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Speaker 1: Right now. If you're one of those people who flies

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Speaker 1: and texts the yes, I will offset my carbon emissions

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Speaker 1: by planting a pine tree, thank you very much, and

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Speaker 1: then feel totally fine about flying, then you might want

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Speaker 1: to listen to this. The Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment

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Speaker 1: has recommended a big shakeup in the way that we

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Speaker 1: do forestry in this country. He's put out a report

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Speaker 1: that recommends we should stop using pine forest to offset

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Speaker 1: carbon emissions. He basically thinks we should phase out forestry

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Speaker 1: offsets for carbon emissions. David Norton is a strategic science

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Speaker 1: advisor with pure advantage with me tonight, David.

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Speaker 2: Good evening, Cured, Nice to be here, Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Good to have you on the show. So why can't

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Speaker 1: we keep using pine forest? It seems easy to do

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Speaker 1: and feels good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does seem easy to do and it does

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Speaker 2: feel good. That The problem, the fundamental problem, is that

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Speaker 2: we've got to stop producing emissions. We can't offset our

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Speaker 2: way out of the climate emergency. So I guess the

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Speaker 2: first reason is that we've also got to stop producing

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Speaker 2: all the CO two out there.

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Speaker 1: But if we are going to keep doing it, which

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Speaker 1: let's face it, we are going to keep doing for

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Speaker 1: some time to come. Then are we not better off

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Speaker 1: offsetting it by planting trees, by planting pine? Is that

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Speaker 1: is that a problem now?

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Speaker 2: Yes, So that's a really good question. And the problem

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Speaker 2: with pines is that there's no guarantee they're going to

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Speaker 2: be permanent. So when you want to offset something, you

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Speaker 2: want to be sure that carbon is going to stay

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Speaker 2: in the ground forever. And there is zero guarantee they're

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Speaker 2: going to be permanent. They'll grow for thirty forty fifty years,

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Speaker 2: but beyond that we know very little about how they'll perform.

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Speaker 2: So we'd be clear here, we're talking about permanent radiator

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Speaker 2: pine forests have been planted for carbon. We're not talking

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Speaker 2: about sustainably managed plantations for timber and the real warriors.

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Speaker 2: They're not going to be permanent, So it's going to

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Speaker 2: be a liability. The guys people who plant them made

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Speaker 2: their money over the short term from the carbon offsets,

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Speaker 2: But who's going to be liable for the environmental the

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Speaker 2: downstream impacts of those forests collapse, and of course for

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Speaker 2: the loss in the carbon. And that's the real concern.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean collapse? What will happen to them

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Speaker 1: after that period of time.

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Speaker 2: Well, there's no even to say that a pine forest. Remember,

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Speaker 2: pine trees come from California. They're adapted to the Californian environment.

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Speaker 2: There is no evidence that pine forest will stay permanently

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Speaker 2: in the ground in Altero and New Zealand. It's not

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Speaker 2: adapted to our New Zealand environment. And in fact is

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Speaker 2: being suggested that as climate change becomes more and more

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Speaker 2: extreme weather from climate change that these tall, thin pine

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Speaker 2: trees that have been carefully selected to grow fast and

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Speaker 2: supquest lots of carbon, become very prone to wind throw

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Speaker 2: to all sorts of extreme storm events.

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Speaker 1: So they'll just down fall over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and so the useless. So someone's got a

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Speaker 2: liability for the carbon that's been stored in them. It's

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Speaker 2: an economic cost, probably the government in the future. But

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Speaker 2: what about all the downstream impacts that are going to

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Speaker 2: occur when those forests collapse and impact downstream communities?

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Speaker 1: So what's the what do we do? I mean, the thing,

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Speaker 1: whenever we talk about climate change, I just go I

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Speaker 1: don't care, Like it's easier for me to just actually

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Speaker 1: not think about it and carry on with my life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know what I mean, totally Look, look, we've

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Speaker 2: got to try and reduce our emissions. That there's no

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Speaker 2: two ways a doubt that, and every little step helps

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Speaker 2: of that. But I think we've got to think about

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Speaker 2: New Zealand and what New Zealand is facing. So cycling Gabriel,

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Speaker 2: you know, is going to happen again and again and again,

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Speaker 2: and it's not a one off event, and we've got

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Speaker 2: to start thinking how do we build resilient landscapes. How

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Speaker 2: do we make our catchments, our landscapes resilient to these

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Speaker 2: storm events and forests are really important, but we need

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Speaker 2: permanent native forests. And I'm involved with Pure Advantage in

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Speaker 2: this project called Recloaking Papa Too our Nukou, which is

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Speaker 2: proposing that we restore, regenerate, assist the development of two

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Speaker 2: million hectares of native forest, not in big blocks, but

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Speaker 2: carefully interwoven through landscapes in New Zealand to try and

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Speaker 2: build landscape resilience and have those native forests will also

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Speaker 2: draw down.

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Speaker 1: Carbon as well as not as much as the pine though,

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Speaker 1: right that's the problem with NAIs and they take so much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but they'll do it over the longer term and

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Speaker 2: they'll help build up our resilient landscapes. And the Commission

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Speaker 2: is quite clear in his report that you know, native

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Speaker 2: forest can actually provide all these benefits and of course

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Speaker 2: they help bio diversity. The part of who we are.

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Speaker 1: Who who pays for them?

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Speaker 2: Well, again he recommends by taking forestry out of the

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Speaker 2: t s, it's going to make the emitters of carbon

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Speaker 2: Dix side have to pay more to buy their carbon

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Speaker 2: preaduce from government and that money then gets invested back

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Speaker 2: into doing to doing forestry cross and.

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Speaker 1: Then we pay more. We have higher power bills presumably

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Speaker 1: whatever it might be, you know.

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Speaker 2: Well not none if it's renewably generated. And I mean

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Speaker 2: that's the whole thing. The whole idea of the mission

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Speaker 2: we have scheme is to get us to change our behavior.

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Speaker 1: And I suppose, but then in my petrol will be

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Speaker 1: more expensive, won't it Ye?

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Speaker 2: But then maybe we need to be have more evs

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Speaker 2: and use use use other trans.

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Speaker 1: Haven't got a story for you, David. Have you read

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Speaker 1: the story today? Go ahead, a reader. There's a study

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Speaker 1: from Aukland University. Basically, we can't have the pine forests,

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Speaker 1: we can't have the e vs. I'm banging my head

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Speaker 1: against the wall here David, I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 2: It's about no, it's not about tuning out. It's about

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Speaker 2: about looking at everything we do and thinking about all

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Speaker 2: those individual small actions can all help in the long run.

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Speaker 2: But I think to me and my expertise as ecology,

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Speaker 2: as a forest ecologist and to me, we need to

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Speaker 2: build resilient communities, resilient landscapes in New Zealand, and native

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Speaker 2: forests interwoven through our primary production systems, our farms and

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Speaker 2: our horticultural areas can really help build that and it's

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Speaker 2: going to be in the long term, and it's what

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Speaker 2: we all want all. We all relate to cody or

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Speaker 2: to cabbage trees, or to cattarou and toy you know,

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Speaker 2: it's all part of who we are.

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Speaker 1: And I think I don't know how much I relate

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Speaker 1: to a cabbage tree, but I certainly I think if

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Speaker 1: we're going to go down that track, I think I

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Speaker 1: would relate more to a cabbage tree than I would

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Speaker 1: to a pine. That's a fair point. Hey, thanks for

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Speaker 1: coming on the show, David. Interesting stuff. David Norton Pure

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Speaker 1: Advantage Strategic Science Advisor talking there about the Parliamentary Commission

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Speaker 1: for the Environment saying that you know pine plantations, not

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Speaker 1: the plantations, but PEDDICKX Peddicks filled with pine not necessarily

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Speaker 1: the best thing in the long run.

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