 Speaker 3: I thought he'd come out and be really tough. I 898 00:50:07,653 --> 00:50:11,973 Speaker 3: think it's a bit of I'm Conan Barrett the woman. 899 00:50:12,133 --> 00:50:13,933 Speaker 3: I think she could be pretty good. Who can tell. 900 00:50:15,053 --> 00:50:19,973 Speaker 3: But again, you know, it's not easy to be an 901 00:50:19,973 --> 00:50:23,053 Speaker 3: outlawyer in social situations, and so I you know that 902 00:50:23,373 --> 00:50:26,213 Speaker 3: there's some plausibility to what you say about Roberts, but 903 00:50:26,573 --> 00:50:29,053 Speaker 3: you need people who don't care about that and they're 904 00:50:29,053 --> 00:50:30,773 Speaker 3: prepared to stand up values. 905 00:50:30,933 --> 00:50:34,933 Speaker 2: Indeed, let's just stay with the situation in the States 906 00:50:35,213 --> 00:50:37,733 Speaker 2: for a moment longer. I watch your opinion. I'd like 907 00:50:37,773 --> 00:50:40,573 Speaker 2: your opinion on the on the charges that have been 908 00:50:40,613 --> 00:50:44,893 Speaker 2: filed against Trump and are currently going through the courts, 909 00:50:45,293 --> 00:50:47,893 Speaker 2: and one by one they seem to be either finished 910 00:50:48,093 --> 00:50:52,573 Speaker 2: or eroding in the process of being finished. I have 911 00:50:52,693 --> 00:50:56,253 Speaker 2: one specific question. You've got the Attorney General in New York, 912 00:50:56,333 --> 00:51:01,133 Speaker 2: Leticia James, working hand in glove with Justice Arthur and Gorn. 913 00:51:01,773 --> 00:51:03,933 Speaker 2: And you've seen that, judge, haven't you on television? 914 00:51:04,333 --> 00:51:06,693 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, you're talking. Yes, I mean, I think it's 915 00:51:06,853 --> 00:51:09,133 Speaker 3: just I don't think any of the charges would have 916 00:51:09,173 --> 00:51:13,533 Speaker 3: been brought against anyone other than Trump, but it's goran. 917 00:51:13,693 --> 00:51:15,893 Speaker 2: I want to concentrate on how can this guy get 918 00:51:15,933 --> 00:51:20,053 Speaker 2: to become a Supreme Court state Supreme Court justice when 919 00:51:20,173 --> 00:51:25,293 Speaker 2: he is the idiot jerk that he patently is, and 920 00:51:25,373 --> 00:51:29,213 Speaker 2: he displays himself accordingly in court and for the cameras 921 00:51:29,853 --> 00:51:34,573 Speaker 2: and issues finds that are just off the planet, let 922 00:51:34,733 --> 00:51:38,133 Speaker 2: fall foul of some of the governing laws. 923 00:51:39,533 --> 00:51:44,613 Speaker 3: So what listeners need to remember is at the level 924 00:51:44,693 --> 00:51:48,213 Speaker 3: of the states in the US, most US states elector judges. 925 00:51:48,533 --> 00:51:51,773 Speaker 3: I'm not talking about federal court. I'm talking about state courts. 926 00:51:52,133 --> 00:51:54,093 Speaker 3: So I don't know New York off the top of 927 00:51:54,133 --> 00:51:55,973 Speaker 3: my head, but my bet is that all the top 928 00:51:56,053 --> 00:51:59,093 Speaker 3: New York state judges are elected, and New York is 929 00:51:59,093 --> 00:52:01,413 Speaker 3: a big Democrat state, so he will be. He will 930 00:52:02,093 --> 00:52:06,093 Speaker 3: implicitly or explicitly have run on the Democrat ticket. Latisa 931 00:52:06,173 --> 00:52:09,733 Speaker 3: James ran for District Attorney on the promise to get Trump. 932 00:52:11,173 --> 00:52:15,573 Speaker 3: The Mara a Lago case where the banks came and 933 00:52:15,653 --> 00:52:19,053 Speaker 3: testified for Trump and said, we did our own due diligence, 934 00:52:19,093 --> 00:52:20,653 Speaker 3: and we always knew he was going to pay us back, 935 00:52:20,653 --> 00:52:24,253 Speaker 3: and he did pay us back. And and you know 936 00:52:24,413 --> 00:52:27,053 Speaker 3: this judge decided that he has to pay four hundred million, 937 00:52:27,173 --> 00:52:29,373 Speaker 3: even though there's there is no victim, and the banks 938 00:52:29,373 --> 00:52:31,973 Speaker 3: are testifying for Trump that they got every penny back. 939 00:52:32,493 --> 00:52:36,373 Speaker 3: And you have other big developers saying, if anything, Trump 940 00:52:36,613 --> 00:52:40,453 Speaker 3: was offering more security than anyone else. There's that Canadian 941 00:52:40,573 --> 00:52:44,093 Speaker 3: Kevin O'Leary who said, no entrepreneur that he knows of 942 00:52:44,173 --> 00:52:47,813 Speaker 3: will ever invest in New York again, because the Trump 943 00:52:47,973 --> 00:52:51,053 Speaker 3: was just following bog standard practice. So they have just 944 00:52:51,693 --> 00:52:54,253 Speaker 3: decided to go after and get him. Now that's at 945 00:52:54,293 --> 00:52:56,053 Speaker 3: the state level, so that will be appealed to the 946 00:52:56,133 --> 00:53:03,733 Speaker 3: New York appeals courts. I suspect that they will overturn that. 947 00:53:04,013 --> 00:53:06,493 Speaker 3: Even the New York Court of Appeal can realize that 948 00:53:06,853 --> 00:53:09,253 Speaker 3: it's really bad for the state of New York. If 949 00:53:09,333 --> 00:53:11,973 Speaker 3: you say that, you know, we can just manipulate the 950 00:53:12,093 --> 00:53:15,573 Speaker 3: laws to get somebody, which is patently what they did 951 00:53:15,653 --> 00:53:18,733 Speaker 3: in the New York case. I think. Then you look 952 00:53:18,813 --> 00:53:22,533 Speaker 3: at the Georgia case, which is falling apart because Sammy 953 00:53:22,573 --> 00:53:26,973 Speaker 3: Willis employed her lover and again there's evidence that she 954 00:53:27,213 --> 00:53:29,853 Speaker 3: was in contact with the Biden administration. It does look 955 00:53:29,933 --> 00:53:34,453 Speaker 3: like law fair. It's not clear if that case well 956 00:53:34,493 --> 00:53:36,133 Speaker 3: I think she's going to be removed from the case. 957 00:53:36,173 --> 00:53:37,973 Speaker 3: That's what's happening right now, So it'll have to start. 958 00:53:38,093 --> 00:53:41,573 Speaker 2: She's committed perjury, she's. 959 00:53:41,213 --> 00:53:44,853 Speaker 3: Committed perjury, her boyfriend's committed perjury, and so she'll be 960 00:53:44,973 --> 00:53:49,413 Speaker 3: removed from the as the prosecutor. I don't see that 961 00:53:49,573 --> 00:53:54,013 Speaker 3: case having a hope of being even really started again 962 00:53:54,613 --> 00:53:58,893 Speaker 3: before the election. You've got the document's case down in Florida. 963 00:53:59,253 --> 00:54:01,253 Speaker 3: I mean, one of the problems for Trump is that 964 00:54:01,533 --> 00:54:04,573 Speaker 3: they're bringing these cases and they get jury cases in 965 00:54:04,613 --> 00:54:08,213 Speaker 3: the US. They're bringing them in either Manhattan or Washington. 966 00:54:08,933 --> 00:54:11,573 Speaker 3: In Washington, d C. It's something like ninety three to 967 00:54:11,733 --> 00:54:15,613 Speaker 3: ninety five percent people vote Democrat, and they're just banking 968 00:54:15,693 --> 00:54:20,453 Speaker 3: on the fact that, you know, we can. It's a 969 00:54:20,533 --> 00:54:24,453 Speaker 3: bit like the Mark Stein trial where he was the 970 00:54:24,533 --> 00:54:30,053 Speaker 3: hockey stick climate change trial and they in the final summation, 971 00:54:30,333 --> 00:54:34,173 Speaker 3: the lawyer for the other guy, Michael Mann, I think 972 00:54:34,213 --> 00:54:36,893 Speaker 3: his name, is basically say, well, no matter what else 973 00:54:36,933 --> 00:54:40,053 Speaker 3: you think, give lots of exemplary damages so that people 974 00:54:40,213 --> 00:54:43,733 Speaker 3: like Stein can't be skeptical of climate change. And so 975 00:54:43,813 --> 00:54:46,293 Speaker 3: the jury comes back with one dollar damages. So that's 976 00:54:46,373 --> 00:54:49,333 Speaker 3: the risory Basically, they agree with Steine and a million 977 00:54:49,413 --> 00:54:51,893 Speaker 3: dollars in exemplary damages that could not happen. 978 00:54:51,973 --> 00:54:56,053 Speaker 2: It's explain, just explain to us what the difference between 979 00:54:56,093 --> 00:54:58,373 Speaker 2: those two damages are. 980 00:54:58,773 --> 00:55:02,053 Speaker 3: So not everywhere has exemplary damages, but it's a way 981 00:55:02,093 --> 00:55:05,413 Speaker 3: to punish people. So if you decide that on the 982 00:55:05,533 --> 00:55:09,333 Speaker 3: merits of the legal action, let's say someone fell and 983 00:55:09,413 --> 00:55:12,893 Speaker 3: hurt themselves. You know, the amount of money they're owed 984 00:55:12,973 --> 00:55:14,933 Speaker 3: for their fixing their leg and the amount of time 985 00:55:14,973 --> 00:55:18,933 Speaker 3: they missed and work is, you know, one hundred thousand dollars. Well, 986 00:55:18,973 --> 00:55:23,133 Speaker 3: in some US jurisdictions, you can then add exemplary damages 987 00:55:23,373 --> 00:55:26,293 Speaker 3: to punish the person who I don't know was running 988 00:55:26,333 --> 00:55:28,853 Speaker 3: the school playground for being, you know, just so they 989 00:55:28,933 --> 00:55:31,653 Speaker 3: never do it again. It's nothing to do with the 990 00:55:31,773 --> 00:55:35,413 Speaker 3: actual loss of the person who is hurt. It's got 991 00:55:35,493 --> 00:55:38,293 Speaker 3: to send this message to the world exemplary damages to 992 00:55:38,373 --> 00:55:40,853 Speaker 3: make sure you're more careful in future, and they might, 993 00:55:41,133 --> 00:55:43,813 Speaker 3: you know, add some I don't really like exemplary damages. 994 00:55:44,173 --> 00:55:47,293 Speaker 3: I wouldn't have them, and not all jurisdictions have them. 995 00:55:47,773 --> 00:55:52,053 Speaker 3: But in DC man got a dollar. That's what the 996 00:55:52,133 --> 00:55:55,933 Speaker 3: jury decided that you know, the defamation was worth to 997 00:55:55,973 --> 00:55:58,133 Speaker 3: him a dollar. Basically, they're saying you weren't the famed 998 00:55:58,173 --> 00:56:00,733 Speaker 3: at all, but then they gave them a million dollars. 999 00:56:00,773 --> 00:56:03,213 Speaker 3: And there's some case law in the US that says 1000 00:56:03,253 --> 00:56:05,613 Speaker 3: your exemplary damages can't be more than ten to one 1001 00:56:05,693 --> 00:56:08,973 Speaker 3: what you get for your civil damages. But the problem 1002 00:56:09,093 --> 00:56:12,813 Speaker 3: is that Stein has been bankrupted by the process. You know, 1003 00:56:12,893 --> 00:56:15,333 Speaker 3: they dragged it out for about twelve years before it 1004 00:56:15,413 --> 00:56:19,173 Speaker 3: ever got to trial, and Man's being completely funded by 1005 00:56:19,293 --> 00:56:23,853 Speaker 3: billionaire climate activists, and you know, the process is the punishment, 1006 00:56:24,493 --> 00:56:28,053 Speaker 3: and it's patently not a defamation by Stein, and they 1007 00:56:28,133 --> 00:56:31,813 Speaker 3: have broken him by this process. And you know, eventually 1008 00:56:31,973 --> 00:56:34,733 Speaker 3: it'll get to appeal court where Stein has to represent himself. 1009 00:56:34,733 --> 00:56:37,653 Speaker 3: He can't afford a lawyer, and you know they might 1010 00:56:37,733 --> 00:56:41,013 Speaker 3: eventually say it'll be you know, ten dollars exemplary damages. 1011 00:56:41,653 --> 00:56:44,253 Speaker 3: The Supreme Court's not going to take it because they 1012 00:56:44,813 --> 00:56:49,853 Speaker 3: you know, you can't have every single instance of lawfare. Basically, 1013 00:56:50,573 --> 00:56:53,013 Speaker 3: if you have a legal fraternity that leans nine to 1014 00:56:53,133 --> 00:56:57,533 Speaker 3: one for the Democrats, your odds of the lawyers favoring 1015 00:56:57,613 --> 00:56:59,813 Speaker 3: one side of politics over the other are pretty high. 1016 00:57:00,773 --> 00:57:02,693 Speaker 3: And that's pretty much what you have in the US. 1017 00:57:02,813 --> 00:57:05,773 Speaker 3: I mean, they've all sorts of studies. You know, the 1018 00:57:06,693 --> 00:57:11,133 Speaker 3: lawyers vote Democrat massively more than the split amongst the 1019 00:57:11,173 --> 00:57:14,213 Speaker 3: wider society. Why do you think because they go to 1020 00:57:14,333 --> 00:57:16,853 Speaker 3: law schools where they're indoctrinated. I mean, you can't, you 1021 00:57:16,893 --> 00:57:20,853 Speaker 3: can only spend Not everyone falls victim to indoctrination, but 1022 00:57:21,133 --> 00:57:25,133 Speaker 3: lots of people do. You're told about social justice and 1023 00:57:25,773 --> 00:57:30,053 Speaker 3: you know, weaponized on all the sort of woke shibblists 1024 00:57:30,093 --> 00:57:33,613 Speaker 3: of the day, pronouns whatever, and a lot of people 1025 00:57:33,733 --> 00:57:35,733 Speaker 3: come out and then the law firms cater to that, 1026 00:57:37,373 --> 00:57:39,453 Speaker 3: and you know, so you now have to pick your 1027 00:57:39,493 --> 00:57:41,253 Speaker 3: judges from that pool of people as hard. 1028 00:57:41,853 --> 00:57:45,133 Speaker 2: Just scanning my bookshelves looking for a book that's that's 1029 00:57:45,533 --> 00:57:52,213 Speaker 2: entitled something like Schools for Disinformation or something along certainly disinformation. Anyway, 1030 00:57:52,253 --> 00:57:54,533 Speaker 2: it's about law schools and where they're at and I 1031 00:57:54,613 --> 00:57:56,653 Speaker 2: haven't read it, but it's their waiting. 1032 00:57:57,333 --> 00:57:59,413 Speaker 3: Well, let's just say I'm not getting invited over to 1033 00:57:59,533 --> 00:58:02,413 Speaker 3: New Zealand law schools to give any talks. Even though 1034 00:58:02,413 --> 00:58:04,213 Speaker 3: I had eleven of the best years of my life 1035 00:58:04,253 --> 00:58:07,453 Speaker 3: at Otaga. It was a great law school. You know 1036 00:58:07,733 --> 00:58:09,813 Speaker 3: exactly what you wanted out of a law, schical differences 1037 00:58:09,853 --> 00:58:12,613 Speaker 3: of opinion. Everyone got along, but I'm not sure it's 1038 00:58:12,653 --> 00:58:13,853 Speaker 3: in that same state today. 1039 00:58:13,853 --> 00:58:16,293 Speaker 2: On Can I just say to you that there is 1040 00:58:16,373 --> 00:58:18,213 Speaker 2: a there is a mood about and I'm aware of 1041 00:58:18,293 --> 00:58:22,573 Speaker 2: it that if you're a parent wanting to send your 1042 00:58:22,653 --> 00:58:28,373 Speaker 2: child somewhere to university, you could be forgiven for not 1043 00:58:28,493 --> 00:58:31,013 Speaker 2: sending them. Zoo Tigo and my boy went through there, 1044 00:58:31,253 --> 00:58:33,333 Speaker 2: but it's changed dramatically since then. 1045 00:58:33,773 --> 00:58:36,333 Speaker 3: It was just a great place to send your kids 1046 00:58:36,533 --> 00:58:38,493 Speaker 3: when I was there, right up to two thousand and four, 1047 00:58:39,013 --> 00:58:41,773 Speaker 3: and then the forces of political correctness seem to have 1048 00:58:41,893 --> 00:58:46,493 Speaker 3: kicked in and overdrive, and you know, and appointments are tough. 1049 00:58:46,693 --> 00:58:51,453 Speaker 3: You know, once sizable chunk of the faculty has one 1050 00:58:51,533 --> 00:58:53,453 Speaker 3: set of us and they said about hiring people with 1051 00:58:53,533 --> 00:58:56,973 Speaker 3: the same set of views. Not surprisingly, that's the kind 1052 00:58:56,973 --> 00:58:58,213 Speaker 3: of person they normally hire. 1053 00:58:59,093 --> 00:59:02,453 Speaker 2: Have you had any association with the new University of Austin. 1054 00:59:05,133 --> 00:59:10,413 Speaker 3: No. I've been on a panel once with Narl Ferguson. 1055 00:59:11,293 --> 00:59:14,493 Speaker 3: He's the historian with his wife i in Hersili, who's 1056 00:59:14,533 --> 00:59:17,653 Speaker 3: set up or He was one of the joint founders 1057 00:59:17,693 --> 00:59:20,373 Speaker 3: of the University of Austin. But let's hope that goes well. 1058 00:59:20,413 --> 00:59:22,373 Speaker 3: But then you have to put that in contact. That'll 1059 00:59:22,413 --> 00:59:26,773 Speaker 3: be one university out of three hundred American universities. But 1060 00:59:26,893 --> 00:59:30,413 Speaker 3: it's a start. This is the model that you have 1061 00:59:30,533 --> 00:59:33,093 Speaker 3: in Hungary, where ORBN just decided we can't fix the 1062 00:59:33,173 --> 00:59:35,733 Speaker 3: existing universities, We'll just set up a parallel and let 1063 00:59:35,773 --> 00:59:37,493 Speaker 3: the parents peck which ones they want to go to. 1064 00:59:37,613 --> 00:59:40,253 Speaker 3: And that's been very successful in Hungary because it's really 1065 00:59:40,333 --> 00:59:44,573 Speaker 3: hard to It's really hard to once you've got an 1066 00:59:44,653 --> 00:59:50,373 Speaker 3: incredible percentage of the institutional people with one set of views, 1067 00:59:50,773 --> 00:59:56,053 Speaker 3: and some of them are committed to institutional variety, but 1068 00:59:56,213 --> 00:59:58,813 Speaker 3: many of them aren't. You know, you get it. There's 1069 00:59:58,853 --> 01:00:02,333 Speaker 3: just been a collapse a viewpoint diversity. Jonathan Haate talks 1070 01:00:02,333 --> 01:00:05,933 Speaker 3: about it in the US. There's plenty of data. You know, 1071 01:00:06,293 --> 01:00:08,733 Speaker 3: he used to be a four to one democrat. Now 1072 01:00:08,773 --> 01:00:12,013 Speaker 3: it's like eleven to one, twelve to one. How many 1073 01:00:12,093 --> 01:00:18,613 Speaker 3: people would vote for ACT at any university department, maybe 1074 01:00:18,653 --> 01:00:21,613 Speaker 3: a couple of finance people. How many would vote for 1075 01:00:21,933 --> 01:00:25,773 Speaker 3: New Zealand first, even national? I mean, you know, I'd 1076 01:00:25,813 --> 01:00:29,933 Speaker 3: be surprised if university faculty don't go eight four to 1077 01:00:30,053 --> 01:00:34,293 Speaker 3: one for the left side of politics. Maybe higher. I mean, 1078 01:00:34,333 --> 01:00:37,373 Speaker 3: I've seen it with the Voice here, where there are 1079 01:00:37,413 --> 01:00:40,533 Speaker 3: only four of us at any law school in Australia 1080 01:00:40,653 --> 01:00:43,333 Speaker 3: came out openly for no I know there were a 1081 01:00:43,373 --> 01:00:44,853 Speaker 3: few others who are afraid to say it. And if 1082 01:00:44,853 --> 01:00:47,853 Speaker 3: you're a junior and you're looking for promotion, everyone can 1083 01:00:47,973 --> 01:00:50,133 Speaker 3: understand that once you have a family and a mortgage, 1084 01:00:50,733 --> 01:00:52,493 Speaker 3: you can't afford to lose your job. It's hard to 1085 01:00:52,533 --> 01:00:56,973 Speaker 3: be brave. Everyone understands that, and you can't really criticize that. 1086 01:00:57,613 --> 01:01:00,293 Speaker 3: But there are people who have reached the top and 1087 01:01:00,373 --> 01:01:03,053 Speaker 3: they can afford to be brave, and they're not. And 1088 01:01:03,253 --> 01:01:05,173 Speaker 3: you know, those are the people that we have to 1089 01:01:05,973 --> 01:01:07,893 Speaker 3: sort of say, wait, what's wrong with you? You're in 1090 01:01:07,933 --> 01:01:09,613 Speaker 3: a position you're not going to lose your job and 1091 01:01:09,653 --> 01:01:12,973 Speaker 3: you should be. It's hard to know which is worse, 1092 01:01:13,373 --> 01:01:18,973 Speaker 3: cowardice or you know, the substantive opinions. We know right 1093 01:01:19,933 --> 01:01:22,413 Speaker 3: bravery is important in right now and we're not saying 1094 01:01:22,493 --> 01:01:22,813 Speaker 3: enough of it. 1095 01:01:23,613 --> 01:01:28,533 Speaker 2: Exactly back the where we started, and that is with 1096 01:01:29,533 --> 01:01:33,293 Speaker 2: a Democracy and decline. Is the book still available? 1097 01:01:34,413 --> 01:01:36,493 Speaker 3: It is? But as I said, I've got a new 1098 01:01:36,533 --> 01:01:40,533 Speaker 3: one out called The Age of Foolishness, uh SeeMe general 1099 01:01:40,733 --> 01:01:44,453 Speaker 3: theme updated a bid and sort of fear my funnier 1100 01:01:44,493 --> 01:01:47,093 Speaker 3: pieces are in it. So yes, it's you know, I'm 1101 01:01:47,133 --> 01:01:48,733 Speaker 3: having no effect on the world at all. 1102 01:01:48,733 --> 01:01:50,893 Speaker 2: But were you go, Well, I can tell you there'll 1103 01:01:50,893 --> 01:01:52,493 Speaker 2: be there'll be a few people who will be wanting 1104 01:01:52,573 --> 01:01:54,813 Speaker 2: to buy one or the other. And so you're saying 1105 01:01:54,853 --> 01:01:56,453 Speaker 2: that you can. 1106 01:01:56,413 --> 01:02:00,053 Speaker 3: Just get get them oney Amazon. Age of Foolishness, Yeah, 1107 01:02:00,093 --> 01:02:04,293 Speaker 3: from a couple of years ago, a good, good American publisher, 1108 01:02:04,333 --> 01:02:09,293 Speaker 3: because probably no one else would take it. So you know, 1109 01:02:09,333 --> 01:02:11,693 Speaker 3: there's still a little bit of robustness over in the US, 1110 01:02:11,813 --> 01:02:14,653 Speaker 3: and even in the UK, even though they're appalling inroads 1111 01:02:14,693 --> 01:02:18,093 Speaker 3: on free speech and stuff, you still get powerful sort 1112 01:02:18,133 --> 01:02:22,053 Speaker 3: of organizations like Toby Young's Free Speech Union. And by 1113 01:02:22,093 --> 01:02:25,173 Speaker 3: the way, Toby Young is coming out to Australia, New 1114 01:02:25,213 --> 01:02:29,693 Speaker 3: Zealand and June, I think, and he's spending quite a 1115 01:02:29,733 --> 01:02:32,333 Speaker 3: bit of time in New Zealand, so he is he 1116 01:02:32,413 --> 01:02:37,493 Speaker 3: has been a force for freedom that you know, I 1117 01:02:37,733 --> 01:02:41,613 Speaker 3: can just only applaud him. He's also the man who 1118 01:02:41,853 --> 01:02:45,053 Speaker 3: ran lockdown Skeptics from day one of the lockdowns, which 1119 01:02:45,333 --> 01:02:48,213 Speaker 3: has now become daily skeptic. I think it gets two 1120 01:02:48,293 --> 01:02:52,373 Speaker 3: or three million views a week. But so he he's 1121 01:02:52,413 --> 01:02:54,933 Speaker 3: a real entrepreneur for freedom and he's coming out to 1122 01:02:54,973 --> 01:02:57,453 Speaker 3: New Zealand. I can't remember who's bringing him out, but 1123 01:02:58,253 --> 01:02:58,853 Speaker 3: you know they'll. 1124 01:02:58,653 --> 01:03:00,533 Speaker 2: Be I think it'll be the free speech crowd. 1125 01:03:00,573 --> 01:03:02,733 Speaker 3: I'd say free speech and I think maybe the tax 1126 01:03:02,813 --> 01:03:05,973 Speaker 3: Paara lines. But anyway, hey, he's done great work and 1127 01:03:06,013 --> 01:03:08,813 Speaker 3: they're actually helping people who speak out in Britain and 1128 01:03:08,933 --> 01:03:11,533 Speaker 3: if they get fired, they have a tremendous track rate 1129 01:03:11,573 --> 01:03:15,733 Speaker 3: of getting their jobs back for them. And so they 1130 01:03:15,813 --> 01:03:19,653 Speaker 3: have the lawyers and they also, you know, to some extent, 1131 01:03:19,733 --> 01:03:22,973 Speaker 3: occasionally they use the methods of the people who So 1132 01:03:23,133 --> 01:03:25,813 Speaker 3: someone that's trolled through the last forty years of your 1133 01:03:25,853 --> 01:03:29,573 Speaker 3: social media to find some joke you made to a 1134 01:03:29,653 --> 01:03:32,733 Speaker 3: friend on social media from fifteen years ago, then the 1135 01:03:32,773 --> 01:03:35,933 Speaker 3: Free Speech Union will troll through the social media of 1136 01:03:35,973 --> 01:03:38,973 Speaker 3: all your accusers and publish ones that they find. And 1137 01:03:39,053 --> 01:03:42,813 Speaker 3: that has a very salutary effect because you know, if 1138 01:03:42,853 --> 01:03:45,653 Speaker 3: you really want to live in a world where thirteen 1139 01:03:45,733 --> 01:03:47,893 Speaker 3: years ago, at a party, you can't tell a joke. 1140 01:03:47,933 --> 01:03:50,413 Speaker 3: I mean, we've all told jokes, but you know, and 1141 01:03:50,693 --> 01:03:53,093 Speaker 3: there's a time for a one in the morning bar joke, 1142 01:03:53,173 --> 01:03:55,773 Speaker 3: and there's a time. And these people have no sense 1143 01:03:55,813 --> 01:04:00,613 Speaker 3: of context. They're just latter day Puritans, you know. The 1144 01:04:00,693 --> 01:04:04,853 Speaker 3: Puritans had no sense of occasion or humor or anything. 1145 01:04:04,933 --> 01:04:07,373 Speaker 3: And they want to bring the same standards to bear 1146 01:04:07,973 --> 01:04:11,653 Speaker 3: that you use, you know, when you're addressing the judiciary 1147 01:04:11,773 --> 01:04:13,853 Speaker 3: as you'd use it at one in the morning with 1148 01:04:13,973 --> 01:04:16,413 Speaker 3: your high school friends in a bar. And they're not 1149 01:04:16,533 --> 01:04:19,573 Speaker 3: the same. And we don't all need to be Puritans. 1150 01:04:20,253 --> 01:04:22,133 Speaker 3: And it's not a very fun world to live in 1151 01:04:22,173 --> 01:04:25,133 Speaker 3: where everyone's a Puritan. And so what do you think? 1152 01:04:25,333 --> 01:04:30,773 Speaker 2: What do you say then, too, people who respond to 1153 01:04:31,773 --> 01:04:34,213 Speaker 2: Trump in a manner of that, well, he's done. He 1154 01:04:34,293 --> 01:04:39,253 Speaker 2: does some good stuff. He's uh, he's got some good policies. 1155 01:04:39,493 --> 01:04:41,773 Speaker 2: But I just don't like I don't like his character. 1156 01:04:43,133 --> 01:04:44,813 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean the first thing I'd say is, 1157 01:04:45,293 --> 01:04:47,213 Speaker 3: that's a bit of an odd test. What eight million 1158 01:04:47,253 --> 01:04:49,773 Speaker 3: people have poured through illegally through the border with fentanyl. 1159 01:04:49,853 --> 01:04:51,813 Speaker 3: You don't like, you know, he's a bit distastefully, So 1160 01:04:51,933 --> 01:04:54,213 Speaker 3: don't have him to dinner. He is borers, he is crass. 1161 01:04:54,253 --> 01:04:56,213 Speaker 3: I don't have him to dinner. The other thing is, 1162 01:04:56,293 --> 01:04:59,213 Speaker 3: come on, I mean, you know, Trump's character looks pretty 1163 01:04:59,253 --> 01:05:02,453 Speaker 3: good compared to Lyndon Johnson. Lindon Johnson was a Lyndon 1164 01:05:02,493 --> 01:05:04,293 Speaker 3: Johnson brought in the civil rights aack, but he was 1165 01:05:04,373 --> 01:05:08,813 Speaker 3: a horribly human being and no ja if kay had 1166 01:05:08,853 --> 01:05:11,653 Speaker 3: hookers in the White House all the time. You know, 1167 01:05:12,653 --> 01:05:14,533 Speaker 3: it's a little easier on the left side of politics 1168 01:05:14,573 --> 01:05:16,573 Speaker 3: because the press doesn't, you know, look at how they're 1169 01:05:16,613 --> 01:05:19,973 Speaker 3: protecting Biden. The guy can't even walk. If that were 1170 01:05:20,093 --> 01:05:23,173 Speaker 3: Trump every day, they would be running What's wrong with Trump? 1171 01:05:23,693 --> 01:05:26,173 Speaker 3: So partly it's the media thing. Partly, you know, he 1172 01:05:26,293 --> 01:05:30,053 Speaker 3: is a bit borish in crass, but the only kind 1173 01:05:30,093 --> 01:05:33,253 Speaker 3: of you know, my view is you buy people wholesale, 1174 01:05:33,333 --> 01:05:36,413 Speaker 3: not retail. They can't change their personality. And the kind 1175 01:05:36,453 --> 01:05:41,333 Speaker 3: of person who can withstand the most virulent attacks like 1176 01:05:41,413 --> 01:05:46,453 Speaker 3: the Russia collusion scam, like the incredible lawfare, like trying 1177 01:05:46,493 --> 01:05:49,773 Speaker 3: to bankrupt you, bringing the organs of the state, the 1178 01:05:50,253 --> 01:05:53,253 Speaker 3: fifty one intelligence officers who signed a bogus letter knowing 1179 01:05:53,293 --> 01:05:56,053 Speaker 3: those false what kind of people can withstand that? Well, 1180 01:05:56,053 --> 01:05:59,573 Speaker 3: I'll tell you who the most incredibly borish craft kind 1181 01:05:59,613 --> 01:06:03,093 Speaker 3: of real estate developer. You can't just turn that off. 1182 01:06:03,333 --> 01:06:05,973 Speaker 3: You know, his virtues are his vices. 1183 01:06:06,133 --> 01:06:11,773 Speaker 2: Ah, speaking of virtues, are you familiar with Tom Klgenstein. No, 1184 01:06:12,893 --> 01:06:19,573 Speaker 2: Tom Klingenstein. Do a search and when you find it, 1185 01:06:19,653 --> 01:06:23,733 Speaker 2: and it's very easy to find, go to Trump's virtues. 1186 01:06:23,893 --> 01:06:24,333 Speaker 3: You'll have to. 1187 01:06:24,573 --> 01:06:26,773 Speaker 2: It's about two years old now, but you give your 1188 01:06:26,813 --> 01:06:30,733 Speaker 2: spool down and you'll find Trump's virtues. You must watch it, 1189 01:06:31,253 --> 01:06:32,733 Speaker 2: especially when you're feeling lonely. 1190 01:06:33,733 --> 01:06:36,213 Speaker 3: Okay, well, I will do that because in substance, I 1191 01:06:36,253 --> 01:06:39,293 Speaker 3: think Trump ran the best administration of you know this 1192 01:06:39,653 --> 01:06:43,853 Speaker 3: this century so far. On the economy. When he couldn't 1193 01:06:43,893 --> 01:06:45,893 Speaker 3: fix the border, it was because of people like Paul 1194 01:06:45,973 --> 01:06:48,693 Speaker 3: Ryan and the Republican Party in Congress he wouldn't fund him. 1195 01:06:49,173 --> 01:06:52,613 Speaker 3: When he couldn't deal with the affordable character was because 1196 01:06:52,693 --> 01:06:56,573 Speaker 3: John McCain cast of citing the siding vote for uh, 1197 01:06:57,493 --> 01:07:00,493 Speaker 3: you know, for the status quo, so against the Republicans. 1198 01:07:00,893 --> 01:07:02,533 Speaker 3: And so you know, he was the president. He couldn't 1199 01:07:02,533 --> 01:07:05,493 Speaker 3: do everything. Did he make mistakes? I think Trump made 1200 01:07:05,573 --> 01:07:09,373 Speaker 3: terrible mistakes around COVID. I I think the Santas was 1201 01:07:09,453 --> 01:07:13,293 Speaker 3: much better. But there's the old joke about the mayor 1202 01:07:13,373 --> 01:07:16,493 Speaker 3: of New York who runs into somebody and says, you know, 1203 01:07:16,613 --> 01:07:20,373 Speaker 3: if you agree with my nine out of twelve of 1204 01:07:20,453 --> 01:07:23,093 Speaker 3: my policies, you really need to vote for me. And 1205 01:07:24,733 --> 01:07:26,733 Speaker 3: the voter says, well, what if I agree with all 1206 01:07:26,773 --> 01:07:28,653 Speaker 3: twelve of your policies and the guy says, you need 1207 01:07:28,693 --> 01:07:32,853 Speaker 3: to see a psychiatrist. There's nobody you agree with. And 1208 01:07:33,133 --> 01:07:36,293 Speaker 3: you know, when you look at the Trump administration, if 1209 01:07:36,333 --> 01:07:38,333 Speaker 3: you are so overwhelmed and a lot of it's a 1210 01:07:38,413 --> 01:07:40,613 Speaker 3: media characterization, but not all of it. But if you're 1211 01:07:40,933 --> 01:07:44,173 Speaker 3: so overwhelmed by his personality, then you can't complain. When 1212 01:07:44,173 --> 01:07:46,773 Speaker 3: you have open borders and you have law fare and 1213 01:07:46,853 --> 01:07:51,093 Speaker 3: the weaponization of the judiciary, and you know, massive inflation. 1214 01:07:51,733 --> 01:07:54,013 Speaker 3: You know, you get what you vote for. And I 1215 01:07:55,973 --> 01:07:58,973 Speaker 3: I think that as things stand now, because Trump's leading 1216 01:07:59,053 --> 01:08:01,893 Speaker 3: in all of the recent polls and the you know, 1217 01:08:02,013 --> 01:08:04,933 Speaker 3: he never you had to remember that it's not a 1218 01:08:05,253 --> 01:08:08,893 Speaker 3: French presidential system where everyone gets to vote. California is 1219 01:08:08,893 --> 01:08:13,093 Speaker 3: going to go Democrat no matter what. So Trumps lost 1220 01:08:13,173 --> 01:08:15,413 Speaker 3: the last election by a couple million votes, but if 1221 01:08:15,453 --> 01:08:18,573 Speaker 3: you take out California, then Trump won the election, and 1222 01:08:18,693 --> 01:08:22,093 Speaker 3: so you're always going to lose California in a elector 1223 01:08:22,213 --> 01:08:25,493 Speaker 3: college system, So if the polls are about even, then 1224 01:08:25,493 --> 01:08:29,373 Speaker 3: Trump should win. And he always trailed Biden or the 1225 01:08:29,453 --> 01:08:32,693 Speaker 3: Democrat in twenty sixteen, twenty twenty, so being ahead is 1226 01:08:32,733 --> 01:08:35,773 Speaker 3: a panic time for the Democrats. If he's ahead, that 1227 01:08:35,853 --> 01:08:39,333 Speaker 3: means he's ahead nationally, and you usually just throw California 1228 01:08:39,413 --> 01:08:41,533 Speaker 3: out and give those electoral college votes to you know, 1229 01:08:41,613 --> 01:08:45,693 Speaker 3: whoever runs for the Democrats. So the mid you know, 1230 01:08:45,773 --> 01:08:49,173 Speaker 3: the big, the big deciding states, the swing states are 1231 01:08:49,253 --> 01:08:54,973 Speaker 3: going to be Wisconsin, Trump's ahead, Pennsylvania trumps ahead, Arizona 1232 01:08:55,053 --> 01:09:00,213 Speaker 3: trumps ahead, Georgia Trump's ahead, Nevada trumps ahead. That I say, 1233 01:09:00,253 --> 01:09:04,373 Speaker 3: Wisconsin and Michigan and Trump, if he takes Georgia, which 1234 01:09:04,373 --> 01:09:06,813 Speaker 3: he's going to, he's but nine or ten points ahead, 1235 01:09:06,813 --> 01:09:09,053 Speaker 3: and he takes North Carolina also, so he's going to 1236 01:09:09,133 --> 01:09:11,693 Speaker 3: he's going to win those two. Then he needs to 1237 01:09:11,773 --> 01:09:17,453 Speaker 3: win I think two of Arizona, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. 1238 01:09:18,853 --> 01:09:21,693 Speaker 3: There's one more. Uh, he only needs to win two 1239 01:09:21,773 --> 01:09:24,973 Speaker 3: of those. And if Georgia he's going to win, I 1240 01:09:25,013 --> 01:09:26,853 Speaker 3: gave it. He's so far ahead in Georgia right now, 1241 01:09:26,893 --> 01:09:29,213 Speaker 3: I don't think he's gonna lose Georgia even with all 1242 01:09:29,253 --> 01:09:32,893 Speaker 3: the you know, the ballot dumps and stuff. So we're 1243 01:09:32,933 --> 01:09:35,333 Speaker 3: getting to the stage where the Democrats are thinking about 1244 01:09:35,413 --> 01:09:37,813 Speaker 3: dumping Biden. But their real problem is it's hard to 1245 01:09:37,893 --> 01:09:40,573 Speaker 3: dump Biden and not get Kamala Harris and she does worse. 1246 01:09:41,413 --> 01:09:44,373 Speaker 3: You know, if your whole political approach to the world 1247 01:09:44,533 --> 01:09:47,493 Speaker 3: is that you see everyone in group identity terms, and 1248 01:09:47,573 --> 01:09:51,013 Speaker 3: she's a woman and she's black, you can't replace her 1249 01:09:51,053 --> 01:09:54,173 Speaker 3: with Gavin Newsom. I mean, I mean a normal party 1250 01:09:54,253 --> 01:09:57,013 Speaker 3: could because they'd say Gavin Newsom's better. But if you 1251 01:09:57,533 --> 01:10:00,333 Speaker 3: see the whole world in terms of you know, the 1252 01:10:00,493 --> 01:10:02,653 Speaker 3: kind of reproductive organs you bring to the table and 1253 01:10:02,773 --> 01:10:06,813 Speaker 3: skin pigmentation, they just will not tolerate a white man 1254 01:10:06,973 --> 01:10:10,373 Speaker 3: replacing Kamala Harris. So then what do they do. Well, 1255 01:10:10,373 --> 01:10:14,333 Speaker 3: they could try for Michelle Obama, I guess. So they're 1256 01:10:14,333 --> 01:10:17,493 Speaker 3: sort of you know, they're in a hard spot. If 1257 01:10:17,533 --> 01:10:19,453 Speaker 3: the polls keep getting worse, I think they're going to 1258 01:10:19,533 --> 01:10:22,813 Speaker 3: ditch Biden. The problem is we're getting to the stage 1259 01:10:23,133 --> 01:10:26,333 Speaker 3: in time where the party can't ditch him. They'd have 1260 01:10:26,413 --> 01:10:29,093 Speaker 3: to get him to step down. And so then the 1261 01:10:29,213 --> 01:10:31,853 Speaker 3: question is, are these advisors of his who are clearly 1262 01:10:31,933 --> 01:10:34,893 Speaker 3: running everything. Are they prepared to put themselves out of 1263 01:10:34,933 --> 01:10:37,013 Speaker 3: a job by telling him to step down? I don't know. 1264 01:10:37,453 --> 01:10:40,093 Speaker 3: I don't know. It's interesting who knows what's going to happen. 1265 01:10:40,253 --> 01:10:44,293 Speaker 2: I asked somebody recently who who is running? Who's running 1266 01:10:44,293 --> 01:10:47,893 Speaker 2: the White House? And the answer was, what must be 1267 01:10:47,933 --> 01:10:48,493 Speaker 2: the Martians? 1268 01:10:51,133 --> 01:10:53,453 Speaker 3: Well, yes, I don't know. I mean, you just watched 1269 01:10:53,493 --> 01:10:55,973 Speaker 3: the clips on TV. No one can tell me that 1270 01:10:56,133 --> 01:10:58,773 Speaker 3: this man who's you know, got all of his marbles. 1271 01:10:59,373 --> 01:11:01,733 Speaker 3: He clearly doesn't. I tell you what. 1272 01:11:03,533 --> 01:11:05,773 Speaker 2: I've just about warn you out for the day. I think, 1273 01:11:06,333 --> 01:11:09,813 Speaker 2: so it's probably to wrap. 1274 01:11:10,733 --> 01:11:13,853 Speaker 3: All right, Well, I enjoy us, I keep forgetting late. 1275 01:11:13,893 --> 01:11:15,693 Speaker 3: And now where are you? Are you done in Queenstown? 1276 01:11:15,813 --> 01:11:19,813 Speaker 3: Are you in Wellington? Where are you? I'm in Auckland, Auckland. 1277 01:11:19,893 --> 01:11:22,413 Speaker 3: There we go? All right, Well, how would you say 1278 01:11:22,453 --> 01:11:24,773 Speaker 3: the new government has got off and at starts? How 1279 01:11:24,773 --> 01:11:25,653 Speaker 3: would you read them? 1280 01:11:27,613 --> 01:11:31,693 Speaker 2: I'm waiting a little bit. I can only say one 1281 01:11:32,253 --> 01:11:36,613 Speaker 2: thing in particular. I'm very grateful to the two minor parties, 1282 01:11:37,453 --> 01:11:41,893 Speaker 2: and I'm terribly grateful to have Winston Peters back. And 1283 01:11:42,053 --> 01:11:49,013 Speaker 2: I only decided that relatively recently. Well relatively shortly before 1284 01:11:49,053 --> 01:11:53,733 Speaker 2: the before the election. But I suddenly got the feeling 1285 01:11:54,573 --> 01:11:57,413 Speaker 2: that if there was a Trump type character in this country, 1286 01:11:57,573 --> 01:12:00,373 Speaker 2: it would have to be him. And he's got the 1287 01:12:00,813 --> 01:12:04,533 Speaker 2: he's got the knickknacks to do things that he's not frightened. 1288 01:12:05,893 --> 01:12:08,893 Speaker 3: Yep, that's good. Well, that's that's good to hear. And 1289 01:12:09,253 --> 01:12:12,013 Speaker 3: I think who's the Attorney general or justice ministers that 1290 01:12:12,093 --> 01:12:13,693 Speaker 3: Judith Collins. I think she's brave too. 1291 01:12:14,493 --> 01:12:19,373 Speaker 2: By the way, you mentioned Steve Coonan before Steve Coonan 1292 01:12:19,533 --> 01:12:22,173 Speaker 2: was in I've had a chance to check it out. 1293 01:12:22,493 --> 01:12:25,413 Speaker 2: Steve Conan was in podcast number one hundred and ten. 1294 01:12:26,293 --> 01:12:29,533 Speaker 2: You are podcast number two hundred and twenty nine. I 1295 01:12:29,573 --> 01:12:31,373 Speaker 2: wouldn't have thought it was that long ago that I 1296 01:12:31,413 --> 01:12:33,013 Speaker 2: spoke to Steve Coonan, but there it is. 1297 01:12:34,213 --> 01:12:36,253 Speaker 3: Well, his book was great. I really enjoyed his. 1298 01:12:36,333 --> 01:12:41,733 Speaker 2: Book indeed, and yours are worthy of pursuance as well. 1299 01:12:42,653 --> 01:12:44,373 Speaker 3: So well, that's recind leet and have a good day 1300 01:12:44,413 --> 01:12:44,813 Speaker 3: over there. 1301 01:12:45,573 --> 01:12:46,453 Speaker 2: We will talk again. 1302 01:12:47,013 --> 01:12:49,773 Speaker 3: Thank you very much, Thank you so much, Jim Podo, 1303 01:12:49,813 --> 01:12:50,173 Speaker 3: Bye bye. 1304 01:12:50,213 --> 01:13:00,613 Speaker 2: Plain Now twenty four hours after we said goodbye to 1305 01:13:00,853 --> 01:13:05,093 Speaker 2: Professor James Allen, he returns after the Supreme Court of 1306 01:13:05,133 --> 01:13:09,493 Speaker 2: the United States ruled very importantly that everybody was waiting 1307 01:13:09,573 --> 01:13:13,333 Speaker 2: for a decision on whether the State of Colorado or 1308 01:13:13,373 --> 01:13:17,413 Speaker 2: the Colorado Supreme Court could remove Donald Trump from the 1309 01:13:17,533 --> 01:13:21,613 Speaker 2: Colorado list of candidate. It was only after we finished 1310 01:13:21,693 --> 01:13:25,333 Speaker 2: yesterday that I saw the news that the court announced 1311 01:13:25,373 --> 01:13:27,893 Speaker 2: that it was going to make a statement, And then 1312 01:13:27,973 --> 01:13:32,213 Speaker 2: of course everybody was speculating on how it would turn out, 1313 01:13:32,333 --> 01:13:35,053 Speaker 2: what they would be saying. Did it come Jim as 1314 01:13:35,093 --> 01:13:35,973 Speaker 2: any surprise to you. 1315 01:13:36,973 --> 01:13:39,493 Speaker 3: Well, firstly, Leaden, thanks, thanks for getting back to me. 1316 01:13:39,613 --> 01:13:41,733 Speaker 3: I mean, it has been a whole day, so I've 1317 01:13:41,773 --> 01:13:45,533 Speaker 3: missed you. So we're back together. No, it didn't really 1318 01:13:45,653 --> 01:13:50,693 Speaker 3: because I had actually predicted and I, oh, look, if 1319 01:13:50,773 --> 01:13:53,253 Speaker 3: you stop and think about it and put aside the 1320 01:13:53,333 --> 01:13:57,573 Speaker 3: incredible left wing media for a second. In the federal system, 1321 01:13:58,093 --> 01:14:00,333 Speaker 3: and it was nine to zero on the federalism point, 1322 01:14:00,693 --> 01:14:03,373 Speaker 3: who can take a candidate off the ballot? If you 1323 01:14:03,413 --> 01:14:06,333 Speaker 3: can let the states to it, then you're going to 1324 01:14:06,493 --> 01:14:10,013 Speaker 3: end up with a whole bunch of reciprocal actions where 1325 01:14:10,053 --> 01:14:13,293 Speaker 3: each each of the fifty states is knocking candidates off. 1326 01:14:13,853 --> 01:14:16,333 Speaker 3: You know, even in a strong federal system like the US, 1327 01:14:16,613 --> 01:14:19,653 Speaker 3: this has to be a matter for the Congress, for 1328 01:14:19,733 --> 01:14:23,093 Speaker 3: the central part of the government. And so even some 1329 01:14:23,213 --> 01:14:26,573 Speaker 3: pretty liberal appointed Democrat judges, they broke nine to zero 1330 01:14:26,653 --> 01:14:29,973 Speaker 3: on the federalism point. If a candidate's going to be removed. 1331 01:14:30,413 --> 01:14:32,573 Speaker 3: And think about that for a minute. We've had a year, 1332 01:14:32,853 --> 01:14:35,653 Speaker 3: a year and a half of largely left wing media 1333 01:14:35,773 --> 01:14:39,013 Speaker 3: telling you that Trump was going to lose this And 1334 01:14:39,653 --> 01:14:42,493 Speaker 3: I just was reading yesterday Winston Peters saying, you know, 1335 01:14:42,613 --> 01:14:45,453 Speaker 3: the press, he was commenting on a bankruptcy over there 1336 01:14:45,493 --> 01:14:47,693 Speaker 3: in New Zealand. But the press has only themselves to 1337 01:14:47,773 --> 01:14:50,493 Speaker 3: blame because they've become you know, they took all this 1338 01:14:50,653 --> 01:14:52,933 Speaker 3: money from the New Zealand government and they have become 1339 01:14:53,173 --> 01:14:56,573 Speaker 3: left wing activists, and people don't want to read that anymore. 1340 01:14:56,693 --> 01:15:01,453 Speaker 3: They have stopped all skepticism. So when the Democrats and 1341 01:15:01,573 --> 01:15:03,813 Speaker 3: some pretty left wing lawyers are saying Trump's going to lose, 1342 01:15:03,933 --> 01:15:06,693 Speaker 3: nobody stopped and said, how would that work in practice? 1343 01:15:06,773 --> 01:15:09,453 Speaker 3: I mean, Trump hasn't been convicted of any thing. So 1344 01:15:09,693 --> 01:15:11,693 Speaker 3: if a state just decides they don't like you, or 1345 01:15:11,733 --> 01:15:16,573 Speaker 3: they decide that, in their view, no conviction, you've pushed 1346 01:15:16,613 --> 01:15:20,213 Speaker 3: insurrection or a riot, they can remove you from the ballot. Well, 1347 01:15:20,253 --> 01:15:23,173 Speaker 3: it's just going to be a game theory, reciprocal race 1348 01:15:23,213 --> 01:15:25,053 Speaker 3: to the bottom, and the states will be taking off 1349 01:15:25,093 --> 01:15:28,613 Speaker 3: the other candidate's parties. So it never looked plausible that 1350 01:15:28,693 --> 01:15:32,093 Speaker 3: you're going to see the Supreme Court allow Democrats States 1351 01:15:32,133 --> 01:15:35,453 Speaker 3: to remove Trump the dissent and the argument in the 1352 01:15:35,533 --> 01:15:39,413 Speaker 3: case was over what standard there would be in Congress 1353 01:15:39,493 --> 01:15:42,533 Speaker 3: for removing a candidate and the descent. They didn't want 1354 01:15:42,533 --> 01:15:43,893 Speaker 3: to deal with it, but if they did, they said 1355 01:15:43,893 --> 01:15:47,173 Speaker 3: it would be a majority of both houses. But the 1356 01:15:47,573 --> 01:15:50,453 Speaker 3: majority in the case said two thirds, and that's probably 1357 01:15:50,493 --> 01:15:53,853 Speaker 3: more in keeping with the US Constitution. Remember, you can't 1358 01:15:54,013 --> 01:15:56,613 Speaker 3: enter into a treaty in the US without getting two 1359 01:15:56,693 --> 01:16:00,733 Speaker 3: thirds support, So they take treaties seriously, and that's the 1360 01:16:00,853 --> 01:16:03,973 Speaker 3: level of support you need. In the Senate, they build 1361 01:16:04,013 --> 01:16:07,133 Speaker 3: in supermajorities in some instances, and so getting rid of 1362 01:16:07,213 --> 01:16:10,773 Speaker 3: a president's pretty So they said they'll take two thirds. 1363 01:16:11,173 --> 01:16:15,053 Speaker 3: That effectively means it's impossible. I like that because, look, 1364 01:16:15,693 --> 01:16:18,173 Speaker 3: here's the weird thing. The idea of democracy is a 1365 01:16:18,213 --> 01:16:22,813 Speaker 3: contested idea. You can have a thin version where you 1366 01:16:22,933 --> 01:16:26,213 Speaker 3: just focus on the majoritarian credentials of a government and say, 1367 01:16:26,573 --> 01:16:29,373 Speaker 3: you know, if people had a fair vote, then if 1368 01:16:29,413 --> 01:16:32,853 Speaker 3: you elect Party X. That's the democratic output. In the 1369 01:16:32,933 --> 01:16:35,853 Speaker 3: last twenty years, and especially pushed by the loyally cast, 1370 01:16:36,733 --> 01:16:41,053 Speaker 3: you have had this moral overlay. The idea of democracy 1371 01:16:41,093 --> 01:16:43,653 Speaker 3: has become more morally pregnant, so that they start with 1372 01:16:43,893 --> 01:16:46,973 Speaker 3: how the government was chosen and then they build in, well, 1373 01:16:47,533 --> 01:16:50,493 Speaker 3: is this person rights respecting? Is this party rights respecting? 1374 01:16:50,533 --> 01:16:53,493 Speaker 3: Are they morally good enough? And that's what the Democrats 1375 01:16:53,493 --> 01:16:55,573 Speaker 3: are trying to do. They're trying to take this idea 1376 01:16:55,613 --> 01:16:59,653 Speaker 3: of democracy and saying we don't like Donald Trump morally 1377 01:17:00,053 --> 01:17:04,053 Speaker 3: and so electing him is undemocratic. But think about it 1378 01:17:04,333 --> 01:17:07,173 Speaker 3: coming up in November. Everyone knows what Trump did in 1379 01:17:07,253 --> 01:17:12,053 Speaker 3: January sixth, it's been completely published, and your choices. Are 1380 01:17:12,093 --> 01:17:14,173 Speaker 3: we going to let one hundred and fifty million people 1381 01:17:14,573 --> 01:17:17,853 Speaker 3: make a call on what is effectively a political set 1382 01:17:17,893 --> 01:17:22,253 Speaker 3: of facts and let them decide, or are we going 1383 01:17:22,333 --> 01:17:24,973 Speaker 3: to let a few lawyers and a couple of judges 1384 01:17:25,053 --> 01:17:29,213 Speaker 3: decide who can be president on a majoritarian basis five 1385 01:17:29,253 --> 01:17:32,853 Speaker 3: beats four? And they want to say that's the democratic way. 1386 01:17:33,053 --> 01:17:37,253 Speaker 3: It's laughable to me that that, you know, so the 1387 01:17:37,293 --> 01:17:41,093 Speaker 3: democratic way to deal with this on the thin procedural 1388 01:17:41,173 --> 01:17:44,573 Speaker 3: understanding of democracy has just let people vote in November. 1389 01:17:45,293 --> 01:17:47,733 Speaker 3: And the sort of line you're getting from the New 1390 01:17:47,813 --> 01:17:51,253 Speaker 3: York Times and the CNN is, you know, we have 1391 01:17:51,373 --> 01:17:54,173 Speaker 3: to protect democracy by not letting people vote for the 1392 01:17:54,253 --> 01:17:57,133 Speaker 3: preferred candidate who's five to eight points ahead in the polls. 1393 01:17:57,773 --> 01:18:00,573 Speaker 3: You know, the Babylon b had a great sort of spoof, 1394 01:18:01,453 --> 01:18:04,093 Speaker 3: a spoof piece. There's been a major blow to democracy 1395 01:18:04,173 --> 01:18:06,293 Speaker 3: because the Supreme Court is ruled that voters get to 1396 01:18:06,373 --> 01:18:09,813 Speaker 3: vote for their preferred candidate. Again, he hasn't been convicted 1397 01:18:09,853 --> 01:18:10,693 Speaker 3: of anything. 1398 01:18:12,013 --> 01:18:13,493 Speaker 2: But he hasn't been challenged with anything. 1399 01:18:13,693 --> 01:18:15,173 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm in charge of me. And they want to 1400 01:18:15,213 --> 01:18:17,733 Speaker 3: take him off the ballot and they want to bankrupt him. 1401 01:18:18,213 --> 01:18:21,733 Speaker 3: And this is third world stuff, you know, it's like Pakistan. 1402 01:18:22,933 --> 01:18:24,693 Speaker 2: I've had the impression there for some time that they 1403 01:18:24,773 --> 01:18:30,213 Speaker 2: think that the unique and above everything, and that they 1404 01:18:30,253 --> 01:18:33,973 Speaker 2: can mangle, they can mangle any anything they like to 1405 01:18:34,853 --> 01:18:36,013 Speaker 2: get the result that they want. 1406 01:18:36,293 --> 01:18:40,893 Speaker 3: Well, it's because you become convinced of your own moral superiority. 1407 01:18:40,933 --> 01:18:43,493 Speaker 3: It really broils down to a certain sense of sanctimony, 1408 01:18:44,013 --> 01:18:45,613 Speaker 3: and you know, believe in your own pr and you 1409 01:18:45,693 --> 01:18:49,493 Speaker 3: feel that it's fundamentally undemocratic in the sense that you 1410 01:18:49,933 --> 01:18:53,133 Speaker 3: have this sense that what would those poor slubs who 1411 01:18:53,173 --> 01:18:55,773 Speaker 3: are plumbers and secretaries know about the world. I mean, 1412 01:18:55,813 --> 01:18:58,813 Speaker 3: I'm I'm mocking them, But the view is, well, I'm 1413 01:18:58,853 --> 01:19:01,453 Speaker 3: a sophistic keid, I've got to I've got a higher degree, 1414 01:19:01,973 --> 01:19:04,653 Speaker 3: and really my view should count for more than their views. 1415 01:19:04,693 --> 01:19:08,253 Speaker 3: And you know at heart that's a version of aristocracy. 1416 01:19:09,013 --> 01:19:11,093 Speaker 3: It is not a version of democracy. If you think 1417 01:19:12,173 --> 01:19:15,733 Speaker 3: democracy is about letting the numbers count, your say counts 1418 01:19:15,773 --> 01:19:17,973 Speaker 3: for as much as the plumber next door, and the 1419 01:19:18,013 --> 01:19:20,733 Speaker 3: fact you did a women's studies degree, or you know, 1420 01:19:20,893 --> 01:19:24,013 Speaker 3: you immersed yourself in the latest French deconstruction as person 1421 01:19:24,053 --> 01:19:27,293 Speaker 3: at university. It doesn't really make you a better moral beat. 1422 01:19:27,773 --> 01:19:30,213 Speaker 3: And there's no reason why you should think that those 1423 01:19:30,293 --> 01:19:32,293 Speaker 3: sorts of people should get to shut everyone else out. 1424 01:19:32,413 --> 01:19:34,893 Speaker 3: All right, So I think the Supreme Court did a 1425 01:19:34,933 --> 01:19:35,773 Speaker 3: good job on this one. 1426 01:19:35,813 --> 01:19:37,453 Speaker 2: All right, So you believe that this would be the 1427 01:19:37,493 --> 01:19:40,973 Speaker 2: result nine zero. I wasn't quite so sure about the 1428 01:19:41,333 --> 01:19:42,973 Speaker 2: nine zero, but I knew it. 1429 01:19:43,053 --> 01:19:45,653 Speaker 3: Well, I'm talking only about the federalism point, yes, right, 1430 01:19:45,733 --> 01:19:48,933 Speaker 3: So they can't articulate the other view you'd be letting 1431 01:19:48,973 --> 01:19:51,133 Speaker 3: the states destroy the election. 1432 01:19:51,253 --> 01:19:55,293 Speaker 2: All right, So the three most liberal justices all women, 1433 01:19:55,453 --> 01:20:00,293 Speaker 2: so Domaia, Kagan and Brown Jackson, they issued their own Well, 1434 01:20:00,333 --> 01:20:04,373 Speaker 2: they went, they went for the federalism bit, and then 1435 01:20:04,453 --> 01:20:06,813 Speaker 2: they diverted and they wouldn't go as far. They said 1436 01:20:06,813 --> 01:20:09,733 Speaker 2: that the court was going, what do they mean by that? 1437 01:20:10,093 --> 01:20:12,653 Speaker 3: Well, they didn't want to go with the two thirds 1438 01:20:12,893 --> 01:20:16,853 Speaker 3: of Congress. So the federalism point is which level of 1439 01:20:16,933 --> 01:20:19,533 Speaker 3: government can take someone off the ballot? And they all 1440 01:20:19,613 --> 01:20:23,453 Speaker 3: agreed it's not the states, because you get this patchwork 1441 01:20:23,533 --> 01:20:26,333 Speaker 3: of candidates being thrown off the ballot and that was 1442 01:20:26,373 --> 01:20:30,013 Speaker 3: always so he wins on that point, nine to zero. 1443 01:20:30,733 --> 01:20:34,173 Speaker 3: And then you get speculation, well, okay, so it's it's 1444 01:20:34,213 --> 01:20:37,253 Speaker 3: the federal government in Washington that can remove a candidate. 1445 01:20:37,333 --> 01:20:41,853 Speaker 3: What level of support do you need to do that? 1446 01:20:42,573 --> 01:20:44,933 Speaker 3: And I think the descent in a way wanted to 1447 01:20:45,053 --> 01:20:47,573 Speaker 3: just leave the issue. So if it came up and 1448 01:20:47,693 --> 01:20:50,413 Speaker 3: it became a live issue because Congress tried to get 1449 01:20:50,493 --> 01:20:52,213 Speaker 3: rid of them, then they would deal with it. But 1450 01:20:52,333 --> 01:20:55,493 Speaker 3: the majority, the five in the majority, said no, we're 1451 01:20:55,533 --> 01:20:57,813 Speaker 3: going to look at it now, and you need a 1452 01:20:57,893 --> 01:21:01,133 Speaker 3: supermajority two thirds two thirds of both I can't remember 1453 01:21:01,133 --> 01:21:02,653 Speaker 3: I flipped through it. I think it's two thirds of 1454 01:21:02,893 --> 01:21:05,293 Speaker 3: both houses maybe, So it's basically impossible. 1455 01:21:05,613 --> 01:21:08,573 Speaker 2: So that means that the story that I read with 1456 01:21:08,733 --> 01:21:14,373 Speaker 2: regard to the Democrats looking to manufacture a statute that 1457 01:21:14,493 --> 01:21:18,453 Speaker 2: would give the states power and take to take Trump off, 1458 01:21:18,533 --> 01:21:19,133 Speaker 2: it won't work. 1459 01:21:20,253 --> 01:21:22,493 Speaker 3: It's essentially the same as the two impeachment to Trump. 1460 01:21:22,533 --> 01:21:25,013 Speaker 3: It's a political action. You're trying to rally the base 1461 01:21:25,093 --> 01:21:28,293 Speaker 3: and win over undecided. There's no there's no thought that. 1462 01:21:28,453 --> 01:21:29,853 Speaker 3: I mean, they wouldn't get it through even on a 1463 01:21:29,893 --> 01:21:32,973 Speaker 3: majority basis because the Republicans control the House right now. 1464 01:21:33,453 --> 01:21:36,893 Speaker 3: So you know, it's just it's it's fundraising, it's all 1465 01:21:36,933 --> 01:21:38,893 Speaker 3: those sorts of things. So yeah, you know it's probably 1466 01:21:38,893 --> 01:21:40,373 Speaker 3: has some political purpose, all right. 1467 01:21:40,413 --> 01:21:43,853 Speaker 2: So two more things, both from the same category. The 1468 01:21:43,973 --> 01:21:47,613 Speaker 2: thinking is that Roberts, who we discussed at length yesterday, 1469 01:21:48,013 --> 01:21:50,733 Speaker 2: and we both had our opinions and they were somewhat similar. 1470 01:21:51,293 --> 01:21:54,773 Speaker 2: But Roberts may have to throw or maybe intending this 1471 01:21:55,133 --> 01:21:58,693 Speaker 2: our quote, throw a bone to Jack Smith, the prosecutor 1472 01:21:59,173 --> 01:22:03,013 Speaker 2: over the over the the papers case down in Florida. 1473 01:22:03,653 --> 01:22:06,133 Speaker 3: Well, I don't know everyone speculating, but I mean, he's 1474 01:22:06,213 --> 01:22:08,213 Speaker 3: only one vote. I mean, that's the thing about top 1475 01:22:08,333 --> 01:22:10,093 Speaker 3: courts is you have a chief justice, but the chief 1476 01:22:10,253 --> 01:22:12,773 Speaker 3: justice has no more say than anybody else in the court. 1477 01:22:13,533 --> 01:22:17,773 Speaker 3: They have a little bit of administrative sway, but you 1478 01:22:17,853 --> 01:22:20,973 Speaker 3: know he can't he can't. He doesn't get to make 1479 01:22:21,053 --> 01:22:23,853 Speaker 3: calls on his own. So the real question I think 1480 01:22:23,933 --> 01:22:26,733 Speaker 3: in that case is whether the Supreme Court. I think 1481 01:22:26,773 --> 01:22:29,053 Speaker 3: the hearings are in April. How long do they sit 1482 01:22:29,173 --> 01:22:33,173 Speaker 3: on their opinion. So even if they say yes, the 1483 01:22:33,333 --> 01:22:35,693 Speaker 3: Smith case can proceed, if they don't say that till 1484 01:22:35,813 --> 01:22:39,653 Speaker 3: July or August, it can't happen before the election. Okay, 1485 01:22:40,213 --> 01:22:42,933 Speaker 3: So that's all Rob I mean said Trump that Trump. Well, 1486 01:22:43,133 --> 01:22:46,453 Speaker 3: Roberts has to deal with the conservative wing of the 1487 01:22:46,493 --> 01:22:50,013 Speaker 3: court too, And you know they're good, they said they're 1488 01:22:50,013 --> 01:22:52,333 Speaker 3: going to expedite it. But I mean the problem is 1489 01:22:52,373 --> 01:22:55,973 Speaker 3: that there's been Democrat lawyers pointing out that that there 1490 01:22:55,973 --> 01:22:59,773 Speaker 3: were six hundred Republican votes in the primary in Washington 1491 01:22:59,973 --> 01:23:03,013 Speaker 3: of a couple hundred thousand. They get no votes. The 1492 01:23:03,093 --> 01:23:06,333 Speaker 3: Republicans forget Trump, it's three ninety four percent, And there 1493 01:23:06,373 --> 01:23:09,973 Speaker 3: were some big Democrat lawyers saying it's it's the greatest 1494 01:23:10,333 --> 01:23:13,213 Speaker 3: jury pool in the world for us. He was caught 1495 01:23:13,533 --> 01:23:16,893 Speaker 3: saying that the greatest jury pool. Jack Smith brought the 1496 01:23:16,973 --> 01:23:20,613 Speaker 3: case from Washington, d C. For a reason, And of course, 1497 01:23:20,773 --> 01:23:24,133 Speaker 3: you know this is all on the immunity point. There 1498 01:23:24,173 --> 01:23:26,413 Speaker 3: are other aspects of the case. But I would to 1499 01:23:26,493 --> 01:23:28,453 Speaker 3: be honest as a republic I would not want to 1500 01:23:28,653 --> 01:23:31,333 Speaker 3: face trial in Washington, d C. I think you have. 1501 01:23:31,653 --> 01:23:33,333 Speaker 3: I mean, we saw what happened in March time. You 1502 01:23:33,373 --> 01:23:35,453 Speaker 3: have zero chance of winning. And at the back of 1503 01:23:35,533 --> 01:23:37,973 Speaker 3: the mind everyone knows, you know, what should happen that 1504 01:23:38,093 --> 01:23:41,533 Speaker 3: even things up is that they should start charging Democrats 1505 01:23:41,573 --> 01:23:44,733 Speaker 3: in sort of rural Texas. Get the jury pool from 1506 01:23:44,813 --> 01:23:48,333 Speaker 3: rural Texas. Yes, you know that's that's and everyone, you know, 1507 01:23:48,413 --> 01:23:52,653 Speaker 3: the New York Times would be going crazy. They're crazy already. Uh. 1508 01:23:53,013 --> 01:23:56,613 Speaker 2: The last the last point is one of the last 1509 01:23:56,693 --> 01:23:59,093 Speaker 2: things you said yesterday was it's a bit early to 1510 01:23:59,493 --> 01:24:03,053 Speaker 2: make a call on Amy Kearney Barrett. She went independent. 1511 01:24:03,813 --> 01:24:05,653 Speaker 2: What did she achieve by that? 1512 01:24:05,893 --> 01:24:08,693 Speaker 3: And decided I don't know. I only had only chance 1513 01:24:08,733 --> 01:24:10,493 Speaker 3: to flip through it. I mean, she side it looks 1514 01:24:10,573 --> 01:24:13,733 Speaker 3: like with the minority, but I don't know what she's 1515 01:24:13,733 --> 01:24:15,573 Speaker 3: trying to do there, but again she on the main 1516 01:24:15,653 --> 01:24:20,533 Speaker 3: point she was with the nine zero. Yeah, I don't know. 1517 01:24:20,853 --> 01:24:24,293 Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, so we watched and we waite, and 1518 01:24:24,653 --> 01:24:26,493 Speaker 2: it gets even more interesting, would you not agree? 1519 01:24:27,853 --> 01:24:30,373 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, what is it? Eight months to go? It's 1520 01:24:31,333 --> 01:24:34,093 Speaker 3: I mean, the really interesting question is how do you 1521 01:24:34,133 --> 01:24:37,133 Speaker 3: get rid of Biden if you're a Democrat. And the 1522 01:24:37,213 --> 01:24:40,053 Speaker 3: problem I think for them is that there are two 1523 01:24:40,533 --> 01:24:43,093 Speaker 3: camps sitting behind Biden. You've got the Obama camp in 1524 01:24:43,133 --> 01:24:45,693 Speaker 3: the Clinton camp. The Obama camp wants the open borders, 1525 01:24:45,733 --> 01:24:49,533 Speaker 3: they want undermine American support for Israel, and the Clinton 1526 01:24:49,573 --> 01:24:51,613 Speaker 3: camp is big on the war in Ukraine. They like 1527 01:24:51,853 --> 01:24:55,693 Speaker 3: all of the sort of establishment DC stuff. They would 1528 01:24:55,773 --> 01:24:58,573 Speaker 3: close the border. They have to agree. See, both of 1529 01:24:58,613 --> 01:25:00,933 Speaker 3: them are getting sort of what they want from Biden. Really, 1530 01:25:01,053 --> 01:25:03,133 Speaker 3: I don't think he's making any decisions. And it's not 1531 01:25:03,213 --> 01:25:05,173 Speaker 3: going to be so easy to get rid of Biden. 1532 01:25:05,413 --> 01:25:07,413 Speaker 3: I've heard this from a Washington d C. Friend who 1533 01:25:07,493 --> 01:25:11,333 Speaker 3: the Republic said, because the two sides hate each other. Really, 1534 01:25:11,653 --> 01:25:13,933 Speaker 3: there's no love loss between the Hillary Clinton and the 1535 01:25:14,253 --> 01:25:17,053 Speaker 3: Obama camps. And to get rid of Biden, they have 1536 01:25:17,173 --> 01:25:19,053 Speaker 3: to agree that they have to get somebody, they'll give 1537 01:25:19,093 --> 01:25:21,133 Speaker 3: them at least as much as what they've got under Biden. 1538 01:25:21,853 --> 01:25:25,093 Speaker 3: So yes, you know, people toss around Michelle Obama, but 1539 01:25:25,133 --> 01:25:27,293 Speaker 3: I'm I'm not one hundred percent sure she can get 1540 01:25:27,373 --> 01:25:29,773 Speaker 3: through the A lot of the Biden people don't like her, 1541 01:25:30,373 --> 01:25:33,133 Speaker 3: and the Clinton people hate her, and so who are 1542 01:25:33,133 --> 01:25:36,693 Speaker 3: you going to pack? Nobody wants Kamala, So we'll see. 1543 01:25:36,733 --> 01:25:40,573 Speaker 3: As long as Biden's breathing, the two sides that are 1544 01:25:40,573 --> 01:25:43,973 Speaker 3: sitting in the back, they have a you know they're 1545 01:25:44,013 --> 01:25:47,173 Speaker 3: getting something. I don't know. It's I agree that Biden 1546 01:25:47,253 --> 01:25:49,853 Speaker 3: right now. So if you look at where they stood 1547 01:25:49,893 --> 01:25:53,413 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty comparing net favorable, so where you just 1548 01:25:53,493 --> 01:25:55,653 Speaker 3: ask people, what do you think of Trump as a person? 1549 01:25:56,373 --> 01:25:59,333 Speaker 3: Trump was a forty I think it was off the 1550 01:25:59,413 --> 01:26:01,733 Speaker 3: top of my head. I think it was forty three favorable, 1551 01:26:01,813 --> 01:26:05,893 Speaker 3: fifty four unfavorable. Four years later, he's forty four favorable, 1552 01:26:06,213 --> 01:26:09,093 Speaker 3: fifty four unfavor. He hasn't moved at all. Nothing is 1553 01:26:09,173 --> 01:26:11,333 Speaker 3: going to move people's views on Trump. If you just say, 1554 01:26:11,373 --> 01:26:14,133 Speaker 3: what do you think of the guy? Biden has gone 1555 01:26:14,213 --> 01:26:16,093 Speaker 3: from a net I think he was, you know, a 1556 01:26:16,173 --> 01:26:19,733 Speaker 3: net he was plus eleven or twelve and twenty and 1557 01:26:19,813 --> 01:26:23,133 Speaker 3: now he's he's way lower. So Trump is ahead of 1558 01:26:23,533 --> 01:26:27,093 Speaker 3: Biden right now on favorability by twenty points. So Trump's 1559 01:26:27,173 --> 01:26:31,613 Speaker 3: minus ten and Biden's minus thirty. And that's what's changed. 1560 01:26:32,413 --> 01:26:34,693 Speaker 3: Everyone's locked in on Trump. It doesn't matter how much 1561 01:26:34,733 --> 01:26:37,453 Speaker 3: money people spend. Some people hate him, but they're going 1562 01:26:37,493 --> 01:26:39,373 Speaker 3: to vote for him because they hate Biden. Moore. And 1563 01:26:39,533 --> 01:26:41,813 Speaker 3: right now, that's why Trump's gone up in the polls. 1564 01:26:41,853 --> 01:26:44,493 Speaker 3: It's people haven't changed their views on Trump. What they have. 1565 01:26:45,013 --> 01:26:46,853 Speaker 3: You know, people love them and people hate him, but 1566 01:26:46,893 --> 01:26:49,293 Speaker 3: some of the people hate him hate Biden more now 1567 01:26:50,053 --> 01:26:53,373 Speaker 3: and you know he's minus twenty to Trump on favorability. 1568 01:26:53,573 --> 01:26:58,893 Speaker 3: So twenty percent of Americans preferred Trump to Biden on favorability. 1569 01:26:59,173 --> 01:27:00,653 Speaker 3: That's not a political that say, like what do you 1570 01:27:00,693 --> 01:27:03,573 Speaker 3: think of a guy? And that's not from a high 1571 01:27:03,613 --> 01:27:06,013 Speaker 3: base for Trump. So that's what the trouble real. The 1572 01:27:06,093 --> 01:27:09,253 Speaker 3: real question is can the Democrats to get rid of Biden? 1573 01:27:09,293 --> 01:27:10,933 Speaker 3: And if they do, are they going to make things worse? 1574 01:27:11,493 --> 01:27:14,373 Speaker 2: Well, time will tell, Time will tell. It's a great 1575 01:27:14,453 --> 01:27:18,533 Speaker 2: saying ye all right and time later time has gone. 1576 01:27:18,573 --> 01:27:19,853 Speaker 2: Appreciate it. Thank you so much. 1577 01:27:20,013 --> 01:27:21,653 Speaker 3: All right, And let me say you were right about 1578 01:27:21,733 --> 01:27:25,293 Speaker 3: Peters everything he's been saying about the press. Spot on, yes, 1579 01:27:26,173 --> 01:27:27,133 Speaker 3: spot on, yes. 1580 01:27:27,493 --> 01:27:29,613 Speaker 2: But where does then the question is, and let's not 1581 01:27:29,653 --> 01:27:31,453 Speaker 2: go any further into it, but then and then the 1582 01:27:31,533 --> 01:27:35,853 Speaker 2: question is, with the with the press under assault, where 1583 01:27:35,893 --> 01:27:37,933 Speaker 2: does that where does that leave us in the in 1584 01:27:38,053 --> 01:27:42,293 Speaker 2: the democratic range of being fully informed? 1585 01:27:43,053 --> 01:27:46,213 Speaker 3: Well, luckily we have top level podcasters like you, Layton. 1586 01:27:46,333 --> 01:27:49,693 Speaker 3: So that's that's that's a nice little respite. 1587 01:27:49,733 --> 01:27:52,253 Speaker 2: Anyway, It's not me, it's not me, Jim, it's the guests, 1588 01:27:52,453 --> 01:28:12,613 Speaker 2: and I thank you, Conee you later. Now I'm doing 1589 01:28:12,653 --> 01:28:16,013 Speaker 2: it a little differently this year. At the end of 1590 01:28:16,133 --> 01:28:19,653 Speaker 2: the replay, I usually have a few words to say, 1591 01:28:19,893 --> 01:28:22,253 Speaker 2: and every year I have to struggle to think up 1592 01:28:22,293 --> 01:28:25,693 Speaker 2: what the appropriate thing is to put in this particular plot. 1593 01:28:26,533 --> 01:28:29,293 Speaker 2: So I've decided to give myself a break and do 1594 01:28:29,453 --> 01:28:31,693 Speaker 2: one that covers all of them. So if you've heard 1595 01:28:31,773 --> 01:28:35,573 Speaker 2: this before, you can turn it off because you've heard it, 1596 01:28:36,053 --> 01:28:37,733 Speaker 2: because it's going to be the same one for each 1597 01:28:37,773 --> 01:28:41,613 Speaker 2: of the seven replays. Now, if this is the first one, 1598 01:28:41,973 --> 01:28:45,773 Speaker 2: then I trust that you're having a wonderful holiday. If 1599 01:28:45,773 --> 01:28:48,613 Speaker 2: you're not on holiday yet, your time will come. Rest assured. 1600 01:28:49,453 --> 01:28:54,133 Speaker 2: I have enjoyed doing these because re listening to them myself, 1601 01:28:54,653 --> 01:28:56,573 Speaker 2: I get more out of them and I see things, 1602 01:28:56,733 --> 01:28:59,693 Speaker 2: or I should say, I hear things that I might 1603 01:28:59,733 --> 01:29:01,693 Speaker 2: have got slightly wrong or I could have done better, 1604 01:29:01,973 --> 01:29:05,413 Speaker 2: So it's a learning curve as well. Anyway, we will 1605 01:29:05,493 --> 01:29:09,373 Speaker 2: be back for the next one a week from this 1606 01:29:09,573 --> 01:29:13,293 Speaker 2: particular release, unless, of course it's the last one, which 1607 01:29:13,373 --> 01:29:16,653 Speaker 2: is on the twenty ninth of January, and that'll be 1608 01:29:16,693 --> 01:29:20,373 Speaker 2: the end of this replay series. Add on February five, 1609 01:29:20,773 --> 01:29:24,493 Speaker 2: we shall return with fresh content in the meantime. At 1610 01:29:24,533 --> 01:29:26,973 Speaker 2: any stage us drop us on notes if you've got 1611 01:29:27,053 --> 01:29:29,773 Speaker 2: comment that you'd like to make later at newstalksb dot 1612 01:29:29,853 --> 01:29:32,893 Speaker 2: co dot enzend and Carolyn at newstalksb dot co dot 1613 01:29:33,333 --> 01:29:36,653 Speaker 2: nz and we shall talk soon. 1614 01:29:44,613 --> 01:29:48,213 Speaker 1: Thank you for more from News Talks at b Listen 1615 01:29:48,333 --> 01:29:51,253 Speaker 1: live on air or online, and keep our shows with 1616 01:29:51,413 --> 01:29:54,493 Speaker 1: you wherever you go with our podcast on iHeartRadio.