Speaker 1: Gilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is a bonus episode
Speaker 1: of The front Page, a daily podcast presented by the
Speaker 1: New Zealand Herald. A terrorism charge has been laid against
Speaker 1: a New Zealander who allegedly traveled overseas to join Islamic
Speaker 1: State a decade ago. Mark John Taylor, also known as
Speaker 1: Muhammad Daniel, was charged under the Terrorism Suppression Act this morning.
Speaker 1: Charging Documents filed in the Wellington District Court state he's
Speaker 1: being accused of participating in a group in Syria, namely
Speaker 1: the Islamic State and the Levant or Isle, between November
Speaker 1: twenty ninth, twenty fourteen and December twenty fourth, twenty eighteen.
Speaker 1: It said he's believed to have joined the groups for
Speaker 1: the purpose of enhancing the ability of them to carry
Speaker 1: out or participate in one or more tear terrorist acts
Speaker 1: intended to cause the death or injury to one or
Speaker 1: more persons in one or more countries. It said it
Speaker 1: was for the purpose of advancing an ideological, political, or
Speaker 1: religious cause with the intention of inducing terror in a
Speaker 1: civilian population, knowing or being reckless. Whether isol is a
Speaker 1: designated terrorist identity. He faces a maximum penalty of fourteen
Speaker 1: years in prison. Police Director of National Security, Detective Superintendent
Speaker 1: Sean Hanson has confirmed police think he still overseas. The
Speaker 1: charge relates to alleged participation in the Islamic State in
Speaker 1: Iraq and the levant or isol to enhance their ability
Speaker 1: to carry out or participate in terrorist acts in one
Speaker 1: or more countries. He said. The police investigation, which spans
Speaker 1: more than ten years, is continuing and police recently received
Speaker 1: Crown law approval to prosecute. He remains a New Zealand
Speaker 1: citizen and should he return to New Zealand, Hanson said
Speaker 1: he will be brought to justice for his alleged involvement
Speaker 1: with a designated terrorist organization. Police are not seeking extradition, however,
Speaker 1: in the event he wishes to return to New Zealand,
Speaker 1: this will provide an appropriate mechanism to manage his return.
Speaker 1: It's understood Taylor was captured by Kurdish forces in northern
Speaker 1: Syria in late twenty eighteen early twenty nineteen. In twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: a Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade spokesperson told me
Speaker 1: the circumstances of foreign terrorist fighters detained in Syria are
Speaker 1: extremely complex, as New Zealand does not have a diplomatic
Speaker 1: presence in Syria. The ability of the government to assist
Speaker 1: citizens is severely limited and it's very difficult to get
Speaker 1: clear information, they said.
Speaker 2: Within the past couple of hours. A New Zealander has
Speaker 2: been named as a global terrorist by the United States
Speaker 2: State Department. His name is Mark John Taylor, and he's
Speaker 2: been fighting with ISIS and Syria since twenty fourteen. He's
Speaker 2: also used social media to encourage terror attacks here and
Speaker 2: in Australia.
Speaker 1: So who is Mark John Taylor. Taylor was raised in
Speaker 1: Hamilton and has also been known as Mohammad Daniel and
Speaker 1: Abu Abdul Rahman. Taylor traveled from New Zealand to Syria
Speaker 1: in twenty fourteen to join Islamic State. The same year,
Speaker 1: he posted a photo online of his burnt New Zealand
Speaker 1: passport and declared he was on a one way trip
Speaker 1: with no intention of returning home. Earlier, in two thousand
Speaker 1: and nine, he had tried to gain access to an
Speaker 1: al Qaeda stronghold close to the Afghanistan border, but was
Speaker 1: arrested by Pakistan authorities. The New Zealand government subsequently subjected
Speaker 1: him to travel restrictions. He left New Zealand again in
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, and worked in Indonesia for two years as
Speaker 1: an English teacher before entering Syria across the two Turkish
Speaker 1: border as a soldier for Allah. In twenty fifteen, the
Speaker 1: US government declared Taylor a global terrorist after he encouraged
Speaker 1: attacks in Australia and New Zealand and appeared in an
Speaker 1: Islamic state propaganda video. He earned the moniker of the
Speaker 1: bumbling Jihadi after mistakenly revealing the location of ISIS fighters
Speaker 1: on Twitter after failing to turn off a tracking function
Speaker 1: on his phone. He deleted forty five posts on the
Speaker 1: social media website after they apparently showed he was with
Speaker 1: ISIS in Kafar Roma. He apparently spent fifty days in
Speaker 1: an Islamic state prison over that incident. Earlier, and while
Speaker 1: in war ravaged Aleppo, Taylor claimed to have been in
Speaker 1: touch with the New Zealand government in a bid to
Speaker 1: get a new passport after burning his last one. In
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation or ABC, reported that
Speaker 1: he had been captured and imprisoned by Kurdish forces. He
Speaker 1: told the ABC he had surrendered to the forces because
Speaker 1: life had become unbearable and that he was in a pickle.
Speaker 1: There was no food, no money, basic services were pretty
Speaker 1: much collapsed, he said. Taylor claimed he lived with the
Speaker 1: extremist group for five years as a guard, not a fighter,
Speaker 1: and joining the group wasn't what he had anticipated. He
Speaker 1: told the ABC that during his time with the Islamic State,
Speaker 1: he witnessed a number of beheadings and executions. They had
Speaker 1: a lady. They took her out of a truck and
Speaker 1: shot her in the back of the head. There was
Speaker 1: a big crowd gathering around. I asked, what's going on,
Speaker 1: but no one answered, he said. The other time, I
Speaker 1: was living in SUSA and they had someone crucified with
Speaker 1: a sign around his neck, but I didn't know what
Speaker 1: it read. I couldn't understand the Arabic. He also complained
Speaker 1: to the ABC about not being able to afford a
Speaker 1: female slave, saying it cost about four thousand dollars US
Speaker 1: to buy an older woman, and to buy a decent one,
Speaker 1: he said, you'd need at least ten or twenty thousand
Speaker 1: dollars US. So when Taylor re emerged in twenty nineteen
Speaker 1: after speaking to the ABC from behind bars, then Prime
Speaker 1: Minister Desindra A Durn said he was our problem and
Speaker 1: we have to accept that. Given Taylor only has New
Speaker 1: Zealand citizenship, revoking it would make him stateless. While a
Speaker 1: Durn said the government would make no effort to get
Speaker 1: him back to New Zealand, she said if he were
Speaker 1: to find his way to Turkey and to seek a
Speaker 1: temporary travel document, New Zealand cannot make him someone else's problem.
Speaker 1: In twenty nineteen, the Terrorism Suppression Control Order's Bill was
Speaker 1: passed into law with the intention of keeping the New
Speaker 1: Zealand public safe if a person involved in terrorism related
Speaker 1: activities overseas returns to the country. Then Justice Minister Andrew
Speaker 1: Little said of that legislation that it was designed to
Speaker 1: prevent terrorism and support deradicalization in a way that is
Speaker 1: concealed distant with New Zealand's human rights laws. For some
Speaker 1: more insight into this case, we're joined now on the
Speaker 1: front page by Massi University Distinguished Professor Paul spoon Leaf. Paul,
Speaker 1: how unprecedented are these charges?
Speaker 3: Very I'm not aware that anybody has been charged while
Speaker 3: they're overseas. I mean, we clearly have a series of
Speaker 3: acts beginning in two thousand and two and updated in
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen and then in twenty twenty two, which identify
Speaker 3: who would be regarded as a terrorist threat in some
Speaker 3: of the steps that ought to be taken. But this
Speaker 3: is somebody who's still overseas and appears might still be
Speaker 3: in Assyrian prison, although that's going to be an interesting question.
Speaker 3: And I think it probably anticipates that person traveling on
Speaker 3: a New Zealand passport or coming back to New Zealand.
Speaker 3: So I think it's a peremptory move, but it's is
Speaker 3: a very unusual.
Speaker 1: Move dead police. I have to lay these charges just
Speaker 1: in case he did make it back to New Zealand,
Speaker 1: say on travel documents or something, because he did burn
Speaker 1: his passport back in twenty fourteen apparently and posted photos
Speaker 1: online of his burnt New Zealand passport. So if he
Speaker 1: has made his way to say the Turkish embassy and
Speaker 1: gotten travel documents to return to New Zealand, is this
Speaker 1: just another mechanism that police can use to kind of
Speaker 1: catch him at the border.
Speaker 3: Yes. There was a discussion at the time when the
Speaker 3: Prime Minister Descender Durnwade in and said, even if he
Speaker 3: has burned his passport, he is still a New Zealand citizen,
Speaker 3: so we need to give him the rights of that citizenship. However,
Speaker 3: we've also in parallel got obligations under the Terrorism Suppression Act.
Speaker 3: So I think it's a move to try and make
Speaker 3: sure that if he comes back to New Zealand, under
Speaker 3: this Act you can actually restrict movements and rights, and
Speaker 3: you can do it for two year period, and I
Speaker 3: think it's designed to do that. Now, what's interesting about
Speaker 3: this is that under the Act you apply to the
Speaker 3: Police Commissioner, he makes a ruling and then of course
Speaker 3: the courts can do can lay the charges. Normally, name
Speaker 3: is automatically suppressed and it can only be lifted by
Speaker 3: the courts, and this is clearly what's happened. So we've
Speaker 3: got a list of the organizations that are deemed to
Speaker 3: be terrorists. Islamic State is one of those, and earlier
Speaker 3: this year it was that designation of it being a
Speaker 3: terrorist organization was renewed. On the list of designated terrorist organizations.
Speaker 3: We have one individual, which is the christ shooter. So
Speaker 3: it's not only unusual in terms of the person being
Speaker 3: overseas and anticipating perhaps a return or perhaps accessing in
Speaker 3: his own passport. But it's also that we now have
Speaker 3: an identified person who has now had charges laid against
Speaker 3: them as an.
Speaker 1: Individual in terms of so he went over apparently to
Speaker 1: Syria in twenty fourteen. It seems to me like the
Speaker 1: two thousands and twenty tens especially, there were a lot
Speaker 1: of not only New Zealand citizens, but citizens from all
Speaker 1: over the world traveling to the likes of Syria because
Speaker 1: they had been radicalized online. I mean, how does that happen.
Speaker 3: It's an interesting dynamic because you know, we've got to
Speaker 3: struggle with this as a society because it's not simply
Speaker 3: those who have been recruited to Islamic and terrorist organizations,
Speaker 3: but it's also of caused people such as the Christian shooter,
Speaker 3: who were also recruited and radicalized online. And it's very
Speaker 3: much a function of our contemporary online world and ability
Speaker 3: to access without controls, really access material which enables you
Speaker 3: to be convinced that something is wrong and that you
Speaker 3: need to do something. Now, most people might be convinced,
Speaker 3: but then don't do it. So this person Taylor who
Speaker 3: is being charged, and of course the Christian shooter, what's
Speaker 3: quite unusual there is that they not simply are convinced
Speaker 3: of a particular set of views, are to draw their
Speaker 3: sympathy to a particular terrorist organization, but also then to
Speaker 3: act those out. And that's the threat to societies like
Speaker 3: our own, that it's not simply that you are a
Speaker 3: keyboard warrior in a particular echo change of going down
Speaker 3: a particular rabbit hole and being convinced of a particular
Speaker 3: point of view. It's that you will do something about it.
Speaker 3: So to actually go as this person did to the
Speaker 3: Middle East and to participate is a very significant move
Speaker 3: or act, and we definitely need to understand why individuals
Speaker 3: would do that.
Speaker 1: And in terms of people becoming radicalized online, what kind
Speaker 1: of mechanisms do we have in place to kind of
Speaker 1: stop that from happening. I suppose they end up on
Speaker 1: some kind of list.
Speaker 3: Yes, we've we've got a list of organizations that are
Speaker 3: deemed to be terrorists. So that's a start. As security
Speaker 3: and intelligence services monitor individuals monitor activity, but of course
Speaker 3: the sheer volume of activity is just extraordinary. And actually
Speaker 3: you can have keywords that would trigger interest in the
Speaker 3: particular exchange or a particular set of comments online, but
Speaker 3: it is becoming increasingly difficult simply to track, monitor, understand
Speaker 3: what's happening online. So we're increasingly reliant upon our partners,
Speaker 3: and particularly our five Ice partners to give us information.
Speaker 3: And of course, one of the interesting things about this
Speaker 3: particular individual is that he's been deemed a global terrorist
Speaker 3: by American agencies. So they actually moved in a way
Speaker 3: earlier the way we did to be very clear about
Speaker 3: the issues that this individual represents to us and to
Speaker 3: other countries.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Paul.
Speaker 3: You're very welcome, Chelsea.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 1: a sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to The Front
Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.