1 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:05,880 Speaker 1: Kiota. 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a 3 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 2: daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. Scams have 4 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 2: always been a hot topic. As technology gets more sophisticated, 5 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 2: kiwis of all ages are becoming vulnerable to falling for them. 6 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: Estimates of how much money. 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: We've lost varies, though one net Safe and Global Anti 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: Scam Alliance report estimated over two billion dollars. 9 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:40,920 Speaker 1: Was lost last year alone. 10 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: So what has been done to try and solve this crisis? 11 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: And do banks and the government need to take more responsibility? 12 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 2: And Zet Herald's senior reporter Lane Nichols joins us today 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 2: on the Front Page to discuss the latest scammers and what. 14 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: Solutions there could be. 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 2: First off, Lane, you've been covering scams and banking extensively 16 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 2: for years now. It feels like you've become the country's 17 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 2: leading journalist in this space. 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: What got you into it? 19 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,839 Speaker 3: Well, it was accidental, really. I was assigned a story 20 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:21,839 Speaker 3: about a guy that had lost one hundred and thirty 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 3: six thousand dollars just disappeared from his bank account down 22 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 3: in South London and I got talking to him and 23 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 3: it really just snowball and it's one of those things 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 3: where you start writing about something and people start writing 25 00:01:34,800 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: unto you, saying the same thing happened to me, but 26 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 3: only with yeah, I just it became a bit of 27 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 3: a fixation in a two and a half year project since. 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 2: You began covering this round, How has the world of scamming, 29 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: I guess evolved? So we always think about scams like 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 2: some Nigerian princes sending us an email because we've won 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 2: some money, or we've won some money and we can 32 00:01:58,000 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 2: send our bank details through and stuff. 33 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 1: How sophisticated are they now? 34 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 3: Well, I mean it's constantly changing. It's a landscape that's 35 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 3: this ever evolving. People describe it as whackamol. You know, 36 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: one gets stamped out and then a new one springs up. 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 3: The technology aspect with AI, which is starting to come 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 3: into things. I've done stories about AI deep fakes, one 39 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 3: of Christopher Luxon apparently telling pensions that they should invest 40 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: in cryptocurrency. A woman lost two hundred and fifty thousand 41 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,079 Speaker 3: dollars to it. It's incredible how skilled the scammers are 42 00:02:32,080 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 3: as manipulated and how talented they are at what they do. 43 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 3: You've moved on from things like tech scams, which you 44 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:42,800 Speaker 3: still get people sending out malicious links that will download 45 00:02:43,280 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 3: software onto your computer and send all your your login details, 46 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,840 Speaker 3: your banking back to to someone wherever they are. People 47 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 3: being cold called, right through to deep fakes. It's constantly changing. 48 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 3: Who knows what's around the corner. 49 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: The scariest world because if your voice all your faces 50 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 2: on the internet, then it can potentially be used. Well. 51 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: I've heard the stories about, you know, mothers getting calls 52 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: from their kids who live overseas and it's their voice 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: asking her for money for an emergency. 54 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:15,360 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just insane. 55 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: It's terrifying. How do you know what's real and what's not? 56 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 3: And that's only going to get harder, I would imagine 57 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 3: as things go forward. 58 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: There's a huge emotional toll on victims. Obviously. 59 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:28,519 Speaker 2: What are some of the commonalities that you've seen through 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 2: the victims that you've spoken to. 61 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 3: It's funny you asked that I was going back through 62 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 3: my dictaphone recently and listening to they to delete and 63 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 3: make some space, and I was listening to interview after 64 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: interview with people who had lost their life savings, listening 65 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: to what they've been through and the emotional toll, the embarrassment, 66 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 3: the shame, you know, the financial stress that's put them under. 67 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: But just the worst thing was their loss and trust 68 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: in humanity. Really, how do you trust anyone ever again 69 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 3: when someone that you believed to be honest and helping 70 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 3: you has has swindled you for everything you've got. 71 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 2: What are some of the most common reasons banks use 72 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 2: to deny liability. 73 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 3: I suppose, as it stands, banks have to refund you 74 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:19,479 Speaker 3: if it was an unauthorized fraud, if someone's got into 75 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 3: your bank account or access to your credit card details 76 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: and in stolen your money. Where it becomes difficult. Where 77 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 3: it has become difficult is when it was an authorized fraud, 78 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 3: the sort of thing if it's a romance scam, or 79 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 3: if it was an investment scam, where you've been tricked 80 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 3: into thinking you were sending your money to a bank 81 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 3: for a bond investment, or helping out your lover who's 82 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: stuck on an oil rig off the coast of Alaska, 83 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 3: and you've sent that money yourself. In those cases, the 84 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 3: banks tend to deny liability unless there are really obvious 85 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: red flags that the banks should have picked up that 86 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 3: they were on notice. That the customer was being scanned 87 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 3: and they could have stepped down. Then they can be 88 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: taken to task by the banking on itsman. But the 89 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 3: cases that I've looked at, that very really happens. 90 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: So what are some of the main barriers for people 91 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:10,760 Speaker 2: getting trying to get their money back. 92 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 3: Well, most of most of the time the money has 93 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: been whisked offshore, and once it goes offshore, the police 94 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 3: tend to throw their hands up and say, look, it's 95 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 3: too difficult, we don't have jurisdiction. You're on your own. 96 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 3: What police tend to do is go for the low 97 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 3: hanging fruit, which is the domestic money mules whose accounts 98 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 3: have been used to receive the money transfer it offseas 99 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:34,799 Speaker 3: to the scammers. Those ones are a little bit easier 100 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 3: for police to identify and prosecute, but that leaves the 101 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 3: ring leaders, who are generally offshore, free just to carry 102 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 3: on doing what they're doing. 103 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 4: There's been big buildings that we've highlighted before, tucked away 104 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 4: on one of the floors could be one of these 105 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 4: scam call centers. So a lot of these scammers, especially 106 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,240 Speaker 4: the bosses, they will go create side businesses with that 107 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:57,559 Speaker 4: dirty money to make it look as if they created 108 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,880 Speaker 4: a legitimate company. They're moving more towards the They call 109 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 4: them safehouses, where you can have a call center group 110 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:06,039 Speaker 4: that's got one hundred scammers in it, but they're in 111 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 4: five different locations because if one location gets hit and 112 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 4: then the other one's shut down. 113 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:15,360 Speaker 2: I've heard of stories of their being warehouses, of people 114 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 2: just in front of laptops doing this kind of thing. 115 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: I think I read about it in a sense of 116 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: romance scams, so it's obviously a huge money making business overseas. Yeah, 117 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: how what are some of the ways that people can 118 00:06:27,839 --> 00:06:29,560 Speaker 2: be I say, I guess vigilant. 119 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 3: The difficulty is these people are so convincing. One persons 120 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 3: described it to me as being like they were wrapped 121 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 3: up in security blanket and the person did most of 122 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 3: the talking, he had answers, but every question he might 123 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 3: have before he'd even answered it. And people are just 124 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: disarmed and they stopped suspecting. If you're cold called, for instance, 125 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 3: you've got to be really careful. You don't know who 126 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,280 Speaker 3: this person is. You better to hang up, take the 127 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,720 Speaker 3: number and then go and find the agency or the 128 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 3: organation they're ringing from. Find them on the website and 129 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 3: lock them up and call them yourself and double check 130 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 3: person who's calling you is who they say they are. 131 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 2: What are some of the cases you've covered so far 132 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 2: this year that show that. 133 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 1: Things aren't necessarily improving? 134 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: Cases that I covered this year, there was a woman who 135 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 3: lost five hundred and fifty thousand dollars. She had rung 136 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 3: the bank. The bank had helped her send the money 137 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 3: to an account at another bank, and the name of 138 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:31,240 Speaker 3: that account was a known mule account that the bank 139 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 3: that was sending the money had already been on notice 140 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: of and was involved in a previous scam. Unfortunately, she 141 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 3: hasn't got any money back, and that's been invested by 142 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,119 Speaker 3: the banking Onosman. Another really interesting case I've been looking 143 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: at is a fellow, a pensioner in Mount Roskill who 144 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: sent one hundred and fifty six hundred and fifty eight 145 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 3: thousand dollars back from his UK bank account to his 146 00:07:56,160 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 3: New Zealand whist Pac account. When he keep it in 147 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 3: the numbers, he made one digit mistake and the money 148 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 3: was sent to another account at WISPAC belonging to a 149 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 3: woman who gratefully received the money and never gave it back. 150 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 3: He in the end after our coverage was refunded by 151 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: Barclay's Bank in the UK got a full refund and 152 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:19,960 Speaker 3: the woman and her partner are now before the court 153 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: accused of receiving dolen money and refusing to return it. 154 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 2: Several of your stories highlight cases where banks failed to 155 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 2: spot those glaring red flags. Are there any ways that 156 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 2: I guess in the last few years that they're trying harder? 157 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: Yes, to be fair, the banking sector has stepped up, 158 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 3: partly under the threat of regulation by the government, but 159 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 3: they are making changes and they have implimented changes. They've 160 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 3: brought in confirmation of paye system where if you're sending money, 161 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 3: you can now check that the that the account name 162 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 3: that you're seeing it to matches the account that you 163 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: think it is. A lot of the people I've written about, 164 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 3: if it have been in place, they wouldn't have lost 165 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 3: their money. Banks have stopped sending out text messages to 166 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: customers which confuse people and they think there could be 167 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 3: a scam. They have introduced a system now where they 168 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 3: are going to start refunding authorized frauds, people who've lost 169 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 3: money to investment scams and the like. If the bank 170 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 3: has failed to meet some basic obligations, and the government's 171 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,559 Speaker 3: just announced a new alliance between all sorts of organizations 172 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 3: which have skin in the game around scams, banks, telecommunication companies, 173 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: net Safe Financial Markets Authority, all of these organizations which 174 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: are now trying to share more information and stamp out 175 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 3: scams as they emerge, and try and prevent people losing 176 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 3: their money. 177 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 2: From your investigations, what kind of preventative steps do you 178 00:09:55,280 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 2: believe banks should be implementing, But I guess haven't yet. 179 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: A lot of the cases I've seen, people have made 180 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: a very unusual series of transactions which will completely at 181 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 3: odds to their history of banking, and I think there 182 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 3: needs to be better systems algorithms that pick up those 183 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: really unusual transactions and put a whole on it. Put 184 00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 3: a bit of friction in the system. The trouble is 185 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: that slows things down in Customers these days want to 186 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,599 Speaker 3: be able to have everything happening immediately. But personally, I 187 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 3: would rather take a phone call from a bank employee 188 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 3: and say, hey, this doesn't look right. Is this you 189 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 3: have you authorized this payment? Rather than lose two hundred 190 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 3: thousand dollars to scammers. 191 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: Well, because sometimes they do that. 192 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,319 Speaker 2: If you're like, I don't know if there's some charges 193 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 2: in Croatia or something, and it can see that I've 194 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:47,040 Speaker 2: gone to count down. 195 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 3: Yes, I had that recently, did you. Yeah, I got scammed, Yeah, 196 00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 3: of someone. I don't know how, but someone managed to 197 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 3: find my bank account details and all of a sudden, 198 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: I had a series of transactions from Canada going out 199 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 3: out a petrol for some pharmacy and four hundred and 200 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:04,599 Speaker 3: fifty bucks that disappeared. 201 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,600 Speaker 1: They obviously didn't know who they were dealing with, but. 202 00:11:08,640 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 3: To the creatit. I raised the issue with ab ASB 203 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 3: looked into it, and they refunded me the money because 204 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 3: it was an unauthorized fraud. So I appreciated that. 205 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. So if I guess if there's some kind of 206 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: AI or some like algorithm like you said that says, oh, 207 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: Chelsea doesn't usually shop at hunting and fishing, but there 208 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 2: are I don't know. I'm just thinking of the places 209 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 2: where I wouldn't be usually seen. 210 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: Then something similar that would be a good idea. 211 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: Well that banks do have that, and you know, to 212 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 3: the credit they are investing a lot of money in 213 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: the space. They really pulled out all stops on advertising 214 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: campaigns recently to try and educate customers. But you do 215 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: get the feeling that it's a little bit too late, 216 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:50,560 Speaker 3: certainly for a lot of the people I've written about, 217 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 3: And some of this might not have happened hadn't it 218 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 3: been for the government stepping in and morning they were 219 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 3: going to wave a big stick. 220 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: You've always thought that you would never get scammed. You're 221 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: not alone because so many people think that they're not 222 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: going to get scammed until they get scammed. 223 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: Like my colleague James's wife Michelle, what happened. 224 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 5: We bought some shoes online and they were supposed to 225 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 5: be k Nightin's when they arrived, not Doc Martins. So 226 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 5: these deeny tiny things were there signs There were red 227 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 5: flags waving all over the show, but I said go 228 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 5: for it because I wanted the conversation to win. 229 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 2: Well, thinking back on all of the people that you've 230 00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: spoken to, I know that each case is individual, so individual. 231 00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: Are there any that stick out to your mind. 232 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 2: That when you're trolling through those banking ombudsman reports, which 233 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:44,679 Speaker 2: I can only assume are very very long, and is 234 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: there anything that sticks out to you that makes you 235 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 2: keep going? 236 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 3: Everyone is different, but there's been some real tales of 237 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 3: heartache and a lot of tears on the phone. One 238 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: that really sticks with me is is a Spanish fellow 239 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 3: from Funk and a Borgia artists who's a lovely guy. 240 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 3: He lost a very very large sum of money when 241 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 3: he was swindled by I think it was the City 242 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: Bank bank scam that was going around, and when he 243 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 3: talked to me about his loss and what he'd gone 244 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 3: through and his family, he told me that he felt 245 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 3: he had failed his wife and that was really hard 246 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 3: to hear. Fortunately, the banking conaceman found ben Z was 247 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 3: at fault and he received was seventy percent refund in 248 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,440 Speaker 3: that case, which was great. Like I say, a lot 249 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 3: of people aren't so lucky. 250 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 2: What changes do you think are urgently needed in the 251 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 2: banking sector or even just societally. 252 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: I suppose well. 253 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 3: One thing which I know the banks are working on 254 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 3: is trying to share more information about know and mule accounts. 255 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,360 Speaker 3: Mule accounts are people that agree to have receive money 256 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 3: into their account and then they are under instructions to 257 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 3: send it straight overseas and it makes it very difficult 258 00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 3: for police to the track where the money's gone. Some 259 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: of these people have been tricked into into having their 260 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: accounts used. They might be romance victim scams. Some people 261 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 3: are just taking a cup and getting some money. And 262 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 3: I'm following several of those cases for the courts. But 263 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:14,719 Speaker 3: there have been cases where banks have known that they 264 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 3: are harboring a suspect account or a suspect customer, they 265 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 3: haven't shared that information with other banks, and these people 266 00:14:22,440 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 3: have been able to go on open other bank accounts 267 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: and keep receiving money, and people have lost money. There 268 00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 3: was one guy who just sold a business. He invested 269 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,000 Speaker 3: the proceeds, which was a million dollars. Turned out it 270 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: was a scam. He lost a lot. The person who 271 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 3: received his money, although it was known because he'd flagged 272 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: it with police a victim, he was able to open 273 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 3: bank accounts to other banks and go off and steal 274 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 3: another eight hundred thousand dollars over the next nine months. 275 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: So better information sharing around that sort of thing would 276 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: be able to protect a lot more people and lane. 277 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 2: Lastly, how optimistic are you about the future of this sector? 278 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 2: And can New Zealand ever be known internationally as somewhere 279 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: not too. 280 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 1: I was going to say fudge. 281 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,200 Speaker 3: With at the moment, I'm completely paranoid. Every time I 282 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 3: make a bank transfer, I'm terrified I'm going to muck 283 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: up the number. I'm worried that people are going to 284 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 3: get into my bank account and steal more cash. And 285 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 3: I worry for a lot of other people out there who, 286 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 3: despite all the warnings, despite all the stories, are still 287 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 3: losing their money to scammers. At the moment. Unfortunately, New 288 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 3: Zealand is behind the eight ball when you look at 289 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 3: us compared to Australia and compared to the UK, for instance, 290 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 3: our protections are not as advanced as some of those countries. 291 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 3: There is work under way to bring that up to 292 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 3: stand it and I applaud that and I'm hopeful that 293 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: that can continue at pace so we can get up 294 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 3: and be on par with some of those countries that 295 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: we like to compare ourselves with. 296 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, Lane, Welcome. 297 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 2: That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You 298 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:08,239 Speaker 2: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 299 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: at enzidherld dot co dot MZ. 300 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: The Front Page is produced by Ethan. 301 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our editor. 302 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 303 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: Subscribe to the front page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 304 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 2: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 305 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 2: behind the headlines.