1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,600 Speaker 1: Now the Chief Children's Commissioner is worried that the government's 2 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,280 Speaker 1: latest moves to try to stop youth crime or punish 3 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: kids unnecessarily. The Children's Minister announced yesterday that Youth Court 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: judges will be given the power to declare fourteen to 5 00:00:12,560 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: seventeen year old criminals youth serious offenders. Both police and 6 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: the Youth Court will have greater powers when they deal 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: with the young serious offenders, and these offenders could be 8 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,799 Speaker 1: sent of course to the military style boot camps, et cetera, 9 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: et cetera. Doctor Claire Akmad is the Chief Children's Commissioners 10 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: with us. 11 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 2: Now, Hey, Claire, definatly, Heather, what. 12 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:33,239 Speaker 1: Are you concerned about here? Is it the potential punishment 13 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:34,400 Speaker 1: or is it the age? 14 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 2: Well, actually, first of all, Heather, I want to start 15 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 2: by acknowledging the harm that is caused by criminal offending 16 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: in our communities and want to be really clear that 17 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 2: people should not experience offending in our communities. I want 18 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 2: every single community in our country to actually be a 19 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: safe place where everyone feels safe, where children in young 20 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 2: people feel safe as well. And I don't want to 21 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 2: see any child in this country turning to offending. 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: Cool. So what are you concerned about? Is it the 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: punishment or is it the age? 24 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:17,080 Speaker 2: So what I'm concerned about here is that if we 25 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: go right back to the start, we need to acknowledge 26 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 2: that these are children that we are talking about here, 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: and from a children's rights perspective, I have some concerns 28 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 2: about these solicies. So, first of all, when it comes 29 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 2: to that young serious offender category, I'm concerned that if 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: we are going to be further stigmatizing children and putting 31 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 2: it label on them, it's going to be very hard 32 00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 2: for them to move on to that better pathway that 33 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: I think we all want them to be on for 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: the future, and when it comes to their military style academies. 35 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: So I want to acknowledge that I've heard some very 36 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: promising thing from the Minister for Children and from the governments. 37 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 2: You know, they're committing to a deeper focus on assessment, 38 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 2: on mentoring, on better transition support. These are all good 39 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 2: things and I'm looking forward to seeing the governments following 40 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 2: through on these promises. But I am concerned about anything 41 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 2: that is military style when it comes to our children, Claire. 42 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: I mean, come on, be realistic about it. Okay, if 43 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: you've got a thirteen year old who stabs a sixteen 44 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: year old to death allegedly. Do you think what do 45 00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: you think is the bigger problem to allow them to 46 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: move on with their future being labeled a young serious 47 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: offender or the fact that they've stabbed someone to death. 48 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 2: Again, Heather, I want to acknowledge that it is completely 49 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 2: unacceptable for any person, and any child or young person. 50 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 1: Yes, but so therefore can if they stab Listen, We've 51 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: just had four kids arrested for stabbing somebody. They're fourteen 52 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: and fifteen year olds who stab somebody outside the petrol 53 00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: station in Colado. They should be dealt with like serious 54 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: offenders because they are, aren't. 55 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 2: They It's important that they are held accountable for their actions. 56 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: And actually we've already got mechanisms in place that hold 57 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: young people accountable. Things like our I'm going to take 58 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 2: he courts are restorative, that this initiative therapeutic approaches that 59 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 2: actually help you maximum maximum punishment they can get under that. 60 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: Thinking about maximum punishment actually district. 61 00:03:31,720 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: No, No, that's what I'm asking you. It's my point. 62 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: What is the maximum punishment that they can get under 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 1: these systems? 64 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 2: We actually have to look at every circumstance on a 65 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 2: case case basis, So it's not actually helpful if I 66 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: talk about, you know, the maximum punishment in relation to. 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: My argument are simply clear. They're not getting punished sufficiently. 68 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: If you stab somebody, you go to jail, don't you 69 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 1: I mean, you're lucky if all you're doing is going 70 00:03:59,000 --> 00:03:59,960 Speaker 1: to a bloody boot camp. 71 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: I think it's important to recognize here that actually we 72 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 2: have sufficient provisions already in our criminal law. We don't 73 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 2: actually need to be taking the sex respect of creating 74 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 2: a young serious offender category because we know that that's 75 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: just going to drive children and young people more deeply 76 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,239 Speaker 2: into our justice system. And actually, if we think about 77 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 2: the economic and social costs, we know that that costs 78 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: millions to keep someone in prison as an adult. We 79 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 2: don't want more children going down that path. That's going 80 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 2: to have long term costs for us as a country. 81 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 2: What I'm saying is that we should actually be getting 82 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: ahead of these issues focusing on investing in prevention and 83 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 2: early intervention. A social investment approach from the government needs 84 00:04:48,440 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: to address these underlying drivers. 85 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:52,640 Speaker 1: You're not going to get any argument out of me 86 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: on that one, Claire, but I think you have to 87 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: do both right. You have to have the investment at 88 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 1: the front to stop them getting into this place in 89 00:04:58,720 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: the first place. But for the one who do get there, 90 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 1: you've got to punish them. 91 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 2: Right when it comes to our children. And I really 92 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 2: would call out to all of your listeners around the 93 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 2: MATU today, Heather, and ask them to think about the 94 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,040 Speaker 2: children in their lives. Would they seek to push those 95 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: children further away from them or would they actually seek 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: to rip them up in that love and care get 97 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 2: them into a better chap walk alongside them. This is 98 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 2: what I'm saying to you. 99 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: Claire, is that if my child, if my child children, 100 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: if my child was fifteen years old and stabbed somebody, 101 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: I think they should go to jail. 102 00:05:39,480 --> 00:05:42,279 Speaker 2: And I'm not saying that we should not hold children 103 00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: accountable for their actions. That we already have mechanisms that 104 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 2: allow us to do this, things like KTA program in 105 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 2: South Auckland that works with these children who have engaged 106 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 2: in criminal offending. It is showingly positive outcomes. Eighty percent 107 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 2: of those young people are not going on to re offend. 108 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: So what I am trying to make clear here is 109 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 2: that we have things that work. We need to invest 110 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 2: in them more and scale them up. 111 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: All right, Claire, listen, Thank you. I do appreciate your 112 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: time very much, Doctor Claikmat, the Chief Children's Commissioner. Dear God, 113 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,559 Speaker 1: thereby the grace of God, I just hope my child 114 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: never ends up in a situation like that. I already 115 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: put them in a form of jail. By the way, 116 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: it's called time out. It's as bedroom. 117 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Alan Drive. 118 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: Listen live to news talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, 119 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.