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Speaker 1: The government's ahead of schedule with public service job cuts.

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Speaker 1: So their goal was to cut four hundred million dollars

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Speaker 1: in spending on consultants and contractors over two years, but

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Speaker 1: Judith Colin says they're actually on track to count eight

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Speaker 1: hundred million in the same time frame. Double it, and

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Speaker 1: she was so happy. Yes, that's always a bit disturbing

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Speaker 1: when you see Judith's smile. So Lockwood Smith was the

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Speaker 1: Associate Minister of Finance and he joins us, Now, good

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Speaker 1: morning to you Lockwood Morning Andrew. This needed to be done,

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Speaker 1: didn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know you wways feel sympathy for those whose

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Speaker 2: jobs are at risk. Candry, Let's be pretty clear about that.

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Speaker 2: It's not a non easy thing for people. But the

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Speaker 2: massive increase in the public sector in New Zealand has

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Speaker 2: been eyewatering. I mean I served on a after I

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Speaker 2: finished his High Commissioner in the UK, I was asked

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Speaker 2: to serve on a commission reviewing the UK public sector

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Speaker 2: and in one of our western countries, Who've got this

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Speaker 2: problem of a massive growth in the what people loosely

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Speaker 2: call the bureaucracy that's standing in the way of our

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Speaker 2: economic performance and creating sustainable jobs across the economy.

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Speaker 1: Why has it been a global phenomenon. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: see Elon Musk and does getting stuck into the United States,

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Speaker 1: Rachel Reeves, the Labor Chance of the Exchequer has said

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Speaker 1: she's going to cut fifteen percent of public servants. Why

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Speaker 1: did all countries go down this track?

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Speaker 2: To give you feel Andrew for just the ridiculous increase.

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Speaker 2: You know, when I was Minister of Education, admittedly that

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Speaker 2: was a long time ago, I ran the entire tertiary system,

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Speaker 2: including industry training, with thirteen officials. Today four hundred do

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Speaker 2: that job, and they just get in the way of

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Speaker 2: the providers. You know, these providers out there working hard

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Speaker 2: to try and deliver education, have to handle all the

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Speaker 2: bureaucratic requirements of that huge staff increase. When I became Speaker,

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Speaker 2: I reduced the pudges of the Speaker's office by fifty percent.

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Speaker 2: Reduced by fifty percent. And I think most people to

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Speaker 2: say the Speaker's office probably ran you know, at least

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Speaker 2: as well, if not better. So look at that.

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Speaker 1: So can I just ask one last question. She's done

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Speaker 1: well eight hundred million so far. Is there more that

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Speaker 1: she can cut?

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not in a position about to comment on

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Speaker 2: that all and I wouldn't recommend what's you know exactly

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Speaker 2: what's happening in the US right now, but we do

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Speaker 2: have to make sure. We've got a real problem with

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Speaker 2: productivity in this country. And you can partly see why,

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Speaker 2: you know, you've got so much unproductive work going on,

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Speaker 2: if you like, by well meaning, you know, good people

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Speaker 2: in the public sector, but just lack of focus on

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Speaker 2: what's really needed to deliver an effective public sector. And

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Speaker 2: as I say, we're seeing it not just New Zealand

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Speaker 2: but in other countries as well.

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Speaker 1: So loud I thank you so much for your time

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Speaker 1: for getting up early for us. Today's a luckwood Smith,

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Speaker 1: alies and gentlemen, former Speaker and Associate Minister of Finance.

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