Speaker 1: Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,
Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Anti
Speaker 1: Semitic sentiment has risen globally since the war in Gaza began,
Speaker 1: including in our own part of the world. A man
Speaker 1: has been charged after a Melbourne synagogue was set a
Speaker 1: light last Friday. The alleged anti Semitic attack has seen
Speaker 1: the country's Home Affairs Minister describe it as an attack
Speaker 1: on Australia. The attacks prompted the country's Labor Party to
Speaker 1: push for reforming the school curriculum to teach children about antisemitism.
Speaker 1: But these kind of anti Jewish attitudes aren't reserved for
Speaker 1: our trans Tasman neighbors. An Enzi Jewish Council report last
Speaker 1: year found that in the twelve months from October seven,
Speaker 1: twenty twenty three, there were two hundred and twenty seven
Speaker 1: and recorded anti Semitic incidents, a jump from one hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty six in the eight and a half years prior.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 1: How has the Gaza conflict exacerbated these tensions and how
Speaker 1: can the Jewish faith be separated from the actions of
Speaker 1: the State of Israel today? On the front page. Holocaust
Speaker 1: Center of New Zealand chair Deborah Hart joins us to
Speaker 1: discuss the rise of antisemitism here and how we might
Speaker 1: be able to combat it. Deborah, what do you make
Speaker 1: of the alleged arson attack on a Melbourne synagogue at
Speaker 1: the weekend.
Speaker 2: Well, there's been increasing levels of anti Semitism end violent
Speaker 2: action aimed at Jewish people and institutions in Australia, culminating
Speaker 2: on Friday, with actually three separate but aligned incidents, the
Speaker 2: fire bombing of a synagogue, the fire bombing and vandalism
Speaker 2: of a business, and some anti masked extremist terrorizing diners
Speaker 2: at an Israeli owned restaurant, and miss Norm chanting death
Speaker 2: to the IDF. This comes after numerous incidents of jew hatred,
Speaker 2: fire bombings, hatefield rhetoric and threats of violence. So it's actually,
Speaker 2: unfortunately not surpriser.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the same city where we saw
Speaker 1: a neo Nazi protest out in the open. It seems
Speaker 1: like this type of hate has been bubbling away at
Speaker 1: the surface there for some time now.
Speaker 2: Yes, and we shouldn't feel too high and mighty ourselves
Speaker 2: because there's been skyrocketing levels of jew hatred in this
Speaker 2: country as well, and really pretty nasty incidents happening here.
Speaker 2: It's very very similar tracks that we're seeing in Australia
Speaker 2: to what we're seeing here as well. We've see skyrocketing
Speaker 2: levels of anti Semitism, particularly since the seventh October, but
Speaker 2: it was increasing prior to that time as well.
Speaker 1: What are some of the types of abuse you've seen
Speaker 1: against the Jewish community here in New Zealand?
Speaker 2: Gosh, how long have you got at the Holocaust Center
Speaker 2: of New Zealand. We did a survey about this time
Speaker 2: last year. Actually eighty percent of parents who answered see
Speaker 2: their children had suffered anti Semitic incidents at school. What
Speaker 2: does that look like? Well, we're dealing with a teacher
Speaker 2: who demanded of a three year old in a day
Speaker 2: care to answer if he was Israeli and then man
Speaker 2: handled him three times. A Jewish student was given a
Speaker 2: haih Hitler salute and punched in the face. A Jewish
Speaker 2: child's uniform was covered in anti Semitic slogans and symbols.
Speaker 2: These are all separate attacks. A Jewish child was repeatedly harassed,
Speaker 2: pushed to the ground, and his kippa the skull cat
Speaker 2: knocked off his head and told he can't wear that here. Worse,
Speaker 2: worse awful in universities, avert support for Humus, which is
Speaker 2: a terrorist organization named such by the New Zealand government,
Speaker 2: repeated calls to globalize the into Fada, campaigns at universities
Speaker 2: to rid students and academics of Jews who support Israel's
Speaker 2: right to exist. We've had a Jewish family had an
Speaker 2: anti Semitic campaign targeted at all of their neighbors. We've
Speaker 2: had at the Holocaust Center of New Zealand. Like many
Speaker 2: Jewish institutions, we regularly receive hate mail. We have had
Speaker 2: the graffiti was it last month in Wellington that stated
Speaker 2: I hated Jews before it was called. There was an
Speaker 2: assault against an Israeli tourists last month. There's been an
Speaker 2: assault at a vigil for the hostages held in Gaza.
Speaker 2: I mean, I can go on and on and on,
Speaker 2: you know, and it includes Jewish businesses being doped, boycotted
Speaker 2: and attacked, and demands of artists Gewish artists in museums
Speaker 2: and musicians and artists to condem as well if they
Speaker 2: want to keep their exhibitions in these gigs. I mean
Speaker 2: it is comprehensive. It runs the gamut of violent assaults
Speaker 2: to hateful retruck.
Speaker 3: The punk band Bob Villan have said that they are
Speaker 3: being targeted for speaking up after their comments during a
Speaker 3: Glastonbury show were branded anti Semitic, and that they now
Speaker 3: face a police investigation. The Rab Duo led an anti
Speaker 3: Israeli military chant during their Glastonbury set at the weekend.
Speaker 3: The BBC has been criticized for continuing to show the
Speaker 3: live stream of the performance on Saturday. In a statement,
Speaker 3: the band said, today a good many people would have
Speaker 3: you believe a punk band is the number one threat
Speaker 3: to world peace. Last week it was a Palestine pressure group.
Speaker 3: The week before that it was another band. Where not
Speaker 3: for the death of Jews, Arabs or any other race
Speaker 3: or group of people, Where for the dismantling of a
Speaker 3: violent treat machine.
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of this sentiment against Israel and
Speaker 1: the IDF has come from pro Palestinian protesters or those
Speaker 1: opposed to what's happened or happening in Gaza. And of
Speaker 1: course the events of October seven were horrific and inexcusable.
Speaker 1: The conflict over the last two years in Gaza has
Speaker 1: been extremely violent, as well, there's no denying that, and
Speaker 1: there have been reports of residents being shot and killed
Speaker 1: while trying to reach aid, children starving, injured unable to
Speaker 1: be treated. But is it right to say that the
Speaker 1: actions of IDF are not indicative of the feelings of
Speaker 1: all Jewish people, just the same as the actions of
Speaker 1: har Mass can't be blamed on all Palestinians.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, and Israel as a sovereign nation state, it's government.
Speaker 2: It does what its government is going to do. Jewish
Speaker 2: New Zealanders are not responsible for the actions of a
Speaker 2: foreign nation state. And Jewish people have all kinds of
Speaker 2: feelings about what Israel is doing. But it's not anti
Speaker 2: submitic to criticize Israel. But it is anti submitic to
Speaker 2: make Jewish people here responsible somehow for the actions of
Speaker 2: the state of Israel. And we don't seem to do
Speaker 2: that of any other group of people.
Speaker 1: Well, look at the Muslim faith after nine to eleven.
Speaker 2: Yes, I mean, they also came in for quite a barrage,
Speaker 2: and you know that's not right either. But you know,
Speaker 2: you know, we have a war between Russia and Ukraine.
Speaker 2: Nobody seems to be going down to the local Russian
Speaker 2: Orthodox church and trying to set it light. We're not
Speaker 2: making Russian Orthodox people responsible for gosh, how many people
Speaker 2: have been killed in that war, well over one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty thousand people. They're not responsible for it. Syrian
Speaker 2: people here aren't responsible for Syria killing over six hundred
Speaker 2: thousand of its own citizens in its civil war. You know,
Speaker 2: you can have all kinds of views about Israel, and
Speaker 2: you can feel a great deal of empathy and sympathy
Speaker 2: for innocent Palestinian people who have been caught up in
Speaker 2: this dreadful, dreadful war. Who of us doesn't an ounce
Speaker 2: of empathy feel for, you know, innocent people who have
Speaker 2: been maimed and killed in this war. It's awful. But
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean that you make Jewish people here responsible,
Speaker 2: and it doesn't mean that you call for violent up
Speaker 2: risings here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Do you worry about the general backlash towards different religions
Speaker 1: and faith at the moment, I'm thinking of that Destiny Church.
Speaker 1: Brian Tarmaki led protest down Queen Street the other week
Speaker 1: where they burned flags and screamed about Christian values.
Speaker 2: Yes, we seem to be in a period of binary thinking.
Speaker 2: Good and evil and an inability to have tolerance for
Speaker 2: other points of view. I mean you can hold nuanced views.
Speaker 2: You can in relation to the Palestinians and Israel. You
Speaker 2: can feel great empathy for Palestinians whilst also feeling empathy
Speaker 2: for the Jewish community. Here. You can think that Israel
Speaker 2: has a right to defend itself whilst not liking what
Speaker 2: it's doing. Things to do with aid. You can revere
Speaker 2: Christianity and it bear your faith without denigrating people of
Speaker 2: other faiths. It doesn't have to be in either or,
Speaker 2: And we're just seeing the inability for us to talk
Speaker 2: with one another, to understand one another, and to tolerate
Speaker 2: littlone cherish other belief systems.
Speaker 1: What would you like to see done by the government
Speaker 1: or leaders to try and curb some of the sentiment.
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's not just government. We all have
Speaker 2: a responsibility here, you know, I'd say too. You know
Speaker 2: we've seen protests in our street ostensibly to support Palestinians. Well,
Speaker 2: it doesn't bring peace to the world or support Palestinians
Speaker 2: to have a sign saying globalize the Intero Fada. I mean,
Speaker 2: think about what that is. It is a making violent
Speaker 2: terrorism go worldwide. It doesn't help Palestinians to say glory
Speaker 2: to the resistance. If you want to see peace in
Speaker 2: the world, including in the Middle East or Gaza, don't
Speaker 2: support hatred. Those who chann't for death are not peace activists.
Speaker 2: So I'd say to those people, don't stand with those
Speaker 2: signs and don't stand beside those signs. And if you
Speaker 2: truly want peace in Gaza, call for an end to
Speaker 2: the war, call for the disarming of Hamas and the
Speaker 2: release of all the hostages. So that's what I say
Speaker 2: to them. We need to protect our Jewish communities. They
Speaker 2: are under enormous threat at the moment. We need police
Speaker 2: to take the threats seriously, and I question whether they
Speaker 2: are at the moment. And leaders need to call out
Speaker 2: anti Semitism and other forms of hatred and not stoke it.
Speaker 2: It's not just a government. It's not just for the government.
Speaker 2: They have their place, but you know, we all need
Speaker 2: to be bringing the temperature down and acting, acting in
Speaker 2: the interests of peace and social cohesion here in New Zealand.
Speaker 1: Do you think that we should have continued, perhaps with
Speaker 1: the hate speech laws that the Labour government proposed, but
Speaker 1: they were subsequently dropped.
Speaker 2: Obviously, you know, I'm not so sure. I'm not so
Speaker 2: sure that banning hateful speech has the kind of desired
Speaker 2: effect that we want it to have. I think there
Speaker 2: is something to the argument that at least you can
Speaker 2: you know, you can see it, and you can you
Speaker 2: can counter it, you know where it comes from when
Speaker 2: it's out there. You know, I'm not sure that a
Speaker 2: hate speech law would have added terribly much to the
Speaker 2: equation in the time that we're seeing now. I mean,
Speaker 2: after all, you know, I know of an incident that
Speaker 2: in front of police, in front of police, a protester
Speaker 2: screamed at a Jewish woman, I am going to kill you.
Speaker 2: I'm going to kill you, you fucking Jewish bitch. He was
Speaker 2: restrained by police, He was physically restrained by police, and
Speaker 2: they took no further steps against him. Despite a complaint,
Speaker 2: and despite having witnessed that threat of violence, he did nothing.
Speaker 2: They did nothing. So you know, we have rules at
Speaker 2: our box that police are not actually utilizing, and they
Speaker 2: and they should and I think, you know, when you
Speaker 2: try and shut down speech, it's it's that that question
Speaker 2: of who's the arbiter of what speeks you allow and
Speaker 2: what speak to you you don't allow. It's it's pretty difficult,
Speaker 2: isn't it. Certainly some of the things that we have
Speaker 2: been seeing on the streets of New Zealand is terribly worrying,
Speaker 2: and they do stoke hatred of Jewish people. But with
Speaker 2: the hate speech laws are the answer, I'm not so sure, a.
Speaker 4: Semi you anti.
Speaker 5: Anti racist? Rue?
Speaker 1: Are there any key facts that you'd want protesters or
Speaker 1: people to know, the differences perhaps between Israel and the
Speaker 1: IDF and your regular Jewish neighbor, because do you think
Speaker 1: that the lines are blurred in a sense of you're Jewish,
Speaker 1: you must be supporting Israel and all of its actions.
Speaker 2: Well, the first thing to say is that teos, like
Speaker 2: everyone else, have the right to support whatever they please.
Speaker 2: But I do think there is a blurring of lines.
Speaker 2: I think if you ask most Jewish people in New
Speaker 2: Zealand whether they support the right of Israel to exist,
Speaker 2: they would say yes, just like our government does. And
Speaker 2: it's across party lines. Like governments and national led governments
Speaker 2: have supported the right of Israel to exist, but they
Speaker 2: would have many different opinions about what Israel is doing.
Speaker 2: And you know, there is a We're very well known
Speaker 2: saying in the Jewish community, and that is too Jews
Speaker 2: three opinions. There are lots of different different opinions within
Speaker 2: the Jewish community. But Jewish people in New Zealand do
Speaker 2: not They do not vote in the Israeli elections. They
Speaker 2: are not part of the Israeli government. They are not
Speaker 2: responsible for what the Israeli government does. And just because
Speaker 2: people support the state of Israel to exist does not
Speaker 2: mean that Jewish people get to be responsible in some
Speaker 2: way for the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF.
Speaker 2: They are not one in the same things. Thing to
Speaker 2: say is a bit of empathy in humanity here most
Speaker 2: Jewish people. I don't know any Jewish person who doesn't
Speaker 2: have enormous empathy for innocent Palestinian people who have been
Speaker 2: adversely affected in the most profound ways by this war.
Speaker 2: But there's another side to the coin, you know, they
Speaker 2: also know lots of people who have been terribly impacted
Speaker 2: by this war in Israel. There are Jewish people in
Speaker 2: New Zealand who have family and friends who are still
Speaker 2: held hostage in Gaza. There are Jewish people in New
Speaker 2: Zealand whose family members have been killed in the attacks
Speaker 2: on the seventh of October. Whose families my own included,
Speaker 2: who have been who have spent hours and hours in
Speaker 2: bunkers sheltering from missiles, both since the seventh of October
Speaker 2: and before. So you know, we we you know, as
Speaker 2: a community, we we do feel punch drunk because we
Speaker 2: you know, we we are worried for our family and
Speaker 2: our friends. We worry for for Palestinian people who have
Speaker 2: been so profoundly affected by this war, and we're having
Speaker 2: to combat the real the real life are due hatred
Speaker 2: in New Zealand, a country that we are citizens of
Speaker 2: and we feel is our home. So it is a
Speaker 2: tremendously difficult time for Jewish people living in New Zealand.
Speaker 2: And I just say too to those who are ramping
Speaker 2: up this hatred, to take pause and to take more
Speaker 2: care and what you say and what you do, and
Speaker 2: who you will stand beside and what you will stand beside,
Speaker 2: because you know, we can see the effects of it,
Speaker 2: the real life effects is impacting the Jewish community. And
Speaker 2: you know, if you think to yourself, well on not Jewish,
Speaker 2: it doesn't affect me. It's about who we are as
Speaker 2: a society. And you let one hatred grow, or you'll
Speaker 2: let other hatreds grow in due course. So I think
Speaker 2: it's a very worrying time for New Zealand and New Zealanders.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Deborah.
Speaker 2: Go well, Chelsea.
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You
Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
Speaker 1: at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is
Speaker 1: produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also
Speaker 1: our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front
Speaker 1: Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and
Speaker 1: tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.