1 00:00:00,680 --> 00:00:01,800 Speaker 1: Killer duper see Allen. 2 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 2: We are only hours away from the big Ukraine meeting 3 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 2: at the White House. Selenski is set to meet with 4 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: Trump and he's bringing with a hype squad of European leaders. 5 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 2: This has obviously discussed Putin's demand. Vessel Mroshnichenko is the 6 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 2: Ukrainian ambassador to Australia and New Zealand and with US 7 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:17,720 Speaker 2: now Vessel welcome back. 8 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: Hi. 9 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: Are you guys prepared to give up? Don bess. 10 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,799 Speaker 1: Well, I think it's the wrong question, because it's not 11 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: about the giving up, it's about the people who live 12 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: there and about their future. And you have to understand 13 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: that Russians have invaded Ukraine eleven years ago and they 14 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,199 Speaker 1: came back with much bigger war because they got emboldened 15 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: by the very weak reaction and they wanted to finish 16 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: the job. They wanted to take over a Kiev in 17 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: three days and occupy Ukraine in three weeks. They failed miserably. 18 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: We defeated Russians as a approaching Kiev and three and 19 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: a half years later overwhelm million casualties later, mostly on 20 00:00:56,440 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: the Russian side, but many Ukrainians have suffered a lot 21 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: as well. The only control thirty percent of the territory. 22 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: So what can we achieve by rewarding an aggrasser. But 23 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: rewarding a grasser, we're going to get more aggression. Of course, 24 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,119 Speaker 1: we want peace more than anybody else, but we didn't 25 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: start the war. Russian studied the war. So we have 26 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: to work together with America, with Europe, with New Zealand 27 00:01:18,360 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: and Australia in forcing Russia to stop this war. And 28 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: Russia understands it is only hard power, and we have 29 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: to demonstrate the power which is in unity, because unity 30 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: is with strengths. 31 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 2: Okay, how do you think, I mean, how much of 32 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: a make or break is it not belonging to NATO, 33 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: because that's off the table according to Trump. 34 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: Well, what we are talking about is about security guarantees 35 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:44,880 Speaker 1: because Russian has invaded US twice already in the past 36 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 1: eleventy years. And you know, majority of Russians support this war. 37 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: They won't put him to finish the job, but he 38 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: cannot deliver, so he cannot subjugate entire Ukraine. Now he 39 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 1: will probably get inspired to do that later. For us 40 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:01,760 Speaker 1: to prevent that from happening, we need to have strong 41 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: military and we need to have strong economy. But on 42 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: the military side, we need to create conventional strategic have 43 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,800 Speaker 1: conventional strategic weapons and other equipment and strong army to 44 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:18,880 Speaker 1: deter Russia from the invasion in the future. Of course, 45 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: we'll need support of the Europeans, perhaps you know, boots 46 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: on the ground from France in Britain. That would be 47 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: kind of like stabilization forces which will deter Russians from 48 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 1: an invasion in the future. And Americans must be committed 49 00:02:30,840 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 1: as well. 50 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: Does this not frustrate you? It frustrates me endlessly that 51 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 2: the Europeans have such strong opinions about what Ukraine needs 52 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 2: to do on Europe's behalf, and they're prepared to drop 53 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: everything and fly over to the White House to make 54 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 2: sure that Zelinsky does the right thing, but when it 55 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 2: comes to actually putting boots on the ground, they failed 56 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 2: to do it. 57 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: Well, it's not really true, to be frank, because European 58 00:02:49,960 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: Union is the biggest donor of Ukraine. They have provided 59 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: over one hundred and billion euros in assistance. They continue 60 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: supporting Ukraine very heavily. We are on the pass towards 61 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: European integration. But what is at stake for New Zealand 62 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: Because Look, Russia is a permanent member of the UN 63 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: Security Council. Russia has nuclear weapons, and they decided to 64 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: destroy democracy next door because the fact that Ukraine is 65 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: on the map as an independent country is the root 66 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: cause of war. This is what Putin is saying, because 67 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: the only threat that Ukraine has is that we are 68 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: democracy and he's the dictatorship, and that was a threat 69 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: to his regime, which I agree with, right, But the 70 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: fact that he could do it and he could invade 71 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: the country open up a Pandora box. Because other dictators 72 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: are watching that and they're going to use it as 73 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: a president. They're going to use it as a blueprint. 74 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,000 Speaker 1: And they also have nuclear weapons and they have large armies, 75 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: and they will be changing borders because if Russians can 76 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: get away with even technically controlling twenty percent of Ukrainian territory, 77 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: which we may end up with, you know, we will 78 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: never see the territory, but they may end up controlling 79 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: that land, just as Soviet Union controlled lith and Estonia 80 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: during the Soviet Union. Right. But it's very dangerous for 81 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: New Zealand because for a small democracy, you know, you 82 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 1: don't have any protection except for rules based international system, 83 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: which is this mental I understand. 84 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 2: The argument, yep, I understand the argument, Vessel. I appreciate 85 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:14,080 Speaker 2: your time as it always do. Thanks so much, Vessel Maroshnichenko, 86 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:16,720 Speaker 2: who is the ambassador of Ukraine to Ozzie and New Zealand. 87 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: For more from Hither Duplessy Allen Drive, listen live to 88 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 2: news Talks it'd be from four pm weekdays, or follow 89 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: the podcast on iHeartRadio.