1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: The Solicitor Generals reissued her controversial controversial prosecution guidelines. These 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: are the ones that urged prosecutors to think carefully about prosecutions, 3 00:00:08,400 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: especially when a person is Marty. Now you'll remember that 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,119 Speaker 1: back in October she withdrew them after Mike and This 5 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: show raised concerns about them and joining us. Now is 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: the Solicitor General owner to goes Hi Una, Do you 7 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 1: accept that you made a mistake with those guidelines. 8 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 2: Yes, I wasn't clear what I meant when I referred 9 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: to the facts of Marty's disproportionate representation in the criminal 10 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: justice system, and it led to as your instruction just said, 11 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: misunderstanding or confusion about what I was saying. And this 12 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: point is too important to have left there. So I 13 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: heard the criticism and the misunderstanding or of the error 14 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:45,880 Speaker 2: of my expression. A few people wrote in. Quite a 15 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 2: few people wrote in as well to say that they 16 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: misunderstood or didn't understand what I meant, and I needed 17 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: to redo that. So we've done that, as I said 18 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 2: they would. We've revised the way in which the introduction 19 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 2: is put, and we've made sure that there's no other 20 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 2: part to the guidelines that lacks the clarity that is 21 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: so important for people to understand, so that the criminal 22 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 2: justice system approaches people on the individual presentation, their circumstances, 23 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 2: their culpability, how their background brings them to where they 24 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 2: are today. That's the error, and that's incorrected. 25 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: If we got it wrong by assuming that you meant ethnicity, 26 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: what did you actually mean? 27 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 2: Well, I meant that I was referring to part of 28 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:31,959 Speaker 2: the context. Part of the context of the review was 29 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 2: to recognize that Mary our disproportionately represented in our criminal 30 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,959 Speaker 2: justice statistics. But in the way I had put it 31 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 2: was I mean, I accept that it was confusing. Ask yourself, 32 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 2: what does that mean? That's what people were saying, what 33 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 2: does that mean? And that's what I listened to. 34 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: When people will tell us that or what did it mean? 35 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: UNA, Well, exactly this that that is part of our context, 36 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: as I've just said. But what prosecutors must do is 37 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: address the individual because that's where the criminal justice system 38 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 2: and the individual come together on their on their circumstances, 39 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: on their background. So my mistake was to be unclear 40 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 2: about that and to push those two things to. 41 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, let me read it to you and you 42 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: tell me if we've got this wrong, because your advice 43 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:21,640 Speaker 1: was think carefully about particular decisions. Where a person is Maori, 44 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: I think that's pretty the sentence, or a member of 45 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: any other group that is disproportionately impacted by the criminal 46 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 1: justice system. Now I read that, and I think that's 47 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: pretty clear that what you're saying is if somebody has 48 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: popped up in front of the criminal justice system and 49 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:43,520 Speaker 1: they are disproportionately impacted Mari Pacifica, a victim of abuse 50 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: when they were young, whatever, then you need to think 51 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: carefully about whether you prosecute them or not. 52 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 2: So the reason that I took them down was for 53 00:02:52,520 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: this very reason that people were uncre am I right? 54 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: Am I wrong? 55 00:02:57,480 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: Well? I was wrong about what? 56 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: Am I wrong in interpreting it the way that I have? 57 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: Well, you haven't continued to read out the whole paragraph, 58 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 2: which goes on to say, this isn't to say that 59 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,239 Speaker 2: membership of a particular group is relevant, but it is 60 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: individual circumstances. 61 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: Well, read you some more of what you said? Did 62 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: you read you some more? The experience of Mary is unique. 63 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 1: No community in this country was deprived of its autonomy, 64 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: internal cohesion and economic resilience. In quite the way Mary 65 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: communities were. 66 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 2: Is that and where does that come from? I mean, 67 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: sorry to. 68 00:03:33,639 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: That's in your prosecution. It's further down your prosecution, the 69 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: original prosecution guideline. 70 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: That's part of the part of a court judgment, designticle. 71 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: Did you know? 72 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 2: So your question to me is I think, why did 73 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 2: you change them? And why I changed That's not your question. 74 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: My question is if you didn't mean that we were 75 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: supposed to that prosecutors were supposed to look at any 76 00:03:57,240 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: of these groups of people, including Marty, and go a 77 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: little on them because they're Mary or any of these 78 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:03,920 Speaker 1: other groups, then what did you mean? And you were 79 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: unable to explain that to me? 80 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 2: I'm absolutely clear that what you were saying is the 81 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 2: very reason we had to change it, because people thought 82 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: I was saying something that I didn't intend to say. 83 00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: So what m I guarantend to say, take of clarity. 84 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 2: I intended to say is that, as the guidelines say, 85 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:26,359 Speaker 2: when you are dealing with an individual in the criminal 86 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: justice system, it is their circumstances, their background, their culpability 87 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,479 Speaker 2: that is relevant, not whether they are a particular group 88 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: or not. Thing Mary per se is not relevant. 89 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you actually mentioned being part of a particular group, 90 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: So it seems like it's relevant anyway. Listen, when you 91 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: published it, had you not had a warning from the 92 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: Attorney General Judith Collins not to publish it. 93 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,039 Speaker 2: No, we had gone through an earlier iteration and she 94 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 2: had expressed some concerns about clarity, which we had. I 95 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: had gone back to and attempted to be more clear, 96 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 2: and I missed the mark, as I said in my 97 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: eighteenth of October. 98 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: So this one then you put out, this one that 99 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 1: you put out, You thought this was your attempt at 100 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: being more clear. 101 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 2: Well, and I was wrong about that because it wasn't clear. 102 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: When she refused to write the foreword for you, which 103 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: is very unusual. Did you not think then that you 104 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: had a problem. 105 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 2: Well, as I said on this channel only yesterday, that's 106 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 2: not actually how it went. We didn't invite the Attorney 107 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 2: General to write a forward this time, sorry, in the 108 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: earlier version this year, because we thought that better reflected 109 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:35,280 Speaker 2: what the statute says, which is that these are guidelines 110 00:05:35,320 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: for the solicit to general. But in light of what 111 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 2: has happened that in my error and the lack of 112 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 2: clarity and the confusion about what is required. We thought 113 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: it was better that the law officers, the Attorney General 114 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: and the Solicter General are seen to be aligned on 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: what the guidelines say to prosecutors, and that's why the 116 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 2: Attorney put the forward on this version. 117 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: Okay, listen, you've copped it lately, right, You've copped it 118 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:03,520 Speaker 1: over this which is fair and square at one of 119 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: your mistakes, and you've also copped it about the apology 120 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: with the state abuse survivors. Are you going to stay 121 00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: in the job. Yes, okay, Una, thanks very much, really 122 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: appreciate it and as it goes, Solicitor General. 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