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Speaker 1: You're listening to a podcast from News Talks at b

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Speaker 1: Follow this and our Wide Ranger podcast now on iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: Straight down.

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Speaker 2: The Middle Guy trucks.

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Speaker 1: To get inside the game from every end goal. It's

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Speaker 1: Rugby Direct with Elliot Smith and Leam Nabier, powered by

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Speaker 1: News Talks.

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Speaker 3: Edb focom into Rugby Zurrit's special guests for us today

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Speaker 3: on the podcast Long Time player Agent. He's with the team,

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Speaker 3: Bruce Sharrick. Do you want to us what is it Bruce?

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Speaker 3: About thirty years of player management?

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Speaker 2: You make me so it is approaching thirty years.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I guess while before the game in New Zealand became professional,

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Speaker 2: I had friends that were playing professional rugby league and

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Speaker 2: I was the go to guy. Albeit didn't have a

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Speaker 2: clue what it was doing, but it was for nights

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Speaker 2: out in leather jackets. So we cracked on well before

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Speaker 2: RUGU went pro in ninety six.

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Speaker 3: Before we get into some issues around the game. I

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Speaker 3: guess for our listeners, what does a player agent do?

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Speaker 3: Because maybe they've got this idea in their mind that

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Speaker 3: you sit there around the contract table every couple of

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Speaker 3: years when the contracts up and you negotiate, But what

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Speaker 3: are the day ends, day out of a player agent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I think everyone will have a different outlook

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Speaker 2: on that. In the agency world, I've always been strong

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Speaker 2: on the fact that our success is measured on their exit,

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Speaker 2: in other words, how well we've prepared them for life

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Speaker 2: after the game, because I think we're being honest. We

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Speaker 2: all know that the game is short in an overall

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Speaker 2: span of a player's life. So look for me, the

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Speaker 2: contract negotiation, you look, it's critical because that's the I guess,

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Speaker 2: the engine that makes the money that allows them to

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Speaker 2: get on and do what they do. But I'll be honest,

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Speaker 2: once it's done, that goes in the draw and a

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Speaker 2: good contract's never seen. Okay, you just carry on and

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Speaker 2: get on with the game. I spend the majority of

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Speaker 2: my time with those top end players about preparing them

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Speaker 2: with wealth creation, set protection, and just trying to get

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Speaker 2: them out and get their heads around the fact. They

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Speaker 2: had a conversation yesterday with an up and coming pro

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Speaker 2: and said, it's the time you start to thinking of

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Speaker 2: yourself as a small business. So every time we have

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Speaker 2: a conversation, we'll be positioning you as a small business,

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Speaker 2: and ultimately that business will close and we've got to

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Speaker 2: think about the new business you'll open at the end

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Speaker 2: of this one. So I think if that's always been

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Speaker 2: my mentality, and when Craignis and I got together, we

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Speaker 2: should it was two thousand and two, I think for memory, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: about two two we had a similar outlook and that's

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Speaker 2: why we sort of got together, and it was about

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Speaker 2: helping the player prepare for exit.

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Speaker 3: Is that easy to have these conversations with players that

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Speaker 3: are living in the moment and playing rugby, rugby league

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Speaker 3: whatever it might be, at eighteen or twenty or whatever,

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Speaker 3: and young age, and they're not thinking about the future.

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Speaker 3: Is it easy to have the conversations.

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Speaker 2: No, it's not. It's challenging. And there's all sorts of

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Speaker 2: backgrounds that play the game right and some have a

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Speaker 2: strong family network and support that understand that this is

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Speaker 2: a small part of their life. Others it is the

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Speaker 2: bill and end all, and it is the setting up

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Speaker 2: of a family unit. And so I always say to them,

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Speaker 2: I'm not your fan. You got enough of those, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to blow smoke up the proferbial I've

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Speaker 2: gotta be honest with you and I'm going to try

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Speaker 2: and guide you through this. So at times I may

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Speaker 2: say things you don't like, but I always know this,

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Speaker 2: I've got you back. So yeah, it's not easy, but

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Speaker 2: one of the most insightful things that ever happened for me. Ironically,

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Speaker 2: I look back and a guy called Nathan Wallace, a

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Speaker 2: neuro scientist here in New Zealand. It was through a

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Speaker 2: player association gathering here in Auckland, and he was talking

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Speaker 2: about the development of the frontal cortexs and the reason

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Speaker 2: we were having that conversation was that we were having

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Speaker 2: these quite meaningful conversations with eighteen to twenty five year olds,

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Speaker 2: but then to understand that frontal cortex is out for

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Speaker 2: renovation for that period of time, and how we navigate

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Speaker 2: around those conversations to ensure they're meaningful. The key reason

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Speaker 2: at the time, my own son was at that age

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Speaker 2: where I was going, this will make sense and it

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Speaker 2: was a massive learning and I'd encourage any parent, let

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Speaker 2: alone a football parent, to understand what's going on with

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Speaker 2: your adolescent children because it helps parenting so so much.

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Speaker 4: Or Bruce, you're in quite a unique position in that

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Speaker 4: you swing across both codes rugby and rugby league and

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Speaker 4: acting for some of the biggest names in the game

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Speaker 4: like Roger two of us ask who's unfortunately had done

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Speaker 4: his acl and that'll be his time and the Warriors

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Speaker 4: come to a close. But if we look at a

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Speaker 4: through the lens at rugby Union at the moments, what's

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Speaker 4: your sort of top line thoughts on the state of

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Speaker 4: the game in New Zealand. So, yes, there's been a

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Speaker 4: lot of challenges, a lot of competition in that markets

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Speaker 4: and there's a lot of moving parts. How do you

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Speaker 4: assess where rugby is that in New Zealand? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Look, and I want to preface it with this what

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Speaker 2: I wore comments on my thoughts, and it's not about

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Speaker 2: paying out on rugby because I think rugby is the

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Speaker 2: heartbeat of our country, has been and we all want

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Speaker 2: it to remain that and grow again to that. So

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Speaker 2: whilst some of the comments may appear to be critical,

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Speaker 2: I think it's time that the game. And there's a

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Speaker 2: global element to this because he's the rules of the game.

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Speaker 2: But I just think domestically too, we need to start

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Speaker 2: being brave and courageous and doing things we haven't done before.

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Speaker 2: You know, I remember saying out of the Nike camp

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Speaker 2: many many years ago, when I was in sports retail.

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Speaker 2: In order to remain number one, you have to think

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Speaker 2: and act like you're number two. I think Rugby and

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Speaker 2: New Zealand for too long has thought and acted like

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Speaker 2: it's number one globally, and quite frankly, it isn't at

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Speaker 2: the moment. And so we need to take a good

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Speaker 2: look and go what do we need to do? So

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Speaker 2: look the state of the game. Geehere do you stay.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with the game. I think the game and

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Speaker 2: this is a global one. This is not New Zealand

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Speaker 2: ultimately having control of the rules. However, they can tweak

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Speaker 2: them for our game down here, you know, top of head,

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Speaker 2: we need to make sure our fan is enjoying it.

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Speaker 2: We're all probably rugby people sitting around the table. We've

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Speaker 2: all got friends who have turned off the game. We've

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Speaker 2: got friends that are watching the other code. We've got

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Speaker 2: friends that just don't go anymore because it's boring. We've

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Speaker 2: got to change that, guys. We've got to look at

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Speaker 2: what the fan wants. And you know, some minor tweaks

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Speaker 2: to the rules I think would help. And you know, again,

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Speaker 2: there'll be guys sitting around pubs and ladies who've got

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Speaker 2: some really cool ideas let's hear what they've got to say.

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Speaker 2: One that I've always thought about is the Evanna dryl

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Speaker 2: drives me crazy. You know, ten plays later you go

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Speaker 2: back and you're back to where it is. Why can

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Speaker 2: we not create a shot clock for twenty seconds and

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Speaker 2: as soon as there's an advantage it pops up on

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Speaker 2: the screen, the kids start shouting it down and the

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Speaker 2: players have an opportunity. If you've got the ball and

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Speaker 2: you've got the advantage, you got twenty seconds to maximize it.

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Speaker 2: We'll kick the ball out, you'll get your penalty. Otherwise

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Speaker 2: you play on and away you go. Just innovations like that,

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Speaker 2: And I think with the other code, you're seeing annually

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Speaker 2: changing rules to either speed up the game or to

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Speaker 2: give the fan the experience that they want to. And

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Speaker 2: I think we've got to sit around a table and go,

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Speaker 2: how do we do this? How do we make it

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Speaker 2: more exciting for our fan base? That game last weekend

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Speaker 2: Chiefs fee Crusaders top draw stuff. Ye, okay, what happened

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Speaker 2: in that game that we can get more of and

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Speaker 2: start making rules that help us. That's the game itself,

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Speaker 2: but because it's a workshop for a weekend with great minds,

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Speaker 2: and great coaches. You know some of our past coaches,

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Speaker 2: your Graham, Henry's, even your Rennies, your Hansen's. All these

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Speaker 2: guys sit in the room and tell us what you

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Speaker 2: would do. I remember having conversations with them about similar things.

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Speaker 2: They've got the ideas we need to start lobbying because

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Speaker 2: it's desperate times to make sure that in this country

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Speaker 2: we remain relevant in the next two decades.

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Speaker 3: It feels like from the northern Hemissy, the rules are

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Speaker 3: passed down from above and it's just not suiting the

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Speaker 3: game that New Zealanders want to see and New Zealand

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Speaker 3: fans want to go and watch.

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Speaker 2: At the moment, Yes, and I think there's a part there, Elliott,

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Speaker 2: that we need to understand where we are in the

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Speaker 2: ecosystem of the game, because quite frankly, the French think

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Speaker 2: super rugby is crap. Okay, they don't rate it, they're

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Speaker 2: not interested in it, They're just interested in taking our players. Okay.

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Speaker 2: So we've got to understand that, and we've got to say, okay,

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Speaker 2: how do we gain relevance and how do we lobby

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Speaker 2: to ensure that the game globally is strong. Make the mistake,

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Speaker 2: it's strong in France. Okay, it's a very strong competition.

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Speaker 2: The UK is It went through a tough spelled post COVID,

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Speaker 2: but it's starting to revive itself again, private investment with

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Speaker 2: red Ball through Newcastle, et cetera. So yeah, we've got

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we understand our place. And this

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Speaker 2: is a thing. Don't sit on your pedestal thinking a

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Speaker 2: number one and you're controlling the world. You're not. You

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Speaker 2: once were such a dominant force that the all Black

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Speaker 2: brand and the All Blacks could command and demand whatever

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Speaker 2: they wanted. That's past. We need to start playing the game.

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Speaker 4: What about things outside of rules leavers, that's the game here,

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Speaker 4: could pull to drive fan interest, to put the fan first.

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Speaker 4: Things like a draft model have been touted and largely

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Speaker 4: dismissed to this point. Maybe trades within season, we see

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Speaker 4: that in rugby league. What's your view on whether some

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Speaker 4: of these things are viable, whether they could work, and

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Speaker 4: how they could work, particularly within a super rugby context.

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Speaker 2: Look the draft one. I smile because it'll be fifteen

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Speaker 2: years ago. I remember talking to the administrators about a

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Speaker 2: draft system, and simply because we need to give the

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Speaker 2: fan and engageagement through MPC the other thing that I'll

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Speaker 2: come to that in the second. But the other thing

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Speaker 2: that I observe is probably now nine five to ninety

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Speaker 2: nine percent of all super teams have got their squads

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Speaker 2: sorted for twenty twenty seven. If I was an MPC

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Speaker 2: player and I'm playing for a professional career MPC for me, now, yes,

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Speaker 2: they've introduced wider training group again. Now, but what am

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Speaker 2: I playing for? To me? You say, there will be

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Speaker 2: five spots minimum available to be announced at the end

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Speaker 2: of NPC via a draft system, and coming into the

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Speaker 2: NPC season, each franchise identifies what they're looking for for

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Speaker 2: a tight forward, I'm looking for a lock proper, whatever

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Speaker 2: it is. They're all known. The fan base then is

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Speaker 2: watching MPC and every week the media, the marketing machine

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Speaker 2: of NZDR is talking about who's hot, who's not, who's coming.

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Speaker 2: The talk shows again be about did you see the

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Speaker 2: performance from that young kid midfielder. Surely he'll slot into

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Speaker 2: the chiefs now and so on and so on, and

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Speaker 2: you've got this thing. Then ultimately you have a draft

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Speaker 2: day and you talk about and they're all there and right, yes,

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Speaker 2: you're going here and you're going fantastic. Just try and

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Speaker 2: create something for the fan And for the life of me,

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Speaker 2: I can't see why we can't. I can't see why

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Speaker 2: you can't do that. So ideas like that, you talked

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Speaker 2: about mid season trades. I won't say daily, that's an exaggeration. Weekly,

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Speaker 2: bi weekly. You're talking to regular league clubs who are

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Speaker 2: looking to move players, trade players, they've had injuries and

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Speaker 2: need someone and would they release them? Can we do

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Speaker 2: this deal? You get it through the Warriors media all

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Speaker 2: the time. You've got one team in this country, but

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Speaker 2: you're getting good news out of them about movements and

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Speaker 2: it creates great conversation for the fan base. And we

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Speaker 2: know what the Warriors fan base is doing. So we

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Speaker 2: have to start being more agile. We can't keep doing

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Speaker 2: what we've always done if we want to get a

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Speaker 2: different outcome. And I know that's a cliche, but my lord,

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Speaker 2: we have to start. We have to start. I'm sorry.

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Speaker 3: One of the things that's pushed back, I guess around

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Speaker 3: trades is that players wouldn't want to move mid season.

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Speaker 3: You're in the NBA. It's very much a for example,

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Speaker 3: that the franchise has run it. And basically, if you're

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Speaker 3: told to move to Minnesota, you're doing it that day

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Speaker 3: and super rugbits sort of perhaps the other way around,

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Speaker 3: where maybe the players have more of a say. How

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Speaker 3: would players react to being told that extra the Blues

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Speaker 3: don't want you, the Honders have picked you up though,

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Speaker 3: or the Western Force and you're going over there as

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Speaker 3: of tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: Now. There'll be situations, Elliott, where it isn't feasible because

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Speaker 2: you've got kids in school and you've got support networks

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Speaker 2: and it it's just not feasible. However, I was just

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Speaker 2: sitting with Liam having a coffee before had a call

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Speaker 2: from a regular league club wanting a player who's based

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Speaker 2: in Australia potentially to come across the ditch. Yep, he'll

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Speaker 2: move right because he wants to play. Yeah, and ninety

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Speaker 2: percent of them are there to do that, right, and

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Speaker 2: that is the Natrue job. If you had a call

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Speaker 2: from a either a sister station or someone else, so

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Speaker 2: you've got a bloody good opportunity, would you move, You

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Speaker 2: go home and have a conversation. If that's the case,

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Speaker 2: we're moving, So yeah. Look, is it always ideal? No,

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Speaker 2: But it's part and parcel of what being a pro

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Speaker 2: athlete is about. So I think you know again, it's

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Speaker 2: certainly worth trying, without doubt.

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Speaker 4: If we look at one of your areas of expertise,

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Speaker 4: the contracting model I guess of New Zealand rugby, and

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Speaker 4: there's a lot that goes into this centralized contracts. New

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Speaker 4: Zealand Rugby pays the players. We had Malcolm Gillies, the

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Speaker 4: Hurricanes owner on the podcast and he was very emphatic

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Speaker 4: about the need to change, about the need to privatize

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Speaker 4: super rugby clubs in order for them to be able

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Speaker 4: to pay their players have more control. Where do you

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Speaker 4: see that space. I guess central contracting has probably worked

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Speaker 4: from New Zealand rugby to this point, but there is

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Speaker 4: a there is a push for change. And then outside

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Speaker 4: of that contracting metrics around skys like for young Enough

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Speaker 4: for in his situation, Richie Muwong are coming back and

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Speaker 4: not being available for the All Blacks. So there's a

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Speaker 4: lot in that mix. But it's largely been the way

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Speaker 4: it's always been for a long time. If it was

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Speaker 4: to change or do you think it should change, and

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Speaker 4: how you.

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Speaker 2: Look, I'm anevocate of privatization. I'm an advocate of providing

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Speaker 2: true privatization, not partial like it is at the moment,

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Speaker 2: you've got investors that are holding forty nine percent in

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Speaker 2: some cases fifty to fifty one. If you want to

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Speaker 2: if you want to engage with an investor, you need

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Speaker 2: to give them the properties to try and make a

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Speaker 2: profit and also then have sole control over their recruitment,

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Speaker 2: their pathways, their depth charts and all the rest of it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's where you'll start to see I guess,

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Speaker 2: some real meaningful recruitment development and all sorts of things

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Speaker 2: going on. So look, I think the time is now

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Speaker 2: to have this conversation about privatization and true privatization. What

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Speaker 2: New Zealand Rugby has to then step back and go,

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Speaker 2: so what do we govern? What are we about? And

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Speaker 2: you know we talked about the rules. I think their

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Speaker 2: job is to make sure our product is alive and well.

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Speaker 2: Spend a lot of time lobbying up North, ensuring look

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Speaker 2: ensuring that it's all cohesive, that every franchise is ultimately

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Speaker 2: the All Blacks is our pinnacle side. They run that

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Speaker 2: they control that and everything should be heading towards a

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Speaker 2: dominant international side. So look, the conversation and Malcolm's a

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Speaker 2: good example, let's have it. Let's talk about how it

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Speaker 2: can work. But it will take New Zealand letting go

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Speaker 2: of some of the rains and particularly some of the properties,

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Speaker 2: because if you talk to a franchise at the moment,

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Speaker 2: they just can't make money. They can't make money unless

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Speaker 2: they win a final, and that needs to change. You know,

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Speaker 2: if you look at the regular league clubs as an example,

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Speaker 2: the NRL governs the game. The clubs run the day

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Speaker 2: to day business of their own fan bases, their fan

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Speaker 2: engagements and everything else, and whilst that our franchise is

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Speaker 2: doing so, they are hamstrung because of what they can

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Speaker 2: and can't sell, what share a broadcast revenue they get,

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Speaker 2: and all the rest of it. So yeah, I'm an

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Speaker 2: advocate of it. I think it's one of those bold

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Speaker 2: conversations that we have to have and we have to

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Speaker 2: genuinely sit down and say, you know, is there a

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Speaker 2: market for it? Who would invest? What we are seeing

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Speaker 2: globally is wealthy individuals or equity houses are looking at

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Speaker 2: buying sporting franchises. Is there a market here?

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Speaker 3: Do you think that you get the sense there is

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Speaker 3: a market?

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Speaker 2: There is, absolutely absolutely I do. However, the commercials have

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Speaker 2: to stack and that's where they've got to sit around

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Speaker 2: a table with New Zealand and go what are you

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Speaker 2: prepared to give up?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 2: So, yeah, that conversation has to be had without doubt.

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Speaker 4: What about those There might be things you can and

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Speaker 4: can't say around them, but what's your view on those

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Speaker 4: individual situations for hang and or for potentially having a

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Speaker 4: change of heart wanting to assess the situation with his

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Speaker 4: Newcastle contracts? New rag be saying it's not our place

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Speaker 4: to intervene in the modern sporting world. What's your assessment

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Speaker 4: of that situation.

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Speaker 2: It's a professional sport. It has been for thirty years

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Speaker 2: in this country. It's time to step up and start

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Speaker 2: treating it as a commercial transaction. Cards on table for

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Speaker 2: he has managed inside the business, not by me but

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Speaker 2: by a colleague and he's doing a great job of

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Speaker 2: this process. But New Zealand had the opportunity to contract

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Speaker 2: the player. What they put on the table was nowhere

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Speaker 2: near the match of what it was. His performance is

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00:17:59,933 --> 00:18:02,573
Speaker 2: then ramped up and they've said we want to we

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Speaker 2: now want to hold him. That's fine, go and have

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Speaker 2: a commercial conversation with the people who actually wrap the

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00:18:06,813 --> 00:18:09,413
Speaker 2: contract around him, so you can do a deal. The

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00:18:09,453 --> 00:18:11,533
Speaker 2: cut and thrust of that is happening daily in rugby

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Speaker 2: league and other sports globally. So go and have the

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Speaker 2: chat even do it?

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Speaker 3: Do you think that'll be easier in a privatized world

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Speaker 3: because other than a governing body doing it, it's the

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Speaker 3: privatized Hurricanes versus Newcastle Red Bulls or for example.

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Speaker 2: And that's one of the examples. You know, and you

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Speaker 2: hear it out of your local media. Here Kem George

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00:18:29,853 --> 00:18:32,733
Speaker 2: is having conversations with Brisbane around Mitch Barnett's release and

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Speaker 2: there was a given a take and this is an

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Speaker 2: undertaking and they're deals. They're doing deals, and that's what

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Speaker 2: we need to get to in this world. At the

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Speaker 2: end of the day. The model in New Zealand rugby

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Speaker 2: has changed, where everybody that wanted to play or throw

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Speaker 2: an oval ball wanted to play. The code of rugby

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Speaker 2: union has changed. We have to get a lot more

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Speaker 2: specific about who we want. And the other one that

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Speaker 2: I'm strong on too is trade. To sweat your assets.

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Speaker 2: In any business, if you want to make a dollar,

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Speaker 2: you got to sweat your assets. One of your assets

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00:19:04,973 --> 00:19:08,213
Speaker 2: are the players. There are players that you are not playing,

360
00:19:08,533 --> 00:19:11,973
Speaker 2: paying too much on a global basis, allow them to go,

361
00:19:12,573 --> 00:19:16,573
Speaker 2: get a transfer feedback in, let them go trade work.

362
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Speaker 2: That's what the rest of the world's doing. And you know,

363
00:19:20,293 --> 00:19:23,013
Speaker 2: I can hear the people in HQ going you You

364
00:19:23,053 --> 00:19:27,013
Speaker 2: would say that, Bruce, because you're always asking us for releases. Yes,

365
00:19:27,053 --> 00:19:29,413
Speaker 2: because the player wants to go, but equally because their

366
00:19:29,453 --> 00:19:33,573
Speaker 2: future is somewhere else. Sweet your asset, get a transfer fee,

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Speaker 2: repurpose that into pathways, competitions or development of young players

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Speaker 2: or fan whatever. Start working it. That's what I think.

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Speaker 3: Do you think we're still tied to the contracts a

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Speaker 3: contracts sort of mindset in New Zealand? You know, whether

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Speaker 3: it's a not even just ruggy players, but a mortgage

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Speaker 3: or a car, you know, whatever, it might be, a

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00:19:51,173 --> 00:19:53,293
Speaker 3: contracts a contract. We haven't quite moved on from that

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Speaker 3: mindset as a country.

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Speaker 2: And you know, and some of that's nice to have

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00:19:59,333 --> 00:20:03,293
Speaker 2: and honorable. You know, we live by the basis everything's negotiable,

377
00:20:04,933 --> 00:20:06,813
Speaker 2: and yes, a contract is a contract, and I'm the

378
00:20:06,893 --> 00:20:10,573
Speaker 2: first to honor it and acknowledge it. However, I'm also

379
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Speaker 2: the first to go to the table and negotiate it

380
00:20:13,333 --> 00:20:15,453
Speaker 2: and say, hey, look, it's not working. How do we

381
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Speaker 2: get around this and those conversations, the need to be

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Speaker 2: more of them and people. Yeah, as I say, do

383
00:20:23,853 --> 00:20:28,733
Speaker 2: a deal, make it work for everybody. So yeah, without

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Speaker 2: getting specifics, there are many examples where commercially you'd stand back,

385
00:20:34,133 --> 00:20:36,413
Speaker 2: be given the facts and you wouldn't be involved in coe.

386
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Speaker 2: So why wouldn't you do that? You know? And yeah,

387
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Speaker 2: I just think it's a maturity thing. We need to

388
00:20:43,173 --> 00:20:45,093
Speaker 2: we need to stop thinking the way we used to

389
00:20:45,093 --> 00:20:47,973
Speaker 2: think and go, Okay, we're in a new world and

390
00:20:47,973 --> 00:20:51,893
Speaker 2: we need to really start to reimagine what we're doing here.

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Speaker 4: What about the Richie Muwanga case? Is coming back for?

392
00:20:57,173 --> 00:20:57,733
Speaker 2: Was it a year?

393
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Speaker 4: Eighteen months? Contractors used on rugby the Crusaders Canterbury but

394
00:21:02,733 --> 00:21:05,213
Speaker 4: it's going to have to play provincial rugby and unless

395
00:21:05,213 --> 00:21:07,693
Speaker 4: there's an injury, won't go to South Africa?

396
00:21:08,093 --> 00:21:11,653
Speaker 2: What you on that? Look, it's been well documented by

397
00:21:11,693 --> 00:21:15,093
Speaker 2: people with a greater qualification than mine in the game.

398
00:21:15,133 --> 00:21:18,053
Speaker 2: I Karen read or saw him talking about it. It's

399
00:21:18,053 --> 00:21:20,813
Speaker 2: a no brainer. For God's sake, let's mature ourselves and go.

400
00:21:21,413 --> 00:21:25,333
Speaker 2: He's been brought back for a reason. We shortened that position.

401
00:21:25,373 --> 00:21:29,693
Speaker 2: He's will class and he should go straight in the rules,

402
00:21:30,053 --> 00:21:32,613
Speaker 2: change them. You have the ability to change them. It's

403
00:21:32,613 --> 00:21:34,653
Speaker 2: your game. You do what you want. It doesn't mean

404
00:21:34,653 --> 00:21:36,333
Speaker 2: you have to do it or set a precedent. That's

405
00:21:36,333 --> 00:21:39,133
Speaker 2: the rule for him. The next one may not get that.

406
00:21:40,093 --> 00:21:42,253
Speaker 2: We're about winning and winning at the top end to

407
00:21:42,333 --> 00:21:44,933
Speaker 2: make sure that the All Blacks remain number one in

408
00:21:44,973 --> 00:21:48,333
Speaker 2: the world or sorry, regain number one in the world.

409
00:21:49,173 --> 00:21:52,693
Speaker 2: So do it? Why not? I don't see the downside

410
00:21:52,693 --> 00:21:55,533
Speaker 2: of doing it. So, yeah, look that one not to

411
00:21:55,573 --> 00:21:57,933
Speaker 2: shake my head and just go that's so disappointing that

412
00:21:57,933 --> 00:22:00,333
Speaker 2: you even think that way. It's an opportunity to go, hey,

413
00:22:00,373 --> 00:22:02,333
Speaker 2: we've thought about this, this is what we should be doing.

414
00:22:02,973 --> 00:22:05,533
Speaker 2: And dare I say, your fan base, we'll go, we

415
00:22:05,613 --> 00:22:06,613
Speaker 2: understand why you do that.

416
00:22:06,813 --> 00:22:11,213
Speaker 3: Yeah, does all that jersey still hold the lure that

417
00:22:11,253 --> 00:22:12,413
Speaker 3: it once did fuel clients?

418
00:22:12,533 --> 00:22:16,413
Speaker 2: No? No, And I think that's another realization that needs

419
00:22:16,453 --> 00:22:20,293
Speaker 2: to be understood, is that you know, I won't mention names,

420
00:22:20,293 --> 00:22:22,173
Speaker 2: but I could speak to twenty four year old all

421
00:22:22,173 --> 00:22:23,853
Speaker 2: Blocks at the moment that are talking about how do

422
00:22:23,893 --> 00:22:27,373
Speaker 2: we what happens after the World Cup? I mean that

423
00:22:27,453 --> 00:22:29,253
Speaker 2: was never the case. Once you got that jersey, you

424
00:22:29,293 --> 00:22:31,493
Speaker 2: would stay the year. You'd have to get the chisel

425
00:22:31,533 --> 00:22:33,733
Speaker 2: to get it off your back. You'd never give it up.

426
00:22:34,413 --> 00:22:36,493
Speaker 2: And that's part of the generation as well. It's not

427
00:22:36,533 --> 00:22:38,613
Speaker 2: as slight on the jersey or slighting. That's part of

428
00:22:38,613 --> 00:22:42,933
Speaker 2: the generation that we're dealing with, and so and the

429
00:22:42,973 --> 00:22:45,133
Speaker 2: other part of that is you're seeing players choose the

430
00:22:45,173 --> 00:22:50,213
Speaker 2: other code by choice because it's shinier and it looks

431
00:22:50,213 --> 00:22:53,333
Speaker 2: great on television and the opportunities appear to be there

432
00:22:53,373 --> 00:22:56,413
Speaker 2: and so on and so forth. So no, it doesn't,

433
00:22:57,453 --> 00:22:59,893
Speaker 2: and we need to try and get it as strong

434
00:22:59,933 --> 00:23:03,293
Speaker 2: as it once was. But yeah, the world has changed,

435
00:23:03,813 --> 00:23:04,133
Speaker 2: is that?

436
00:23:04,293 --> 00:23:06,973
Speaker 3: Yeah? I was gonna say with the generation and perhaps

437
00:23:07,533 --> 00:23:11,293
Speaker 3: a cash first, were sitting yourself up mindset rather than

438
00:23:11,733 --> 00:23:14,253
Speaker 3: a legacy sort of with a black jersey and playing

439
00:23:14,253 --> 00:23:16,653
Speaker 3: one hundred Testory country. Is that's what you're ever going

440
00:23:16,693 --> 00:23:18,733
Speaker 3: to change back? Or is this is the way it's

441
00:23:18,773 --> 00:23:20,693
Speaker 3: going to be for the for the foreseeable future.

442
00:23:22,413 --> 00:23:26,213
Speaker 2: I think it's the way it is for the foreseeable future.

443
00:23:27,533 --> 00:23:29,533
Speaker 2: You know, it is the generational thing. You'll have it

444
00:23:29,573 --> 00:23:32,533
Speaker 2: inside your own operation. Here, You've got twenty three year

445
00:23:32,573 --> 00:23:34,093
Speaker 2: old interns that all of a sudden want to be

446
00:23:34,133 --> 00:23:36,333
Speaker 2: the GM, they want to be the CEE, or they

447
00:23:36,333 --> 00:23:38,693
Speaker 2: want your job, they want Liamb's job, to be head

448
00:23:38,733 --> 00:23:39,093
Speaker 2: a sport.

449
00:23:39,133 --> 00:23:40,893
Speaker 4: It's the age of instant gratification.

450
00:23:41,013 --> 00:23:42,973
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it is what it is, guys. We're not

451
00:23:43,053 --> 00:23:44,173
Speaker 2: going to change it. And I don't want to sound

452
00:23:44,213 --> 00:23:47,053
Speaker 2: like an old fart, but the reality is that's what

453
00:23:47,093 --> 00:23:49,373
Speaker 2: we're living in and our footballers are no different. They

454
00:23:49,373 --> 00:23:51,773
Speaker 2: want it now. You've got eighteen year olds playing rugby

455
00:23:51,853 --> 00:23:53,293
Speaker 2: league that I think they should be playing a n

456
00:23:53,413 --> 00:23:55,813
Speaker 2: RL but to kill them, but they think they're ready

457
00:23:55,853 --> 00:23:59,453
Speaker 2: for it, so that, you know, that's just the world.

458
00:24:00,853 --> 00:24:02,493
Speaker 2: So yeah, we've got to we've got to start working

459
00:24:02,533 --> 00:24:05,253
Speaker 2: with it and start thinking a little bit differently about

460
00:24:05,293 --> 00:24:07,133
Speaker 2: it too. And I think that you know, that sort

461
00:24:07,133 --> 00:24:09,933
Speaker 2: of leads on to things like path way. These young

462
00:24:09,973 --> 00:24:11,733
Speaker 2: people want to know what they're doing when they leave

463
00:24:11,773 --> 00:24:14,053
Speaker 2: school and one of the issues with rugby union at

464
00:24:14,093 --> 00:24:17,973
Speaker 2: the moment is a very muddied pathway for a young

465
00:24:18,013 --> 00:24:20,813
Speaker 2: player coming out of school. What do I do next?

466
00:24:21,573 --> 00:24:23,173
Speaker 2: You go into an academy? What if I don't maybe

467
00:24:23,133 --> 00:24:26,493
Speaker 2: the academy, what happens with me? And you know, we

468
00:24:26,653 --> 00:24:29,613
Speaker 2: need to give it real clarity, whereas the other code

469
00:24:30,773 --> 00:24:33,533
Speaker 2: have a very clear pathway, you know, with the if

470
00:24:33,573 --> 00:24:35,693
Speaker 2: you're talking New South Wales for a second, your Herald

471
00:24:35,733 --> 00:24:38,253
Speaker 2: Matt's into your EASTU ball, into your Jersey flag, into

472
00:24:38,293 --> 00:24:41,093
Speaker 2: reserve grade, into your top grade, and you can start

473
00:24:41,093 --> 00:24:43,333
Speaker 2: at seventeen all the way through to twenty one and

474
00:24:43,373 --> 00:24:45,013
Speaker 2: if you're any good, you'll leap frog it. You lack

475
00:24:45,053 --> 00:24:46,733
Speaker 2: at hlo siemers of the world of nineteen all of

476
00:24:46,773 --> 00:24:49,693
Speaker 2: a sudden their household name. Yeah, so they've gone from

477
00:24:49,733 --> 00:24:54,373
Speaker 2: fleag bomfa, you know. So it's nice and clear. We

478
00:24:54,413 --> 00:24:56,933
Speaker 2: need to do that for our kids in rugby union too.

479
00:24:58,013 --> 00:25:00,653
Speaker 4: You talk about those eighteen year olds, I guess even

480
00:25:00,693 --> 00:25:04,853
Speaker 4: younger than that, what's the bad all light for hearts

481
00:25:04,853 --> 00:25:07,693
Speaker 4: and minds at that age? Are kids in high school

482
00:25:07,813 --> 00:25:14,493
Speaker 4: deciding wat's his pathway? And the contracting model or the

483
00:25:14,613 --> 00:25:17,133
Speaker 4: approach is quite different as well. Isn't rugby league tend

484
00:25:17,213 --> 00:25:19,893
Speaker 4: to go younger, which potentially raises a bit of a

485
00:25:19,933 --> 00:25:24,093
Speaker 4: moral question where rugby is quite hands off and will

486
00:25:24,133 --> 00:25:28,293
Speaker 4: go later in their schooling years and potentially miss that talents.

487
00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:32,813
Speaker 4: So there's a bit of a juxta position there.

488
00:25:33,053 --> 00:25:37,213
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is and yeah, look, I guess at the

489
00:25:37,253 --> 00:25:40,813
Speaker 2: heart of it, rugby league is more aggressive in terms

490
00:25:40,853 --> 00:25:44,053
Speaker 2: of its recruitment. Why because they've got, as I said

491
00:25:44,093 --> 00:25:47,013
Speaker 2: to you, Harold matts eschueball in fleague teams, So they're

492
00:25:47,053 --> 00:25:49,293
Speaker 2: recruiting for those teams as much as recruiting for their

493
00:25:49,333 --> 00:25:51,973
Speaker 2: in round teams. So they're looking for talent. So if

494
00:25:51,973 --> 00:25:55,133
Speaker 2: you're a sixteen year old and you can play Harold

495
00:25:55,173 --> 00:25:57,933
Speaker 2: Mattz the next year, which is under seventeen's, they're looking

496
00:25:57,973 --> 00:25:59,893
Speaker 2: to fill that roster. So they've got an opportunity for

497
00:25:59,893 --> 00:26:02,493
Speaker 2: you straight away. What that means for rugby though, that

498
00:26:02,493 --> 00:26:05,333
Speaker 2: doesn't mean they're going to play rugby League forever. Treat

499
00:26:05,333 --> 00:26:08,013
Speaker 2: it as a high performance experience and they can experiment

500
00:26:08,013 --> 00:26:12,973
Speaker 2: with an game. But yeah, look, we need to we

501
00:26:13,053 --> 00:26:17,053
Speaker 2: need to understand that. I guess for the first time

502
00:26:17,053 --> 00:26:19,133
Speaker 2: for me, probably in fifteen years on back down in

503
00:26:19,173 --> 00:26:21,373
Speaker 2: that cold face talking to school kids again, because when

504
00:26:21,413 --> 00:26:23,653
Speaker 2: I was I took the little sabbatical in the racing

505
00:26:23,653 --> 00:26:27,133
Speaker 2: world for three years. But I've gone back down south

506
00:26:27,173 --> 00:26:28,973
Speaker 2: and you know, I'm going to school games and I'm

507
00:26:28,973 --> 00:26:32,293
Speaker 2: talking to school kids again. Look, I'm not guiding them

508
00:26:32,333 --> 00:26:34,613
Speaker 2: to rugby league. I'm letting them know what they want

509
00:26:34,613 --> 00:26:37,373
Speaker 2: to do. I've got the I guess fortunate position where

510
00:26:37,413 --> 00:26:39,213
Speaker 2: I can understand both pathways and I look at them

511
00:26:39,213 --> 00:26:42,573
Speaker 2: and say, which one would you like to choose? A

512
00:26:42,653 --> 00:26:46,213
Speaker 2: lot of them are choosing now rugby league more than ever.

513
00:26:46,813 --> 00:26:49,133
Speaker 2: You know, it was a rarity back in the day

514
00:26:49,933 --> 00:26:52,653
Speaker 2: that rugby league would even figure in the thinking. I

515
00:26:52,733 --> 00:26:55,253
Speaker 2: go back to someone like a Liam Squire. I looked

516
00:26:55,253 --> 00:26:58,093
Speaker 2: after Liam and I remember canber Raiders were super keen

517
00:26:58,133 --> 00:27:01,093
Speaker 2: on him. He toured with it for two minutes. Really,

518
00:27:01,733 --> 00:27:04,133
Speaker 2: he would have been a great league by the way. Yeah,

519
00:27:04,573 --> 00:27:07,373
Speaker 2: you know, La always said to me because I looked

520
00:27:07,373 --> 00:27:10,093
Speaker 2: after both he and Humy and Hammy was playing league

521
00:27:10,093 --> 00:27:12,453
Speaker 2: in Sandia kIPS and about playing league. But it was

522
00:27:12,533 --> 00:27:14,333
Speaker 2: really I told him had to lose about fifteen kilo

523
00:27:14,373 --> 00:27:18,453
Speaker 2: to play league, by the way. But what I'm saying

524
00:27:18,493 --> 00:27:22,453
Speaker 2: is they were rarities. Now you know last year Harry

525
00:27:22,493 --> 00:27:24,453
Speaker 2: and She out of Tasman, a top being player. He

526
00:27:24,813 --> 00:27:27,373
Speaker 2: you know, I'm the Antichrist down there because I pulled

527
00:27:27,413 --> 00:27:29,493
Speaker 2: him out of rugby. He wanted to go to the

528
00:27:29,573 --> 00:27:32,013
Speaker 2: league and regretted the fact that he actually went through

529
00:27:32,013 --> 00:27:36,533
Speaker 2: the rugby pathway Salmucky Salmucky built for rugby league, wanted

530
00:27:36,533 --> 00:27:39,693
Speaker 2: to play rugby league. Tom Perkins out of Nelson College

531
00:27:39,773 --> 00:27:44,133
Speaker 2: number eight, six foot five, that he wanted to play

532
00:27:44,213 --> 00:27:46,013
Speaker 2: rugby league. I didn't tell him to go and play

533
00:27:46,093 --> 00:27:49,013
Speaker 2: rugby league. He got the interest and explored it and

534
00:27:49,053 --> 00:27:51,293
Speaker 2: went that's what I want to do. So that are

535
00:27:51,373 --> 00:27:53,973
Speaker 2: just recent examples of that, and there's more and more

536
00:27:53,973 --> 00:27:57,933
Speaker 2: of them every day because it's exciting. They're playing in

537
00:27:57,973 --> 00:28:02,333
Speaker 2: a meaningful league for a period of the year. And

538
00:28:02,373 --> 00:28:04,293
Speaker 2: by the way, Harold Matts is finished by sort of

539
00:28:04,333 --> 00:28:08,333
Speaker 2: inter feb sorry May early May, so I think still

540
00:28:08,413 --> 00:28:10,613
Speaker 2: participate in first of them programs all the rest of it,

541
00:28:10,813 --> 00:28:13,053
Speaker 2: and the progressive schools are allowing all that to happen.

542
00:28:14,013 --> 00:28:18,013
Speaker 2: So it's embracing it, but then getting really sharp when

543
00:28:18,053 --> 00:28:21,773
Speaker 2: you recruitment, identification and gone. Rather than everybody who wants

544
00:28:21,813 --> 00:28:23,293
Speaker 2: to swim will come in the pond if they make

545
00:28:23,373 --> 00:28:26,533
Speaker 2: the other side will take them. Identify what you need

546
00:28:26,573 --> 00:28:29,973
Speaker 2: in your depth charts and go get it. Yeah, that's

547
00:28:29,973 --> 00:28:30,493
Speaker 2: what I think.

548
00:28:32,013 --> 00:28:33,693
Speaker 3: We Hadstid Lancas from the program a few weeks ago

549
00:28:33,733 --> 00:28:35,373
Speaker 3: and he was talking about that that pathways and he

550
00:28:35,413 --> 00:28:38,053
Speaker 3: admitted it was an issue because you've got Auckland, you've

551
00:28:38,093 --> 00:28:41,653
Speaker 3: got the Blues, you've got North Harbor, just an Auckland alone,

552
00:28:42,293 --> 00:28:44,533
Speaker 3: maybe counties as a lock. Northa might come down and

553
00:28:44,893 --> 00:28:47,493
Speaker 3: you've got four different teams and for a player trying

554
00:28:47,533 --> 00:28:49,413
Speaker 3: to get to the top, they can't see that pathway.

555
00:28:49,413 --> 00:28:52,213
Speaker 3: Whereas for Melbourne Storm scouts standing on the sidelines at

556
00:28:52,213 --> 00:28:55,653
Speaker 3: your high school first often game and talking to you,

557
00:28:55,653 --> 00:28:58,693
Speaker 3: you can see the pathway through playing for the Melbourne Storm.

558
00:28:59,693 --> 00:29:02,333
Speaker 3: And so is it fundamentally broken and us on the

559
00:29:02,373 --> 00:29:03,573
Speaker 3: way we get to talent to the top.

560
00:29:04,093 --> 00:29:10,293
Speaker 2: Yeah, is it broken? It's fragmented. And you know, again

561
00:29:10,333 --> 00:29:13,173
Speaker 2: this is just top of head thinking. But if we

562
00:29:13,213 --> 00:29:15,453
Speaker 2: could come up with it, and this comes down to funding,

563
00:29:15,813 --> 00:29:17,653
Speaker 2: but if we could come up with a competition, for

564
00:29:17,733 --> 00:29:21,093
Speaker 2: example post the first fifteen year, so for your current

565
00:29:21,253 --> 00:29:26,613
Speaker 2: in school guys, and I'll use the use of franchise teams.

566
00:29:26,693 --> 00:29:29,693
Speaker 2: So let's call it a seventeens or a nineteens franchise

567
00:29:29,733 --> 00:29:34,333
Speaker 2: team and they play. They culminate then aligned with MPC

568
00:29:36,133 --> 00:29:41,333
Speaker 2: a seventeens and nineteens franchise tournament with a semi and

569
00:29:41,373 --> 00:29:43,133
Speaker 2: a final aligned to the semi in the final of

570
00:29:43,173 --> 00:29:46,693
Speaker 2: the NPC. It gives them a really meaningful experience in

571
00:29:46,733 --> 00:29:49,733
Speaker 2: school and then out of school. Beyond that they then

572
00:29:49,773 --> 00:29:53,333
Speaker 2: progress into or MPC wide a training group, into super rugby.

573
00:29:53,453 --> 00:29:55,493
Speaker 2: But at least they can start to see a clear pathway.

574
00:29:56,693 --> 00:29:59,653
Speaker 2: But we've got all of these provincial unions all trying

575
00:29:59,693 --> 00:30:04,853
Speaker 2: to produce academy players for why what for let's get

576
00:30:04,853 --> 00:30:08,493
Speaker 2: the best, Let's do it right, bring them in and

577
00:30:08,573 --> 00:30:10,373
Speaker 2: you're still going to get What We've got to be

578
00:30:10,373 --> 00:30:12,093
Speaker 2: careful is you don't want to kill the club scene

579
00:30:12,133 --> 00:30:13,853
Speaker 2: and all the rest of it. And again these are

580
00:30:13,853 --> 00:30:16,533
Speaker 2: top of head and thoughts. But sitting around, I'm sure

581
00:30:16,533 --> 00:30:19,253
Speaker 2: we can come up with something, you know, start to

582
00:30:19,293 --> 00:30:22,813
Speaker 2: repurpose the money we have and I'm going to use sevens.

583
00:30:23,173 --> 00:30:26,893
Speaker 2: Is seven still relevant? Is it producing anything for us

584
00:30:26,933 --> 00:30:29,293
Speaker 2: to be the best team in the world or is

585
00:30:29,333 --> 00:30:32,373
Speaker 2: it now a separate athlete game that's run under a

586
00:30:32,453 --> 00:30:36,013
Speaker 2: different banner. But what's it costing us? It would we

587
00:30:36,053 --> 00:30:38,453
Speaker 2: be better off repurposing into a competition like I just

588
00:30:38,493 --> 00:30:41,933
Speaker 2: described or something similar. So it's sitting there and going right,

589
00:30:41,973 --> 00:30:44,133
Speaker 2: We've only got this much money, so I get that

590
00:30:44,173 --> 00:30:47,493
Speaker 2: money drives everything. What are we getting the best outcome

591
00:30:47,733 --> 00:30:49,813
Speaker 2: and return on investment for our money at the moment,

592
00:30:50,053 --> 00:30:53,173
Speaker 2: So things like that need to be discussed in my view.

593
00:30:54,253 --> 00:30:56,653
Speaker 4: I've touched a fair bit on the challenges I guess

594
00:30:56,693 --> 00:31:03,653
Speaker 4: of recruitment and retention from pre professional inter professional. I

595
00:31:03,653 --> 00:31:06,373
Speaker 4: think it's about thirty five players you might be across

596
00:31:06,413 --> 00:31:08,733
Speaker 4: it and what they might be more leaving to rugby

597
00:31:08,733 --> 00:31:12,093
Speaker 4: teams in New Zealand alone. What's your assessment of the

598
00:31:12,133 --> 00:31:16,733
Speaker 4: production line, particularly given the the intense competition at the

599
00:31:17,133 --> 00:31:20,293
Speaker 4: bottom end and the depth, the overall depth of New

600
00:31:20,373 --> 00:31:22,013
Speaker 4: Zealand rugby, I think.

601
00:31:21,893 --> 00:31:26,613
Speaker 2: There's major concern. And again anecdotally, when your school boys

602
00:31:26,653 --> 00:31:30,133
Speaker 2: team gets beaten by eighty five points by Australia, which

603
00:31:30,173 --> 00:31:34,773
Speaker 2: was last year, that speaks to some of the depth

604
00:31:35,013 --> 00:31:38,613
Speaker 2: that we're looking at here. Hey, it may be in

605
00:31:38,653 --> 00:31:40,853
Speaker 2: a blip, it may be a year where it just

606
00:31:40,853 --> 00:31:43,013
Speaker 2: didn't click that for that side. But there's still some

607
00:31:43,053 --> 00:31:46,693
Speaker 2: good football, isn't it. My hunch and probably more than

608
00:31:46,773 --> 00:31:52,933
Speaker 2: hunch is the competition for talent is now proliferated. You know,

609
00:31:53,013 --> 00:31:55,333
Speaker 2: you've got basketball, which is also one of the highest

610
00:31:55,333 --> 00:31:58,373
Speaker 2: growth sports in our country, and when we're looking for

611
00:31:58,453 --> 00:32:01,253
Speaker 2: our not necessarily two meter pluses, but our big men.

612
00:32:02,093 --> 00:32:05,413
Speaker 2: A lot of them are playing that game. So again,

613
00:32:05,693 --> 00:32:08,053
Speaker 2: let's get down in the trenches, roll up our sleeves

614
00:32:08,133 --> 00:32:11,933
Speaker 2: and win the battles and provide pathways and you know,

615
00:32:12,133 --> 00:32:15,133
Speaker 2: persuade these guys that this is a game they should

616
00:32:15,133 --> 00:32:18,053
Speaker 2: be playing and give them reasons to do it. Now,

617
00:32:18,093 --> 00:32:22,013
Speaker 2: that's different thinking for rugby because it used to be

618
00:32:22,093 --> 00:32:24,653
Speaker 2: everybody wanted to be in all black, so they'd all

619
00:32:24,693 --> 00:32:26,973
Speaker 2: just line up and the ones that didn't make it

620
00:32:27,013 --> 00:32:29,533
Speaker 2: would go and play basketball or go and play rugby league. Well,

621
00:32:29,533 --> 00:32:33,293
Speaker 2: it's changing even the Pacific Islands. You know, Rugby League

622
00:32:33,293 --> 00:32:36,893
Speaker 2: now is very very active in recruiting direct from the

623
00:32:36,933 --> 00:32:40,493
Speaker 2: Pacific Islands. We've inherited so many quality players through the

624
00:32:40,493 --> 00:32:45,893
Speaker 2: Pacific Island base. You know, guys, let's wake up because

625
00:32:45,933 --> 00:32:47,973
Speaker 2: you're going to find that flow of talent is not

626
00:32:48,013 --> 00:32:50,893
Speaker 2: coming here either, and they're not going to our schools,

627
00:32:51,533 --> 00:32:54,373
Speaker 2: which is where they've all come out of the islands

628
00:32:54,373 --> 00:32:57,853
Speaker 2: and into some of our major schools. So you know,

629
00:32:58,053 --> 00:33:00,573
Speaker 2: it's coming from everywhere. We need to say, right, let's

630
00:33:00,613 --> 00:33:03,093
Speaker 2: get in roll else leaves up and make sure that

631
00:33:03,133 --> 00:33:07,213
Speaker 2: we're winning the battles we should be winning. And just

632
00:33:07,253 --> 00:33:09,933
Speaker 2: on that one about school. You know, another thing is

633
00:33:09,973 --> 00:33:12,693
Speaker 2: zeal On Rugby could and should do the visa issue

634
00:33:12,773 --> 00:33:15,893
Speaker 2: for these talented young rugby players that come into our schools.

635
00:33:16,653 --> 00:33:18,773
Speaker 2: The issue we have is when they come out of

636
00:33:18,773 --> 00:33:21,573
Speaker 2: school is they don't have a visa to stay in

637
00:33:21,573 --> 00:33:25,293
Speaker 2: this country. So what they've got to be is either

638
00:33:25,333 --> 00:33:28,853
Speaker 2: full time rugby players, of which NPC is not sufficient,

639
00:33:28,933 --> 00:33:32,333
Speaker 2: and they don't even get NPC contracts. Academies don't allow

640
00:33:32,413 --> 00:33:35,373
Speaker 2: it because they can't pay them enough, so they've got

641
00:33:35,413 --> 00:33:37,133
Speaker 2: to go somewhere else. We'll go back to the Islands,

642
00:33:37,733 --> 00:33:41,413
Speaker 2: go on lobby for a dozen special purpose rugby visas

643
00:33:41,413 --> 00:33:44,493
Speaker 2: with the government to build depth and allow these quality

644
00:33:44,573 --> 00:33:47,053
Speaker 2: kids who have been through our school system, given so

645
00:33:47,133 --> 00:33:50,293
Speaker 2: much to the game at school level and then have

646
00:33:50,293 --> 00:33:53,133
Speaker 2: to bugger off. The French are taking them, Rugby League's

647
00:33:53,173 --> 00:33:57,933
Speaker 2: taking them. So you know, just start having those conversations

648
00:33:58,493 --> 00:33:59,733
Speaker 2: and helping in that space.

649
00:34:00,613 --> 00:34:02,453
Speaker 3: How often are player is talking to you about the

650
00:34:02,613 --> 00:34:05,773
Speaker 3: eligibility and playing for the All Blacks from abroad? Is

651
00:34:05,773 --> 00:34:07,693
Speaker 3: that a conversation you have a Wriggle league. This is

652
00:34:07,733 --> 00:34:09,573
Speaker 3: a topic the always in the news around whether the

653
00:34:09,573 --> 00:34:11,613
Speaker 3: All Blacks will select from a board. Is this something

654
00:34:11,653 --> 00:34:13,773
Speaker 3: that players are asking you about. No, they're not.

655
00:34:14,133 --> 00:34:17,773
Speaker 2: I think their mentality is more. You know, we talked

656
00:34:17,773 --> 00:34:19,693
Speaker 2: about it earlier, the value of the black jersey. They're

657
00:34:19,693 --> 00:34:21,733
Speaker 2: prepared to walk away from it because they know it's

658
00:34:21,773 --> 00:34:23,813
Speaker 2: not really feasible to play for it while you're away.

659
00:34:24,253 --> 00:34:26,333
Speaker 2: I think turn that around, you know, I know there

660
00:34:26,373 --> 00:34:28,053
Speaker 2: is a school of thinking that thinks you'll get an

661
00:34:28,053 --> 00:34:30,693
Speaker 2: avalanche of players just leaving the country. Hey, the world

662
00:34:30,733 --> 00:34:33,533
Speaker 2: market has only got so many spots available, guys. They're

663
00:34:33,533 --> 00:34:35,173
Speaker 2: not all going to go and play in France with

664
00:34:35,253 --> 00:34:39,013
Speaker 2: the UK or Japan. I've got some limited numbers that

665
00:34:39,053 --> 00:34:40,973
Speaker 2: they can select in those teams too, So I don't

666
00:34:41,013 --> 00:34:44,773
Speaker 2: see that happening. I don't see an avalanche of talent.

667
00:34:45,893 --> 00:34:48,373
Speaker 2: But even then, you can still play with your rules.

668
00:34:48,373 --> 00:34:51,333
Speaker 2: I mean, Australia has got sixty caps and you're eligible

669
00:34:52,053 --> 00:34:54,373
Speaker 2: do whatever you want. That works the model for us,

670
00:34:54,973 --> 00:34:58,173
Speaker 2: But for the life of me, when you're also financially tapped,

671
00:34:59,053 --> 00:35:02,213
Speaker 2: why would you not let the top five ten twenty

672
00:35:02,213 --> 00:35:05,133
Speaker 2: players out free up the best part of I don't know,

673
00:35:05,813 --> 00:35:08,373
Speaker 2: ten million, fifteen million on your p and l and

674
00:35:08,453 --> 00:35:11,293
Speaker 2: repurpose that into pathways, comps and retaining some of your

675
00:35:11,373 --> 00:35:17,013
Speaker 2: under threat talent. That's another one. The world wants certain widgets,

676
00:35:18,133 --> 00:35:20,973
Speaker 2: they don't want all the widgets, and we're paying, in

677
00:35:20,973 --> 00:35:24,533
Speaker 2: some cases overs for positions that the world doesn't really want.

678
00:35:25,613 --> 00:35:28,773
Speaker 2: Your loose heads, your hookers, your open side flankers, your halfbacks.

679
00:35:28,813 --> 00:35:31,173
Speaker 2: The world doesn't really chase them less that absolute will

680
00:35:31,253 --> 00:35:34,053
Speaker 2: best and hence the reason we see the majority of

681
00:35:34,093 --> 00:35:37,933
Speaker 2: those positions hang around in our country. The other model

682
00:35:37,933 --> 00:35:40,453
Speaker 2: we have, which I shouldn't say this because they advocate

683
00:35:40,493 --> 00:35:42,333
Speaker 2: for players, but the more tests you play, the more

684
00:35:42,333 --> 00:35:45,053
Speaker 2: money you get. And that's great to a point. But

685
00:35:45,093 --> 00:35:46,893
Speaker 2: when you played one hundred tests, I guess what must

686
00:35:46,893 --> 00:35:49,853
Speaker 2: mean you're in your thirties. Your performance is coming down

687
00:35:49,893 --> 00:35:56,693
Speaker 2: the other side, Rugby league and other sports recognizes, you know,

688
00:35:57,133 --> 00:36:00,013
Speaker 2: how long the longevity you have to play that game.

689
00:36:01,933 --> 00:36:06,253
Speaker 2: Start thinking about the way we contract, the way we model.

690
00:36:06,493 --> 00:36:08,933
Speaker 2: You know, if it's not working, release them. Speak to

691
00:36:08,973 --> 00:36:12,573
Speaker 2: the agent. I mean it messagest today from an Australian

692
00:36:12,653 --> 00:36:15,533
Speaker 2: Raga league club, certain player. We're then talk about it.

693
00:36:15,653 --> 00:36:17,213
Speaker 2: We need Tom out of our top thirty next year.

694
00:36:18,533 --> 00:36:20,613
Speaker 2: We're going to start working, they're going to release them,

695
00:36:20,613 --> 00:36:22,053
Speaker 2: We're going to try and find them a home or

696
00:36:22,053 --> 00:36:24,053
Speaker 2: do a deal, give somebody to go and get another

697
00:36:24,053 --> 00:36:25,213
Speaker 2: dev spot or something like that.

698
00:36:26,053 --> 00:36:27,933
Speaker 3: How much is the reading, Yeah we touched on the stalel,

699
00:36:27,973 --> 00:36:29,653
Speaker 3: but how much is it just down to our national psyche?

700
00:36:29,733 --> 00:36:31,973
Speaker 3: Is that we just we're in a small country on

701
00:36:32,013 --> 00:36:34,373
Speaker 3: the other end of the world, and we are very isolated,

702
00:36:34,413 --> 00:36:36,813
Speaker 3: and we don't you know, money makes the world go around,

703
00:36:36,853 --> 00:36:39,973
Speaker 3: but we don't often see those big deals happening with

704
00:36:40,213 --> 00:36:42,813
Speaker 3: the business table, whatever it might be, and we're just

705
00:36:43,053 --> 00:36:46,253
Speaker 3: sort of whether it's you know, infrastructure in the country,

706
00:36:46,253 --> 00:36:47,693
Speaker 3: whatever it might be. We're sort of just stuck in

707
00:36:47,733 --> 00:36:48,573
Speaker 3: our own little bubble.

708
00:36:49,133 --> 00:36:51,333
Speaker 2: And yeah, you're one hundred percent right, Elliott and some

709
00:36:51,373 --> 00:36:54,773
Speaker 2: of their thinking. But you know, a little phrase of

710
00:36:54,773 --> 00:36:56,573
Speaker 2: mind that I've used with them for a long time.

711
00:36:57,893 --> 00:37:01,093
Speaker 2: You can't use your micro rules and expect to operate

712
00:37:01,133 --> 00:37:05,213
Speaker 2: in the macro world. So you've got to start thinking

713
00:37:05,213 --> 00:37:07,453
Speaker 2: if you want to be part of the ecosystem globally,

714
00:37:07,773 --> 00:37:10,413
Speaker 2: start thinking like it. And hey, you may have to

715
00:37:10,453 --> 00:37:14,133
Speaker 2: recruit people into your business that are from that outside

716
00:37:14,133 --> 00:37:16,053
Speaker 2: world to start shaking up the way in which you

717
00:37:16,093 --> 00:37:19,853
Speaker 2: do business here, you know, and dere I say, the

718
00:37:19,893 --> 00:37:22,693
Speaker 2: cut and thrust of the other code is doing that

719
00:37:22,813 --> 00:37:26,053
Speaker 2: every day, and not just I keep referring to the

720
00:37:26,093 --> 00:37:28,533
Speaker 2: other code being rugby league, but there are sports all

721
00:37:28,533 --> 00:37:31,933
Speaker 2: around the world, in NBA, NFL, all those sorts of things.

722
00:37:32,133 --> 00:37:36,573
Speaker 2: It's the same thing. That's the way the sporting world

723
00:37:36,613 --> 00:37:40,333
Speaker 2: has matured. And we're thirty years in in rugby, it's

724
00:37:40,373 --> 00:37:43,413
Speaker 2: time to take another leap and go right. We're into

725
00:37:43,413 --> 00:37:46,053
Speaker 2: a you know that that brings for discussion. Is super

726
00:37:46,133 --> 00:37:47,613
Speaker 2: Rugby the right model going forward?

727
00:37:47,973 --> 00:37:48,173
Speaker 3: You know?

728
00:37:48,213 --> 00:37:50,853
Speaker 2: That's another one for discussion. Is that doing the job

729
00:37:50,893 --> 00:37:51,493
Speaker 2: we want it to do?

730
00:37:52,453 --> 00:37:52,653
Speaker 3: You know?

731
00:37:52,733 --> 00:37:56,573
Speaker 2: Are we getting the crowd engagement as our TV audience

732
00:37:56,693 --> 00:38:00,093
Speaker 2: growing declining? What's happening? Do we need to go back

733
00:38:00,133 --> 00:38:05,173
Speaker 2: to the tribalism of MPC? I don't know. Have five six, seven,

734
00:38:05,293 --> 00:38:09,093
Speaker 2: eight teams pro? What will that funding cost? What does

735
00:38:09,093 --> 00:38:12,653
Speaker 2: that do? What does our broadcaster want all of that stuff?

736
00:38:13,853 --> 00:38:16,413
Speaker 2: Is there something we need to be brave and courageous

737
00:38:16,493 --> 00:38:19,573
Speaker 2: right now? We can't sit on our hands because our

738
00:38:19,613 --> 00:38:21,013
Speaker 2: relevance is being challenged.

739
00:38:22,173 --> 00:38:25,893
Speaker 4: What we've seen witness the boom around the Warriors and

740
00:38:25,933 --> 00:38:29,013
Speaker 4: It's not necessarily comparing apples with apples because they are

741
00:38:29,653 --> 00:38:35,173
Speaker 4: a one club, one nation team, but there's clearly a

742
00:38:35,293 --> 00:38:41,373
Speaker 4: cultural movement and part of that success. But the Warriors

743
00:38:41,413 --> 00:38:45,053
Speaker 4: have always had those bolted on fans. What are they

744
00:38:45,053 --> 00:38:50,653
Speaker 4: doing well and how are they engaging people? What have

745
00:38:50,733 --> 00:38:55,693
Speaker 4: you witnessed both within the club and as a sport

746
00:38:56,173 --> 00:38:57,973
Speaker 4: that rugby league is getting right.

747
00:38:59,533 --> 00:39:03,253
Speaker 2: Look Cam Georgia, no personally, he was my chair when

748
00:39:03,293 --> 00:39:07,093
Speaker 2: I was at New Zealand Racing and Cam is an

749
00:39:07,093 --> 00:39:10,933
Speaker 2: extremely innovative thinker. But one of the things he recognized

750
00:39:11,373 --> 00:39:17,853
Speaker 2: straight away the fan drives the club and so ensuring

751
00:39:17,893 --> 00:39:20,813
Speaker 2: that they've got the best social media people available to

752
00:39:21,013 --> 00:39:24,533
Speaker 2: him to push out their content to engage with their

753
00:39:24,533 --> 00:39:27,813
Speaker 2: fan base was critical. The next step in all of

754
00:39:27,813 --> 00:39:30,533
Speaker 2: that was to make sure that the fan experience come

755
00:39:30,613 --> 00:39:34,573
Speaker 2: game day was super exciting. And I think we'd all

756
00:39:34,613 --> 00:39:38,253
Speaker 2: agree that going to a Warriors home game and even

757
00:39:38,293 --> 00:39:40,453
Speaker 2: now some away games, if you're put in a Brisbane

758
00:39:41,053 --> 00:39:45,213
Speaker 2: the other day, is a great experience. The kids are

759
00:39:45,253 --> 00:39:47,653
Speaker 2: loving it that you know, the music's going, the lights

760
00:39:47,693 --> 00:39:50,533
Speaker 2: are going, flames are shooting, there's stuff going on, and

761
00:39:50,573 --> 00:39:54,453
Speaker 2: I know rugby's trying to up the ante. Even Auckland

762
00:39:54,493 --> 00:39:58,373
Speaker 2: FC have made a real impact in that space. So

763
00:39:58,413 --> 00:40:02,053
Speaker 2: the real I think has been a real focus on

764
00:40:02,813 --> 00:40:07,533
Speaker 2: customer first, mentality and fan engagement first and foremost, and

765
00:40:07,573 --> 00:40:10,573
Speaker 2: then clearly teams success as just the cream on the cake,

766
00:40:10,653 --> 00:40:13,533
Speaker 2: because team success will come and go. There are no

767
00:40:13,613 --> 00:40:16,413
Speaker 2: real dynasties in the world of rugby league. I mean,

768
00:40:16,413 --> 00:40:19,173
Speaker 2: Penrith has been exceptional and doing so. Melbourne Storm has

769
00:40:19,173 --> 00:40:22,933
Speaker 2: been perennial, top two, top fours, but most of them

770
00:40:22,933 --> 00:40:26,933
Speaker 2: come and go because their salary cap actually works. So

771
00:40:27,173 --> 00:40:29,213
Speaker 2: that's what I see. I see that happening. I see

772
00:40:29,253 --> 00:40:32,093
Speaker 2: them really treating their fan at the front of everything

773
00:40:32,093 --> 00:40:35,293
Speaker 2: they do. And then you know they're clearly doing a

774
00:40:35,293 --> 00:40:38,853
Speaker 2: great job with their coach appointments, with their idea appointments,

775
00:40:39,053 --> 00:40:41,373
Speaker 2: and they're getting good depth charts. You've now seen good

776
00:40:41,373 --> 00:40:43,733
Speaker 2: performance on field as well.

777
00:40:43,733 --> 00:40:48,413
Speaker 4: We've covered a fair bit today. But if if we

778
00:40:48,533 --> 00:40:52,533
Speaker 4: bring it back to rugby, and he's Rugby's Gone new CEO,

779
00:40:52,653 --> 00:40:55,013
Speaker 4: Steve Lancaster, if you could go to him with a

780
00:40:55,013 --> 00:40:58,093
Speaker 4: blank sheet of paper and say these are the three

781
00:40:58,453 --> 00:41:02,973
Speaker 4: major changes you need to make to repurpose rugby to

782
00:41:03,253 --> 00:41:07,453
Speaker 4: re engage fans. It's not broken, but clearly some changes

783
00:41:07,453 --> 00:41:09,853
Speaker 4: need to make. What would be your top three line

784
00:41:09,893 --> 00:41:12,493
Speaker 4: things and in terms of big shifts that we could

785
00:41:12,493 --> 00:41:14,133
Speaker 4: make now, yeah, I would.

786
00:41:14,733 --> 00:41:16,533
Speaker 2: The first one I'll talk about is fan engagement. I

787
00:41:16,533 --> 00:41:18,733
Speaker 2: think everything we have to do in the game is

788
00:41:18,733 --> 00:41:21,013
Speaker 2: about fan. Without the fan, you don't have a game.

789
00:41:21,053 --> 00:41:25,173
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what you do. So look at everything

790
00:41:25,253 --> 00:41:28,133
Speaker 2: you're doing and at the top of every whether it's

791
00:41:28,133 --> 00:41:31,373
Speaker 2: conscious or subconscious, is the fan of beneficiary of that

792
00:41:31,453 --> 00:41:34,493
Speaker 2: decision and does that enhance the experience for the fan?

793
00:41:35,173 --> 00:41:37,133
Speaker 2: And will there be a positive reaction to it. That's

794
00:41:37,173 --> 00:41:39,573
Speaker 2: everything you're doing, So make it one of your key

795
00:41:39,653 --> 00:41:42,173
Speaker 2: mentors that whatever you do, is that good or bad

796
00:41:42,173 --> 00:41:44,213
Speaker 2: for the fan. That would be the first thing. The

797
00:41:44,293 --> 00:41:48,773
Speaker 2: second thing I'd talk about is ensuring that we're getting

798
00:41:49,653 --> 00:41:53,493
Speaker 2: depth in our player base and therefore your pathways need

799
00:41:53,533 --> 00:41:56,093
Speaker 2: to be sorted out and you need to look at

800
00:41:56,373 --> 00:41:58,373
Speaker 2: and I know funding is a challenge, but you need

801
00:41:58,413 --> 00:42:00,253
Speaker 2: to look at are you getting banged for buck with

802
00:42:00,253 --> 00:42:02,733
Speaker 2: where you're spinning at the moment, because I think you

803
00:42:02,773 --> 00:42:05,613
Speaker 2: are getting beaten too the drawer with the other code

804
00:42:05,653 --> 00:42:07,693
Speaker 2: at the moment, and a lot of it's to do

805
00:42:07,773 --> 00:42:09,813
Speaker 2: with that nice clear pathway that they have and the

806
00:42:09,813 --> 00:42:13,253
Speaker 2: opportunity they're offering these young people. So I'd be saying,

807
00:42:13,293 --> 00:42:16,173
Speaker 2: you need to fix the pathway stuff. And look, I

808
00:42:16,253 --> 00:42:19,333
Speaker 2: heard some just a couple of days ago, the zeal

809
00:42:19,453 --> 00:42:21,493
Speaker 2: Rugbies come up with it with an app to help

810
00:42:21,533 --> 00:42:26,973
Speaker 2: them id regionally all the top players at school level,

811
00:42:27,013 --> 00:42:29,573
Speaker 2: et cetera. They feed and they can monitor it and

812
00:42:29,933 --> 00:42:33,253
Speaker 2: fantastic to hear. Okay, so there's possibly work going on

813
00:42:33,293 --> 00:42:35,773
Speaker 2: that we're all unaware of, but we need to fix

814
00:42:35,813 --> 00:42:41,293
Speaker 2: that part of the game. Yeah, Look beyond that, I

815
00:42:41,333 --> 00:42:44,773
Speaker 2: think you then look at the privatization and say, you know,

816
00:42:45,373 --> 00:42:47,933
Speaker 2: have we got our model right? Central contracting has served

817
00:42:47,973 --> 00:42:52,293
Speaker 2: us well, but it's a new world. Do we need

818
00:42:52,373 --> 00:42:56,493
Speaker 2: new resource Do we need basically ownership that at whatever

819
00:42:56,573 --> 00:42:59,173
Speaker 2: that i'll call it franchise level is And whether or

820
00:42:59,213 --> 00:43:02,453
Speaker 2: not Super Rugby is that model, I'm not sure. But

821
00:43:02,533 --> 00:43:04,973
Speaker 2: let's have that conversation and bring them in as true

822
00:43:04,973 --> 00:43:08,533
Speaker 2: partners into that and that problem or they probably be

823
00:43:08,573 --> 00:43:11,573
Speaker 2: my top three top head that I'd focus on.

824
00:43:12,093 --> 00:43:13,973
Speaker 3: It's a pretty good place to leave it, with plenty

825
00:43:13,973 --> 00:43:16,773
Speaker 3: for our listeners to ponder. As a result, of that, Bruce,

826
00:43:17,013 --> 00:43:19,173
Speaker 3: thanks so much of your time, and perhaps look forward

827
00:43:19,173 --> 00:43:20,813
Speaker 3: to having you on again sometime down the track, and

828
00:43:20,813 --> 00:43:23,213
Speaker 3: maybe these things have been implemented we can talk about that.

829
00:43:23,693 --> 00:43:25,653
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, guys, I really pretty enjoyed it.

830
00:43:25,733 --> 00:43:29,893
Speaker 1: Cheers for more from News Talks b Listen live on

831
00:43:29,973 --> 00:43:32,933
Speaker 1: air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever

832
00:43:32,973 --> 00:43:35,533
Speaker 1: you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio.