WEBVTT - Maurice Williamson: More is needed for protecting our border 0:00:05.761 --> 0:00:09.681 You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks 'DB. 0:00:10.121 --> 0:00:12.601 They are going to be cracking down on illegal drugs 0:00:12.721 --> 0:00:15.241 entering the country. Well, I mean they're always cracking down 0:00:15.281 --> 0:00:18.001 on it, but anyway, starting with customs. So Customs will 0:00:18.041 --> 0:00:21.201 get an additional thirty five million to help combat the 0:00:21.281 --> 0:00:24.321 rising rate of organized crime groups who are bringing illicit 0:00:24.441 --> 0:00:26.841 drugs into the country, and it'll provide Customs with the 0:00:26.841 --> 0:00:30.561 funding that needs from sixty more roles. Anyway. To discuss that, 0:00:31.281 --> 0:00:36.681 former Customs Minister Morris Williamson is joining us. Good afternoon, 0:00:37.481 --> 0:00:40.481 Good afternoon, Thank you. Thank you for being available a 0:00:40.481 --> 0:00:43.481 little earlier for us. Now you've been in this role before. 0:00:43.881 --> 0:00:47.041 Thirty five million and new funding for Customs. What's your reaction. 0:00:47.161 --> 0:00:47.721 Is it enough? 0:00:49.161 --> 0:00:52.721 It's a good start. It's never enough, because I can 0:00:52.761 --> 0:00:55.481 tell you back during my time as minister, and I 0:00:55.521 --> 0:00:58.161 started in two thousand and eight, so that's what about 0:00:58.521 --> 0:01:02.921 fifteen years ago or so or more, the biggest thing 0:01:02.961 --> 0:01:05.801 across the border then was effordream and pseudo ef adrine, 0:01:05.881 --> 0:01:08.361 So they were the precursors and all of the PA 0:01:08.481 --> 0:01:13.081 was actually being cooked here. And I remember talking to 0:01:13.121 --> 0:01:15.521 my Aussie counterpart minister, And I said, you know, I've 0:01:15.521 --> 0:01:18.281 got this big flood of efadrine and pseudo efadrine pouring 0:01:18.321 --> 0:01:21.441 in from China. And he said what And I said 0:01:21.881 --> 0:01:24.161 efadren and he said, I don't even what you're talking about. 0:01:24.561 --> 0:01:26.521 And I said, it's used to make methan Phedomi said, 0:01:27.321 --> 0:01:30.401 I said, you don't have it. He said no, no, no, no, 0:01:30.441 --> 0:01:33.401 He said, you know, cocaine, heroine and all sorts of 0:01:33.401 --> 0:01:36.121 that huge here at the border. But I don't even 0:01:36.161 --> 0:01:39.841 think we rank it. But it certainly changed over the 0:01:39.881 --> 0:01:42.681 few years. And now what you can't really compare is 0:01:42.721 --> 0:01:45.481 the statistics. I've seen a whole lot of statistics that 0:01:45.561 --> 0:01:49.121 say a huge amount more methan fhetamine is getting over 0:01:49.121 --> 0:01:51.841 the border than it used to. But now I don't 0:01:51.841 --> 0:01:54.561 believe there's any effidrine or pseudo EFFI dreams coming over 0:01:54.601 --> 0:01:58.401 the border. So it's all coming in final product. So 0:01:58.441 --> 0:02:01.201 it's not to say that there's more actually in the marketplace, 0:02:01.241 --> 0:02:04.041 although there clearly is. It's to say that it's now 0:02:04.161 --> 0:02:06.841 all coming as a fire product rather than just the 0:02:07.441 --> 0:02:09.841 pseudoverdreen coming in and then being made into p. 0:02:11.041 --> 0:02:13.601 Yeah, I mean, because I mean it still amazes me 0:02:13.641 --> 0:02:15.281 that we can test the water and find out how 0:02:15.361 --> 0:02:17.401 much the consumption's gone up, which is through the roof. 0:02:17.441 --> 0:02:20.281 Isn't it that the laugh I had from one of 0:02:20.281 --> 0:02:23.361 the officials the other day He said to me that 0:02:24.001 --> 0:02:26.401 we've even been able to detect some urine in the 0:02:26.441 --> 0:02:36.561 water in Queenstown. 0:02:37.081 --> 0:02:39.721 I guess how much of a difference do you think 0:02:39.721 --> 0:02:42.801 this will make this extra money? Because it's one thing 0:02:42.841 --> 0:02:45.161 to spend the money, it's another thing to see the difference. 0:02:45.921 --> 0:02:48.201 Yeah, well, I think it will make a difference because 0:02:48.401 --> 0:02:51.961 you get a real multiplying factor for every additional piece 0:02:52.001 --> 0:02:54.241 of intelligence that you have in the network. You see, 0:02:54.441 --> 0:02:58.441 you don't really make the busts by finding the stuff 0:02:58.481 --> 0:03:01.601 by opening up a box, rummaging through and AlOH wats this? 0:03:02.081 --> 0:03:05.641 You make most of the busts through intelligence. You know, 0:03:05.721 --> 0:03:08.201 stuff about where was the origin of the product that 0:03:08.281 --> 0:03:11.121 it come in a container? Are they? Are they a 0:03:11.201 --> 0:03:16.321 reputable supplier company that's checked everything? And I can tell 0:03:16.361 --> 0:03:19.521 you the vast bulk of what customs are decepted during 0:03:19.561 --> 0:03:21.841 my time as minister, and as minister for about eight years, 0:03:22.281 --> 0:03:23.761 I can tell you the vast bulk of it is 0:03:23.801 --> 0:03:27.001 they had pretty much clues and eyes on the system 0:03:27.441 --> 0:03:29.241 before the stuff even arrived. 0:03:29.881 --> 0:03:32.161 Is the fact that we are so we have custom 0:03:32.241 --> 0:03:35.281 says it's now stopping nearly ninety kilos of meth per week. 0:03:35.281 --> 0:03:37.561 Oh my godness, it's said so much, isn't it anyway? 0:03:38.041 --> 0:03:41.641 Compared for fifty five kilos about ten years ago? 0:03:42.321 --> 0:03:42.561 Yeah? 0:03:42.841 --> 0:03:46.841 Does this suggest that the problem is a lot bigger? 0:03:47.001 --> 0:03:49.081 Or are we just getting better at detecting it all? 0:03:49.481 --> 0:03:51.241 We just correct? Let me just correct your figure because 0:03:51.241 --> 0:03:52.761 I'll show you how much bigger it is. You said 0:03:52.841 --> 0:03:55.441 ninety kilos a week, correct, But what you didn't say 0:03:55.561 --> 0:03:58.041 was for the fifty five in twenty fourteen, was for 0:03:58.081 --> 0:03:59.041 the entire year? 0:03:59.721 --> 0:04:02.721 Oh my goodness. And so oh yes, sorry, sorry I 0:04:02.761 --> 0:04:04.281 missed that word. It's actually in front of me and 0:04:04.321 --> 0:04:05.361 I just misread my notes. 0:04:05.441 --> 0:04:10.001 Yeah, eighty five, So the moltiplying factor is eighty five 0:04:10.201 --> 0:04:13.121 times the level, not not just on double. 0:04:13.681 --> 0:04:16.041 Yeah, thank you for picking me up on that. Well, 0:04:16.081 --> 0:04:18.241 that's obviously a massive, much bigger problem. 0:04:18.361 --> 0:04:22.241 It can't mean's huge, it's massively huge. And the damage 0:04:22.281 --> 0:04:24.881 it's doing, I mean it's breaking families. Some of the 0:04:24.881 --> 0:04:28.241 family violent stats that have gone through the roof you know. 0:04:28.361 --> 0:04:30.921 It's people always used to get stuck into me. Some 0:04:30.961 --> 0:04:33.681 of the more lefty liberals used to say, oh, you know, 0:04:33.681 --> 0:04:35.561 why are you making such a fuss about this stuff. 0:04:35.601 --> 0:04:38.161 You know, it's a it's a victimless crime. It is 0:04:38.201 --> 0:04:41.161 not the damage that it does to our society. When 0:04:41.161 --> 0:04:45.321 this gets in, it wrecks families, It absolutely creates just 0:04:45.721 --> 0:04:49.601 dreadful consequences for our society, and I would love to 0:04:49.641 --> 0:04:52.681 find a way of getting on top of it. When 0:04:52.721 --> 0:04:54.321 I went to the States once, it is another little 0:04:54.321 --> 0:04:58.681 funny story. I sat with their secretary of border security 0:04:58.681 --> 0:05:02.161 and I said to her, where's your biggest inflow of drugs? 0:05:02.201 --> 0:05:04.721 I said, is it by air or by sea? And 0:05:04.801 --> 0:05:08.241 she said, I said it, She said neither. I said 0:05:08.241 --> 0:05:10.801 what she said, it's all ours comes in via land, 0:05:10.841 --> 0:05:12.401 And I went, good God, I hadn't thought of that, 0:05:12.401 --> 0:05:16.201 because we don't have land, so only ours come in 0:05:16.321 --> 0:05:18.601 via the port. The poets of the seaports. But in 0:05:18.601 --> 0:05:21.441 America that what's flying over the border and drones and 0:05:21.881 --> 0:05:25.121 catapult They were even firing catapults, big big catapults with 0:05:25.241 --> 0:05:28.201 bags of drugs, firing them at the border, and there 0:05:28.201 --> 0:05:29.801 were people on the other side waiting for them to 0:05:29.801 --> 0:05:31.801 come flying over stick them in e vents. So this 0:05:31.921 --> 0:05:35.641 is a serious problem, massive amount of money involved. What 0:05:35.721 --> 0:05:38.921 I thought was interesting is how the average prices have dropped. 0:05:39.121 --> 0:05:42.281 It was, in my time, a good sign. That meant, 0:05:42.921 --> 0:05:44.961 you know, that it was we were sorry. It was 0:05:45.041 --> 0:05:46.921 the way round of prices were going up. It meant 0:05:46.921 --> 0:05:49.001 we were getting on top of it. If prices are 0:05:49.041 --> 0:05:52.121 dropping like they are, that suggests there's a real flood 0:05:52.161 --> 0:05:53.201 coming across the border. 0:05:53.721 --> 0:05:57.721 Well that's the thing. Do you think we're just chasing 0:05:57.761 --> 0:06:00.161 our tails? That simply we're having to spend this money 0:06:00.201 --> 0:06:02.521 just to try and make a small densinet. Really you 0:06:02.521 --> 0:06:04.161 actually think this is going to make a real difference. 0:06:05.361 --> 0:06:08.361 I think it'll make a difference. I'd be very reluctant 0:06:08.401 --> 0:06:10.801 to say it'll make a real difference because we're dealing 0:06:10.801 --> 0:06:14.441 with really big organized crime here. We're talking with organizations 0:06:14.441 --> 0:06:18.161 who have funds sometimes bigger than a small country's GDP, 0:06:18.881 --> 0:06:22.281 and they have abilities to do things in the transport 0:06:22.361 --> 0:06:26.161 and other networks where it is really hard. You know, 0:06:26.361 --> 0:06:29.801 there have been things where children's clothing has come through 0:06:29.841 --> 0:06:32.841 all looking absolutely pristine, and then they've suddenly found that 0:06:32.881 --> 0:06:37.161 the clothing was sort of drenched in meth, then waited 0:06:37.161 --> 0:06:39.521 to dry put into the packs. And if you then 0:06:39.841 --> 0:06:42.521 unmelted all after you've put it into a cooker, all 0:06:42.561 --> 0:06:44.561 the meth comes back and you've got a big supply. 0:06:44.681 --> 0:06:46.881 So how do you detect that? You know, sometimes even 0:06:46.921 --> 0:06:51.481 the dogs can't pick it. So it's one of these journeys, 0:06:51.641 --> 0:06:55.441 not a destination. And I'm pleased to congratulate Casey Costello 0:06:55.521 --> 0:06:58.481 for having got some money when times are so tight. 0:06:59.001 --> 0:07:00.441 I mean I used to go to the Minister of 0:07:00.481 --> 0:07:02.521 Finance every now and then for more money for this 0:07:02.681 --> 0:07:05.441 and normally I would always get it because as our 0:07:05.481 --> 0:07:08.241 economy was in a reasonably good shape and positive sort 0:07:08.241 --> 0:07:11.201 of out. So she's got a really difficult balance because 0:07:11.241 --> 0:07:13.401 every minister going, you know, from the Minister of Health 0:07:13.441 --> 0:07:16.121 on down and desperate to get more funding into their balance, 0:07:16.201 --> 0:07:16.881 into their balances. 0:07:17.521 --> 0:07:19.481 I don't know what would you ever have in your 0:07:19.561 --> 0:07:22.721 job formerly as the Minister of Customs, know what the 0:07:22.801 --> 0:07:25.161 cost to the country is of this meth epidemic. 0:07:25.961 --> 0:07:28.481 We used to get what was called the harm Index, 0:07:28.521 --> 0:07:31.841 which basically tried to quantify what it was doing in 0:07:31.961 --> 0:07:36.241 terms of, you know, the serious health consequences, but serious 0:07:36.721 --> 0:07:41.881 dislocations of families and beatings and and shocking, you know, 0:07:42.001 --> 0:07:45.161 breakdown of family units and children not you know, having 0:07:45.201 --> 0:07:47.161 parents live that were in a sort of a mood 0:07:47.201 --> 0:07:48.921 that could even know how to make a sandwich for 0:07:48.961 --> 0:07:51.401 their lunch. Actually now getting into school lunches. 0:07:51.441 --> 0:07:54.921 But we'll be getting we'll be getting if Mark Mitchell 0:07:54.961 --> 0:07:56.801 doesn't front up, we'll be getting into that next time. 0:07:58.921 --> 0:08:00.801 So look, it's one of these things you have got 0:08:00.841 --> 0:08:02.961 no option. You've got no option but to try to 0:08:02.961 --> 0:08:06.081 do it. And the more that you can do with intelligence, 0:08:06.121 --> 0:08:09.281 and I think AI is now starting to faster. Its 0:08:09.321 --> 0:08:12.841 little head has been really useful for if you've given 0:08:12.921 --> 0:08:16.201 fifty thousand million data points, you just look at it. 0:08:16.241 --> 0:08:18.561 So I can't even tell that if AI can do 0:08:18.601 --> 0:08:21.161 a sweepover at several several times, it can have you 0:08:21.161 --> 0:08:23.761 thought about this that coming from there, that container's picked 0:08:23.841 --> 0:08:27.161 up there, there's a common sort of thread here, and 0:08:27.361 --> 0:08:29.961 your intelligence people within customs can say, right, we need 0:08:30.001 --> 0:08:31.841 to have a look at that. And I think that 0:08:31.881 --> 0:08:34.921 will help. But I don't want to be a sort 0:08:34.921 --> 0:08:37.121 of a Johnny Kill the Party sort of guy. But 0:08:37.201 --> 0:08:39.881 I think this stuff is always going to be present 0:08:39.961 --> 0:08:42.041 in it. Well, it's because you make such a profit 0:08:42.041 --> 0:08:45.041 out of it, You make such phenomenal sums of money. 0:08:45.161 --> 0:08:48.241 Well here's the thing. Where else do we need to 0:08:48.281 --> 0:08:53.521 move legislatively too? Because are we a soft touch New Zealand? 0:08:53.721 --> 0:08:56.601 Do we need to have some more stringent sort of 0:08:56.641 --> 0:08:59.401 measures and punishments for people dealing on this stuff? 0:09:00.041 --> 0:09:02.161 Well, we do need to look at that. Always. There 0:09:02.201 --> 0:09:04.321 are multitude multi factors that you're going to look at. 0:09:04.321 --> 0:09:05.801 One of the things that I always thought was a 0:09:05.801 --> 0:09:08.361 bit sort of blood curdling was we were catching mules 0:09:08.721 --> 0:09:12.961 coming in from China, very young, sometimes even university students 0:09:13.001 --> 0:09:15.961 who were told you can pay for your entire university 0:09:16.041 --> 0:09:19.441 education five thousand times over if you have a pack 0:09:19.521 --> 0:09:22.921 of this in your luggage. And those who got through 0:09:23.001 --> 0:09:24.921 could never believe how much money they had for the 0:09:24.921 --> 0:09:27.561 rest of their life. But the ones that didn't get through, 0:09:27.961 --> 0:09:31.681 we put in jail for a reasonably short period of time. 0:09:32.361 --> 0:09:35.481 They lived in better quality digs than they lived in 0:09:35.561 --> 0:09:38.281 back home in the slums, and they got better food 0:09:38.321 --> 0:09:40.601 than they had, and then finally we put them on 0:09:40.641 --> 0:09:43.121 an aeroplane at our expense to take them home. So 0:09:43.561 --> 0:09:46.041 if you think about the consequences they are not that. 0:09:46.441 --> 0:09:48.441 I don't know how much that's changed. But I always 0:09:48.521 --> 0:09:50.841 used to say, in fact, if I was a young 0:09:50.921 --> 0:09:53.721 kid from the slums and had no future whatsoever, this 0:09:53.761 --> 0:09:57.521 would look terribly attractive. So there has to be some 0:09:57.641 --> 0:10:00.401 legislative change. The penalties do have to be realistic so 0:10:00.441 --> 0:10:03.201 that they try to deter people from doing it. But 0:10:03.361 --> 0:10:07.801 we had stuff magnetically stuck to the hull of ships. 0:10:07.801 --> 0:10:09.521 We had to die. I went down with the divers 0:10:09.521 --> 0:10:11.561 one night and they were diving on the base of 0:10:11.561 --> 0:10:13.321 a ship and they found some big sort of like 0:10:13.401 --> 0:10:16.041 limpid mind stuck against it. When they pulled them off, 0:10:16.921 --> 0:10:20.081 the pea was all stuck in them. It's just the reason, 0:10:20.081 --> 0:10:22.241 it's all it's going to be there is. It's just 0:10:22.721 --> 0:10:25.401 you don't make thousands of dollars, you don't make millions. 0:10:25.601 --> 0:10:29.601 You make tens of millions by being in this trade. 0:10:29.721 --> 0:10:32.201 And I just hope that we just keep on keeping 0:10:32.241 --> 0:10:35.201 on and good on to Casey Costello, and hopefully the 0:10:35.241 --> 0:10:37.521 Ministry of Finance will always keep giving of the funding 0:10:37.561 --> 0:10:38.281 that's necessary. 0:10:38.401 --> 0:10:40.881 Excellent, Hey, Maris, I really appreciate your time this afternoon 0:10:41.921 --> 0:10:42.761 into the rest of the day. 0:10:43.321 --> 0:10:46.081 For more from the Weekend Collective, listen live to News 0:10:46.121 --> 0:10:49.801 Talk ZB weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast 0:10:49.841 --> 0:10:50.801 on iHeartRadio.