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Speaker 1: Australia and New Zealand are set to discuss foreign policy,

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Speaker 1: security and defense during high level talks tomorrow. It comes

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Speaker 1: after Defense Minister Judith Collins warned earlier this week that

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Speaker 1: China's recent use of the continental Ballistic missile in the

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Speaker 1: Pacific had changed everything. Australia's Deputy Prime Minister, Richard Miles

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Speaker 1: and Foreign Minister Penny Wong will meet with Judith Collins

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Speaker 1: and wins Peter's and the Australian Deputy Prime Minister and

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Speaker 1: Defense Minister Richard Miles himself joins me. Now, Hello Richard,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the program, and welcome to New Zealand.

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Speaker 2: Good afternoon, Andrew. It's great to be talking with you.

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Speaker 1: So is this week we delayed our defense plan because

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Speaker 1: of the ICBM. How did Australia view China's use of

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Speaker 1: that missile?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think what it tells us is that we well, firstly,

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Speaker 3: we are living in a world where which is much

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Speaker 3: less predictable, where there is much greater contest, strategic contest,

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Speaker 3: and that contest is playing out in the Pacific as well.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, for those of us who.

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Speaker 3: Are living in the Pacific as well as our neighbors

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Speaker 3: the Pacific island countries. We're not immune from the strategic

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Speaker 3: contest which we're seeing throughout the Endo Pacific and I

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Speaker 3: think the tests of the ICBM by China is a

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Speaker 3: perfect example of that, but it's not the only example,

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Speaker 3: and it really does remind us that what this requires

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Speaker 3: is a rethinking and certainly we've been going through this process.

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Speaker 3: I know New Zealand is now going through itself about

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Speaker 3: what our strategic challenges are and therefore what kind of

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Speaker 3: a defense force we need to meet those challenges, and

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Speaker 3: therefore what we need to build in the future.

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Speaker 1: While also trading with China, who is, for both about countries,

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Speaker 1: one of our biggest trading partners.

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Speaker 3: And that's true, and China is Australia's largest trading partner.

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Speaker 3: It's obviously a very large trading partner for New Zealand

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Speaker 3: as well, and so you know, it's a complex relationship.

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Speaker 3: It's a difficult relifelationship with China. I mean to be clear,

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Speaker 3: we want the most productive relationship we can have with

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Speaker 3: China and a key part of what we've sought to

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Speaker 3: do since coming to power back in twenty twenty two

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Speaker 3: is to try and stabilize our relationship with China, and

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Speaker 3: we've seen the fruits of that with much greater dialogue

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Speaker 3: at a ministerial level. We've seen the reinstitution of the

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Speaker 3: better part of twenty billion dollars of trade between China

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Speaker 3: and Australia. But at the same time, there are significant

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Speaker 3: security anxieties with China, and so we've just got to

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Speaker 3: manage all of that, I mean, And so in that sense,

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Speaker 3: we talk about working with China where we can, disagreeing

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Speaker 3: with China where we must, and that's the challenge that

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Speaker 3: we face. Nothing here is obvious, the way through is complicated,

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Speaker 3: but one thing is clear. This is a time to

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Speaker 3: be doubling down with friends. So many of our countries

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Speaker 3: in the region face the same challenges, but for Australia

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Speaker 3: and New Zealand, there are no two countries as close

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Speaker 3: to each other as Australia in New Zealand. This is

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Speaker 3: the time to be doubling down in our relationship.

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Speaker 1: And we need to be clear with China that we

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Speaker 1: want peace, but we also need to be clear that

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Speaker 1: they can't take advantage of our smaller South Pacific nations,

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Speaker 1: and therefore we have a responsibility to be able to

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Speaker 1: protect our brothers and sisters throughout the Pacific.

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Speaker 2: And so on.

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Speaker 1: That New Zealand spends one point one seven percent of

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Speaker 1: GDP on defense, You, on the other hand, spend one

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Speaker 1: point nine percent. There's the old rule of thumb that

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Speaker 1: two percent is the optimum level. Would you, in an

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Speaker 1: ideal world like to see New Zealand spending more money

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Speaker 1: on its defense capability so that you and I we

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Speaker 1: can actually defend our patch better.

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Speaker 3: Well, the last thing I'm going to do is give

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Speaker 3: advice to the New Zealand government about how it allocates

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Speaker 3: its budget. From our point of view, worre at about

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Speaker 3: two now, and we're growing our defense budget to two

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Speaker 3: point three two point four over the course of the decade,

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Speaker 3: and that does reflect a much more challenging strategic landscape

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Speaker 3: in our you and so we are dramatically increasing our

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Speaker 3: military capability. I mean to put that into dollars, that's

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Speaker 3: about an additional five billion Australian dollars in over the

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Speaker 3: next four years, about an additional fifty billion Australian dollars

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Speaker 3: over the next decade in terms of our defense budget,

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Speaker 3: and those represent as significant increases in peace time in

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Speaker 3: our defense spending really since the end of the Second

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Speaker 3: World War. So that gives you a sense of the

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Speaker 3: strategic landscape that we observe and that we are responding to.

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Speaker 3: I think what we will be talking to New Zealand

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Speaker 3: about during the course of today tomorrow is really making

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Speaker 3: sure that whatever either of us are spending on defense,

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Speaker 3: we need to be maximizing that spend through a much

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Speaker 3: greater coordination between our two countries. And we've actually done

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Speaker 3: so much in the last year or two in relation

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Speaker 3: to that, and so the real opportunity not just in

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Speaker 3: terms of how much we spend, but the quality of

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Speaker 3: that bend is where we can get so much value

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Speaker 3: through the very strong relationship that our two countries have.

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Speaker 1: So in terms of that cooperation, August Pillar two do

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Speaker 1: you want us to join that.

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Speaker 3: Well? August Pillar Aucust or is a technology sharing arrangement. Obviously,

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Speaker 3: August Pillar one is particularly around Australia acquiring a submarine

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Speaker 3: capability or a particular submarine capability, but Pillar two is

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Speaker 3: about looking at new innovative technologies in the defense space.

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Speaker 3: We are consulting with a number of countries, including New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: exploring opportunities where on a project by project basis, there

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Speaker 3: might be an ability for us to work together. None

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Speaker 3: of this is going to happen tomorrow, it's but over

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Speaker 3: the longer term. Clearly New Zealand has capability, and clearly

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Speaker 3: New Zealand is a country with whom we have great

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Speaker 3: strategic trust.

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Speaker 1: But do we need August Pillar two to be able

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Speaker 1: to work together with you? In other words, is our

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Speaker 1: current information and technology sharing arrangements not up to par.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't put it in those terms at all.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's nothing about Aucust Pillar two which becomes

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Speaker 3: conditional in the context of our relationship. We want to

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Speaker 3: be as close to New Zealand as we can possibly be,

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Speaker 3: whatever happens in terms of working on particular projects in

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Speaker 3: relation to Aucust Pillar two.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, if you look at what we've.

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Speaker 3: Been doing over the course of the last twelve months,

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Speaker 3: we've seen dramatic increases in the way in which our

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Speaker 3: two countries have cooperated around military planning, for example, looking

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Speaker 3: at how we can better kind of get bang for

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Speaker 3: our buck in terms of our procurement spend. We're looking

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Speaker 3: at every opportunity to create a more ANZAC feel, if

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Speaker 3: you like. In terms of the way and which our

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Speaker 3: two defense forces operate. And that, as I say, it

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Speaker 3: goes back to maximizing what both of our countries are

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Speaker 3: spending on defense, the quality of that spend, and reflecting

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Speaker 3: the fact that our two countries have complete trust. It's

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Speaker 3: our closest relationship. It is for New Zealand as well.

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Speaker 3: It makes sense for us to be working as closely

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Speaker 3: together as we can be.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about relationships, because obviously the Australian Labor

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Speaker 1: Party is clearly convinced that AUCUS is a good idea.

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Speaker 1: And yet the New Zealand Labor Party voted last weekend

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Speaker 1: that it would not join AUCUST. They went further than that,

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Speaker 1: they said they would exit AUCUST if New Zealand were

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Speaker 1: to join and they ever become the government. Again, should

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Speaker 1: you be talking to your brothers across the Tasman about

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Speaker 1: a bipartisan agreement.

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Speaker 3: Well, obviously what the New Zealand Labor Party says and

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Speaker 3: does is a matter for it from our point of view.

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Speaker 3: In terms of the pillar one which is around Australia

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Speaker 3: acquiring a particular submarine capability that is clearly specific to Australia,

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Speaker 3: the idea of Australia and New Zealand working together in

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Speaker 3: terms of new technologies is not a particularly new idea.

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Speaker 3: It really is just exploring what opportunities there might be

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Speaker 3: on a project by project basis going forward. As I say,

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Speaker 3: none of this is happening tomorrow. We are very much

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Speaker 3: in an exploratory phase. We're not just talking to New Zealand,

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Speaker 3: but we're also talking with Canada, Japan, Korea, and you

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Speaker 3: can see what we're looking at is countries that have capability,

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Speaker 3: that they have technological expertise, but countries with whom our selves,

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Speaker 3: the United States and the Arited Kingdom shared deep strategic

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Speaker 3: trust and it's really no more complicated than that.

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Speaker 1: Richard, I trust you have a very fruitful meeting tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for coming over and thank you

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Speaker 1: for your time today. That is Richard Miles, Australian Deputy

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Speaker 1: play Minister and Defense Minister. And of course the summit happens,

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Speaker 1: the high level talks happens tomorrow.

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