WEBVTT - Antisemitism is rising worldwide - what can NZ do to combat it? 

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<v Speaker 1>Kilda. I'm Chelsea Daniels and This is the Front Page,

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<v Speaker 1>a daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Anti

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<v Speaker 1>Semitic sentiment has risen globally since the war in Gaza began,

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<v Speaker 1>including in our own part of the world. A man

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<v Speaker 1>has been charged after a Melbourne synagogue was set a

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<v Speaker 1>light last Friday. The alleged anti Semitic attack has seen

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<v Speaker 1>the country's Home Affairs Minister describe it as an attack

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<v Speaker 1>on Australia. The attacks prompted the country's Labor Party to

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<v Speaker 1>push for reforming the school curriculum to teach children about antisemitism.

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<v Speaker 1>But these kind of anti Jewish attitudes aren't reserved for

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<v Speaker 1>our trans Tasman neighbors. An Enzi Jewish Council report last

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<v Speaker 1>year found that in the twelve months from October seven,

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty three, there were two hundred and twenty seven

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<v Speaker 1>and recorded anti Semitic incidents, a jump from one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and sixty six in the eight and a half years prior.

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<v Speaker 2>So.

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<v Speaker 1>How has the Gaza conflict exacerbated these tensions and how

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<v Speaker 1>can the Jewish faith be separated from the actions of

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<v Speaker 1>the State of Israel today? On the front page. Holocaust

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<v Speaker 1>Center of New Zealand chair Deborah Hart joins us to

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<v Speaker 1>discuss the rise of antisemitism here and how we might

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<v Speaker 1>be able to combat it. Deborah, what do you make

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<v Speaker 1>of the alleged arson attack on a Melbourne synagogue at

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<v Speaker 1>the weekend.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's been increasing levels of anti Semitism end violent

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<v Speaker 2>action aimed at Jewish people and institutions in Australia, culminating

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<v Speaker 2>on Friday, with actually three separate but aligned incidents, the

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<v Speaker 2>fire bombing of a synagogue, the fire bombing and vandalism

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<v Speaker 2>of a business, and some anti masked extremist terrorizing diners

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<v Speaker 2>at an Israeli owned restaurant, and miss Norm chanting death

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<v Speaker 2>to the IDF. This comes after numerous incidents of jew hatred,

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<v Speaker 2>fire bombings, hatefield rhetoric and threats of violence. So it's actually,

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<v Speaker 2>unfortunately not surpriser.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, this is the same city where we saw

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<v Speaker 1>a neo Nazi protest out in the open. It seems

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<v Speaker 1>like this type of hate has been bubbling away at

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<v Speaker 1>the surface there for some time now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, and we shouldn't feel too high and mighty ourselves

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<v Speaker 2>because there's been skyrocketing levels of jew hatred in this

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<v Speaker 2>country as well, and really pretty nasty incidents happening here.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very very similar tracks that we're seeing in Australia

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<v Speaker 2>to what we're seeing here as well. We've see skyrocketing

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<v Speaker 2>levels of anti Semitism, particularly since the seventh October, but

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<v Speaker 2>it was increasing prior to that time as well.

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<v Speaker 1>What are some of the types of abuse you've seen

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<v Speaker 1>against the Jewish community here in New Zealand?

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<v Speaker 2>Gosh, how long have you got at the Holocaust Center

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<v Speaker 2>of New Zealand. We did a survey about this time

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<v Speaker 2>last year. Actually eighty percent of parents who answered see

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<v Speaker 2>their children had suffered anti Semitic incidents at school. What

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<v Speaker 2>does that look like? Well, we're dealing with a teacher

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<v Speaker 2>who demanded of a three year old in a day

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<v Speaker 2>care to answer if he was Israeli and then man

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<v Speaker 2>handled him three times. A Jewish student was given a

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<v Speaker 2>haih Hitler salute and punched in the face. A Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>child's uniform was covered in anti Semitic slogans and symbols.

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<v Speaker 2>These are all separate attacks. A Jewish child was repeatedly harassed,

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<v Speaker 2>pushed to the ground, and his kippa the skull cat

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<v Speaker 2>knocked off his head and told he can't wear that here. Worse,

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<v Speaker 2>worse awful in universities, avert support for Humus, which is

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<v Speaker 2>a terrorist organization named such by the New Zealand government,

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<v Speaker 2>repeated calls to globalize the into Fada, campaigns at universities

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<v Speaker 2>to rid students and academics of Jews who support Israel's

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<v Speaker 2>right to exist. We've had a Jewish family had an

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<v Speaker 2>anti Semitic campaign targeted at all of their neighbors. We've

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<v Speaker 2>had at the Holocaust Center of New Zealand. Like many

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<v Speaker 2>Jewish institutions, we regularly receive hate mail. We have had

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<v Speaker 2>the graffiti was it last month in Wellington that stated

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<v Speaker 2>I hated Jews before it was called. There was an

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<v Speaker 2>assault against an Israeli tourists last month. There's been an

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<v Speaker 2>assault at a vigil for the hostages held in Gaza.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I can go on and on and on,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, and it includes Jewish businesses being doped, boycotted

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<v Speaker 2>and attacked, and demands of artists Gewish artists in museums

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<v Speaker 2>and musicians and artists to condem as well if they

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<v Speaker 2>want to keep their exhibitions in these gigs. I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it is comprehensive. It runs the gamut of violent assaults

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<v Speaker 2>to hateful retruck.

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<v Speaker 3>The punk band Bob Villan have said that they are

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<v Speaker 3>being targeted for speaking up after their comments during a

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<v Speaker 3>Glastonbury show were branded anti Semitic, and that they now

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<v Speaker 3>face a police investigation. The Rab Duo led an anti

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<v Speaker 3>Israeli military chant during their Glastonbury set at the weekend.

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<v Speaker 3>The BBC has been criticized for continuing to show the

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<v Speaker 3>live stream of the performance on Saturday. In a statement,

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<v Speaker 3>the band said, today a good many people would have

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<v Speaker 3>you believe a punk band is the number one threat

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<v Speaker 3>to world peace. Last week it was a Palestine pressure group.

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<v Speaker 3>The week before that it was another band. Where not

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<v Speaker 3>for the death of Jews, Arabs or any other race

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<v Speaker 3>or group of people, Where for the dismantling of a

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<v Speaker 3>violent treat machine.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean a lot of this sentiment against Israel and

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<v Speaker 1>the IDF has come from pro Palestinian protesters or those

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<v Speaker 1>opposed to what's happened or happening in Gaza. And of

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<v Speaker 1>course the events of October seven were horrific and inexcusable.

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<v Speaker 1>The conflict over the last two years in Gaza has

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<v Speaker 1>been extremely violent, as well, there's no denying that, and

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<v Speaker 1>there have been reports of residents being shot and killed

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<v Speaker 1>while trying to reach aid, children starving, injured unable to

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<v Speaker 1>be treated. But is it right to say that the

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<v Speaker 1>actions of IDF are not indicative of the feelings of

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<v Speaker 1>all Jewish people, just the same as the actions of

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<v Speaker 1>har Mass can't be blamed on all Palestinians.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Look, and Israel as a sovereign nation state, it's government.

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<v Speaker 2>It does what its government is going to do. Jewish

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<v Speaker 2>New Zealanders are not responsible for the actions of a

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<v Speaker 2>foreign nation state. And Jewish people have all kinds of

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<v Speaker 2>feelings about what Israel is doing. But it's not anti

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<v Speaker 2>submitic to criticize Israel. But it is anti submitic to

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<v Speaker 2>make Jewish people here responsible somehow for the actions of

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<v Speaker 2>the state of Israel. And we don't seem to do

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<v Speaker 2>that of any other group of people.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, look at the Muslim faith after nine to eleven.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean, they also came in for quite a barrage,

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<v Speaker 2>and you know that's not right either. But you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we have a war between Russia and Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 2>Nobody seems to be going down to the local Russian

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<v Speaker 2>Orthodox church and trying to set it light. We're not

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<v Speaker 2>making Russian Orthodox people responsible for gosh, how many people

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<v Speaker 2>have been killed in that war, well over one hundred

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<v Speaker 2>and fifty thousand people. They're not responsible for it. Syrian

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<v Speaker 2>people here aren't responsible for Syria killing over six hundred

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<v Speaker 2>thousand of its own citizens in its civil war. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>you can have all kinds of views about Israel, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can feel a great deal of empathy and sympathy

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<v Speaker 2>for innocent Palestinian people who have been caught up in

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<v Speaker 2>this dreadful, dreadful war. Who of us doesn't an ounce

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<v Speaker 2>of empathy feel for, you know, innocent people who have

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<v Speaker 2>been maimed and killed in this war. It's awful. But

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<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean that you make Jewish people here responsible,

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<v Speaker 2>and it doesn't mean that you call for violent up

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<v Speaker 2>risings here in New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you worry about the general backlash towards different religions

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<v Speaker 1>and faith at the moment, I'm thinking of that Destiny Church.

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<v Speaker 1>Brian Tarmaki led protest down Queen Street the other week

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<v Speaker 1>where they burned flags and screamed about Christian values.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, we seem to be in a period of binary thinking.

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<v Speaker 2>Good and evil and an inability to have tolerance for

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<v Speaker 2>other points of view. I mean you can hold nuanced views.

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<v Speaker 2>You can in relation to the Palestinians and Israel. You

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<v Speaker 2>can feel great empathy for Palestinians whilst also feeling empathy

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<v Speaker 2>for the Jewish community. Here. You can think that Israel

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<v Speaker 2>has a right to defend itself whilst not liking what

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<v Speaker 2>it's doing. Things to do with aid. You can revere

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<v Speaker 2>Christianity and it bear your faith without denigrating people of

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<v Speaker 2>other faiths. It doesn't have to be in either or,

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<v Speaker 2>And we're just seeing the inability for us to talk

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<v Speaker 2>with one another, to understand one another, and to tolerate

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<v Speaker 2>littlone cherish other belief systems.

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<v Speaker 1>What would you like to see done by the government

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<v Speaker 1>or leaders to try and curb some of the sentiment.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I think it's not just government. We all have

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<v Speaker 2>a responsibility here, you know, I'd say too. You know

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<v Speaker 2>we've seen protests in our street ostensibly to support Palestinians. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't bring peace to the world or support Palestinians

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<v Speaker 2>to have a sign saying globalize the Intero Fada. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>think about what that is. It is a making violent

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<v Speaker 2>terrorism go worldwide. It doesn't help Palestinians to say glory

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<v Speaker 2>to the resistance. If you want to see peace in

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<v Speaker 2>the world, including in the Middle East or Gaza, don't

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<v Speaker 2>support hatred. Those who chann't for death are not peace activists.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'd say to those people, don't stand with those

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<v Speaker 2>signs and don't stand beside those signs. And if you

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<v Speaker 2>truly want peace in Gaza, call for an end to

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<v Speaker 2>the war, call for the disarming of Hamas and the

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<v Speaker 2>release of all the hostages. So that's what I say

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<v Speaker 2>to them. We need to protect our Jewish communities. They

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<v Speaker 2>are under enormous threat at the moment. We need police

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<v Speaker 2>to take the threats seriously, and I question whether they

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<v Speaker 2>are at the moment. And leaders need to call out

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<v Speaker 2>anti Semitism and other forms of hatred and not stoke it.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not just a government. It's not just for the government.

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<v Speaker 2>They have their place, but you know, we all need

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<v Speaker 2>to be bringing the temperature down and acting, acting in

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<v Speaker 2>the interests of peace and social cohesion here in New Zealand.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that we should have continued, perhaps with

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<v Speaker 1>the hate speech laws that the Labour government proposed, but

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<v Speaker 1>they were subsequently dropped.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously, you know, I'm not so sure. I'm not so

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<v Speaker 2>sure that banning hateful speech has the kind of desired

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<v Speaker 2>effect that we want it to have. I think there

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<v Speaker 2>is something to the argument that at least you can

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you can see it, and you can you

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<v Speaker 2>can counter it, you know where it comes from when

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<v Speaker 2>it's out there. You know, I'm not sure that a

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<v Speaker 2>hate speech law would have added terribly much to the

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<v Speaker 2>equation in the time that we're seeing now. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>after all, you know, I know of an incident that

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<v Speaker 2>in front of police, in front of police, a protester

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<v Speaker 2>screamed at a Jewish woman, I am going to kill you.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm going to kill you, you fucking Jewish bitch. He was

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<v Speaker 2>restrained by police, He was physically restrained by police, and

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<v Speaker 2>they took no further steps against him. Despite a complaint,

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<v Speaker 2>and despite having witnessed that threat of violence, he did nothing.

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<v Speaker 2>They did nothing. So you know, we have rules at

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<v Speaker 2>our box that police are not actually utilizing, and they

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<v Speaker 2>and they should and I think, you know, when you

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<v Speaker 2>try and shut down speech, it's it's that that question

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<v Speaker 2>of who's the arbiter of what speeks you allow and

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<v Speaker 2>what speak to you you don't allow. It's it's pretty difficult,

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<v Speaker 2>isn't it. Certainly some of the things that we have

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<v Speaker 2>been seeing on the streets of New Zealand is terribly worrying,

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<v Speaker 2>and they do stoke hatred of Jewish people. But with

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<v Speaker 2>the hate speech laws are the answer, I'm not so sure, a.

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<v Speaker 4>Semi you anti.

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<v Speaker 5>Anti racist? Rue?

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<v Speaker 1>Are there any key facts that you'd want protesters or

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<v Speaker 1>people to know, the differences perhaps between Israel and the

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<v Speaker 1>IDF and your regular Jewish neighbor, because do you think

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<v Speaker 1>that the lines are blurred in a sense of you're Jewish,

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<v Speaker 1>you must be supporting Israel and all of its actions.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the first thing to say is that teos, like

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<v Speaker 2>everyone else, have the right to support whatever they please.

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<v Speaker 2>But I do think there is a blurring of lines.

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<v Speaker 2>I think if you ask most Jewish people in New

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<v Speaker 2>Zealand whether they support the right of Israel to exist,

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<v Speaker 2>they would say yes, just like our government does. And

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<v Speaker 2>it's across party lines. Like governments and national led governments

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<v Speaker 2>have supported the right of Israel to exist, but they

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<v Speaker 2>would have many different opinions about what Israel is doing.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, there is a We're very well known

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<v Speaker 2>saying in the Jewish community, and that is too Jews

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<v Speaker 2>three opinions. There are lots of different different opinions within

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<v Speaker 2>the Jewish community. But Jewish people in New Zealand do

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<v Speaker 2>not They do not vote in the Israeli elections. They

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<v Speaker 2>are not part of the Israeli government. They are not

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<v Speaker 2>responsible for what the Israeli government does. And just because

0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>people support the state of Israel to exist does not

0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.200
<v Speaker 2>mean that Jewish people get to be responsible in some

0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.840
<v Speaker 2>way for the actions of the Israeli government and the IDF.

0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:00.520
<v Speaker 2>They are not one in the same things. Thing to

0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:05.240
<v Speaker 2>say is a bit of empathy in humanity here most

0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:08.560
<v Speaker 2>Jewish people. I don't know any Jewish person who doesn't

0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:15.400
<v Speaker 2>have enormous empathy for innocent Palestinian people who have been

0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 2>adversely affected in the most profound ways by this war.

0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:22.160
<v Speaker 2>But there's another side to the coin, you know, they

0:16:22.240 --> 0:16:26.720
<v Speaker 2>also know lots of people who have been terribly impacted

0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:29.880
<v Speaker 2>by this war in Israel. There are Jewish people in

0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:33.640
<v Speaker 2>New Zealand who have family and friends who are still

0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:37.600
<v Speaker 2>held hostage in Gaza. There are Jewish people in New

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:43.320
<v Speaker 2>Zealand whose family members have been killed in the attacks

0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.760
<v Speaker 2>on the seventh of October. Whose families my own included,

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:52.240
<v Speaker 2>who have been who have spent hours and hours in

0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.240
<v Speaker 2>bunkers sheltering from missiles, both since the seventh of October

0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:02.960
<v Speaker 2>and before. So you know, we we you know, as

0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:08.600
<v Speaker 2>a community, we we do feel punch drunk because we

0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, we we are worried for our family and

0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:16.919
<v Speaker 2>our friends. We worry for for Palestinian people who have

0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.320
<v Speaker 2>been so profoundly affected by this war, and we're having

0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:25.840
<v Speaker 2>to combat the real the real life are due hatred

0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.520
<v Speaker 2>in New Zealand, a country that we are citizens of

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.360
<v Speaker 2>and we feel is our home. So it is a

0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:39.560
<v Speaker 2>tremendously difficult time for Jewish people living in New Zealand.

0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.919
<v Speaker 2>And I just say too to those who are ramping

0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:48.400
<v Speaker 2>up this hatred, to take pause and to take more

0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 2>care and what you say and what you do, and

0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.040
<v Speaker 2>who you will stand beside and what you will stand beside,

0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.120
<v Speaker 2>because you know, we can see the effects of it,

0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:03.520
<v Speaker 2>the real life effects is impacting the Jewish community. And

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:05.800
<v Speaker 2>you know, if you think to yourself, well on not Jewish,

0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.080
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't affect me. It's about who we are as

0:18:09.080 --> 0:18:13.120
<v Speaker 2>a society. And you let one hatred grow, or you'll

0:18:13.200 --> 0:18:17.240
<v Speaker 2>let other hatreds grow in due course. So I think

0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:20.320
<v Speaker 2>it's a very worrying time for New Zealand and New Zealanders.

0:18:20.560 --> 0:18:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, Deborah.

0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Go well, Chelsea.

0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:29.280
<v Speaker 1>That's it for this episode of the Front Page. You

0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:33.119
<v Speaker 1>can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage

0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:37.159
<v Speaker 1>at enzidherld dot co dot nz. The Front Page is

0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:40.880
<v Speaker 1>produced by Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also

0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:45.760
<v Speaker 1>our sound engineer. I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front

0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:49.399
<v Speaker 1>Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts, and

0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.080
<v Speaker 1>tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.