1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: Kyoda, I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:17,160 Speaker 1: a daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. In 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, ends at Herald journalist David Fisher became aware 4 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 1: that a woman had been caught catfishing dozens of teenage 5 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: boys and young men across New Zealand. Catfishing is a 6 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,240 Speaker 1: term used for people who use stolen photos to pretend 7 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: to be someone else online, usually to form. 8 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 2: Relationships with real people across social media. 9 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: Fisher would go on to expose the woman behind the 10 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: false online accounts as Natalia Burger's. 11 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 2: She referred to herself as the Puppeteer. 12 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: Fisher interviewed her on several occasions before she went to 13 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: jail for charges related to her online activity. He thought 14 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 1: she would have learnt her lesson, but two years ago 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: he received an email from a woman who had her 16 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: photos stolen by Burgess and it was ruining her life. 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: Fisher explored Burgess's actions in the true crime podcast Chasing 18 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: Ghosts the Puppeteer, and he joins us today on the 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: Front Page. 20 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 2: To discuss what he learned. Fish. 21 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:33,120 Speaker 1: When you first reported on Natalia Burgess in twenty eleven, 22 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: did you think you would still be talking about her 23 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: thirteen years later? 24 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 3: Back in twenty eleven, this story, the Facebook predator story, 25 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 3: as it was known at the time, it seemed to 26 00:01:43,800 --> 00:01:46,120 Speaker 3: me that it was going to exist like most stories do, 27 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 3: that it unfolds with in a fairly confined space and 28 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: then becomes consigned to our cultural memory, consigned to history. 29 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 3: It wasn't something that I thought I was going to 30 00:01:57,360 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 3: come back to. Her being sent to president twenty thirteen 31 00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 3: seemed to draw a line under it. And it's perhaps 32 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 3: the naive side of me that I can't scrub out 33 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 3: that thought, Well, she'll learn a lesson and move on 34 00:02:12,240 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 3: with life, and that will be that fish. 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: Can you sum up in your own words what Natalia 36 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: Bird just did back when you first investigated this case 37 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: and when she went to jail. 38 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,399 Speaker 3: So the thing that was striking about this case from 39 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 3: the outset was police had said that they were seeking 40 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 3: or investigating an individual who had catfished or formed online relationships, 41 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 3: was how police phrased it at the time, with around 42 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: forty boys that were out of high school in christ Church, 43 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,399 Speaker 3: and that kind of set the tone for the investigation 44 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,519 Speaker 3: that followed. It seemed most of Natalia's online interactions were 45 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 3: very much focused on teenage boys and forming romantic relationships 46 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 3: with them. 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 4: There was another stream. 48 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: Of style of offending us supposed, which was forming almost 49 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,560 Speaker 3: high school clique girly type groups with others that she 50 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,919 Speaker 3: had encountered on social media. And it was also fascinating 51 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 3: that she created her own clique of half a dozen 52 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 3: false characters that would travel as a pack. So that 53 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,840 Speaker 3: was really the main focus was forming romantic relationships with 54 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:26,640 Speaker 3: teenage boys. 55 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 1: And then you got the email from Crystal Jenner in 56 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:29,959 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. 57 00:03:30,639 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 5: I'm sorry to bother you, but the article you recently 58 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 5: published and the above subject was sent to me by 59 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 5: a friend, as Natalia Burgess has been using my images 60 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 5: since twenty fourteen till current catfish multiple people, both men 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 5: and women. I've had four men and one woman contact 62 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 5: me in the last four months. 63 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: What was your first reaction to learning Entalia was doing 64 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: it all over again. 65 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 3: It was almost deflating, actually, in the sense that I'd 66 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 3: read Crystal's email and I thought, really, is she really 67 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 3: still doing that? We're almost ten years down the track, 68 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 3: or in fact, we were beyond ten years down the 69 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 3: track at that stage, and she seemed to be bagging 70 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 3: the same drum. It was intriguing, but plainly I felt 71 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 3: somewhat deflated. I felt that I was going to be 72 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 3: writing about the same person doing the same thing in 73 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: the same way, and that didn't initially hold a huge appeal. 74 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: You've investigated this case across five episodes of the latest 75 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: Chasing Ghosts season The Puppeteer. You spoke to a number 76 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: of people who had dealings with Natalia, but I understand 77 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: that you contacted many, many more people about this. Why 78 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 1: didn't they want to talk? 79 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,359 Speaker 3: Almost universally from those people that didn't want to come 80 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: forward was the pain that they were left with, the 81 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: trauma that they had experienced as a result of their 82 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 3: interactions with Natalia. And this was part of broadening my 83 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:04,920 Speaker 3: knowledge as well as to the nature of her offending 84 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,920 Speaker 3: because it had shifted since she had come out of prison. 85 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 3: She wasn't targeting teenage boys quite so much, and there 86 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: was also the discovery that there was another pool of 87 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:22,840 Speaker 3: victims that she deliberately and relentlessly targeted, and that was 88 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 3: teenage girls and their mums, who she went on to 89 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: form very long and very meaningful relationships with through her 90 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 3: false characters, and so it had evolved quite a bit 91 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 3: in the nature of the story, and as I spoke 92 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 3: to them, the drawball was plain to see. But the 93 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: thing that really struck me was how deep those relationships 94 00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: have been. The previous encounter with her back in twenty eleven. 95 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 3: The boys that she was forming a relationship with online, 96 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 3: and a lot of them were boys as young as thirteen. 97 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:02,279 Speaker 3: Those relationships might be a matter of months, perhaps six months, 98 00:06:02,440 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 3: even stretched out to a year or so, but when 99 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 3: it came to those more familiar, less romantic relationships, they 100 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 3: would stretch on for years. There was a mom and 101 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: daughter in Australia who feature on the podcast. They've been 102 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 3: involved with Natalia's false character for six years and for 103 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 3: them discovering that the person they thought existed, this character Kaylee, 104 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,440 Speaker 3: was fake, was incredibly painful. 105 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 4: It's so so damaging, really hurtful. 106 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: I thought, well, how can this person do this for 107 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: so long, tending to be someone else? Why would they 108 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: do it? 109 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:47,599 Speaker 3: You know, because it's she treated us like her mom 110 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 3: and her sister, and it's her. 111 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: And annoying that she's done all this for what what 112 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: reason would she get out of doing this? 113 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: So upsets me the most. 114 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 3: You know, and that was a feature with many of 115 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 3: the people that I'd encountered. There was one woman who 116 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 3: had agreed to an interview because her and her son 117 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 3: had been instead by Natalia Goodness fifteen years ago or 118 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 3: more perhaps, and she was initially keen to speak to me, 119 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 3: but when she checked it with her son, it created 120 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 3: a spiral of mood, a downward spiral of mood, and 121 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 3: someone that's now man fifteen years on and was just 122 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 3: too painful, too difficult for him to contemplate his mum 123 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: speaking about it. 124 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: It is incredible to learn about the web that Natalia 125 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,040 Speaker 1: weaved over so long a period, and it's obviously traumatized 126 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people still, even like you said, over 127 00:07:57,080 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: a decade later. 128 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 2: We should take a moment here. 129 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: To specify as well that Burgess herself has her own 130 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: mental health issues in a pretty rough past as well. 131 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, that's correct. 132 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 3: Natalia really went through a very very difficult time as 133 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 3: a girl and a teenager, and as I partly learned 134 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 3: and have discovered much more with this recent round of reporting, 135 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: she has serious mental health issues with which she's wrestling 136 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 3: borderline personality disorder and more recently diagnosed schizophrenia really complicate 137 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 3: the way that she sees the world or the way 138 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: that she interacts with the world. 139 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: How difficult was that in making the series, balancing her 140 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:46,079 Speaker 1: victims stories and Natalia's issues. 141 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 3: I think it was really just about listening to Natalia 142 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 3: and listening to the victims and understanding the direction from 143 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: their respective positions. It would have been very easy to 144 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 3: have listened only to the victims who had such compelling stories, 145 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 3: whose pain was so close to the surface that it 146 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 3: was impossible to miss, to listen only to those victims 147 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: and to be close ed to Natalia. 148 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,479 Speaker 4: But you can't do that. In journalism. 149 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 3: It's all sides of the story there for the investigating, 150 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,280 Speaker 3: and we have an obligation, I think, to approach all 151 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: sides of those stories in the same even handed, empathetic way. 152 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 3: And so the more that was learned about Natalia, and 153 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 3: the better picture that developed of how she saw the 154 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,920 Speaker 3: world and how she interacted with the world, it became 155 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,000 Speaker 3: I think evident as we work through the podcast that 156 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 3: she had a very compelling story to share in terms 157 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 3: of how the offending that she committed came to be. 158 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: It didn't invalidate it doesn't date any of the victim's stories. 159 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 3: Speaking to the offender, and most of all, listening to 160 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 3: an offender when you write about crime stories does not 161 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,439 Speaker 3: invalidate the victims of crime or the stories that they 162 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,600 Speaker 3: have to tell. I think what it does is it 163 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 3: informs our understanding of how that crime happened in the 164 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 3: first place, and one would hope provides our communities at 165 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 3: a wider society the tools that they need to stop 166 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 3: that kind of offending from happening again, or at least 167 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 3: finding a way to deal with it better than we 168 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 3: have before. 169 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 6: I understand that I've hurt people, and I've understand that 170 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 6: I don't have any empathy. I'm sorry, but I don't. 171 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 6: There's one thing I don't have. I had it when 172 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 6: I was young, but then I just stopped caring about people. 173 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: These stories develop over time while you're making them right. 174 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: I understand you explored online safety a bit more in depth, 175 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: and if the laws we have in New Zealand are working, 176 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: what did that safe tell you about the state of 177 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 1: internet safety in our country. 178 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 4: There were some real big picture issues that came into. 179 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 3: Focus through the course of investigating this, and that was 180 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 3: about the environment in which Natalia and the victims of 181 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,719 Speaker 3: her behavior were existing that online environment. I wanted to 182 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 3: get a really good understanding of the state of our 183 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 3: laws in New Zealand and also global perspective of whether 184 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 3: these social media giants were good community citizens. Did their 185 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 3: business help our world function better and help our communities 186 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 3: be better than they were before. And so yes, net 187 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 3: Safe and police and others were interviewed as part of this, 188 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 3: And where we got to was that the introduction of 189 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 3: the Harmful Digital Communications Act in twenty fifteen really provided 190 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: a good pathway in New Zealand for people who had 191 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 3: been on the end of behaviors such as Natalias, to 192 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,280 Speaker 3: raise with authorities the issues that they had and try 193 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 3: and find some sort of a resolution. So net safe 194 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: provides a mediated resolution, Police provide a criminal pathway, and 195 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 3: so those tools are there and they're available for authorities 196 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,680 Speaker 3: to use. They're available for those that have suffered at 197 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 3: the sharp end to take advantage of. What I did 198 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 3: discover is that the problem here is volume and also 199 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 3: I suppose the pyramid of online offending. 200 00:12:49,200 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 4: So when I talk about the pyramid. 201 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: I talked to police over the years, spoken to our 202 00:12:55,480 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 3: intelligence agencies about national security style issues, and at the 203 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 3: top of the pyramid are really big, really complicated issues 204 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: that our enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies are very much 205 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 3: focused on because of the devastating impact they could have 206 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 3: to a wide number of US And so I'm talking 207 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:21,840 Speaker 3: about national security, terrorism type issues, transnational organized crime, the 208 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 3: extraordinary financial crime reporting that my colleague Lane Nichols has 209 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 3: done such. 210 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 4: Remarkable work on. 211 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 3: And when you get down to the bottom of the pyramid, 212 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 3: those things that happen lots, but they happen to individuals. 213 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 3: There's this type of thing that Natali was doing, I mean, 214 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 3: her mode of behavior and what she's doing really as 215 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 3: well out of the box. It'll be hard to find 216 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 3: I think anyone in New Zealand and possibly even wider 217 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 3: afield that has done what she's done at the scale 218 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 3: she's done it for the time she's done it, goodness, 219 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 3: twenty three years. But that volume crime, it's kind of 220 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 3: like burglary if you moved it into the real world, 221 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 3: the sort of crime that happens at a really really 222 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 3: high rate and it affects a very large volume of people, 223 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 3: some of whom will be really badly affected, but broadly 224 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 3: it's an awful invasion and one that people find a 225 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 3: way to incorporate in their life and move on. 226 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: Very very large numbers of victims. 227 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:31,040 Speaker 3: And for police, they have to investigate this investigated the 228 00:14:31,040 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: same way that they would have very serious crime if 229 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 3: they're going to do it to the fullest of their abilities. 230 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 3: It requires large numbers of officers to do canvassing of 231 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 3: the neighborhood. It requires a scene of crime forensic technicians 232 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 3: to dust down and look for fingerprints and other signs. 233 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: It requires police to use an expertise in matching up 234 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 3: with other crimes that are of a similar nature. So 235 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 3: it can be incredibly, incredibly time consuming and it's a 236 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 3: very difficult area for police to perform effectively in because 237 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 3: of the share volume of it. And I think it 238 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 3: sits in the same space, but with it sitting in 239 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 3: the same space, there's a further complication too. And police 240 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 3: acknowledge this that their transition from policing in our physical 241 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:24,239 Speaker 3: world to policing our online world is a work in progress. 242 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 3: Across the nation, we have more than ten thousand police 243 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 3: within the cyber crime or high tech crime unit. There's 244 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 3: two hundred and that's number that's going to have to grow. 245 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 3: Significantly over time, along with building capability so that you 246 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 3: don't get fresh comfortable sitting down at a computer wanting it, 247 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 3: trying to work out how to turn it on. So 248 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 3: you've got this vastly growing volume crime that's happening, not 249 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 3: a huge amount of policing resource that's focused on it, 250 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 3: although that's growing and there's an awareness that it needs 251 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 3: to grow further, and it makes it difficult from a 252 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 3: domestic enforcement perspective to really get a. 253 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:04,480 Speaker 4: Grip on him. 254 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: And you also put cybercrime and these laws to the 255 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 1: relevant ministers. 256 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,600 Speaker 2: Hey, what did they have to say? 257 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: I approached Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith's office and Police Minister 258 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: Mark Mitchell and their response was largely, we're doing things 259 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 3: and look at the things that we're doing, which were 260 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 3: these really big picture stuff, the stuff that's at the 261 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: top of the pyramid. And so that very much has 262 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 3: New Zealand keeping in pace with partner agencies offshore and 263 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 3: when it comes to the top of the pyramid, it 264 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 3: does put us in a better position as far as 265 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 3: information sharing with foreign partners goes, as far as addressing 266 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: those top of the pyramid types of crime, not so 267 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 3: much down the bottom end. 268 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 4: Of the volume crime area, and Mark. 269 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 3: Mitchell did have some acknowledgment that there were changes that 270 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 3: were taking place that did need to and. 271 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 4: Were happening there. 272 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 3: I think perhaps the speed at which those things are 273 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 3: happening is an issue that police should be talking about 274 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 3: and talking with wider communities about. But yeah, it's not 275 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: something that's off the government's radar. But again, it's the 276 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: burglary thing. There's plenty of big, nasty, angry beasts out 277 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 3: there before you start dealing with rats and mice. 278 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: One thing I saw in the Facebook comments on the 279 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:45,439 Speaker 1: stories of Natalia was people think she just must be 280 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: enjoying the attention the series is given her. 281 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: Is that a relevant concern to you? 282 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,679 Speaker 3: Well, I can say that she's not enjoying it. Natalia 283 00:17:54,760 --> 00:18:00,040 Speaker 3: is discomfort with her activities being inquired into again, and 284 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 3: she's made playing to me on a number of occasions, 285 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:05,639 Speaker 3: and there's a number of reasons for that. Some of 286 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 3: that self preservation in terms of concern about what may 287 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: happen to her. She's also deeply concerned about the impact 288 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 3: on her parents that she doesn't want them to see 289 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 3: her in the public sphere having her behavior talked about again. Yeah, 290 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 3: so I do have some concern that people would assume. 291 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 4: That she's getting out of this things that she is not. 292 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 3: And for those that do think that this is all 293 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 3: fun and games for her, it's certainly not the case. 294 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: She told you when you interviewed her again in this 295 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: year for Chasing Ghosts, that she's stopped. 296 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 4: And you're here telling me now that you've. 297 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: Stopped about a year ago. 298 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, how can I know that's true? 299 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 2: You can't. 300 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 6: It's my word against your word and every other girl 301 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 6: that I've ever stolen pictures from. 302 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 2: But she told you that before. 303 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: Hey, And speaking to colleagues around the office, because we've 304 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: all been listening, the consensus is that people don't believe 305 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,160 Speaker 1: her at all. What's your final takeaway? Do you believe her? 306 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,360 Speaker 3: I think there's a lot of things that Natalia says 307 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 3: that are difficult to believe, and I don't necessarily think 308 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 3: that she has a total control over those things because 309 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 3: of the various mental health issues that she's wrestling with. 310 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 4: I will wait. 311 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:35,840 Speaker 3: And see whether I get another email a year down 312 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 3: the track or ten years down the track that tells 313 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 3: me that she's doing it again. I think it'll be 314 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 3: overly bold to think that that is going to be 315 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 3: the case right now, right this minute. I do think, though, 316 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 3: that it's highly likely that she will not be using 317 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:58,120 Speaker 3: the images that belong to Crystal Jenna, the young New 318 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 3: Zealand woman who's living and see if his paradise in Australia. 319 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 3: She was the face for many of Natalia's recent false 320 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 3: personas that she created online. I don't think that Crystal's 321 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 3: image is going to be used by Natalia again, and 322 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 3: I think that's because of self preservation. I think that 323 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 3: Natalia will consider Crystal to be too hot to handle 324 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: and leave her be. 325 00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,640 Speaker 1: I think something I really struggled with listening to Chasing 326 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: Ghosts the Puppeteer is I've got empathy obviously for the 327 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: victims and the trauma that they've experienced at the hands 328 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: of Natalia, but also you see the other side as well, 329 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:37,919 Speaker 1: with Natalia and you, and you kind of I felt 330 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: guilty for empathizing with her. 331 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: I'm wondering how you felt doing this. 332 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 3: I when reporting on these stories, I find that, and 333 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 3: I've long found this, that my feelings don't come into it, 334 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 3: and it's possible to box those up and put them 335 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 3: to one side. My obligation is to the audience and 336 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 3: to journalism, and that might sound a bit idealist, but 337 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 3: I am and I've. 338 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,400 Speaker 4: Got to live up to that responsibility. 339 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 3: It would be letting down journalism, which I love and 340 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: our audience for whom I have a huge amount of 341 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: thanks and respect for to inject my personal feelings into. 342 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 4: Something like this. 343 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,199 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us, David, and you can listen to 344 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer. 345 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 2: Now wherever you get your podcasts. 346 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,280 Speaker 1: That said, for this episode of the Front Page, you 347 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage 348 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: at zat herold dot co dot z. The Front Page 349 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: is produced by Ethan Sells with sound engineer Patty Fox. 350 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 2: I'm Chelsea Daniels. 351 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: Subscribe to The Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you 352 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look 353 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: behind the headlines.