1 00:00:07,133 --> 00:00:10,453 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Saturday Morning with Jack Team podcast 2 00:00:10,573 --> 00:00:11,733 Speaker 1: from News Talks at b. 3 00:00:12,853 --> 00:00:16,893 Speaker 2: Ben McIntyre is an author who captivates readers with true stories. 4 00:00:16,933 --> 00:00:21,933 Speaker 2: He expertly unravels complex historical events, explaining sharp subplots and 5 00:00:22,093 --> 00:00:26,253 Speaker 2: side characters, while artfully deploying dry humor to make the 6 00:00:26,373 --> 00:00:30,253 Speaker 2: stories he tells come to life. His most recent nonfiction 7 00:00:30,373 --> 00:00:32,733 Speaker 2: work is The Siege. It's a story of how in 8 00:00:32,773 --> 00:00:36,213 Speaker 2: April nineteen eighty six men stormed the Iranian embassy in 9 00:00:36,253 --> 00:00:40,493 Speaker 2: London and took twenty six hostages for six days. Ben 10 00:00:40,613 --> 00:00:43,613 Speaker 2: is coming to New Zealand for the Auckland Writers' Festival 11 00:00:43,613 --> 00:00:46,013 Speaker 2: and it's joining us this morning. Kaldo, Welcome to the show. 12 00:00:46,373 --> 00:00:47,893 Speaker 3: He's delightful to be here. Thank you. 13 00:00:48,093 --> 00:00:50,413 Speaker 2: We are just so thrilled that you are going to 14 00:00:50,453 --> 00:00:53,133 Speaker 2: be here for the Writers' Festival very soon. But I 15 00:00:53,173 --> 00:00:56,053 Speaker 2: wondered if we could start by talking about your latest work, Besiege. 16 00:00:56,453 --> 00:00:59,493 Speaker 2: You have written about all sorts of interesting subjects over 17 00:00:59,493 --> 00:01:04,133 Speaker 2: the years, from Kim Philby to the rogue Heroes. How 18 00:01:04,173 --> 00:01:06,533 Speaker 2: do you settle upon a subject like this? 19 00:01:07,813 --> 00:01:10,013 Speaker 4: Well, this is one I've always wanted to write because 20 00:01:10,013 --> 00:01:13,093 Speaker 4: I was seventeen when this happened, and it was the 21 00:01:13,093 --> 00:01:16,093 Speaker 4: most dramatic thing I'd ever seen on television. It was 22 00:01:16,093 --> 00:01:20,933 Speaker 4: an incredible sort of dramatic, real life performance. It broke 23 00:01:20,973 --> 00:01:23,653 Speaker 4: into the snooker, which we were all glued to, you know, 24 00:01:23,693 --> 00:01:26,253 Speaker 4: it was an incredible moment. And so I've always wanted 25 00:01:26,253 --> 00:01:28,893 Speaker 4: to write about it because it's one of those stories 26 00:01:28,933 --> 00:01:32,613 Speaker 4: that entered mythsology very quickly. It became a sort of 27 00:01:32,653 --> 00:01:36,173 Speaker 4: story of sort of sas daring do and kind of 28 00:01:36,213 --> 00:01:39,653 Speaker 4: you know, fighting against the odds. And you know, actually 29 00:01:39,653 --> 00:01:42,213 Speaker 4: that the story itself is much more complicated than that. 30 00:01:42,253 --> 00:01:43,573 Speaker 3: It's much more interesting. 31 00:01:43,653 --> 00:01:48,893 Speaker 4: It's a much more dense and conflicted story about individuals 32 00:01:48,933 --> 00:01:50,733 Speaker 4: really and about characters and personality. 33 00:01:50,813 --> 00:01:53,173 Speaker 3: So I've really enjoyed writing this one. It's been great fun. 34 00:01:53,293 --> 00:01:56,893 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a remarkable the amount of detail you're able 35 00:01:56,893 --> 00:02:00,333 Speaker 2: to extract from all sides of the of you know, 36 00:02:00,613 --> 00:02:03,213 Speaker 2: of the crisis. But just to remind our listeners, can 37 00:02:03,253 --> 00:02:05,733 Speaker 2: you just give us the basic outlines of the of 38 00:02:05,773 --> 00:02:07,213 Speaker 2: the hostage crisis? What happened? 39 00:02:08,053 --> 00:02:08,693 Speaker 3: Absolutely? 40 00:02:08,813 --> 00:02:14,573 Speaker 4: So, this was in April nineteen eighty, the US embassy 41 00:02:14,693 --> 00:02:18,253 Speaker 4: hostage crisis was still going on in Tehran and six 42 00:02:18,573 --> 00:02:22,813 Speaker 4: armed gunmen burst into the Iranian embassy in London and 43 00:02:22,893 --> 00:02:28,013 Speaker 4: took twenty seven hostages. They were young Arabs from a 44 00:02:28,053 --> 00:02:30,973 Speaker 4: part of Iran. They were actually deeply opposed to the 45 00:02:31,013 --> 00:02:35,973 Speaker 4: Ayatolla's regime. They were bankrolled by Saddam Hussein. This was 46 00:02:36,013 --> 00:02:40,053 Speaker 4: an Iraqi plot, a deliberate attempt to destabilize the Ayatolla 47 00:02:40,453 --> 00:02:43,973 Speaker 4: and the Iranian regime, and it led to this astonishing 48 00:02:44,653 --> 00:02:50,733 Speaker 4: six days standoff between the gunmen inside that building and 49 00:02:50,933 --> 00:02:55,013 Speaker 4: the police and eventually the Sas on the outside. I 50 00:02:55,253 --> 00:02:57,013 Speaker 4: don't want to give it away for your readers, but 51 00:02:57,373 --> 00:03:02,333 Speaker 4: the final denumar moment of this story is extraordinary, when 52 00:03:02,453 --> 00:03:06,853 Speaker 4: the Sas end up assaulting the building in a full scale, 53 00:03:07,853 --> 00:03:09,653 Speaker 4: full military assault. 54 00:03:09,613 --> 00:03:12,093 Speaker 2: As cameras watch on, I suppose, is one of the 55 00:03:12,173 --> 00:03:14,133 Speaker 2: kind of critical moments, right, This is one of those 56 00:03:14,133 --> 00:03:18,813 Speaker 2: moments when you know that the full capacity of the 57 00:03:18,933 --> 00:03:21,133 Speaker 2: essay is there for the world to see. 58 00:03:21,973 --> 00:03:24,333 Speaker 4: That's right, And you know, the ESAs had never really 59 00:03:24,373 --> 00:03:26,373 Speaker 4: been heard of before this. I mean, it was still 60 00:03:26,373 --> 00:03:29,733 Speaker 4: a very secretive organization at this point. And of course 61 00:03:29,773 --> 00:03:31,413 Speaker 4: we're kind of used to this now. It's a live 62 00:03:31,613 --> 00:03:35,293 Speaker 4: rolling news to seeing things happen in real time. This 63 00:03:35,493 --> 00:03:38,253 Speaker 4: was filmed by the television cameras as it took place, 64 00:03:38,333 --> 00:03:42,173 Speaker 4: and in nineteen eighty that was completely unprecedented. No one 65 00:03:42,173 --> 00:03:45,773 Speaker 4: had ever seen news relayed this way before. I remember 66 00:03:45,813 --> 00:03:48,173 Speaker 4: it as a seventeen year old watching these kind of 67 00:03:48,213 --> 00:03:51,973 Speaker 4: black clad figures ab sailing down the outside of this building, 68 00:03:52,293 --> 00:03:56,173 Speaker 4: throwingly explosion inside, armed with machine guns and then attacking 69 00:03:56,253 --> 00:03:58,613 Speaker 4: the building. I thought it was a film. I thought 70 00:03:58,653 --> 00:04:01,653 Speaker 4: that accidentally they'd moved across from the Zennigga to a film. 71 00:04:01,813 --> 00:04:04,413 Speaker 4: But so it's a very significant moment, and it had 72 00:04:04,453 --> 00:04:09,293 Speaker 4: a dramatic impact on Margaret Thatcher's premiership. 73 00:04:09,933 --> 00:04:11,573 Speaker 3: You know, in a way it's set the tones. 74 00:04:11,613 --> 00:04:13,693 Speaker 4: She'd only been in power for a year by this point, 75 00:04:13,733 --> 00:04:16,733 Speaker 4: and it's set the tone for the rest of of 76 00:04:16,773 --> 00:04:19,573 Speaker 4: her premiership in many ways. Her relationship with the military 77 00:04:20,253 --> 00:04:23,453 Speaker 4: at the Falkland Islands conflict, all of this, in a 78 00:04:23,493 --> 00:04:25,573 Speaker 4: way starts from this event. 79 00:04:25,893 --> 00:04:28,373 Speaker 2: I was gonna say, is there an argument to be 80 00:04:28,453 --> 00:04:31,733 Speaker 2: made that the Falkland's conflict might have been avoided, or 81 00:04:32,213 --> 00:04:33,933 Speaker 2: at the very least that Missus Stetcher might have had 82 00:04:33,933 --> 00:04:37,493 Speaker 2: a different approach to that conflict had this not happened. 83 00:04:38,453 --> 00:04:40,573 Speaker 3: Yes, I think you can make that point many in 84 00:04:40,613 --> 00:04:41,373 Speaker 3: the SAS do. 85 00:04:41,573 --> 00:04:44,613 Speaker 4: I mean, she believed that she had forged a particular 86 00:04:44,653 --> 00:04:46,453 Speaker 4: relationship with the military. 87 00:04:46,613 --> 00:04:50,653 Speaker 3: And the SAS played a very important role in the Falklands. 88 00:04:50,973 --> 00:04:52,933 Speaker 4: And so yes, I mean I think some of her 89 00:04:53,093 --> 00:04:55,453 Speaker 4: kind of you can see it now these days there's 90 00:04:55,533 --> 00:04:59,773 Speaker 4: rather gung ho attitude towards both terrorism and indeed towards 91 00:05:00,053 --> 00:05:01,893 Speaker 4: international conflict was. 92 00:05:01,853 --> 00:05:06,013 Speaker 3: Born on this day in May. Was you don't see 93 00:05:06,013 --> 00:05:09,053 Speaker 3: it for May when this thing really came down. So 94 00:05:09,293 --> 00:05:10,853 Speaker 3: it was very important. 95 00:05:10,413 --> 00:05:13,453 Speaker 4: For her, I think, and she alluded to it throughout 96 00:05:13,613 --> 00:05:15,373 Speaker 4: her premiership with great pride. 97 00:05:15,773 --> 00:05:18,973 Speaker 2: It's so more broadly being, I mean, your subjects, in 98 00:05:19,013 --> 00:05:21,893 Speaker 2: your various different roles and with various different heads, your 99 00:05:21,893 --> 00:05:25,853 Speaker 2: subjects have always had a kind of boy's own quality 100 00:05:25,893 --> 00:05:31,133 Speaker 2: to them. You know, whether it's the British Intelligence Services 101 00:05:31,213 --> 00:05:33,013 Speaker 2: or the likes of the Essas. What do you think 102 00:05:33,053 --> 00:05:37,653 Speaker 2: has driven your personal interest in and in conflict, in 103 00:05:37,653 --> 00:05:40,173 Speaker 2: intelligence services and spying and that kind of thing. 104 00:05:41,213 --> 00:05:43,933 Speaker 4: Well, I love those kind of stories. I mean, they are, yes, 105 00:05:43,933 --> 00:05:46,013 Speaker 4: they're boys own paper in a way. They're kind of 106 00:05:46,053 --> 00:05:49,493 Speaker 4: you know, they're incredibly exciting and adventurous and all of 107 00:05:49,493 --> 00:05:52,413 Speaker 4: that is wonderful. But actually when you dig into those stories, 108 00:05:52,933 --> 00:05:58,693 Speaker 4: they're often much more fascinating than simply stories of daring 109 00:05:58,813 --> 00:06:02,813 Speaker 4: do because these are really stories about what ordinary people 110 00:06:02,893 --> 00:06:07,173 Speaker 4: do in extraordinary situations. And that is absolently true of 111 00:06:07,213 --> 00:06:10,093 Speaker 4: the Iranian embassy seeds. There were twenty six people inside 112 00:06:10,093 --> 00:06:14,053 Speaker 4: that building. None of them got up that morning expecting 113 00:06:14,053 --> 00:06:16,853 Speaker 4: they were going to be thrust into this terrifying drama. 114 00:06:17,373 --> 00:06:19,493 Speaker 4: And a lot of the story is really about how 115 00:06:19,653 --> 00:06:25,293 Speaker 4: different people respond to terrifying situations they can't control. And 116 00:06:25,333 --> 00:06:27,853 Speaker 4: in a way, that is the story of war, that 117 00:06:27,973 --> 00:06:30,173 Speaker 4: is the story of espionage, That is, in a way, 118 00:06:30,253 --> 00:06:34,453 Speaker 4: the sort of secret story behind all conflicts is how 119 00:06:34,493 --> 00:06:38,693 Speaker 4: do individuals react when it really comes down to the wire. 120 00:06:38,733 --> 00:06:41,773 Speaker 4: And I think that's probably what has always interested me. 121 00:06:42,653 --> 00:06:45,333 Speaker 2: One of the individuals who doesn't necessarily cover themselves in 122 00:06:45,333 --> 00:06:49,093 Speaker 2: glory and not for the first time in the siege 123 00:06:49,213 --> 00:06:53,253 Speaker 2: is Prince Andrew, who rushed down to the embassy almost immediately. 124 00:06:54,133 --> 00:06:56,733 Speaker 4: This is one of the more absurd aspects of this 125 00:06:56,773 --> 00:06:59,533 Speaker 4: story that I knew nothing about before I started writing it. Yes, 126 00:06:59,613 --> 00:07:02,853 Speaker 4: I mean, but the one moment when the police commissioner 127 00:07:02,893 --> 00:07:04,533 Speaker 4: who was in charge of the whole operation. 128 00:07:04,693 --> 00:07:06,693 Speaker 3: Actually lost his temper was. 129 00:07:06,693 --> 00:07:09,813 Speaker 4: When Prince Andrew, then the kind of young helicopter pilot, 130 00:07:10,133 --> 00:07:14,453 Speaker 4: demanded Nate insisted that he'd be allowed to come down 131 00:07:14,453 --> 00:07:18,613 Speaker 4: to police headquarters and witness the siege in operation. He 132 00:07:18,733 --> 00:07:22,013 Speaker 4: was told in no uncertain terms, and indeed in terms 133 00:07:22,013 --> 00:07:23,253 Speaker 4: that one didn't usually. 134 00:07:23,053 --> 00:07:25,893 Speaker 3: Use towards royalty, that that was not going to happen. 135 00:07:26,613 --> 00:07:33,173 Speaker 2: Yeah, you obviously have forwards really strong and trusting relationships 136 00:07:33,733 --> 00:07:37,773 Speaker 2: with people who either have been or are still in 137 00:07:37,813 --> 00:07:41,533 Speaker 2: pretty secretive worlds. So how do you go about nurturing 138 00:07:41,533 --> 00:07:44,653 Speaker 2: those relationships, whether it's in the intelligence agencies or with 139 00:07:44,693 --> 00:07:46,213 Speaker 2: special force of soldiers and the like. 140 00:07:47,333 --> 00:07:48,293 Speaker 3: Well, it's difficult. 141 00:07:48,493 --> 00:07:52,373 Speaker 4: But that said, everyone in the world wants to tell 142 00:07:52,413 --> 00:07:55,653 Speaker 4: their story, and that goes for people in the secret 143 00:07:55,653 --> 00:07:58,373 Speaker 4: world as much as anyone else. Really, they may be 144 00:07:58,653 --> 00:08:00,893 Speaker 4: kind of prevented in a way by convention and in 145 00:08:00,893 --> 00:08:05,053 Speaker 4: some cases by law, but they're a basic human interest, 146 00:08:05,173 --> 00:08:06,773 Speaker 4: in instinct thing. 147 00:08:06,773 --> 00:08:08,733 Speaker 3: To tell our own narratives. 148 00:08:08,853 --> 00:08:11,613 Speaker 4: So I've been very lucky over the last thirty years 149 00:08:11,653 --> 00:08:13,533 Speaker 4: I've met lots of people from this world. I could 150 00:08:13,613 --> 00:08:17,453 Speaker 4: not have written this book without the cooperation of the 151 00:08:17,493 --> 00:08:20,653 Speaker 4: Ministry of Defense in the UK, the SAS is not 152 00:08:20,733 --> 00:08:24,853 Speaker 4: supposed to talk about operations ever, that's a kind of 153 00:08:24,893 --> 00:08:29,013 Speaker 4: a firm rule. In this occasion, After a certain amount 154 00:08:29,013 --> 00:08:30,053 Speaker 4: of badgering from. 155 00:08:29,893 --> 00:08:32,533 Speaker 3: Me, they agreed to allow the. 156 00:08:32,493 --> 00:08:36,813 Speaker 4: People directly involved in this operation to talk about what 157 00:08:36,893 --> 00:08:39,333 Speaker 4: had happened. And that's really never happened before, and so 158 00:08:39,453 --> 00:08:42,413 Speaker 4: I was hugely grateful for that. It allowed me to 159 00:08:42,453 --> 00:08:45,253 Speaker 4: talk to these people who and there aren't that many 160 00:08:45,333 --> 00:08:49,213 Speaker 4: of them still alive, who had actually witnessed at first 161 00:08:49,373 --> 00:08:53,253 Speaker 4: hand what happened in the closing eleven minutes of Operation Nimrod. 162 00:08:53,533 --> 00:08:55,333 Speaker 4: And without that, I think this book would have been 163 00:08:55,333 --> 00:08:58,173 Speaker 4: impossible to write, because that really gave me the kind 164 00:08:58,213 --> 00:09:01,813 Speaker 4: of warp and weft of what that experience felt like. 165 00:09:01,893 --> 00:09:05,853 Speaker 4: So yes, I mean, those personal relationships are absolutely crucial 166 00:09:05,893 --> 00:09:08,413 Speaker 4: to write narrative nonfiction like this. 167 00:09:08,653 --> 00:09:11,333 Speaker 2: Do you ever worry that, you know, people in those 168 00:09:11,453 --> 00:09:16,893 Speaker 2: kind of positions of secrecy but also power are trying 169 00:09:16,933 --> 00:09:18,973 Speaker 2: to you know, they're put up the facad and say, oh, 170 00:09:19,013 --> 00:09:21,213 Speaker 2: you know, we never tell our stories, never tell us stories. Okay, 171 00:09:21,493 --> 00:09:23,253 Speaker 2: all right, Bean, will tell you our story. And it 172 00:09:23,293 --> 00:09:25,893 Speaker 2: just so happens that we look fantastic out of us. 173 00:09:26,333 --> 00:09:27,693 Speaker 3: Well, you make a very good point. 174 00:09:27,773 --> 00:09:30,453 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, spies and special operations people like 175 00:09:30,533 --> 00:09:33,773 Speaker 4: to tell their stories. When those stories reflect well of them, 176 00:09:34,133 --> 00:09:36,613 Speaker 4: they're much less willing to do so. You know, if 177 00:09:36,653 --> 00:09:39,173 Speaker 4: Operation Nimrod had failed, I don't think the Ministry of 178 00:09:39,213 --> 00:09:41,253 Speaker 4: Defense would be anything like as keen. 179 00:09:41,653 --> 00:09:43,213 Speaker 3: Oh it wasn't that keen anyway. 180 00:09:43,293 --> 00:09:45,333 Speaker 4: But you know, to to sort of share the story, 181 00:09:45,573 --> 00:09:47,533 Speaker 4: what has to be a bit careful of that. I mean, 182 00:09:47,573 --> 00:09:51,293 Speaker 4: I'm always a bit nervous and a bit tentative about 183 00:09:51,333 --> 00:09:55,053 Speaker 4: dealing with sort of official bodies, because you know, this 184 00:09:55,093 --> 00:09:55,453 Speaker 4: is not. 185 00:09:55,493 --> 00:09:56,653 Speaker 3: An authorized book. 186 00:09:57,013 --> 00:09:59,253 Speaker 4: I mean, it's different from SAS Rogue Heroes, which I 187 00:09:59,333 --> 00:10:02,053 Speaker 4: wrote before, which was an authorized the history of the SAS. 188 00:10:02,693 --> 00:10:05,453 Speaker 4: And when I started that project, I made it absolutely 189 00:10:05,493 --> 00:10:08,333 Speaker 4: clear that while the SAS was allowed to have an 190 00:10:08,373 --> 00:10:12,453 Speaker 4: opinion about the manuscript, it did not have editorial control. 191 00:10:13,013 --> 00:10:14,693 Speaker 3: In this case, it's even firmer. 192 00:10:14,773 --> 00:10:18,133 Speaker 4: They had no control over what I wrote in the 193 00:10:18,213 --> 00:10:20,973 Speaker 4: end at all, and to their credit, they really didn't 194 00:10:21,013 --> 00:10:23,533 Speaker 4: try to do. There was only one or two elements of 195 00:10:23,893 --> 00:10:28,653 Speaker 4: what they call contemporary capability. I thinks that would still 196 00:10:28,693 --> 00:10:30,893 Speaker 4: be done today that were done in nineteen eighty and 197 00:10:30,933 --> 00:10:33,133 Speaker 4: as your listeners can imagine, there are a precious few 198 00:10:33,173 --> 00:10:36,533 Speaker 4: of those. There were a few of those where they said, look, 199 00:10:36,693 --> 00:10:39,333 Speaker 4: please don't put that in the book because you know 200 00:10:39,453 --> 00:10:41,013 Speaker 4: you don't want to, you don't want to enable the 201 00:10:41,053 --> 00:10:42,893 Speaker 4: other side. And look, I'm not in the business of 202 00:10:42,933 --> 00:10:46,453 Speaker 4: helping terrorists do anything. So I was perfectly happy to 203 00:10:46,533 --> 00:10:49,853 Speaker 4: do that. But it's surprising in a way how little 204 00:10:49,893 --> 00:10:54,093 Speaker 4: control really they both have and can have over a 205 00:10:54,133 --> 00:10:54,853 Speaker 4: project like this. 206 00:10:55,493 --> 00:10:57,693 Speaker 2: You am I right and thinking when you were a student, 207 00:10:57,933 --> 00:11:01,333 Speaker 2: you were approached about potentially joining the intelligence citizens. 208 00:11:02,333 --> 00:11:03,853 Speaker 4: Yes, this is one of the reasons why I've made 209 00:11:03,893 --> 00:11:08,213 Speaker 4: a hopeless spy. Is I've kind of revealed this supposed it. Yes, 210 00:11:08,293 --> 00:11:11,453 Speaker 4: I was. I was approached by by six and I 211 00:11:11,533 --> 00:11:15,653 Speaker 4: went through just the initial stages of recruitment. It became 212 00:11:15,653 --> 00:11:18,253 Speaker 4: pretty clear pretty quickly to both sides. I think that 213 00:11:18,333 --> 00:11:20,853 Speaker 4: I was really not I was not the type to 214 00:11:20,893 --> 00:11:24,493 Speaker 4: make a good spy. I like to reveal secrets, I 215 00:11:24,493 --> 00:11:26,613 Speaker 4: don't really like to keep them. That's why I've had 216 00:11:27,053 --> 00:11:29,453 Speaker 4: That's a lovely time, you know, as a journalist and 217 00:11:29,493 --> 00:11:32,653 Speaker 4: as a book writer, kind of digging into the secret past. 218 00:11:32,773 --> 00:11:36,133 Speaker 4: So yeah, I was briefly touched and or tapped up, 219 00:11:36,133 --> 00:11:39,813 Speaker 4: as they say in UK parlance, but it was clearly. 220 00:11:39,453 --> 00:11:41,173 Speaker 3: Never going to go anywhere. But I think it did. 221 00:11:41,093 --> 00:11:45,533 Speaker 4: Leave me with a kind of residual fascination with the 222 00:11:45,613 --> 00:11:48,213 Speaker 4: secret world. I think there's a there's a story to 223 00:11:48,253 --> 00:11:51,053 Speaker 4: be told about the secret world in which a non 224 00:11:51,093 --> 00:11:54,613 Speaker 4: fiction writer can write about true stories in a way 225 00:11:54,653 --> 00:11:58,013 Speaker 4: that nonetheless feels like fiction, And that's almost unique to. 226 00:11:57,973 --> 00:12:02,333 Speaker 2: The spy world, the narrative nonfiction. Right, it's a yeah, yeah, 227 00:12:02,453 --> 00:12:04,933 Speaker 2: how does the approach work? Does someone just look, you've 228 00:12:04,933 --> 00:12:05,533 Speaker 2: got tepic? 229 00:12:05,653 --> 00:12:05,773 Speaker 1: Is it? 230 00:12:05,973 --> 00:12:08,453 Speaker 3: I mean that it was literally the old fashioned way. 231 00:12:08,493 --> 00:12:11,733 Speaker 4: It was my last university in Cambridge, a nest of spies, 232 00:12:12,533 --> 00:12:14,693 Speaker 4: they say. And I was just approached by one of 233 00:12:14,693 --> 00:12:18,733 Speaker 4: my lecturers who said, you know, there are certain people 234 00:12:18,773 --> 00:12:19,573 Speaker 4: I think you ought to meet. 235 00:12:19,613 --> 00:12:20,213 Speaker 3: I mean he never. 236 00:12:20,133 --> 00:12:21,693 Speaker 4: Actually said what it was I was going to do, 237 00:12:21,813 --> 00:12:24,213 Speaker 4: but I was perfectly clear what was going to happen. 238 00:12:24,213 --> 00:12:26,893 Speaker 3: And I went through a couple of interviews, but. 239 00:12:26,493 --> 00:12:29,373 Speaker 4: And I did it more really out of sort of curiosity, 240 00:12:29,413 --> 00:12:33,133 Speaker 4: and I think I slightly wasted their time. But it's 241 00:12:33,173 --> 00:12:36,293 Speaker 4: you know, it's I mean, my contacts in that world 242 00:12:36,333 --> 00:12:40,013 Speaker 4: are always quite amusing about They all know that. I 243 00:12:40,213 --> 00:12:43,133 Speaker 4: that was sort of at one point briefly kind of 244 00:12:43,693 --> 00:12:45,133 Speaker 4: mentioned as a possibility. 245 00:12:45,853 --> 00:12:48,453 Speaker 2: What do you think, I mean, your fascination is shared 246 00:12:48,453 --> 00:12:51,653 Speaker 2: by so many people, including me. But you know, obviously 247 00:12:51,693 --> 00:12:55,333 Speaker 2: the nature of espionage in the secret world, as you 248 00:12:55,453 --> 00:12:58,533 Speaker 2: term that has massively changed, you know, and continues to 249 00:12:58,613 --> 00:13:01,573 Speaker 2: change as technology evolves and that sort of thing. What 250 00:13:01,653 --> 00:13:06,853 Speaker 2: do you think is something that people misunderstand about the 251 00:13:06,933 --> 00:13:10,733 Speaker 2: operations or capacity of intelligence services. 252 00:13:11,613 --> 00:13:12,493 Speaker 3: It's a very good question. 253 00:13:12,533 --> 00:13:14,693 Speaker 4: I mean, I think a lot of people assume today 254 00:13:14,813 --> 00:13:19,573 Speaker 4: that the whole of intelligence takes place digitally, that really 255 00:13:19,613 --> 00:13:25,253 Speaker 4: this is now a story about intercepting telephone messages, texts, emails, 256 00:13:25,293 --> 00:13:27,773 Speaker 4: that it's all taking place in a kind of cyber world, 257 00:13:28,013 --> 00:13:30,693 Speaker 4: and to a considered extent, that is the great development 258 00:13:30,693 --> 00:13:31,613 Speaker 4: of modern espionage. 259 00:13:31,653 --> 00:13:34,533 Speaker 3: You know, it does take place up there, and. 260 00:13:34,893 --> 00:13:37,573 Speaker 4: A lot of it, but not all of it, because 261 00:13:37,653 --> 00:13:42,093 Speaker 4: human intelligence is as important today as it ever was, 262 00:13:42,493 --> 00:13:47,613 Speaker 4: in fact arguably even more important. You know, knowing who 263 00:13:47,693 --> 00:13:50,493 Speaker 4: your enemy is, being able to put a face to 264 00:13:50,653 --> 00:13:54,013 Speaker 4: him or her, being able to talk to people in 265 00:13:54,093 --> 00:13:57,533 Speaker 4: crowded bars and work out whether they are telling you 266 00:13:57,613 --> 00:14:01,773 Speaker 4: the truth that is still I would say, the essence 267 00:14:02,013 --> 00:14:07,093 Speaker 4: of all espionage, and without it, cyber espionage doesn't work. Yeah. 268 00:14:07,173 --> 00:14:11,133 Speaker 2: Well, Ben, we love your work. We love all of 269 00:14:11,173 --> 00:14:13,213 Speaker 2: your work, including the stuff that we've also seen on 270 00:14:13,253 --> 00:14:16,893 Speaker 2: TV and at the cinema. We're delighted that you are 271 00:14:16,933 --> 00:14:19,293 Speaker 2: going to be appearing at the Auckland Writers Festival and 272 00:14:19,333 --> 00:14:20,773 Speaker 2: look forward to hearing from you very soon. 273 00:14:21,653 --> 00:14:23,813 Speaker 4: Well, I'm thoroughly looking forward to it, and indeed I 274 00:14:23,853 --> 00:14:27,853 Speaker 4: have a special guest in Auckland which is one of 275 00:14:27,893 --> 00:14:32,533 Speaker 4: the participants in the Sas Embassy Siege, a New Zealander, 276 00:14:32,613 --> 00:14:35,053 Speaker 4: will be joining me on stage for that event, which 277 00:14:35,053 --> 00:14:36,333 Speaker 4: I'm thoroughly looking forward to. 278 00:14:36,853 --> 00:14:38,893 Speaker 2: That's going to be so special. Thank you, Ben. So 279 00:14:38,933 --> 00:14:40,773 Speaker 2: Ben's going to be in New Zealand speaking at the 280 00:14:40,773 --> 00:14:43,973 Speaker 2: Auckland Writers Festival, which begins on the thirteenth of May, 281 00:14:44,013 --> 00:14:47,053 Speaker 2: and of course there's more information and tickets available at 282 00:14:47,093 --> 00:14:49,973 Speaker 2: writers Festival dot co dot nz. 283 00:14:50,933 --> 00:14:54,013 Speaker 1: For more From Saturday Morning with Jack Tame, listen live 284 00:14:54,093 --> 00:14:57,413 Speaker 1: to Newstalks B from nine am Saturday, or follow the 285 00:14:57,453 --> 00:14:58,893 Speaker 1: podcast on iHeartRadio.