1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Let's dip in, dip our toe into one two seven 2 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: b gait. The interweb is wa washed currently with people 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,639 Speaker 1: writing to me telling me Erica Stamford is the wocist 4 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: minister in the government and under the cover of Dartan 5 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: she is snuck into legislation currently before select Committee, a 6 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: committee to the commitment to the Treaty that entrenches it 7 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: in a way we should all be alarmed about. And 8 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: Erica Stamford is of course the Minister of Education and 9 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: is with us. 10 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: Good morning, Good morning, Mike, how I. 11 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: I'm well indeed, you say, what have you seen these emails? 12 00:00:28,960 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: By the way, and this has become a thing this week? 13 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: Well, of course I have, Mike. I mean, this is 14 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 2: what happens when you get a bunch of people who 15 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: get all whipped up with hatred and frothing at the 16 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,519 Speaker 2: mouth and spouting complete and utter garbage lies. Guess what 17 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 2: happens to politicians, you know, I get sent emails and 18 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,559 Speaker 2: messages and all sorts of things telling me how what 19 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:52,840 Speaker 2: an awful person I am, but all based on complete 20 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 2: and utter rubbish, complete lies. There is not a single 21 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 2: thing that said that has got an ounce of truth 22 00:00:58,120 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 2: to it. 23 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 3: Represents the public on their behalf right. 24 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: It represents one of the boldest attempts yet to entrench 25 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: co governance and identity politics in the classroom. 26 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 3: True or not, No. 27 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: Is trio muri being made compulsory in the classroom. No 28 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 2: is co governance being entrenched in the education system. No. 29 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 2: Did I put a treaty waiting a clause in section 30 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 2: one two seven. No, none of those things are correct 31 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:28,399 Speaker 2: at all. There was an existing clause. And when we 32 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,559 Speaker 2: went through the process there were some legitimate questions raised 33 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 2: about whether or not there should be a treaty clause 34 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 2: for boards of trustees, and as it is their job, 35 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 2: legitimate questions and I agree they are legitimate questions. And 36 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 2: so now this whole piece of work has been included 37 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 2: in the work that Paul Goldsmith is doing with his 38 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:47,199 Speaker 2: review of treaty clauses, not only in the Education Act, 39 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 2: but in lots of pieces of legislation. So they're all 40 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 2: up in arms about absolutely nothing. 41 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: Right, let me read you this section one two seven 42 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: gives effect to relevant student rights set out in the 43 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: SAC the New Zealand Bill of Bright Tech nineteen ninety 44 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: and Human Rights Act nineteen ninety three. When students are 45 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: made to sing Maori prayers, being made to sing curricus 46 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: currica gives no consideration of the person's own culture or religion, 47 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: massively offensive. Why is this forced on students? That violates 48 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: their Section thirteen right to freedom of thought, conscience, religion, 49 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,600 Speaker 1: and belief, including the right to adopt and hold opinions 50 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: without reference. Is any of that true? 51 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: Schools may well be doing that, And that's why I've 52 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: said it's a very legitimate question as to whether or 53 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: not there should be a treaty clause in what boards 54 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:33,560 Speaker 2: have to do in their obligations. But by the way 55 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: these treaty clauses are throughout the Education Act. You take 56 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 2: it out of one two seven, fine, and it's a 57 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 2: legitimate question as to whether or not it should be there. 58 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 2: They exist all over the place. You take it out 59 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: of there, it exists somewhere else. That's why we need 60 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: to have a proper, thorough review of all of these clauses, 61 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: where they sit, what is the purpose, and what are 62 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:56,800 Speaker 2: they leading to. Now You've also got to remember schools 63 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,520 Speaker 2: are independent agencies. They have all like little mini crown entities. 64 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: They make their own decisions about what they do. Does 65 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 2: section one two seven have any bearing on that. Maybe 66 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: maybe not. As I say, legitimate question, and we're going 67 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: to look at it. We are currently looking at. 68 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 3: It right, but in looking at it with a view 69 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 3: to do what. 70 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 2: Well exactly what you've just said. There are legitimate questions 71 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 2: around whether or not a board should be involved in 72 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 2: deciding whether or not my mattrang Amari and Treo Marii 73 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: and TiO Marii should be included in the curriculum. Those 74 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 2: are legitimate questions that should be answered. But it's not 75 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: only in that section. It's in section four, section six, 76 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 2: section thirty two. Like I could name you a dozen 77 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: clauses that it's currently in. 78 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, seven, I mean, to the extent the people who 79 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: write and have whipped this up, it is correct to 80 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 1: say it is in there, and therefore the outworking of 81 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: that means that some of the stuff that they're talking 82 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: about does, in fact and can happen. 83 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: Therefore they are correct. 84 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: Well, hold on a minute, likely probably happen at those schools. 85 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 2: Regardless of section one to seven. The more important thing is, yes, 86 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 2: it's there. I didn't put it there that claiming it's 87 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 2: been there for a very long time. Should it be 88 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 2: looked at. Are there legitimate questions, yes, which is why 89 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 2: we're looking at it. But like I say, it's in 90 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 2: many other places, and schools will use those other places 91 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,960 Speaker 2: to legitimize their use of cut of care if they 92 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 2: should wish to. So it needs a proper, thorough, careful 93 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 2: look at to work out what are the what is 94 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 2: the purpose of the treaty in education? Does it have 95 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 2: a place, where should it sit? Who has responsibility for it? 96 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: Not just chest thumping about one little part in section 97 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 2: one to seven to make ourselves all feel good when 98 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:44,840 Speaker 2: actually it won't make a blind bit of difference. When 99 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: what we should be worried about is student outcomes, which. 100 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: Is yeah, this is where we get into the difficult part. 101 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: I think this is probably in its own way misguided 102 00:04:53,279 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: or not. What drives this, and what drives it is 103 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: we want some attendance, and we want some past marks, 104 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: and we want some kids getting graduating with actual qualifications, 105 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 1: when what we appear to be doing is spending a 106 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of time down in this particular rabbit hole 107 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: on schools who fixate on aspects of life that many 108 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: would argue are not productive or conducive to a better 109 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: tomorrow and a brighter future. 110 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 2: Well that's what I'm focused on, a better tomorrow, a 111 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 2: brighter future with our massive reform program and our day 112 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: of reading and writing a Math's a complete overhaul of 113 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:26,599 Speaker 2: the curriculum to make it knowledge rich year by year, 114 00:05:26,600 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: internationally comparable training tens of thousands of teachers, and structured literacy, 115 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: structured maths setting out eight hundred and thirty thousand maths. 116 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:34,000 Speaker 3: Books this year. 117 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: We are up to our eyeballs and making sure that 118 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: kids who turn up to school getting the very best education. 119 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: This is a side show. All the work I've been 120 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 2: doing is to make sure that kids are achieving at 121 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: school and they're turning up to school. That's the important thing. 122 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 2: All this Hobson's Pledge stuff is a bunch of people 123 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 2: yelling at the sky and frothing at the mouth with hatred, 124 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: where it's actually not going to make a blind bit 125 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 2: of difference to student outcomes. Because the work that I'm doing, 126 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 2: that's the stuff that matters. Structured literacy, structure maths with 127 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: knowledge rich curriculum, that's the stuff that matters. 128 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: Is there too much MARI in schools. 129 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 2: Depends which school you go to, Mike. If you're a 130 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 2: school on the East Coast with ninety percent Mary students 131 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 2: and they want to speak today as part of their curriculum, 132 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:23,800 Speaker 2: that's very different than another school who might have a 133 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: couple of Mary students who wants to be able to 134 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 2: teach their children to say everyday words in Mari so 135 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,720 Speaker 2: that you can live your life and understand words like 136 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 2: KaiA and muana and faro and stuff and how to 137 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: pronounce them correctly. It depends. I mean, would you say 138 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 2: to a school in Auckland with two Marty students compared 139 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,799 Speaker 2: to a school in the East Coast with eighty percent 140 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 2: Marty students, you must all do the same. 141 00:06:45,760 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: Of course not probably not right. But I can tell you, 142 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 1: at the risk of going down a rabbit hole again, 143 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: I know a commerce exam that was held the other 144 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: day at University that commerce that asked a Maori question. 145 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: It's got nothing to do with commerce. But there's a leaning, 146 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:04,279 Speaker 1: there's a bent, there's an overt practice towards mardom or 147 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: the moarification of New Zealand and education. Whether it seems 148 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:08,840 Speaker 1: applicable or obvious or not. 149 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 2: It's everywhere, Mike. You go on a bus at the 150 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: moment and the thing you see signs in Tamata. You 151 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: go to a supermarket your will the other day and 152 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: the signs are bilingual signs. It's happening everywhere. So it's 153 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: not blame the education not. 154 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: Blaming the education system, but there is a frissons in 155 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: this country as a result, and you give very good 156 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:30,960 Speaker 1: examples as I and a lot of that costs money, 157 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: and a lot of that cost money that we're spending. 158 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: And it's a it's a thing. It's become. You know, 159 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: it's the thing of the day, and a lot of 160 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: people are questioning whether we've gone too far. 161 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: I don't know about that. The thing of the day 162 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 2: is reading, writing a mass in our brand new curriculum. 163 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: You go to any school right now what I want 164 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 2: them to be focused on and what they are and look, 165 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 2: it's a lot. I've asked them to implement two new 166 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: curricula in one year, and I know it's a huge amount. 167 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: Those teachers right now are unpacking a massively knowledge rich 168 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 2: English and maths curriculum that we've not seen in this 169 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 2: country for decades, and they're trying to make sure they're 170 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 2: getting on top of it and teaching their kids in 171 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: a structured, explicit way. That's what they're focusing on to 172 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: go into any classroom. They've all got their maths books 173 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: that we have provided out, their structured literacy books that 174 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 2: they're doing their hour a day. I mean, we are 175 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 2: undertaking the biggest reform and education worried about what matters 176 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 2: for student outcomes and this other stuff is Look, I 177 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: get it's important, and we are looking at it, and 178 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: there are legitimate questions to be asked but actually answered. 179 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: But actually what matters is the. 180 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 3: That's a shame. For more from the Mic Asking Breakfast. 181 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: Listen live to news talks they'd be from six am weekdays, 182 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio