WEBVTT - The Puppeteer: How one NZ woman catfished dozens of victims over 20 years 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.800 Kyoda, I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:17.160 a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.960 twenty eleven, ends at Herald journalist David Fisher became aware 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:26.240 that a woman had been caught catfishing dozens of teenage 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:30.520 boys and young men across New Zealand. Catfishing is a 0:00:30.600 --> 0:00:34.240 term used for people who use stolen photos to pretend 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.600 to be someone else online, usually to form. 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.880 Relationships with real people across social media. 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.080 Fisher would go on to expose the woman behind the 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:48.000 false online accounts as Natalia Burger's. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.600 She referred to herself as the Puppeteer. 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:57.400 Fisher interviewed her on several occasions before she went to 0:00:57.560 --> 0:01:01.880 jail for charges related to her online activity. He thought 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.040 she would have learnt her lesson, but two years ago 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.560 he received an email from a woman who had her 0:01:08.560 --> 0:01:12.200 photos stolen by Burgess and it was ruining her life. 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:17.240 Fisher explored Burgess's actions in the true crime podcast Chasing 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:21.039 Ghosts the Puppeteer, and he joins us today on the 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:22.240 Front Page. 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:28.720 To discuss what he learned. Fish. 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:33.120 When you first reported on Natalia Burgess in twenty eleven, 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:35.840 did you think you would still be talking about her 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:37.200 thirteen years later? 0:01:37.680 --> 0:01:41.360 Back in twenty eleven, this story, the Facebook predator story, 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.760 as it was known at the time, it seemed to 0:01:43.800 --> 0:01:46.120 me that it was going to exist like most stories do, 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:49.440 that it unfolds with in a fairly confined space and 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:54.560 then becomes consigned to our cultural memory, consigned to history. 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.360 It wasn't something that I thought I was going to 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.960 come back to. Her being sent to president twenty thirteen 0:02:01.120 --> 0:02:05.040 seemed to draw a line under it. And it's perhaps 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.200 the naive side of me that I can't scrub out 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:12.120 that thought, Well, she'll learn a lesson and move on 0:02:12.240 --> 0:02:14.600 with life, and that will be that fish. 0:02:14.600 --> 0:02:16.880 Can you sum up in your own words what Natalia 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:20.840 Bird just did back when you first investigated this case 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:22.200 and when she went to jail. 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.399 So the thing that was striking about this case from 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:30.440 the outset was police had said that they were seeking 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:36.919 or investigating an individual who had catfished or formed online relationships, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.760 was how police phrased it at the time, with around 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:43.440 forty boys that were out of high school in christ Church, 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:48.399 and that kind of set the tone for the investigation 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.519 that followed. It seemed most of Natalia's online interactions were 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:59.680 very much focused on teenage boys and forming romantic relationships 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:00.000 with them. 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.200 There was another stream. 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:05.600 Of style of offending us supposed, which was forming almost 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:09.560 high school clique girly type groups with others that she 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.919 had encountered on social media. And it was also fascinating 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:17.200 that she created her own clique of half a dozen 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:21.400 false characters that would travel as a pack. So that 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.840 was really the main focus was forming romantic relationships with 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:26.640 teenage boys. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.040 And then you got the email from Crystal Jenner in 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:29.959 twenty twenty two. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.400 I'm sorry to bother you, but the article you recently 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.960 published and the above subject was sent to me by 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.600 a friend, as Natalia Burgess has been using my images 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:44.240 since twenty fourteen till current catfish multiple people, both men 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:48.400 and women. I've had four men and one woman contact 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:49.560 me in the last four months. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.200 What was your first reaction to learning Entalia was doing 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:55.040 it all over again. 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:59.800 It was almost deflating, actually, in the sense that I'd 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:04.000 read Crystal's email and I thought, really, is she really 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.280 still doing that? We're almost ten years down the track, 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:09.440 or in fact, we were beyond ten years down the 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.960 track at that stage, and she seemed to be bagging 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:17.120 the same drum. It was intriguing, but plainly I felt 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.360 somewhat deflated. I felt that I was going to be 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.919 writing about the same person doing the same thing in 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:28.640 the same way, and that didn't initially hold a huge appeal. 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:32.919 You've investigated this case across five episodes of the latest 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:37.480 Chasing Ghosts season The Puppeteer. You spoke to a number 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.160 of people who had dealings with Natalia, but I understand 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:44.960 that you contacted many, many more people about this. Why 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:46.000 didn't they want to talk? 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:49.359 Almost universally from those people that didn't want to come 0:04:49.640 --> 0:04:53.520 forward was the pain that they were left with, the 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:56.760 trauma that they had experienced as a result of their 0:04:56.880 --> 0:05:01.560 interactions with Natalia. And this was part of broadening my 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.920 knowledge as well as to the nature of her offending 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:08.920 because it had shifted since she had come out of prison. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:13.520 She wasn't targeting teenage boys quite so much, and there 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.520 was also the discovery that there was another pool of 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:22.840 victims that she deliberately and relentlessly targeted, and that was 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.320 teenage girls and their mums, who she went on to 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:30.360 form very long and very meaningful relationships with through her 0:05:30.400 --> 0:05:34.080 false characters, and so it had evolved quite a bit 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:37.719 in the nature of the story, and as I spoke 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:41.680 to them, the drawball was plain to see. But the 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:45.680 thing that really struck me was how deep those relationships 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:50.520 have been. The previous encounter with her back in twenty eleven. 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:54.200 The boys that she was forming a relationship with online, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.120 and a lot of them were boys as young as thirteen. 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:02.279 Those relationships might be a matter of months, perhaps six months, 0:06:02.440 --> 0:06:05.840 even stretched out to a year or so, but when 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:12.120 it came to those more familiar, less romantic relationships, they 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.240 would stretch on for years. There was a mom and 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:19.320 daughter in Australia who feature on the podcast. They've been 0:06:19.440 --> 0:06:24.320 involved with Natalia's false character for six years and for 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:28.920 them discovering that the person they thought existed, this character Kaylee, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.440 was fake, was incredibly painful. 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.159 It's so so damaging, really hurtful. 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.280 I thought, well, how can this person do this for 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:43.840 so long, tending to be someone else? Why would they 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:44.120 do it? 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:47.599 You know, because it's she treated us like her mom 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.120 and her sister, and it's her. 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.320 And annoying that she's done all this for what what 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.040 reason would she get out of doing this? 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.320 So upsets me the most. 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:04.080 You know, and that was a feature with many of 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.640 the people that I'd encountered. There was one woman who 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:10.160 had agreed to an interview because her and her son 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:14.880 had been instead by Natalia Goodness fifteen years ago or 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:19.000 more perhaps, and she was initially keen to speak to me, 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:22.480 but when she checked it with her son, it created 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:26.520 a spiral of mood, a downward spiral of mood, and 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:30.960 someone that's now man fifteen years on and was just 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:35.240 too painful, too difficult for him to contemplate his mum 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:46.640 speaking about it. 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.680 It is incredible to learn about the web that Natalia 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:54.040 weaved over so long a period, and it's obviously traumatized 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:57.040 a lot of people still, even like you said, over 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:57.920 a decade later. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.520 We should take a moment here. 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.240 To specify as well that Burgess herself has her own 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.440 mental health issues in a pretty rough past as well. 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:08.640 Right, Yeah, that's correct. 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:13.160 Natalia really went through a very very difficult time as 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:18.720 a girl and a teenager, and as I partly learned 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:22.840 and have discovered much more with this recent round of reporting, 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.040 she has serious mental health issues with which she's wrestling 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:33.800 borderline personality disorder and more recently diagnosed schizophrenia really complicate 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:36.360 the way that she sees the world or the way 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:37.920 that she interacts with the world. 0:08:38.760 --> 0:08:42.400 How difficult was that in making the series, balancing her 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.079 victims stories and Natalia's issues. 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:51.520 I think it was really just about listening to Natalia 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:57.679 and listening to the victims and understanding the direction from 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.000 their respective positions. It would have been very easy to 0:09:02.520 --> 0:09:06.319 have listened only to the victims who had such compelling stories, 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.080 whose pain was so close to the surface that it 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.559 was impossible to miss, to listen only to those victims 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:16.360 and to be close ed to Natalia. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.479 But you can't do that. In journalism. 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:23.199 It's all sides of the story there for the investigating, 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.280 and we have an obligation, I think, to approach all 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:30.840 sides of those stories in the same even handed, empathetic way. 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:35.120 And so the more that was learned about Natalia, and 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.800 the better picture that developed of how she saw the 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.920 world and how she interacted with the world, it became 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:48.000 I think evident as we work through the podcast that 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.800 she had a very compelling story to share in terms 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.120 of how the offending that she committed came to be. 0:09:57.880 --> 0:10:01.760 It didn't invalidate it doesn't date any of the victim's stories. 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:05.040 Speaking to the offender, and most of all, listening to 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.719 an offender when you write about crime stories does not 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:11.439 invalidate the victims of crime or the stories that they 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.600 have to tell. I think what it does is it 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.040 informs our understanding of how that crime happened in the 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:22.720 first place, and one would hope provides our communities at 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.480 a wider society the tools that they need to stop 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:31.040 that kind of offending from happening again, or at least 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:33.680 finding a way to deal with it better than we 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:34.760 have before. 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.320 I understand that I've hurt people, and I've understand that 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:47.160 I don't have any empathy. I'm sorry, but I don't. 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:52.640 There's one thing I don't have. I had it when 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:58.760 I was young, but then I just stopped caring about people. 0:11:02.880 --> 0:11:06.400 These stories develop over time while you're making them right. 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:10.360 I understand you explored online safety a bit more in depth, 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:13.880 and if the laws we have in New Zealand are working, 0:11:14.559 --> 0:11:17.360 what did that safe tell you about the state of 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:19.160 internet safety in our country. 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:23.199 There were some real big picture issues that came into. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.640 Focus through the course of investigating this, and that was 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.840 about the environment in which Natalia and the victims of 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.719 her behavior were existing that online environment. I wanted to 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.679 get a really good understanding of the state of our 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.720 laws in New Zealand and also global perspective of whether 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:47.000 these social media giants were good community citizens. Did their 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:51.720 business help our world function better and help our communities 0:11:51.800 --> 0:11:55.600 be better than they were before. And so yes, net 0:11:55.679 --> 0:11:59.840 Safe and police and others were interviewed as part of this, 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.520 And where we got to was that the introduction of 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.720 the Harmful Digital Communications Act in twenty fifteen really provided 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:13.160 a good pathway in New Zealand for people who had 0:12:13.240 --> 0:12:16.720 been on the end of behaviors such as Natalias, to 0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:21.280 raise with authorities the issues that they had and try 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.400 and find some sort of a resolution. So net safe 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:30.200 provides a mediated resolution, Police provide a criminal pathway, and 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.960 so those tools are there and they're available for authorities 0:12:34.000 --> 0:12:36.680 to use. They're available for those that have suffered at 0:12:36.720 --> 0:12:39.960 the sharp end to take advantage of. What I did 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:43.840 discover is that the problem here is volume and also 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:48.320 I suppose the pyramid of online offending. 0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:51.360 So when I talk about the pyramid. 0:12:51.280 --> 0:12:55.160 I talked to police over the years, spoken to our 0:12:55.480 --> 0:13:01.400 intelligence agencies about national security style issues, and at the 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:06.040 top of the pyramid are really big, really complicated issues 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:10.720 that our enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies are very much 0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:13.840 focused on because of the devastating impact they could have 0:13:14.000 --> 0:13:16.160 to a wide number of US And so I'm talking 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:21.840 about national security, terrorism type issues, transnational organized crime, the 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.160 extraordinary financial crime reporting that my colleague Lane Nichols has 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:26.920 done such. 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:28.360 Remarkable work on. 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:31.600 And when you get down to the bottom of the pyramid, 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:34.880 those things that happen lots, but they happen to individuals. 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.600 There's this type of thing that Natali was doing, I mean, 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.080 her mode of behavior and what she's doing really as 0:13:43.120 --> 0:13:45.840 well out of the box. It'll be hard to find 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.160 I think anyone in New Zealand and possibly even wider 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.480 afield that has done what she's done at the scale 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.520 she's done it for the time she's done it, goodness, 0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:01.199 twenty three years. But that volume crime, it's kind of 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.120 like burglary if you moved it into the real world, 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:07.120 the sort of crime that happens at a really really 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.560 high rate and it affects a very large volume of people, 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.160 some of whom will be really badly affected, but broadly 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:20.640 it's an awful invasion and one that people find a 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.800 way to incorporate in their life and move on. 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:26.840 Very very large numbers of victims. 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.040 And for police, they have to investigate this investigated the 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.280 same way that they would have very serious crime if 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.080 they're going to do it to the fullest of their abilities. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:40.640 It requires large numbers of officers to do canvassing of 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:45.240 the neighborhood. It requires a scene of crime forensic technicians 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.400 to dust down and look for fingerprints and other signs. 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.400 It requires police to use an expertise in matching up 0:14:52.400 --> 0:14:55.400 with other crimes that are of a similar nature. So 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.040 it can be incredibly, incredibly time consuming and it's a 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:03.960 very difficult area for police to perform effectively in because 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:06.640 of the share volume of it. And I think it 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:09.840 sits in the same space, but with it sitting in 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:13.440 the same space, there's a further complication too. And police 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:19.320 acknowledge this that their transition from policing in our physical 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:24.239 world to policing our online world is a work in progress. 0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:27.480 Across the nation, we have more than ten thousand police 0:15:28.160 --> 0:15:32.280 within the cyber crime or high tech crime unit. There's 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:36.360 two hundred and that's number that's going to have to grow. 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:42.520 Significantly over time, along with building capability so that you 0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:45.320 don't get fresh comfortable sitting down at a computer wanting it, 0:15:45.760 --> 0:15:48.080 trying to work out how to turn it on. So 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.920 you've got this vastly growing volume crime that's happening, not 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:55.320 a huge amount of policing resource that's focused on it, 0:15:55.360 --> 0:15:57.560 although that's growing and there's an awareness that it needs 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:00.640 to grow further, and it makes it difficult from a 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:03.960 domestic enforcement perspective to really get a. 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:04.480 Grip on him. 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:17.600 And you also put cybercrime and these laws to the 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:18.640 relevant ministers. 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.600 Hey, what did they have to say? 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.720 I approached Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith's office and Police Minister 0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:29.800 Mark Mitchell and their response was largely, we're doing things 0:16:30.680 --> 0:16:33.320 and look at the things that we're doing, which were 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:35.840 these really big picture stuff, the stuff that's at the 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.320 top of the pyramid. And so that very much has 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:45.200 New Zealand keeping in pace with partner agencies offshore and 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.960 when it comes to the top of the pyramid, it 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.880 does put us in a better position as far as 0:16:51.920 --> 0:16:55.920 information sharing with foreign partners goes, as far as addressing 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.640 those top of the pyramid types of crime, not so 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:00.800 much down the bottom end. 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.240 Of the volume crime area, and Mark. 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.040 Mitchell did have some acknowledgment that there were changes that 0:17:07.119 --> 0:17:09.600 were taking place that did need to and. 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:10.600 Were happening there. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.239 I think perhaps the speed at which those things are 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:19.480 happening is an issue that police should be talking about 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:24.879 and talking with wider communities about. But yeah, it's not 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:29.720 something that's off the government's radar. But again, it's the 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:34.560 burglary thing. There's plenty of big, nasty, angry beasts out 0:17:34.600 --> 0:17:37.560 there before you start dealing with rats and mice. 0:17:38.119 --> 0:17:41.320 One thing I saw in the Facebook comments on the 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:45.439 stories of Natalia was people think she just must be 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.360 enjoying the attention the series is given her. 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:51.280 Is that a relevant concern to you? 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.679 Well, I can say that she's not enjoying it. Natalia 0:17:54.760 --> 0:18:00.040 is discomfort with her activities being inquired into again, and 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.680 she's made playing to me on a number of occasions, 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:05.639 and there's a number of reasons for that. Some of 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:08.760 that self preservation in terms of concern about what may 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.760 happen to her. She's also deeply concerned about the impact 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.040 on her parents that she doesn't want them to see 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:22.680 her in the public sphere having her behavior talked about again. Yeah, 0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:27.200 so I do have some concern that people would assume. 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:30.600 That she's getting out of this things that she is not. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:35.200 And for those that do think that this is all 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:37.760 fun and games for her, it's certainly not the case. 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.600 She told you when you interviewed her again in this 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.800 year for Chasing Ghosts, that she's stopped. 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:46.720 And you're here telling me now that you've. 0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:48.200 Stopped about a year ago. 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.640 Yeah, how can I know that's true? 0:18:52.200 --> 0:18:52.639 You can't. 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:58.000 It's my word against your word and every other girl 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.840 that I've ever stolen pictures from. 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:03.280 But she told you that before. 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.119 Hey, And speaking to colleagues around the office, because we've 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.880 all been listening, the consensus is that people don't believe 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.160 her at all. What's your final takeaway? Do you believe her? 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.360 I think there's a lot of things that Natalia says 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:22.040 that are difficult to believe, and I don't necessarily think 0:19:22.080 --> 0:19:26.560 that she has a total control over those things because 0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:29.840 of the various mental health issues that she's wrestling with. 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:32.440 I will wait. 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:35.840 And see whether I get another email a year down 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:38.240 the track or ten years down the track that tells 0:19:38.320 --> 0:19:43.159 me that she's doing it again. I think it'll be 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:45.520 overly bold to think that that is going to be 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:49.960 the case right now, right this minute. I do think, though, 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:53.639 that it's highly likely that she will not be using 0:19:53.920 --> 0:19:58.120 the images that belong to Crystal Jenna, the young New 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:01.679 Zealand woman who's living and see if his paradise in Australia. 0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:06.280 She was the face for many of Natalia's recent false 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.880 personas that she created online. I don't think that Crystal's 0:20:09.880 --> 0:20:12.280 image is going to be used by Natalia again, and 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.640 I think that's because of self preservation. I think that 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:19.040 Natalia will consider Crystal to be too hot to handle 0:20:19.320 --> 0:20:20.000 and leave her be. 0:20:20.560 --> 0:20:24.640 I think something I really struggled with listening to Chasing 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:28.879 Ghosts the Puppeteer is I've got empathy obviously for the 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:32.200 victims and the trauma that they've experienced at the hands 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.879 of Natalia, but also you see the other side as well, 0:20:35.440 --> 0:20:37.919 with Natalia and you, and you kind of I felt 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.040 guilty for empathizing with her. 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.240 I'm wondering how you felt doing this. 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:52.560 I when reporting on these stories, I find that, and 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.760 I've long found this, that my feelings don't come into it, 0:20:57.240 --> 0:21:00.760 and it's possible to box those up and put them 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:05.280 to one side. My obligation is to the audience and 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:10.480 to journalism, and that might sound a bit idealist, but 0:21:10.880 --> 0:21:14.840 I am and I've. 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.400 Got to live up to that responsibility. 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.640 It would be letting down journalism, which I love and 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:25.320 our audience for whom I have a huge amount of 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:30.720 thanks and respect for to inject my personal feelings into. 0:21:30.600 --> 0:21:31.280 Something like this. 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:34.199 Thanks for joining us, David, and you can listen to 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:36.960 Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer. 0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:38.360 Now wherever you get your podcasts. 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.280 That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.760 can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.440 at zat herold dot co dot z. The Front Page 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:55.000 is produced by Ethan Sells with sound engineer Patty Fox. 0:21:55.440 --> 0:21:56.800 I'm Chelsea Daniels. 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.320 Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.680 get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:05.000 behind the headlines.